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From: Zorn List Digest
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 4:13 PM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #179
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, November 26 1997 Volume 02 : Number 179
In this issue:
-
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re:Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert'
Re: The classic guide to marketing strategy (was: Gainsbourg???)
Nyman
Thieves Quartet
Zorn List Digest V2 #178
Zorn a control freak?
Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...)
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert'
Re: Nyman
Great Jewish Music
Harry Smith again
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Great Black Music
Marc Ribot at KF
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music...
Bass Army
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:37:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Julian wrote:
> Zorn has offered a title, and already we have seen many different
> interpretations of it, and possible reasons for the title. I think the idea
> is that you can think whatever you want, really there shouldn't be so much
> discussion.
If it's intentionally left open to interpretation, wouldn't refusing to
discuss it be the only way to misinterpret it?
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:59:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Jeff Lawrence Schwartz wrote:
> It seems likely to me that Zorn is making several points
> (not all of which I'm comfortable with) about cultural Zionism and Black
> cultural nationalism by putting them next to each other...
> Anyone want to try to run with that?
Well, on one hand, Zorn's version of Cultural Zionism, like the AACM's
version Black cultural nationalism, seems very open to influence from and
collaboration with other ethnicities. In this sense, Zorn's Zionism seems
to be set up in opposition to narrower versions of Zionism, both in his
insistence on going beyond "conservative preservation" (Gershom Scholem)
and his citation of Asher Ginzberg's call for a movement "in which all
Jews everywhere could find pride and meaning". (I may be reading too much
into this, but I've often imagined that the word 'everywhere' here is
meant as a contrast to constructions of Jewish identity which bind it
closely to the modern state of Israel.) Nothing there bothers me, but
it's potentially controversial.
On the other hand, I am slightly disturbed by Zorn's references in
the liners to the Gainsbourg CD to Gainsbourg's "Jewish sense of humor"
and the inescapability of Jewishness. There's a tension between this
apparent essentialism and the above commitment to openness. Amiri
Baraka's discussion of black music as an "ever-changing same" might be a
good comparison. There's a danger of this sort of thinking becoming a
cage. Witness the surprisingly short walk from Baraka to Stanley Crouch.
Is this the sort of thing that makes you uncomfortable?
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:27:37 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
> If it's intentionally left open to interpretation, wouldn't refusing to
> discuss it be the only way to misinterpret it?
No I mean interpret it however you like.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:57:52 -0800
From: Ethan Danberry <danberry@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re:Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert'
I have Ikue Mori's Painted Desert, and I also have John Zorn's Filmworks VI,
the first part of which, "Anton, Mailman" (tracks 1-4), bears many
similarities to Painted Desert, in style at least. Ribot is involved in
both projects. I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about this, but
Painted Desert was recorded more than two years before Filmworks VI. Maybe
I'm just hearing Ribot's style in each and equating the similarities of his
work in each project with similarities between projects, but tracks #3 and
especially #4 could easily have been on Painted Desert. Furthermore, track
#9 on FVI, also features Ribot AND Ikue Mori, and also sounds remarkably
similar. I don't think that any of Ikue Mori's solo works sound like
Painted Desert nearly so much as these Filmworks VI tracks do. Maybe this
will lead you to the knowledge you seek, or confirmation of your theory of
free reign. I think you would be correct in your theory regarding Zorn
giving free reign to his lil guitar boys, Robert and Marc, as well as other
musicians. No doubt, Ikue Mori would do the same. Still, I don't think
that Quine and Ribot always sound that way, nor do they lend that sound to
every project they join. I think the entire stall of Tzadik musicians, or
Zornapostles(Don't read into that designation to deeply; it's a joke), all
feed of of one another's ideas to such an extent that they all influence one
another's work very much. The exact influences and who influences whom seem
to blur, and there is a great deal of influencers being influenced by their
influencees, much like the interaction within family trees in the midwest.
I'm sure I've confused you more than I've helped, as I believe I may have
confused myself in the process of writing this. Oh well.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:56:42 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: The classic guide to marketing strategy (was: Gainsbourg???)
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
>
Unnh, yeah; I think its a little chauvinistic (in the best, original-
French, meaning of that word) for Zorn to qualify a musician in this way.
Nothing to get upset about, tho'; its a marketing strategy, plain and
simple - and one that Zorn presumably hopes to profit from in more than
one way (something about "guilt by association", y'know?)
But who knows? Maybe when Zorn is dead, his work will be re-released in
the series: epater les bourgeousie Music.
(with apologies to anyone who really knows French)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:07:28 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Nyman
While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his
soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart
from that there are some mild similarities in their output?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:27:53 +0100
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Thieves Quartet
Message for people able to receive Belgium television:
Tonight,La Une is broadcasting the Thieves Quartet
with music of JZ(filmworks III, with the Masada-quartet).
