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1998-03-08
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From: Zorn List Digest
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 10:06 AM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #177
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, November 25 1997 Volume 02 : Number 177
In this issue:
-
Re: Bailey, Konitz etc
Re: Bailey, Konitz etc
Re: Serge Gainsbourg
Re: Serge Gainsbourg
Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
plunderphonics cover picture
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 09:20:29 -0000
From: G=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e9rard_Rouy?= <grouy@nordnet.fr>
Subject: Re: Bailey, Konitz etc
>> > Lee Konitz is the ONLY jazz player who has been taking the risk of
>> > playing with Derek Bailey.
>> Euh, that's not really true. Bailey performed in Antwerp last month, with
>> Reggie Workman and Steve Lacy...
>
>Besides, would you call the people who play with Bailey in the Company
>events or the Knit events all not-jazz?
>
Most of them, yes. But what is the point in there ?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:26:44 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Bailey, Konitz etc
>Is Lacy really and only a jazz player (even if I'm sure he would say
>"yes") ?
I just got home from seeing Lacy's trio at LA's Jazz Bakery...
Lacy is not "only" anything...he is a Master...absolutely unbelievably
satisfying...
s~Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:51:07 +0100
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Re: Serge Gainsbourg
Being a fan of both Zorn and Gainsbourg,
I was looking for the original versions of all the songs that appear
on the Tzadik-album. I already had a great part of the songs, and
most of the others were easy to locate. But up to now I was unable
to find the song "contact" (by zorn on the Tzadik disk): does anybody
now were I can find this one (on which album ?)
Thanks,
Yves
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:19:35 +0100
From: "Olivier NGUYEN VAN TAN" <onvt@micronet.fr>
Subject: Re: Serge Gainsbourg
Hi,
"Contact" is a Brigitte Bardot song from the 60░.
I don't know on which album it was released... Maybe, it was just a vinyl (45T
single). A collector ?? Zorn is a vinyl collector, doesn't he ??
Anyway, you can find it on a Brigitte Bardot compilation in France. (sorry, I don't
have the exact name of this CD). I never heard this original but I saw the name of
the song on the track listing.
Olivier, fennec parmi les Fennecs
Le Site du Fennec pour les musiques creatives...
http://www.fennec.digiweb.fr
"La vulgarite, c'est l'aboutissement de l'imprecision"
Serge Daney
- -----Message d'origine-----
De : Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
>But up to now I was unable
>to find the song "contact" (by zorn on the Tzadik disk): does anybody
>now were I can find this one (on which album ?)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:19:37 +0100
From: Nuno BARREIRO <nbar@iml.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
(musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
Nuno Barreiro
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:33:43 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
> For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
Having had such a conversation about the Bacharach one, I came to the
conclusion as I'm sure many people did that Zorn's titling of these albums
could be seen as a play on words - the music isn't characteristically
Jewish or anything but the fact that these guys are musicians and they are
also Jewish, therefore in these simple terms they must make Jewish music.
In the same vein, when Zorn called Book Of Heads "studies for guitar", I
think it is just as valid to say the pieces are studies in composition as
in guitar playing, perhaps even more so. So, what I mean is... Zorn likes
to fool around when naming his stuff.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:27:51 -0500
From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
>
> Nuno Barreiro
This has to be one of the dumbest (I'll avoid anti-Semitic) comments I
have yet to read on this list. If you don't like the title, don't buy
it. Perhaps Wagner would be a better choice.
Alan Kayser
>
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:24:59 +0100
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Untill the release of the Tzadik-CD I didn't know that Gainsbourg
was Jewish. I have never discovered any apparent Jewish influences
in his music, so it was not at all obvious to me.
But it gives an other meaning to songs as
"Nazi-Rock" and "un SS in Uruguay".
Comments?
YVes
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:13:34 -0500
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: plunderphonics cover picture
If anyone knows where I can find a copy of the cover of the original
plunderphonics cover *full size*, please let me know, by private email
if necessary. The one at the plunderphonics site is very small and
looks grainy when blown up to full size.
BTW, Oswald fans should definitely check out
http://www.interlog.com/~vacuvox/, where the unavailable list has
gotten smaller.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions do not reflect on management
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:26:21 +0100
From: Nuno BARREIRO <nbar@iml.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
You didn't answer my question... or perhaps didn't read the whole question!
Do you now anything about Gainsbourg? Have you ever read anything on him
or his autobiography?
So be careful before you say my affirmation is dumb (or even worse, anti-
Semitic)... By saying that you are being narrow-minded and you are trying
to close a debate by the easiest path.
