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zorn-list Digest         Thursday, 21 November 1996     Volume 02 : Number 033

In this issue:

    Re: Trespass
    Re: Trespass
    Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.
    Re: Masada 7
    Trespass
    The Tubes
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    newbie w/ questions
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.
    Festival of Light
    Re: Festival of Light
    Re: Trespass
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism
    Re: Festival of Light
    Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:12:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Trespass

At 02:41 PM 11/20/96 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>Come on Jeff, expressing some opinions about an artist should be still
>allowed (even about sacred cows :-).
>
>Not making a god of every musician on earth should still be accepted. At the
>same time, never expressing any negative opinion about any musician
>should also be suspect (sign of hyprocrisy or lack of taste?), don't you
>think so (beside, of course, the easy and usual targets)?
>
>I am personally tired of the wishy-washy comments that more than often
>hide a total lack of interest for an artist/music, but refuse to acknowledge
>it (by saying "It's bad", etc). In this kind of situations, I find a
>statement such as "This sucks", quite refreshing :-).
>
>There are more scary things in the world (look at Zaire, for example).
>Also, I have seen very little criticism of other artists on this list
>(which indicates a significant difference in threshold between you
>and me :-).

I have no quarrel with what Patrice says here, and in fact agree that there
should be opinions.  What set me off here was the overt reference to the
reason for two scores to exist.  Nobody has any fucking knowledge of why
there are two different scores, at least not based on what has been posted
here.  This somehow has some implication for the quality of the music that
was used with the movie, which is nonsense.

I will reiterate that I happen to think the Cooder score is a great piece of
work.  The fact that the other score is around should be totally
independent, and the artists are in fact quite different.  If I asked if
someone thought John Zorn to be inferior/superior to Bernard Hermann as a
film score composer, I would expect them to tell me I'm an ass to ask the
question.  Same thing here.  And since no-one has any idea what the movie
would sound like with the Zorn score, given what happens to the music when
it is mixed in a movie soundtrack, it is ridiculous to say that one is more
effective than the other as the soundtrack to this particular movie.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:41:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Trespass

In a message dated 96-11-20 17:49:22 EST, [e-mail] (Patrice
L. Roussel) writes:

> Come on Jeff, expressing some opinions about an artist should be still
>  allowed (even about sacred cows :-).

Yeah, opinions on an artist, or another listmembers postings...

(Which would mean that your post and Jeffs are A-OK..)

>  I am personally tired of the wishy-washy comments that more than often
>  hide a total lack of interest for an artist/music, but refuse to
acknowledge
>  it (by saying "It's bad", etc). In this kind of situations, I find a
>  statement such as "This sucks", quite refreshing :-).
>
>  There are more scary things in the world (look at Zaire, for example).
>  Also, I have seen very little criticism of other artists on this list
>  (which indicates a significant difference in threshold between you
>  and me :-).

..Coming from the human computer, who is  known for spitting out the most
elaborate information on downtown artists...
(It's a joke, I feel I should point that out.. :) :)


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:41:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.

In a message dated 96-11-20 17:28:24 EST, [e-mail] (DANIEL
BITTON) writes:

> When you fuck up your ears, they get very sensitive, also drums are jsut
>  always too fucking loud if your sitting at them for two hours even if it
>  sounds like nothing from the audience.

But have you ever heard Masada live?  Joey doesnt play that loud.  I mean,
gun muffs??  And they were playing on the floor at the Knit, with the
audience three feet in front of the band.  I dont think his ears are messed
up, he probably has great hearing and doesnt want to endanger it.  Which is
very smart, but I really doubt he could have heard some of the quieter, more
delicate passages played by Douglas.

------------------------------

From: Mark Corroto <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:47:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Masada 7

it's  Masada Zayin (7 )

> Any recording info?
recorded april 16, 1996 NY

------------------------------

From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:48:45 +1100 (EDT)
Subject: Trespass

Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:12:20 -0800: Jeff Spirer writes,
>I will reiterate that I happen to think the Cooder score is a great piece
>of work. The fact that the other score is around should be totally
>independent, and the artists are in fact quite different.  If I asked if
>someone thought John Zorn to be inferior/superior to Bernard Hermann as a
>film score composer, I would expect them to tell me I'm an ass to ask the
>question. Same thing here.  And since no-one has any idea what the movie
>would sound like with the Zorn score, given what happens to the music
>when it is mixed in a movie soundtrack, it is ridiculous to say that one
>is more effective than the other as the soundtrack to this particular
>movie.

