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To:        [e-mail]
Subject:   zorn-list Digest V2 #35
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Precedence:


zorn-list Digest         Saturday, 23 November 1996     Volume 02 : Number 035

In this issue:

    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #33
    drum'n'bass
    Re: H30
    Re: H30
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    Re: Baron's ear protection
    Re: H30
    questions
    Re: newbie w/ questions
    d 'n b / minimalism
    Re: newbie w/ questions
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    re: d 'n b / minimalism
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    a few comments on recent list-events
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:43:14 +0200 (GMT+0200)
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

> Then, Lang wrote:
>=20
> >>******  This raises an interesting point about Minimalism:  can you lik=
e
> >>Philip Glass and not like jungle/techno?   Does it matter?  For me, one=
 of
> >>the problems with techno is that--as Steve says--it's just set in motio=
n and
> >>runs along (one reason so much techno/jungle sounds completely
> >>interchangable). =20

Ermm, I don=ABt quite follow you here... Techno and jungle sounding=20
interchangable? I assume you ment that it=ABs difficult to tell one track=
=20
from another (I don=ABt agree with you, but that=ABs not the point of tis=
=20
thread... :) as jungle/d=ABn=ABb and techno really don=ABt sound alike: the=
y=20
use different rhythms, sounds and mostly different sample material in=20
general. Period.

But to the point: I don=ABt really agree with you in the jungle equals=20
minimalism thing, as to me jungle is one of the most complex and detailed=
=20
musicforms to emerge lately. I mean, in some of the best d=ABn=ABb (to me t=
hat=ABs=20
Photek, Squarepusher, u-ziq, Plug,...) almost nothing is repeated=20
exactly. If you listen carefully, you see that the short rhythm loops are=
=20
always changing, new sounds emerge and disappear, filters open and close,=
=20
samples stutter. Some songs have so much going on, drum-vise usually,=20
that it=ABs hard to tell there =ABone=AB is. Great dance music, eh... Okay,=
 so=20
some of the jungle stuff (even from the ones I mentioned) is more=20
repetitive, but still it IMHO differs from techno (where the rhythm=20
stays generally the same, but changing of sounds generates the musical=20
content...) and minimalism. Actually, to me jungle is closer to=20
maximalism in terms of =ABinformation overload=AB and =ABshort attention sp=
an=AB=20
way (what I dig, I drink too much coffee :)=20

Okay, that=ABs my two pennies...


 teemu


- -------------
e-mail: [e-mail]           "There was coffee. Life would go on."
Ruumen homepage:                      William Gibson:'The Winter Market'
http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html


------------------------------

From: Dan Shearon <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:30:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #33

actually, im gald to hear
that wasnt jz that blew me off
though, i must admit, i wouldnt know him if i saw him

daniel the mistaken



------------------------------

From: Michael Wittmann <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:01:34 -0500
Subject: drum'n'bass

As a lurker on the digest form of the list, I don't often add my two
cents more than once every 6 months, but I thought I would add a word or
two here. I've been a radio DJ for about 8 years now, and my shows have
covered just about the entire map of music (I got into JZ through a
skewed sense of jazz, fascination with death metal, love of 60's Trane,
sadness at the demise of the late 80's Wax Trax sound, and hilarious
laughter at the Mancini takes on Naked City.... no, it doesn't make
sense). Right now I've got a world beat/international show with an
emphasis on Latino music and Afropop. Anyway, on the new Red Hot and Rio
album (proceeds to AIDS research, as Red Hot always does....), there's
an excellent example of what influence drum'n'bass can have on previous
music. Everything but the Girl took the Stan Getz/Joao Gilberto/Astrud
Gilberto tune "Corcovado," kept it silky and sexy, and threw drum'n'bass
on top in a totally organic and logical way. The tune kicks ass: you
_can_ listen to it in the comfort of your home, and you can dance to it,
too.

So there. (grin) Let's hear it for eclectic music tastes, varied club
experiences, and the money to enjoy it all....

Have a nice day, everyone. (By the way, I've enjoyed the bizarre twists
of recent threads, what with ear plugs, minimalism (I'm a Glass fan),
electronica, and all. Thanks to all involved!)
- --
+-------------------------+--------------------+
| Michael Wittmann        |  Physics Education |
| Physics Department      |     Research Group |
| University of Maryland  |  tel: [phone] |
| College Park, MD 20742  |  Physics room 0220 |
| http://www.physics.umd.edu/rgroups/ripe/mcw/ |
+----------------------------------------------+
find world beat music reviews at
http://www.physics.umd.edu/rgroups/ripe/mcw/reviews.htm

------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Marc Kate)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:03:34 -0800
Subject: Re: H30

Hey.

