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zorn-list Digest        Wednesday, 20 November 1996    Volume 02 : Number 032

In this issue:

    br0tzmann/lasswell lp
    Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp
    Croquet
    Drum'n'bass
    more Henry Kaiser
    jungle
    Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    Re: Trespass
    100 CD box set thang
    H30
    Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.
    Re: Trespass
    Re: Drum'n'bass
    Masada 7
    Re: Masada 7
    Re: Masada 7
    Re: 100 CD box set thang
    Re: Jungle (was Re: ...Bailey's jungle record)
    Re: Drum'n'bass

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N Vassiliou <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:57:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: br0tzmann/lasswell lp

I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP,
probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not
really into this kind of this stuff, especially when not played by a
relatively large band (such as Last Exit) I would appreciate
any opinions from anyone who has listened to it.

Thanks

Nick Vassiliou



------------------------------

From: Matthew C Weiner <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:44:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp

My roommate just got this, and I think it'a absolutely great.
Brotzmann plays bass sax only; there are some overdubs. It
is screamingly intense music w/Laswell getting into some
extended technique/feedback (I think; only luistened to it
once); I'd say it's simlar t Last Exit in intensity but
clearer-textured (a description, not an evaluation).
You might appreciate that, given what you say about a
relatively large band (though I'm not sure relative to what).

I'm not sure what you mean by this kind of stuff. If you
don't like Last Exit, you might want to post where you've
seen it and post yourself there to watch the scramble.

Matt

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, N Vassiliou wrote:

> I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP,
> probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not
> really into this kind of this stuff, especially when not played by a
> relatively large band (such as Last Exit) I would appreciate
> any opinions from anyone who has listened to it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick Vassiliou
>
>


------------------------------

From: Nathaniel Dorward <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:11:20 -0400 (AST)
Subject: Croquet

Recently got Bruce Andrews's book of poems/performance pieces, _Ex Why
Zee_ (from Roof/The Segue Foundation), & see that one text there was
written for Zorn's "Croquet". Has this been/will this be released as a
recording?  I also note Lyn Hejinian supplied the text for "Que Tran";
same questions apply.  --N

                        *

                    Nate Dorward  ([e-mail])
                    website: http://is2.dal.ca/~ndorward/

                        *

                   ...Cambridge, where
        chthonic severance dictates endless toil.

                    --Peter Riley, _Alstonefield_


------------------------------

From: Matthew C Weiner <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:56:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Drum'n'bass

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Frankco Lamerikx wrote:
> Jungle, or drum 'n bass as its favored
> name is here in Europe, takes a somewhat
> awkward position within the dance world:
> it is the first dance music that you
> cannot actually dance to.
Odd--I have danced to it. Perhaps it depends on the style
of drum'n'bass.

> This observation
> seems to contrast with the statement
> that drum 'n bass serves as little more
> than background. However, it can serve
> as background of course without having to be dance music.
> Drum 'n bass is seen by some as an extension
> of jazz rather than of dance music.
> It borrows its rhythmic approach from dance
> (I think it is based on an extension
> of break beats first advocated by the likes
> of The Prodigy some years ago).
I'm told that several drum'n'bass programmers cite Shannon
Jackson as an influence. (Surprise! We're back on topic.)
Certainly what I've heard--and I'm by no means an expert--
seems pretty complex rhythmically.

> However, the feel to some of the most
> appreciated drum 'n bass releases is
> distinctly jazzy. There is also a level of
> complexity involved that is unheard
> of since the days of disco (at least
> within the dance world). Try to listen to
> a Squarepusher record and tell me that is
> not difficult music. In fact, I dare
> say, it is true avant-garde. This, of course,
> does not hold true for the
> majority of drum 'n bass releases, which can
> be seen as mere bandwagon jumping.

I agree about the music being avant-garde. I don't think
it's smart to dismiss the music after just a little
exposure; especially not on a newsgroup where "How do
I coax newbies into the music I like?" is a constant
topic.