Ok, well, sure: you're as entitled to your opinion as anyone - as,
presumably, I and others are also. I don't know that I actually
expressed an opinion on the relative merits of Cooder's and Zorn's work as
scores (although I certainly prefer Zorn's score as music per se) - if I
did, you're quite right: its a moot point.

My initial point was simply that Zorn's score seems entirely appropriate
to the film, and its bewildering to me that the studio, Hill himself,
whoever, chose not to use it. That would seem to indicate that Zorn (like
any other musician who takes chances) still has "different" barriers in
his path. Further, this would seem to be especially the case with film
scoring.

go well, stay free...

Jim K

------------------------------

From: Ray Peck <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:52:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The Tubes

>That band is called "The Mistakes", & they have one album out on Immune. The
>lineup is Henry & Mike + bassist Andy West (ex Dregs) & drummer Prairie
>Prince (ex Tubes). It sounds like they are all having a lot of fun on it.

The Tubes are no longer ex.  They've got a new album out, which I
recently picked up.  It's pretty similar to "Completion Backward
Principle" and "Inside/Outside", meaning an ironically commercial
sound.  Not the experimentalism of their last (and IMO best) album,
"Love Bomb" (which was produced by Rundgren) or their first few.

Anyway, most of the old gang is back, minus Bill Spooner and Vince
Welnick.  Prarie, Rick Anderson, Fee (!), etc. are there.  There's a
strange Prarie Prince song that's reminiscent of "Wild Women of
Wongo".  He's a *monster* drummer live!

Anyway, probably nobody here cares, so fffth.


------------------------------

From: "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:06:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

Jeff wrote:
>>> In the spirit of positivity that Steve asked for, I would
recommend the CD _Tetragrammaton: Submerge_, which has Graham Haynes
playing horn with a drum'n' bass rhythm track that would probably be
a better place to start than other dnb recordings.<<<<

This brings us back to the original question which was: are the Derek
Bailey or Tetragrammaton d'n'b releases any good?

I would have to agree with the first poster (Jon?) who said that from
a JUNGLE viewpoint, the Bailey one wasn't up to much - the Wire
review agreed.

This thread certainly sorted out who is open-minded, and who isn't.
Everyone who's ever been to a club leapt to defend d'n'b.  The whole
thing has obvious parallels to hardcore.

Whoever said that you can't dance to jungle - this is one of the most
ridiculous things I've ever heard.    Or did you mean "I can't dance
to jungle" - I can empathise with this at least!

Alan (refreshed by change of topic from Masada/Buckethead ad nausem)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
LOOK                  LISTEN                LEARN
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:11:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

At 01:06 PM 11/21/96 GMT, Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC) wrote:
>Jeff wrote:
>>>> In the spirit of positivity that Steve asked for, I would
>recommend the CD _Tetragrammaton: Submerge_, which has Graham Haynes
>playing horn with a drum'n' bass rhythm track that would probably be
>a better place to start than other dnb recordings.<<<<
>
>This brings us back to the original question which was: are the Derek
>Bailey or Tetragrammaton d'n'b releases any good?

I can't comment on the Bailey since I can't find it.  Ninj, who does the
rhythm track on this, has appeared elsewhere, and I thought his work was
pretty good.

Tetragrammaton's "goodness" depends on how much you like dnb.  However, as I
said, it is a good place to start.  The two Material tracks are really
strong.  One has Graham Haynes playing over Bill's dnb tracks, quite a bit
of processing on the horn at times, some interesting improvisational stuff
at other times.    Very much a "construction" though, just a warning for
those who want three guys in a studio to play for an hour and put out a
recording.  The other Material track has Byard Lancaster, and for about the
first 2/3 has a slow beat that maybe someone would call trip hop.  There is
an Indian drone that fades in and out, and the track hits me like Material's
"Mantra" with a Western horn instead of an Indian one.  There's some dnb at
the end.  There are three other tracks on this, my own favorite of them
being "Carbon 12" by DJ Soul Slinger and David Quinlan, being a dnb thing
built around a guitar riff.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:21:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> Tetragrammaton's "goodness" depends on how much you like dnb.  However, as I
> said, it is a good place to start.  The two Material tracks are really
> strong.  One has Graham Haynes playing over Bill's dnb tracks, quite a bit
> of processing on the horn at times, some interesting improvisational stuff
> at other times.