It actually wasn't a collaboration with Greenaway.  It actually sounds like
Greenaway found himself above the project somehow.  (I'm currently
interviewing Andrew McKenzie/H3O for my zine.)

Next find Kill the King.  It's fabulous.
happy listening.
Marc.


>I recently picked up my first album by the Hafler Trio (or H30, as I'm
>told the fans call them). I'm a big fan of director Peter Greenaway and
>saw their "collaborative" album, so I couldn't resist. Really liked it
>alot. Real noisy and monotonous, but with an odd sense of humor. (I
>suppose one could describe Peter G's films the same way, though.) Does
>anyone have any recommendations where to go with them? What's the best
>stuff to start with?

      ~               :      .         =A8
          ,   '  Marc Kate       ~         ,   .
=B0        .        :         '    .           ~          =B0
     ,            ,  [e-mail]        .        ,
        .      ,           '         ~      .   ~



------------------------------

From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:38:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: H30

> I recently picked up my first album by the Hafler Trio (or H30, as I'm
> told the fans call them). I'm a big fan of director Peter Greenaway and
> saw their "collaborative" album, so I couldn't resist. Really liked it
> alot. Real noisy and monotonous, but with an odd sense of humor. (I
> suppose one could describe Peter G's films the same way, though.) Does
> anyone have any recommendations where to go with them? What's the best
> stuff to start with?

I think their ep 'Masturbatorium' is one of the best pieces of this genre
of sound.  It's only 17 minutes and kind of expensive, though, so you may
want to buy the album 'kill the king' which has masturbatorium as part of
it, although i think it may be a different version (kill the king is live,
i think). Although i haven't heard kill the king, every one assures me
it's increadible.

'Mastery of Money' is also very good.  Be sure to hear it on a really good
stereo, because there is a lot of very low frequency things going on.

- -jascha





------------------------------

From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:01:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

>
> My personal "electronica" favorites:
>
> The aforementioned K+D record
> Red Snapper-Reeled and Skinned (acid jazz with a sax player with legit chops)
> Mouse On Mars-Ioara Tahiti
> Thomas Koner-Anything, especially Permafrost
> Lull, Final, Main-Anything (great to fall asleep to)
> Pablo's Eye-You Love Chinese Food
> Earthling-Radar

I'd add:

Autechre - anything
John Oswald - anything ('discosphere' and 'plunderphnics' are very good,
although very different)

and i'd definitly agree with the recomendations for Thomas Koner and Main.
Consistently increadible all the time.  Wow.
- -jascha



------------------------------

From: "R. Lynn Rardin" <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:38:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Baron's ear protection

Someone wrote (sorry, lost the last reference)

>On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 96-11-20 17:28:24 EST, [e-mail] (DANIEL
>> BITTON) writes:
>>
>> > When you fuck up your ears, they get very sensitive, also drums are jsut
>> >  always too fucking loud if your sitting at them for two hours even if it
>> >  sounds like nothing from the audience.

Most definitely.  I honestly don't know how musicians and especially
drummers take playing/practicing all the time without some form of ear
protection.

>> But have you ever heard Masada live?  Joey doesnt play that loud.

When compared to most drummers in other situations, I'd agree that Joey
doesn't play that loud.  But we were in the front row at one of the Boston
shows and the music definitely got loud enough that I wished I had my
earplugs a couple times.

>> I mean,
>> gun muffs??  And they were playing on the floor at the Knit, with the
>> audience three feet in front of the band.  I dont think his ears are messed
>> up, he probably has great hearing and doesnt want to endanger it.  Which is
>> very smart, but I really doubt he could have heard some of the quieter, more
>> delicate passages played by Douglas.
>
>I've seen them live twice, and he doesn't go loud compared to a rock band
>or anything, but when you're a musician and you have tinnitus your ears
>get pretty sensitive and it can be jarring to tolerate drums at all,
>especially for 2 hrs.

Exactly.  These guys play a lot every day and repetitive exposure to even
not so loud "noise" does damage to your hearing over time.