(it will be the french version of the movie, I'm afraid)
YVes
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 06:43:57 -0500
From: Glenn_Lea@avid.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #178
> > If you can find it, ETERNAL RHYTHM by Don Cherry features Sonny
Sharrock and
> > was recorded in Nov. 1968
> >
> > I don't know if this was ever released on cd, the copy I have is an
lp (BASF
> > 20680)
>
> It hasn't been released on disc, but damn sure should be.
I believe this WAS released on CD about a year ago, in Europe only, on
Verve (!) as a double CD with additional material. "The Wire" was
giving it away as a freebie to new subscribers, even. But I can't find
any reference to it on the Verve website. Can anyone help here?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:45:10 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <ffeger@gwdg.de>
Subject: Zorn a control freak?
On Monday I talked with Herb Robertson, and he mentioned that Zorn wouldn't
leave too much decisions to the musicians, and he disliked it. He said that
Zorn chooses people to play with him who, harshly formulated, do what he
says. Is that really so?
Fritz.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:40:06 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <ffeger@gwdg.de>
Subject: Jewish Music / Black Music (was: Serge Gainsbour...)
Okay, by putting Serge Gainsbourg into a series of "Great Jewish Music",
Zorn wants to promote Jewish self-confidence, and that's of course an
honourable end. But what makes it problematic to me is the implied
connection between racial or religious affiliation and the production of
art. I don't like this deterministic conclusion (Chris called it
"inescapability") from the former to the latter and believe that people can
create very independently from certain parts of their heritage (which means
that I would like to differentiate between contingent heritage and "roots",
which are meaningful for the work). Examples are white people playing Black
Music, and, even more, gay people in art and science. In most cases it is
absolutely useless to connect their work with their beeing gay or of this
and that race.
It is in principle an appropriate artistic tool to overdraw provocatively,
but to to draw wrong connections between something, for example Gainsbourg
and Jewish MUSIC, is too meager IMHO.
To me, this raises another question: has an artist to be politically
correct, or, put otherwise and more meaningful, morally correct in every
detail of his work, leaving aside the overall message? I don't think so...
Fritz.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:17:12 -0600
From: dmcrump@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu (Rusty Crump)
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
>Zorn has offered a title, and already we have seen many different
>interpretations of it, and possible reasons for the title. I think the idea
>is that you can think whatever you want, really there shouldn't be so much
>discussion.
>
>
>-
No, no, no, no, no! You were doing fine until you got to that last clause.
Discussion is GOOD. Dialectic is GOOD. Colloquy is GOOD. Intelligent debate
is GOOD. These are all GOOD things.
"really there shouldn't be so much discussion" is NOT GOOD.
Rusty Crump
Oxford, Mississippi
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:18:52 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert'
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:58 -0800 Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
> I recently picked up Ikue Mori's 'Painted Desert', which I enjoy quite a
> bit. A question arose, however (forgive me if this subject has been
> broached before):
>
> Several of the tracks, notably 'Mojave' and 'El Dorado' would not sound
> at all out of place on a JZ soundtrack release. I'm curious if anyone
> knows whether this is JZ's influence on Mori's compositional sense, the
> reverse or, my guess, Ribot and Quine being given fairly free rein on
> the construction of the songs. If the latter is true, it implies that
> they also get that freedom from JZ, which I wouldn't have thought was
> the case; I generally figured he kept fairly tight control over his
> 'written' pieces--perhaps they weren't as 'written' as I thought.
Not an exact answer to your question...
In a interview in a French magazine, Ikue Mori said that PAINTED DESERT
was not really her project. It started as, but Quine and Ribot ended up
to control it more or less totally. For that reason, she was reluctant
to say anything about it.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:40:48 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Nyman
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:07:28 +1100 "Julian" wrote:
>
> While people are talking about this guy, what does everyone think of his
> soundtrack work? Incidentally, is there any link between him and Zorn apart
> from that there are some mild similarities in their output?
Similarities? As much as a one-dimension figure can be to a three-dimension one...
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:50:45 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Great Jewish Music
I always figured it was supposed to be ironic. Like, hey, here's some great
JEWISH music, but, of course, it's just everyday great pop music. The idea
being, well, Jewish or not Jewish, it doesn't make any difference. So, when he
specifically identifies them as being Jewish, as if it made a difference, it
seems silly and maybe casts into doubt the whole idea of separating people in
any way. I can't speak for the liner notes, but this is what I always thought.
It'd be like calling a jazz series, Anthony Braxton: Great Black Music, Sun Ra:
Great Black Music, John Coltrane: Great Black Music, Cecil Taylor: Great Black
Music, etc. when obviously, blackness has nothing to do with it, and to even
insinuate it does points out the ridiculousness of the whole idea of separating
people in the first place.
I suppose he picked Jewish because he himself is Jewish and he does have that
Jewish identity thing going with Tzadik.
So.
Then, arguements over irony are even more ironic, I think, and bring the point
home more than ever.
Either that or he's a maniacal Zionist outing Jewish composers.
Whatever.
Although I do think that the Maniacal Zionists would be a good name for a band.