Nuno Barreiro
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:19:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "k. drudge" <kdrudge@julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, ALAN E. KAYSER wrote:
> Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
>
> > For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> > that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> > Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> > with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> > (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
> >
> > Nuno Barreiro
>
> This has to be one of the dumbest (I'll avoid anti-Semitic) comments I
> have yet to read on this list. If you don't like the title, don't buy
> it. Perhaps Wagner would be a better choice.
>
> Alan Kayser
..why dumb?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:35:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:19:37 +0100 Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
>
> For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
Tu en es si sur ?
I always wondered if Gainsbourg was not carrying his "ugliness" as a
cross to hide his "jewishness".
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:42:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <mecorey@imap3.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
yes.....it is absolutely ridiculous. Calling each tribute "Great Jewish
Music" seems like a highly unnecessary extension of Zorn's little theory
expressed in the liner notes that great Jewish people who make music must
make "great jewish music". I haven't exactly analyzed the harmonic and
melodic structure of every or even any Bacharach or Gainsbourg song, but
it seems pretty obvious to my ear that most relatively accessible pop music
has never, and will never express the dark sour quality that most actually-
Jewish music does. so...calling it Jewish music is a bit overboard in my
opinion. Being Jewish myself, their music really doesnt grab me in any
particular way that certain Jewish music might....other than just
acknowledging the fact that they were Jewish...and made great music....
etc etc etc.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:39:24 -0500
From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> You didn't answer my question... or perhaps didn't read the whole
> question!
> Do you now anything about Gainsbourg? Have you ever read anything on
> him
> or his autobiography?
>
> So be careful before you say my affirmation is dumb (or even worse,
> anti-
> Semitic)... By saying that you are being narrow-minded and you are
> trying
> to close a debate by the easiest path.
>
> Nuno Barreiro
>
My point is that to be critical of Zorn over the naming of a CD, one
which refers to an artist's religion in this case, is simply dumb,
IMHO. I really don't care what the title is, as long as it's not
offensive. You seem to be offended by SG being categorized as Jewish.
I salute Mr. Zorn in his efforts to bring this music to an audience that
might otherwise ignore it. Plans are for more in this series. For your
sake I hope he doesn't do Mahler or Mendelssohn. Again, if you don't
like Great Jewish Music, don't buy it.
Alan
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:56:55 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:27:51 -0500 "ALAN E. KAYSER" wrote:
>
> Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
>
> > For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you think
> > that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> > Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> > with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> > (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
> >
> > Nuno Barreiro
>
> This has to be one of the dumbest (I'll avoid anti-Semitic) comments I
> have yet to read on this list. If you don't like the title, don't buy
> it. Perhaps Wagner would be a better choice.
Alan, if you were French and had followed Gainsbourg's carreer on a regular
basis (through his records, appearances on TV/radio shows, etc), you would
not consider Nuno's statement as dumb as that.
I had the same initial reaction as Nuno and I think I know what he means.
Being a jew was not something that Gainsbourg put in front.
For French people, Gainsbourg is more than just another exotic name in
a record collection.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:22:21 -0500
From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:27:51 -0500 "ALAN E. KAYSER" wrote:
> >
> > Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> >
> > > For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you
> think
> > > that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> > > Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> > > with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> > > (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
> > >
> > > Nuno Barreiro
> >
> > This has to be one of the dumbest (I'll avoid anti-Semitic) comments
> I
> > have yet to read on this list. If you don't like the title, don't
> buy
> > it. Perhaps Wagner would be a better choice.
>
> Alan, if you were French and had followed Gainsbourg's carreer on a
> regular
> basis (through his records, appearances on TV/radio shows, etc), you
> would
> not consider Nuno's statement as dumb as that.
>
> I had the same initial reaction as Nuno and I think I know what he
> means.
> Being a jew was not something that Gainsbourg put in front.
>
> For French people, Gainsbourg is more than just another exotic name in
>
> a record collection.
>
> Patrice.
Patrice:
Thanks for your reply. I hope you understand that reading Nuno's
statement I was struck by someone being offended by another person's
desire to claim an artist as "Great Jewish." Is that a curse? Are the
French offended by SG's Jewishness? I would present to you that it is
simply that Zorn is saying this is great music by someone who happens to
be Jewish. It is not any more Jewish music than is Bacharach's. It is
music by a Jewish person, much like Irving Berlin, Bob Dylan, etc, not
Jewish music. Jewish music is something else entirely. Come on, lots
of people, myself included, are going to be exposed to this relatively
unknown music to most Americans. Zorn should be getting some credit for
that. If I am being overly sensitive, perhaps it is with good reason.