>Some guys get pain in their ears from only 10
>decibles. He's probably got sensitive ears, even if they're not very
>messed up.  Gun muffs aren't necessarily super quiet, there's different
>kinds, and those look silly but their really good for giving you a good
>quality of sound,

Now this surprises me.  Are gun muffs really designed to give "good quality
of sound"?  Or is it just a coincidence?  At the Boston shows, Joey was
wearing what looked like serious earplugs--the type you haved an
audiologist make for you for a couple hundred bucks.  Plugs like this
are specially designed to give an even attenuation over the range of
frequencies useful to humans.

>    Then again, maybe he's just wearing them in case he has to pull
>out his AK-47 or his GAT to knock off some nasty patrons or relative who
>may show up.

Now there's a thought! :^)

- -Lynn ([e-mail])

------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (david m rothbaum)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:53:20 -0700
Subject: Re: H30

>> I recently picked up my first album by the Hafler Trio (or H30, as I'm
>> told the fans call them). I'm a big fan of director Peter Greenaway and
>> saw their "collaborative" album, so I couldn't resist. Really liked it
>> alot. Real noisy and monotonous, but with an odd sense of humor. (I
>> suppose one could describe Peter G's films the same way, though.) Does
>> anyone have any recommendations where to go with them? What's the best
>> stuff to start with?

i happen to think thier album Fuck is wonderfull as well.



------------------------------

From: slawlor <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:57:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: questions

Hi there.  What piece of Zorn music would you say is the fastest moving
in terms of it's constantly changing themes?  Does he have any other
compositions out that are as lengthy or longer than Spilain?
Also, I've heard about these film music albums.  The title makes me think
of sound track recordings?  Is this what these are, or are they totally
different from sound track albums which usually have very short pieces?
One more question, for now anyway.  Doesn't John zorn have a classical
background in terms of formal training, and how did he initally break
into the music sceen?  Thanks for the information.

scott K. Lawlor
3358 Prange Dr.
Cuyahoga Falls, OH. 44223
Phone, 330-922-4895
http://w3.gwis.com/~slawlor


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:50:15 -0500
Subject: Re: newbie w/ questions

In a message dated 96-11-21 13:31:56 EST, [e-mail] (Dan
Shearon) writes:

>
>  p.s. why cant i find blood ulmer's america albums?

  Many have just recently been reissued on cd, like Black Rock, Freelancing,
Odyssey, and Tales of Captain Black.  I got the Japanese pressings, but now I
think Columbia is reissuing them domestically.

Also, i highly recommend "South Delta Space Age" by Third Rail, which is
Blood, Bill Laswell, Ziggy Modeliste, and Bernie Worrell.

------------------------------

From: Leon Lee/SYBASE <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 96 14:57:40 EDT
Subject: d 'n b / minimalism

Fritz Feger wrote:
So I personally conclude that jungle can be music only to listen to, but
that the repetitious characteristic predestinates it to be dancefloor music
too. Whereas I've never liked any kind of techno (don't know why since I do
like Glass and Co.), I enjoy jungle even without anything happening but
repetitions. And I find it rather inspiring as carpet for improvisations,
because it brings a completely new feeling. It's a new voice in the choir,
and I welcome it.

ugh, here's my 2 cents worth: the first time i heard a drum 'n bass track, i
was blown away.  it was like listening to rasheed (oops, sp?) ali on
'interstellar space' with coltrane's tracks muted out.  i went and bought the
first jungle comp. i could find for cheap and listened to it on a roadtrip.
for the first few tracks, i was pumped up but it got old really fast.  but
still, i was enchanted by the syncopated drum programming, tweeked out sounds
and the thumping bass and knew there was better stuff out there somewhere.
soon, i started to hear a lot of cool stuff like plug, wagon christ remixes, dj
krush remixes, some photek 12" and even the palmskin productions track 'spock
with a beard' on a 'acid jazz' comp.  and what put me over the top was listening
 to it on headphones.  it *was* the shit.  then i moved to s.f. and started to
go to some d 'n b weeklies and was pretty happy.  the dancefloor was full of
wigglers and jigglers of all sorts and the music was loud on a lo-fi sound
system.  i'd hate to use the word but it was dope.  the shifting and
oscillating elements as well as the repetitious ones was what made the music
for me.  the rivetted ride and snare provided a swirling backdrop to the steady
bass loops and in between all that, my body convulsed to the pulse, my feet
stomped around and my head scrambled tomstitc hat tifying with improv  .