FWIW, the Wire says that the drm'n'bass on the Bailey
album is pretty generic. Also, the much-hyped Goldie
album Timeless (got reviewed in Time! I have a theory
about that but it's off-topic) may be an easy way into
drum'n'bass--it has vocals and riffs and other things
that the unconverted might dig. Plus, it's good.

Matt


------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:38:45 -0500
Subject: more Henry Kaiser

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]> wrote:

>And in continuing to do penance to Cuneiform, I'd also like to mention
one
more recent Kaiser disc worth checking out.  THE SIAMESE
STEPBROTHERS
>(Cuneiform Rune 72, 1995) is quite the interesting record... it
pairs
Henry with Bruce Anderson (whom I believe is formerly of MX-80
Sound...
>anyone care to confirm?), early Grateful Dead keyboardist Tom
Constanten,
drummer Lukas Ligeti (son of the famous Hungarian composer I
think)
>and bassist Dale Sophiea.

BOTH Dale & Bruce are in MX-80, which is still in existence. And yes, Lukas
is the son of Georgy Ligetti. He also drummed in a Austrian band called
Kombinat M that had obvious influences from the "Downtown scene" until that
band died around '93.

>Henry also has a new band with last of the Zappa Band stunt guitarists Mike
>Kenneally, but I haven't heard it and can't remember the details.

That band is called "The Mistakes", & they have one album out on Immune. The
lineup is Henry & Mike + bassist Andy West (ex Dregs) & drummer Prairie
Prince (ex Tubes). It sounds like they are all having a lot of fun on it.

Lastly, a somewhat JZ related post - we will be releasing, in January '97, a
live 'n' studio CD called "Every Screaming Ear" by NYC's Doctor Nerve [who's
music definitely fits into the realm of that covered by this list] which will
be the final CD by Nerve that features trumpeter David Douglas [Masada], who
had been a member of Nerve since around 1984 & only left in the last 18
months when his schedule got too busy to remain with them.

Steve Feigenbaum


------------------------------

From: Harry Godfrey <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:27:08 +0000
Subject: jungle

Frankco and anyone else who might be interested:  some might indeed think
that jungle/drum n bass is undanceable, judging on audio experiences...but
certain nights at venues here in Britain which showcase the talents of such
stars as Goldie (Metalheadz) or LTJ Bukem (Speed) have been going for a long
time now and are getting more popular than one could imagine.  The new
Metalheadz night at the Leisure Lounge in London began a few weeks ago, and
if anybody WASN'T dancing, it's because they couldn't move due to the
jam-packed state of affairs. Extremely hot and sweaty.   People definitely
dance to jungle.

Alex


------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:14 -0800
Subject: Re: br0tzmann/lasswell lp

At 06:57 PM 11/20/96 +0000, N Vassiliou wrote:
>I recently came across a Peter Br0tzmann/Bill Lasswell collaboration LP,
>probably titled "Low Life". Since it was rather expensive and I am not

THIS SHOULD NOT BE "RATHER EXPENSIVE".  It has been sold as a cut-out in
some places.  I realize that M Vassiliou is in England, but I have seen new
copies for $10US and used ones for about $6US.  It's a great recording, but
do not spend a lot of money on it.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

At 02:56 PM 11/20/96 -0500, Matthew C Weiner wrote:

>I agree about the music being avant-garde. I don't think
>it's smart to dismiss the music after just a little
>exposure; especially not on a newsgroup where "How do
>I coax newbies into the music I like?" is a constant
>topic.

Great point.  The criticisms of drum 'n' bass that I have been reading here
are very similar to the accusations thrown at Zorn about use of rock in jazz.

Open those closed minds, and if you don't like it, wait a few years instead
of just saying it's not  worthwhile.



Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Trespass

At 04:41 PM 11/19/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote:
>18 Nov 1996 07:37:01 -0800, Jeff Spirer writes:
>>At 05:24 PM 11/18/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote:
>>>Oh, unnh, this one is a bit more embarassing; leastways for me. Mr Roussel
>>>kindly thanks me in the new zorn discography for mailing re: Filmworks 2
>>>(Zorn had been commissioned to do the score, but those inexorable
>>>MCA studio execs baulked, and got Ry Cooder to come up with his own
>>>perfectly competent but somewhat lesser alternative).
>>
>>"Lesser" in what sense?
>>
>>Or are we only allowed to pray to one god here?
>
>Well, unnh, I'm less interested in "prayer" than in music (perhaps
>you made a wrong choice of vocation). While Cooder and Zorn both recorded
>effective scores for the film (perhaps), Zorn's piece is - to me at least
>- far more interesting than Cooder's as a piece of music per se. Like most
>of Zorn's work - and almost none of Cooder's - there's a formal experiment
>happening here. Zorn uses those hillbilly strings to reference Hill's
>"Deliverance", and evoke the white trash millieu of "Trespass"'s protagonists.
>He uses the world music elements to describe that 'Heart of Darkness'
>that is the urban american ghetto. I could go on.
>
>Ultimately; my understanding of Cooder's brief is that he was asked to
>record a "lesser" (i.e "watered-down") version of Zorn's score.

And here is where this all starts to break down.  See, this is a rumor.
There are other reasons why this could have happened, and unless someone can
get Walter Hill online, there is no reason to believe that this is one.

FWIW, Ry Cooder has scored almost all of Walter Hill's movies after The
Warriors.  It is possible that Hill got funding for the movie to make what
the studio thought was a "typical" Walter Hill movie and that they thought
that included a Ry Cooder soundtrack.  It is possible that .....

And I am finding a high degree of musical intolerance popping up on this
list.  Cooder's soundtrack is very highly regarded by fans of "ambient"
music, for lack of a better word.  It is DIFFERENT.  And there is a big
difference between "different" and "lesser", or "different" and
"interesting."  Sometimes it sounds like dittoheads are talking about music
here, which is a little scarey thinking back to how hard it was for Zorn to
get through some of the "different" barriers.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:58:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 100 CD box set thang

Just out of curiosity: how many copies of this monstrosity is this label
going to print?  Not that i'm anxious to buy one, but it's the sort of
trivia i'd like to know. Maybe they're only going to print one copy and
send it out into space for other life forms to uncover.  After all, if
NASA is going to send out records of Glen Gould and whale calls as
representative (somehow) of humanity, then we should update our efforts
with 100 CDs of Zorn/Eye improvs, which seem to catch something of the
flavour of what it is to live on the planet earth (sometimes).

- -jascha

------------------------------

From: Seth Gordon <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:04:58 -0500
Subject: H30

I recently picked up my first album by the Hafler Trio (or H30, as I'm
told the fans call them). I'm a big fan of director Peter Greenaway and
saw their "collaborative" album, so I couldn't resist. Really liked it
alot. Real noisy and monotonous, but with an odd sense of humor. (I
suppose one could describe Peter G's films the same way, though.) Does
anyone have any recommendations where to go with them? What's the best
stuff to start with?

------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:27:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Joey Baron's industrial earplugs.

When you fuck up your ears, they get very sensitive, also drums are jsut
always too fucking loud if your sitting at them for two hours even if it
sounds like nothing from the audience.

On 20 Nov 1996, GCURRAN.US.ORACLE.COM wrote:

> I had pretty much the same reaction, "huh??"  Maybe it is just a reflexive
> response on Joey's part as I gather, from some of the reports I have read,
> that Masada regularly plays much larger rooms than they played in Boston.  In
> fact, when Cohen's amp died, during the second set, I had no trouble hearing
> him from the next to last row in the room.  This was one of the quietest jazz
> shows I have heard in quite some time.
>
> Maybe Joey played in too many heavy metal bands in his younger days?
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:41:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Trespass