See, here's the funny part... I agree with this, except that I don't
think it depends on how much you like d'n'b but rather how much you like
Laswell and learned grown to appreciate his ability to create worthwhile
music in pretty much any genre or setting he chooses - thrash, dance,
jazz, ambient, dub, whatever.  TETRAGRAMMATON is one of the most enjoyable
discs I've heard this year.  But I think also that maybe my own
reservations/limitations have just been made clearer to me.

It's the presence of Haynes and Lancaster that makes all the difference
to me, I think.  See, as I described it yesterday, my problem with Photek
and Spring Heel Jack was that, once all the rhythm and color machinery
is set in motion, nothing else HAPPENS.  It's like a perpetual motion
machine that burbles along in its own unique way for a span of however
many minutes and then it goes away to make room for the next little
machine.  Beyond setting the machine in motion, it just feels like
there's very little actual musical activity occurring.  I can imagine
that it would be hellaciously intense for dancing, but right now
I'm speaking as an active and committed listener rather than a partipant
in an activity to which music is an accessory.

With the tracks on TETRAGRAMMATON there is more activity, variety, and
personal involvement in each track than in all of the Photek and SHJ
discs I've been using for comparison, combined IMHO.  The two Material
tracks foreground an actual instrumentalist making real time decisions
over the d'n'b backgrounds (not to mention, on the Haynes track, Bill's
insistent dub bass stalking).  And even if there are not "soloists"
featured in the tracks by DJ Soul Slinger/David Quinlan and DJ Spooky,
there is still enough variety and foreground detail to give each
piece a satisfying sense of forward motion and narrative that really
sets it apart from the other more mainstream d'n'b things.

Again, it's MY biases, MY opinion.  I'm not trying to convince anyone
that I'm right about anything.  Those who want to know what d'n'b is
are, I think, best served by getting many different views on the topic,
and then following a pointer to whatever sounds most in synch with
one's own personal peccadilloes.  To them I would say:  If you are a
Derek Bailey fan you will buy GUITAR, BASS'N'DRUMS and you'll be
happy.  If you are a Laswell fan you should buy TETRAGRAMMATON and
you will also be happy.  But if you're just trying to get a sense
of what drum'n'bass is (not what it optimally COULD be when played
by our own favorite musicians) then neither of these examples is
typical in light of other things I have heard.

Heading out to buy a Squarepusher record this weekend (I'm serious),
Steve Smith
[e-mail]

------------------------------

From: Dan Shearon <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:26:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: newbie w/ questions

hi, im daniel.
two broad areas:

#1
did anyone see mr bungle in athens this past time around?
jeez, it mustve been almost a year ago
the crowd was really terrible
i think they expected a faith no more show
they complained way more than thay applauded
the band hung in there though and played a long set.
mostly from disco volante, but they threw in "Honeysuckle Rose" and
"Everybody's working for the weekend"
after the show, patton was (of course) mobbed, but just ignored everybody
and drank
i went up to jz, and opened my mouth to say something and he just scowled
and walked away. whatta guy.
so trey spruance talked to everyone who wanted to and served as a
recepticle for praise. hes really great.

 #2
i need some suggestions on what jz to buy
i have some naked city and the one thats maybe called " wall of heads"--it
has 36 guitar etudes, and elegy
personally, i am most impressed with elegy, but id also like to hear some
of his film music
and where do i find this stuff?
in nashville, the best we have is tower records, and its kinda limited.
hows that early recordings disc?
i saw it once, but i think its gone forever.
are there ways i can contact these companies?

thanks for reading this too-long letter
and thanks more if you respond to me
daniel
p.s. why cant i find blood ulmer's america albums?