------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:39:59 -0800
Subject: Re: newbie w/ questions

At 05:50 PM 11/22/96 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-21 13:31:56 EST, [e-mail] (Dan
>Shearon) writes:
>
>>
>>  p.s. why cant i find blood ulmer's america albums?
>
>  Many have just recently been reissued on cd, like Black Rock, Freelancing,
>Odyssey, and Tales of Captain Black.  I got the Japanese pressings, but now I
>think Columbia is reissuing them domestically.
>
>Also, i highly recommend "South Delta Space Age" by Third Rail, which is
>Blood, Bill Laswell, Ziggy Modeliste, and Bernie Worrell.
>

And Amina Claudine Myers.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:39:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

>On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 [e-mail] wrote:
>
>>   For me, one of
>> the problems with techno is that--as Steve says--it's just set in motion and
>> runs along (one reason so much techno/jungle sounds completely
>> interchangable).
>
>Two points here: First, keep in mind that dance records are often oriented
>primarily towards the dance floor (shockingly enough).  In that context,
>they don't just run along, because they're being continually mixed/segued/
>whatever it is DJs do.  In fact, you might say they're used as instruments
>for extended (usually solo) improvisations.  I'll reiterate that those of
>you who are interested in acquiring a taste for d'n'b might consider
>checking it out at a club.  Even in that context, it doesn't have to
>function as an "accessory" (to use Steve Smith's term) to another
>activity.  Try just standing against the wall and listening.
>
True, but I have to admit that the drum 'n' bass things I like the most are
not the purist club mixes, but things done by people outside of the core of
the d'n'b scene adapting the style into their own. For example, I really
like the Laswell Oscillations record. It seems like this was done not to be
played in a club, but as a listening experience in its own right. The mixes
on this record have the continually evolving and improvisational feel that
a live DJ mix probably would. Another piece I like a lot is DJ
SoulSlinger's "Abducted", on the Necropolis project compilation by DJ
Spooky.

A friend recommended LTJ Bukem's Logical Progression as an example of
experimental d'n'b, and given its textural severity and the harmonic
ambiguity of most of the pieces, I can see how it would be considered
innovative compared to most other club music, but it seems pretty tame in a
larger context.

I haven't yet heard Tetragrammotron (is this being widely distributed yet?)
or squarepusher.

I think that there's an interesting connection between, something I have
yet to hear explored, between the way that the drumloops evolve in d'n'b,
and the way a jazz drummer would track with a soloist. Although I hear that
the Derek Bailey record is not particularly great, I think this concept
bears exploration.

>
>Hey, I resemble that remark (both of 'em, oddly enough).  Seriously, I do
>think that "new electronica", or whatever we're calling it this week,
>provides an interesting complement to improv.  It's pure composition.  It
>can be written by a single musician directly onto tape, and once it's been
>written, there's no human element to be oppressed.
>
Yeah, but I wonder if there isn't an element of improvisation in the way at
least some of the electronic composers work. I could imagine that some of
the final mixes are "improvised" live, even though all the source materials
are sequenced or sampled

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]
self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/
"A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast
and bulbous, got me?"
                                     -Captain Beefheart
________________________________________________________



------------------------------

From: Leon Lee/SYBASE <[e-mail]>
Date: 22 Nov 96 16:45:54 EDT
Subject: re: d 'n b / minimalism

somehow my posting message was sent without finishing it... yeah i look stupid
(feel stupid) but here's the tail of my 2 cents:

d 'n b is a refreshing and welcomed addition to the world of
electronic/intelligent dance music.  if you can't make it to a club, try
headphones (it'll warp ya).  there is good stuff and plenty of bad stuff (in
any 'style'' of music) so don't write it off if you happen to not like what
you've listened to.  if you do, you are narrowing the spectrum of progressive
musical styles and limiting your own perspective of music.  and if you really
don't like it, at least you tried which is more than i can say (b/c i do not
like country but i haven't really tried and don't have a will to).  obviously,
there is all this d 'n b talk b/c we're interested in the current develoments
of music and are willing to take the time to explore new territories as is
Derek Bailey, B.Laswell etc.  So enough preaching.  Checkout 'intelligent dance
music' (idm mailing list) if you want to find out about some of the heaviest
dance music around ([e-mail] w/ message: sub idm) and maybe you
can be pointed to something that may appeal to your particular sensibilities.
as for my recommends in the d 'n b vein:
transonic's track  'extinguisher' on bill laswell's oscillations (the rest of
the album is so so but Musso's track is good)
funky porcini 12" (i don't remember what it's called but it has a squarepusher
remix that's pretty over-the-top)
wagon christ (remixes) on instinct u.s.a. w/ aphex twin remix
aphex twin - 12" hangable autobulb 1 &2
third eye foundation - 12" (hardcore scariness)
ben neill 12" remixed by dj spooky, dj soulslinger etc on antilles (cheap) -
for a more ambient approach to d 'n b
and last but not least, coldcut's mix cd 'journeys' - a wide variety of break
beat/ d 'n b tracks in a 70 min. mix (on jdj records).