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:49:16 -0800  Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> At 04:41 PM 11/19/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote:
> >18 Nov 1996 07:37:01 -0800, Jeff Spirer writes:
> >>At 05:24 PM 11/18/96 +1100, James Douglas Knox wrote:
> >>>Oh, unnh, this one is a bit more embarassing; leastways for me. Mr Roussel
> >>>kindly thanks me in the new zorn discography for mailing re: Filmworks 2
> >>>(Zorn had been commissioned to do the score, but those inexorable
> >>>MCA studio execs baulked, and got Ry Cooder to come up with his own
> >>>perfectly competent but somewhat lesser alternative).
> >>
> >>"Lesser" in what sense?
> >>
> >>Or are we only allowed to pray to one god here?
> >
> >Well, unnh, I'm less interested in "prayer" than in music (perhaps
> >you made a wrong choice of vocation). While Cooder and Zorn both recorded
> >effective scores for the film (perhaps), Zorn's piece is - to me at least
> >- far more interesting than Cooder's as a piece of music per se. Like most
> >of Zorn's work - and almost none of Cooder's - there's a formal experiment
> >happening here. Zorn uses those hillbilly strings to reference Hill's
> >"Deliverance", and evoke the white trash millieu of "Trespass"'s protagonists.
> >He uses the world music elements to describe that 'Heart of Darkness'
> >that is the urban american ghetto. I could go on.
> >
> >Ultimately; my understanding of Cooder's brief is that he was asked to
> >record a "lesser" (i.e "watered-down") version of Zorn's score.
>
> And here is where this all starts to break down.  See, this is a rumor.
> There are other reasons why this could have happened, and unless someone can
> get Walter Hill online, there is no reason to believe that this is one.
>
> FWIW, Ry Cooder has scored almost all of Walter Hill's movies after The
> Warriors.  It is possible that Hill got funding for the movie to make what
> the studio thought was a "typical" Walter Hill movie and that they thought
> that included a Ry Cooder soundtrack.  It is possible that .....
>
> And I am finding a high degree of musical intolerance popping up on this
> list.  Cooder's soundtrack is very highly regarded by fans of "ambient"
> music, for lack of a better word.  It is DIFFERENT.  And there is a big
> difference between "different" and "lesser", or "different" and
> "interesting."  Sometimes it sounds like dittoheads are talking about music
> here, which is a little scarey thinking back to how hard it was for Zorn to
> get through some of the "different" barriers.

Come on Jeff, expressing some opinions about an artist should be still
allowed (even about sacred cows :-).

Not making a god of every musician on earth should still be accepted. At the
same time, never expressing any negative opinion about any musician
should also be suspect (sign of hyprocrisy or lack of taste?), don't you
think so (beside, of course, the easy and usual targets)?

I am personally tired of the wishy-washy comments that more than often
hide a total lack of interest for an artist/music, but refuse to acknowledge
it (by saying "It's bad", etc). In this kind of situations, I find a
statement such as "This sucks", quite refreshing :-).

There are more scary things in the world (look at Zaire, for example).
Also, I have seen very little criticism of other artists on this list
(which indicates a significant difference in threshold between you
and me :-).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:00:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> Open those closed minds, and if you don't like it, wait a few years instead
> of just saying it's not worthwhile.

You wound me, sir! :-)  If there is one accusation that cannot be
levelled at me, it is closed-mindedness!

I don't plan to declare jungle a closed book (THE JUNGLE BOOK?)
anytime soon.  I'm simply disappointed that nothing I've tried so
far has been especially impressive, which is why I wrote to Frankco
privately to thank him for his reply and his recommendations.
Maybe it's just a matter of taste... when I followed JZ's pointers
to the Boredoms, Napalm Death and Carcass my response was immediate
and overwhelmingly positive.

Yours in the spirit of positive debate!
Steve Smith
[e-mail]

------------------------------

From: Mark Corroto <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:12:49 -0500
Subject: Masada 7

News: I am looking ar Masada Zavin (7 )
    DIW -915

tracks:    Shevet
        Hath-Arob
        Mahshaw
        Shamor
        Bacharach
        Otoit
        Nevuah
        Kedem
        Zemer
        Evel
        tekufah

also coming:
David Ware    Godspeilized
Dougie Brown    One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins
Blood Ulmer     Plays the music of ornette Coleman
Greg Cohen    Way Low
Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg

I'm excited

------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:49:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Masada 7

In a message dated 11/20/96 6:17:31 PM, [e-mail] (Mark
Corroto) wrote:

>also coming
>David Ware    Godspeilized
>Dougie Brown    One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins
>Blood Ulmer     Plays the music of ornette Coleman
>Greg Cohen    Way Low
>Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg

When? On DIW? Any more info here? This is a very intriguing set of titles.