------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:04:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

alan:

> This thread certainly sorted out who is open-minded, and who isn't.
> Everyone who's ever been to a club leapt to defend d'n'b.  The whole
> thing has obvious parallels to hardcore.

whether one likes d'n'b has nothing to do with being open minded. the
people who discussed their dislike of what d'n'b they had heard should
certainly be given credit for giving it a chance.
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:12:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.

I've seen them live twice, and he doesn't go loud compared to a rock band
or anything, but when you're a musician and you have tinnitus your ears
get pretty sensitive and it can be jarring to tolerate drums at all,
especially for 2 hrs. Some guys get pain in their ears from only 10
decibles. He's probably got sensitive ears, even if they're not very
messed up.  Gun muffs aren't necessarily super quiet, there's different
kinds, and those look silly but their really good for giving you a good
quality of sound, and when you're playing every night for two hours you
don't want to mess around.  He does get heavier on his solos and just on
his accompanying. It probably doesn't bug you because you can handle it
for a couple of hours and you probably don't blast your ears with sound
several hours a day in practice and perfrormance.  I play winds and I
have to wear plugs almost all the time too, especially around drums.
    Then again, maybe he's just wearing them in case he has to pull
out his AK-47 or his GAT to knock off some nasty patrons or relative who
may show up.  Ask him if you get the chance.

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 96-11-20 17:28:24 EST, [e-mail] (DANIEL
> BITTON) writes:
>
> > When you fuck up your ears, they get very sensitive, also drums are jsut
> >  always too fucking loud if your sitting at them for two hours even if it
> >  sounds like nothing from the audience.
>
> But have you ever heard Masada live?  Joey doesnt play that loud.  I mean,
> gun muffs??  And they were playing on the floor at the Knit, with the
> audience three feet in front of the band.  I dont think his ears are messed
> up, he probably has great hearing and doesnt want to endanger it.  Which is
> very smart, but I really doubt he could have heard some of the quieter, more
> delicate passages played by Douglas.
>

------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:40:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Festival of Light

For all you Zorn completists the tune Bikkurim from the Bar Kokhba CD
also appears on a Hanukkah CD called Festival of Light, together with
tunes by the Klezmatics, Don Byron, Jane Siberry. All very mellow
but worth a listen. Produced by Bob Appel.

Chris

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:11:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Festival of Light

On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:40:27 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> For all you Zorn completists the tune Bikkurim from the Bar Kokhba CD
> also appears on a Hanukkah CD called Festival of Light, together with
> tunes by the Klezmatics, Don Byron, Jane Siberry. All very mellow
> but worth a listen. Produced by Bob Appel.

What about the label? Is it a new release? Also, what is the complete
list of artists? That is the risk you take on this list when you jump
on and announce a new record :-).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:47:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Trespass

****  The point that Jeff Spirer was trying to make is that nobody on this
list seems to really know why Zorn's score (assuming that's what's actually
on the album) wasn't used.  For all we know, Zorn himself decided against it
being used.  Maybe he thought his score wasn't being used appropriately,
maybe it was a money thing, who knows?  And it's entirely possible that it
was *too* musical, that it drew too much attention to itself (which isn't
unreasonable considering that the film draws a sharp distinction between
diegetic rap music and non-diegetic Ry Cooder music).

Best,
Lang Thompson
http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm


In a message dated 96-11-21 00:54:29 EST, you write:

<< My initial point was simply that Zorn's score seems entirely appropriate
 to the film, and its bewildering to me that the studio, Hill himself,
 whoever, chose not to use it. That would seem to indicate that Zorn (like
 any other musician who takes chances) still has "different" barriers in
 his path. Further, this would seem to be especially the case with film
 scoring. >>


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:05:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