I see the word "Jewish" as the problem here, and though I know nothing
of SG, I do know of being Jewish. Ask yourself, Patrice...would you
have a problem if it was simply SG: Great Music?
Alan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:19:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Corey Marc Fogel wrote:
> it seems pretty obvious to my ear that most relatively accessible pop music
> has never, and will never express the dark sour quality that most actually-
> Jewish music does.
"dark sour quality" ?!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:47:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:22:21 -0500 "ALAN E. KAYSER" wrote:
>
> Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:27:51 -0500 "ALAN E. KAYSER" wrote:
> > >
> > > Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
> > >
> > > > For those of you who know Gainsbourg for some time: don't you
> > think
> > > > that it's absolutely RIDICULOUS to refer to his music as "Jewish
> > > > Music"? If he was alive he would never allow the CD to come out
> > > > with such a title... doens't fit with anything in his universe
> > > > (musical, personal, political, religious, etc...).
> > > >
> > > > Nuno Barreiro
> > >
> > > This has to be one of the dumbest (I'll avoid anti-Semitic) comments
> > I
> > > have yet to read on this list. If you don't like the title, don't
> > buy
> > > it. Perhaps Wagner would be a better choice.
> >
> > Alan, if you were French and had followed Gainsbourg's carreer on a
> > regular
> > basis (through his records, appearances on TV/radio shows, etc), you
> > would
> > not consider Nuno's statement as dumb as that.
> >
> > I had the same initial reaction as Nuno and I think I know what he
> > means.
> > Being a jew was not something that Gainsbourg put in front.
> >
> > For French people, Gainsbourg is more than just another exotic name in
> >
> > a record collection.
> >
> > Patrice.
>
> Patrice:
>
> Thanks for your reply. I hope you understand that reading Nuno's
> statement I was struck by someone being offended by another person's
> desire to claim an artist as "Great Jewish." Is that a curse? Are the
> French offended by SG's Jewishness? I would present to you that it is
This is definitely an area where we might disagree.
You can't deny that Zorn is using this classification "Great Jewish
Composers" for some personal motives (not 100% artistic). Does it mean
that because he (Zorn) is Jew, he is entitled to talk for all of them?
Rallying people under his banner without asking them (specially if they
are dead), is not a moot point to me, specially when the person in question
(SG) worked so hard to keep it part of his private life.
I would say that because SG was very careful in not putting his jewishness
on the table, there is a legitimate concern that he might not have liked
his case to be used for this crusade. From the little I know about him (and
Nuno can confirm), he never wanted his jewishness to interfere with his
carreer.
In France we have a word called "pudeur", for qualifying things that we
keep for ourselves or our very close friends (and I do not include journalists
as close friends...). I have not been able to find any satisfying translation
of this word in English. Might wonder if the concept is relevant... Regardless
of all his antics, SG was a very "pudic" person.
I know that what I wrote above will be totally misinterpreted...
> simply that Zorn is saying this is great music by someone who happens to
> be Jewish. It is not any more Jewish music than is Bacharach's. It is
> music by a Jewish person, much like Irving Berlin, Bob Dylan, etc, not
> Jewish music. Jewish music is something else entirely. Come on, lots
> of people, myself included, are going to be exposed to this relatively
> unknown music to most Americans. Zorn should be getting some credit for
> that. If I am being overly sensitive, perhaps it is with good reason.
> I see the word "Jewish" as the problem here, and though I know nothing
> of SG, I do know of being Jewish. Ask yourself, Patrice...would you
> have a problem if it was simply SG: Great Music?
Anyway, who knows what SG would have said of this project. I am very
happy that Zorn did it and the point discussed above does not prevent me
from sleeping. My initial concerns about the project was that the main
point in his art (the words) might be lost. I am surprised how well the
project ended up.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:10:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <bburton@CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: Gainsbourg is jewish music???
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, ALAN E. KAYSER wrote:
> If I am being overly sensitive, perhaps it is with good reason.
> I see the word "Jewish" as the problem here, and though I know nothing
> of SG, I do know of being Jewish. Ask yourself, Patrice...would you
> have a problem if it was simply SG: Great Music?
it seems obvious to me that john zorn has never shied away from
controversy (telling madeline albright to "shut the fuck up", using
violent & sexual imagery in cover art, etc.), so i imagine that the
series was named just to stimulate this sort of conversation and thought.
what makes music jewish? or even what makes music great?
what if zorn had called "news for lulu" 1 & 2 the great jazz music
series? how could you argue that it wasn't jazz or wasn't great?
b
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #177
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