- --
Peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:52:34 -0800
From: Herb Levy <herb@eskimo.com>
Subject: Harry Smith again
Folks with an interest in Harry Smith either before or due to the recent
discussion of his work here, might be interested in an article on his films
by J Hoberman in the current issue of the magazine Film Comment.
There's also a reference to a book on Smith by Hoberman, which I haven't
seen yet
Herb Levy
herb@eskimo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:45:12 -0500 (EST)
From: jnschust@sas.upenn.edu (Joshua N Schuster)
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Why isn't Gainsbourg's work great jewish music? It doesn't have to be
klezmer to be jewish. That is one of the interesting things about Zorn's
Tzadik section "Radical Jewish Culture". There is plenty there that is
not Klezmer based, and I'd still consider it great jewish music. Zorn is
always provocative in not just mixing catagories but expanding them.
What it means to be jewish and to play specifically jewish music, whatever
that might mean, is certainly not limited to just one genre. An
interesting idea though would be: what if someone else had the idea of
"Great Jewish Music" and did Zorn tunes from Naked City or Painkiller
albums, claiming that too as jewish music?
The writer Edmond Jabes, in the same book of interviews that Zorn tends to
quote from, talks about these issues. Jabes calls himself a Jew and a
writer, but not a Jewish writer. He does this mostly so people will not
reduce his work to a catagory and a simple theme. It's not so simple that
Zorn just parades the work of successful Jews in a call for a Jewish
cultural zionism. There is more at stake, there is more danger, than just
what is obviously "Great Jewish Music". The question of identity, Jewish
or whatever, is much more complicated, and including Gainsbourg in that
tradition, a tradition being invented as we speak, helps to expand the
issue.
- -Joshua Schuster
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:49:45 -0700
From: john shiurba <shiurba@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: Great Black Music
peter risser:
> It'd be like calling a jazz series, Anthony Braxton: Great Black Music, Sun Ra:
> Great Black Music, John Coltrane: Great Black Music, Cecil Taylor: Great Black
> Music, etc. when obviously, blackness has nothing to do with it, and to even
> insinuate it does points out the ridiculousness of the whole idea of separating
> people in the first place.
while i agree that the idea of separating people has dubious merits, you can't escape
the fact that it exists in this society. and it has been stated in no uncertain terms, by
some of the artists that you reference above that their music is indeed formed from
their experience as a _black_ person/musician, and that _blackness_ has everything
to do with it.
- --
shiurba@sfo.com
http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:37:44
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Marc Ribot at KF
On the Tzadik website there is mention of a series of concerts by Marc
Ribot and his new band (the prosthetic cubans?) at the Knitting Factory. I
believe the dates are december 4,5,6 and 7. However on the Knitting Factory
page there is no mention of these concerts.
I was wondering if any NYC people on this list could tell me if Ribot will
in fact be playing because I'm going to be in town then and would really
like to see what this new band is all about.
Thanks,
Jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:33:43
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music...
My e-mail has been down for a few days so I regret that I haven't been able
to participate in most of the "Great Jewish Music" thread. I've read it all
and almost all of the comments were insightful and well reasoned (exactly
why I signed up to this list in the first place)
However I figured I would offer this thought. Part of the success of the
series is that it works off the disparity between cultural affiliation and
public perception. Also, there is an incredible difference between the
Jewish culture and the Jewish religion. Saying that Gainsbourg was Jewish
implies certain religious things, but saying that his music was Jewish is a
cultural distinction which may or may not apply.
I think that by using the word Jewish to describe the music of Gainsbourg,
Zorn is asking us to examine the music in a different context. Certainly
that's what I did with the Bacharach album. It started me thinking "what is
it that makes this music especially Jewish". In the end I couldn't really
think of anything other than the composer's religious orientation.
There are times when calling Bacharach's music "Great Jewish Music" seems
as absurd as calling the Rolling Stones "Great Christian Music". I start to
wonder: "Do I write Jewish music?" or "Do I write Jewish stories?". The
series has certainly got me thinking about the unwritten (and unexplored)
role that culture and religion has in the creation of art.
The upshot of all this is that Jewish or not, I'm interested in finding
more out about Serge Gainsbourg and if anyone could direct me to some
informative sources, I'd be much obbliged.
Jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:27:14 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Bass Army
Does anyone know if Bass Army (w/Kato Hideki) has any other albums out
besides 'Karada Wa Oto Dasu Mono'???? Thanks.
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:11:56 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
> Why isn't Gainsbourg's work great jewish music? It doesn't have to be
> klezmer to be jewish. That is one of the interesting things about Zorn's
> Tzadik section "Radical Jewish Culture". There is plenty there that is
> not Klezmer based, and I'd still consider it great jewish music. Zorn is
> always provocative in not just mixing catagories but expanding them.
> What it means to be jewish and to play specifically jewish music,
whatever
> that might mean, is certainly not limited to just one genre. An
> interesting idea though would be: what if someone else had the idea of
> "Great Jewish Music" and did Zorn tunes from Naked City or Painkiller
> albums, claiming that too as jewish music?
You realise that it'll probably be some of the musicians on this list who
do end up doing such a thing.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #179
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