******  This raises an interesting point about Minimalism:  can you like
Philip Glass and not like jungle/techno?   Does it matter?  For me, one of
the problems with techno is that--as Steve says--it's just set in motion and
runs along (one reason so much techno/jungle sounds completely
interchangable).  With most Minimalism, there are people sitting there
playing drones or repeated phrases or whatever and that seems to make a big
musical difference.  Is that imaginary?  So i like techno/jungle only in
small doses or in shamelessly commercial artists like Moby or Utah Saints.
 The other point is that techno/jungle requires a different way of listening
where it doesn't really matter if "nothing else happens."  This is pretty
obvious, i guess, and really doesn't mean much (listening to a Beethoven
string quartet is different than Hank Williams, not better just different).
 But what it's lead to is a lot of preaching that techno (or electronica) is
the future and that most everything else is now irrelevant.  That's what
annoys me most about techno apologists (or for that matter free improvisors
who claim that written/composed music is oppressive).  It seems like just
recently has techno/jungle created enough compost for really interesting
artists to grow; i'm thinking of people like DJ Spooky (skip his liner
notes), DJ Shadow, Scanner, The Chemical Brothers.

Lang Thompson
http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm


In a message dated 96-11-21 13:19:06 EST, [e-mail] (Steve Smith)
writes:

<< o me, I think.  See, as I described it yesterday, my problem with Photek
 and Spring Heel Jack was that, once all the rhythm and color machinery
 is set in motion, nothing else HAPPENS.  It's like a perpetual motion
 machine that burbles along in its own unique way for a span of however
 many minutes and then it goes away to make room for the next little
 machine.  Beyond setting the machine in motion, it just feels like
 there's very little actual musical activity occurring.  I can imagine
 that it would be hellaciously intense for dancing, but right now
 I'm speaking as an active and committed listener rather than a partipant
 in an activity to which music is an accessory. >>


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:30:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Festival of Light

:
:
: On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:40:27 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
: >
: >
: > For all you Zorn completists the tune Bikkurim from the Bar Kokhba CD
: > also appears on a Hanukkah CD called Festival of Light, together with
: > tunes by the Klezmatics, Don Byron, Jane Siberry. All very mellow
: > but worth a listen. Produced by Bob Appel.
:
: What about the label? Is it a new release? Also, what is the complete
: list of artists? That is the risk you take on this list when you jump
: on and announce a new record :-).
:
:     Patrice.
:

Yes, it's a new release on the Six Degrees Label, a subsiduary of Island.
Six degrees is run by Bob Appel and Robert Duskis. I think it's their first
release. (*@sixdegreesrecords.com)

Marc Cohn - Rock of Ages-Ma'oz Tzur
The Mels featuring John Lebenthal - 1902
Flairck - The Emigrant
Don Byron - Oi Tata
The Covenant - Kiddush Le-Shabbat
Rebbe Soul - Avinu
John McCutcheon - Erev Shel Shoshanium
The Klezmatics - Dybbuk Shers
Masada String Trio - Bikkurim
Alitsut - I see you
Jane Siberry - Shir Amami
Peter Himmelman & David Broza - Lighting Up the World

Chris

P.S. No I don't work for them !


------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:19:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass/minimalism

At 09:05 PM 11/21/96 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> But what it's lead to is a lot of preaching that techno (or electronica) is
>the future and that most everything else is now irrelevant.  That's what
>annoys me most about techno apologists (or for that matter free improvisors
>who claim that written/composed music is oppressive).

This is an interesting and valid point.  I don't think that anyone on this
list has claimed that techno is the future.

But the comparison with free improv is interesting, because I think that in
some sort of Moebius strip sort of way, they can be the same.  I have
experienced improv to sometimes be hypnotic in its lack of structure, to the
point where the lack of structure becomes its own drone and the distinction
between one point and another in the improv are not particularly different
despite all sorts of obvious differences if one were to analyze the actual
notes being played.  But with drone, and some types of minimalism, the quite
opposite effect is rendered - that over time, the mind begins to create the
differences (improvisationally at this point) that are not visible.

Another interesting parallel, probably off-topic on this list, is that
people who listen to ambient music often like extreme hardcore stuff.

>It seems like just
>recently has techno/jungle created enough compost for really interesting
>artists to grow; i'm thinking of people like DJ Spooky (skip his liner
>notes), DJ Shadow, Scanner, The Chemical Brothers.

Most, if not all, of these people are related to the downtown music scene in
one way or the other and the comment might reflect what one happens to
listen to otherwise - I have found a lot of interesting stuff coming out of
England and Germany in this genre for the last three or four years that I
would say is equivalent of some of these artists.



Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

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