Jon

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:10:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Masada 7

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:12:49 -0500  Mark Corroto wrote:
>
> News: I am looking ar Masada Zavin (7 )
                ^^^^^
or ZAYIN?

>     DIW -915
>
> tracks:    Shevet
>         Hath-Arob
>         Mahshaw
>         Shamor
>         Bacharach
>         Otoit
>         Nevuah
>         Kedem
>         Zemer
>         Evel
>         tekufah

Any recording info?

> also coming:
> David Ware    Godspeilized
> Dougie Brown    One Way Elevator w/John Medeski & Fred Hopkins
         ^^^^^

I guess you mean Bowne.

> Blood Ulmer     Plays the music of ornette Coleman
> Greg Cohen    Way Low
> Altered States w/Ned Rothenberg
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This one is called CAFE 9.15. and is on the label Phenotype (which
is owned by DIW).

> I'm excited

So am I :-)

    Thanks for sharing your excitement,

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: Barry Gilbert <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:25:43 -0700
Subject: Re: 100 CD box set thang

At 04:58 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Just out of curiosity: how many copies of this monstrosity is this label
>going to print?

1000 copies only.


Barry Gilbert
Boulder, Colorado


------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:27:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Jungle (was Re: ...Bailey's jungle record)

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Steve Smith wrote:

> unfulfilling.  The music serves as little more than background, even
> with its extremely clever manipulation of rapid pulse.  Photek seemed

Others are doing a better job than I could in responding to most of the
comments raised by Steve in his post, but I want to make one point that
hasn't been raised yet:  This music is LOUD.  If it's only serving as
background, then the volume knob is probably turned too far down.  I
suspect that this is one reason that drum-n-bass always works better for
me one the dancefloor, but even on a home stereo, the breakbeats hit with
a force that at its best is intensely physical, and very much in the
spirit, if not the tradition, of Napalm Death, Painkiller, and _Torture
Garden_.  I haven't heard any of the releases Steve mentions yet, although
I'll certainly snap up the Bailey album as soon as I get, but you might
try turning up the volume if you're not "getting it". I don't think that
this is all that drum-n-bass has going for it, but
it's an important part of the aesthetic (at least for me).  If you're not
getting this effect at home, you might also consider checking out a club
set by a good DJ.

Chris


Chris Hamilton
Dept. of Philosophy
University of Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh, PA
USA



------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:12:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Drum'n'bass

At 07:00 PM 11/20/96 -0800, Steve Smith wrote:

>
>I don't plan to declare jungle a closed book (THE JUNGLE BOOK?)
>anytime soon.  I'm simply disappointed that nothing I've tried so
>far has been especially impressive, which is why I wrote to Frankco
>privately to thank him for his reply and his recommendations.
>Maybe it's just a matter of taste... when I followed JZ's pointers
>to the Boredoms, Napalm Death and Carcass my response was immediate
>and overwhelmingly positive.

In the spirit of positivity that Steve asked for, I would recommend the CD
_Tetragrammaton: Submerge_, which has Graham Haynes playing horn with a drum
'n' bass rhythm track that would probably be a better place to start than
other dnb recordings.  This CD is unavailable right now outside of NYC (in
NYC, Downtown Music Gallery has it and will mail order), but it should be in
distribution in the next few weeks through Caroline.  A lot of people also
recommend Squarepusher, which I like although not as much.

An interesting alternative, very far from the normal topics of this list, is
Lee Perry's/Mad Professor's _Super Ape Inna Jungle_, a very low budget
reggae meets dnb that I happen to enjoy.

I haven't heard the Derek Bailey, I can't find it, so I have no idea what it
sounds like.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


------------------------------

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