again, sorry about the dribbling of my last post (i'm not sure if it even was
sent but it sure wasn't on my machine when it crashed)
*also, for you'all minimalist enthusiasts.  have you checked out the philip
glass/aphex twin ep 'donkey rhubarb' - quite interesting.

leon

on now: robert dick - third stone from the sun

------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:29:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

At 04:39 PM 11/22/96 -0800, Dave Trenkel wrote:

>I haven't yet heard Tetragrammotron (is this being widely distributed yet?)

No.  It looks like Caroline will be handling the distribution, but it will
not be out there until after Christmas.  For now, it can be obtained from
Downtown Music Gallery in NYC (212-473-0043) and they do mail order.

Valis II will be out on the same label, probably at the same time that
_Tetragrammaton_ appears in the stores, and will probably be of interest to
at least some of the people on this list.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Landon Thorpe)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 22:28:56 -0500
Subject: a few comments on recent list-events

star leigh wall wrote:

>John Zorn? On tour with Mr. Bungle? If you're referring to any of the
>musicians that played in the band, I can assure you it wasn't John Zorn.
>Zorn has not performed with Mr. Bungle at any shows on the Disco Volante
>tour (nor in the past to my knowledge).

Er, is this correct? I think I remember postings to this list noting at
least a couple of SF Bungle shows with Zorn. And I believe Zorn goes
uncredited on the Mr. Bungle debut, playing on "Love is a Fist" (am I
right?). Don't want to pick nits, just want to see if I'm remembering
correctly.

On another note, I'm glad to see the intelligent discussion concerning
techno/ambient/dnb. I find these postings to be quite enjoyable and
informative (like most of the postings on this list). I recently became a
subscriber to the intelligent dance music and ambient lists, and,
unfortunately, while the postings are in the same category as the
aforementioned, I find them (all 100K per day or so) to be, on the whole,
less "quality dense". Oh well.

Last thing: Jeff and Patrice, do we really want such needling by two of our
most well-listened list-denizens?

Thanks,

LP Thorpe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The past cannot remember the past. The future can't generate the future.
The cutting edge of this instant right here and now is always nothing less
than the totality of everything there is." -- Robert M Pirsig




------------------------------

From: Marcus Klein <[e-mail]>
Date: 23 Nov 96 11:52:19 EST
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

>>>I haven't yet heard Tetragrammotron (is this being widely
>>distributed yet?)

>>No.  It looks like Caroline will be handling the distribution,
>>but it will not be out there until after Christmas.  For now,
>>it can be obtained from Downtown Music Gallery in NYC
>>(212-473-0043) and they do mail order.

Do you know where to get  Tetragrammotron in Europe ?

It is often hard to get rare Laswell or Zorn releases in Europe, despite of the
fact that you sometimes have to pay more than you pay for other records <that
chartshit that is in the stores today> so I would like to know where to get
brandnew "NY records" in Germany.

Thanx,

Marcus Klein


------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:26:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

At 11:52 AM 11/23/96 EST, Marcus Klein wrote:
>>>>I haven't yet heard Tetragrammotron (is this being widely
>>>distributed yet?)
>
>>>No.  It looks like Caroline will be handling the distribution,
>>>but it will not be out there until after Christmas.  For now,
>>>it can be obtained from Downtown Music Gallery in NYC
>>>(212-473-0043) and they do mail order.
>
>Do you know where to get  Tetragrammotron in Europe ?
>
>It is often hard to get rare Laswell or Zorn releases in Europe, despite of the
>fact that you sometimes have to pay more than you pay for other records <that
>chartshit that is in the stores today> so I would like to know where to get
>brandnew "NY records" in Germany.
>

This is a real problem and I don't think that there is an easy fix.  For one
thing, _Tetragrammaton_ was pressed several months ago and is just getting
US distribution.  Given how long this took, I sort of doubt that European
distribution will happen anytime soon.  You might try Downtown Music Gallery
([e-mail]) and see if they can ship it to you.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #35
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