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From: Zorn List Digest
Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 3:39 PM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #157
Zorn List Digest Friday, November 14 1997 Volume 02 : Number 157
In this issue:
-
In Need of NEW music.
Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank
Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
doo-wop
BOSTONINTERESTED
Flying Mijinko Band
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: In Need of NEW music.
New Verve
Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: In Need of NEW music.
New Verve
Cecil wannabe
New Verve
Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz
Re: Cecil wannabe
Re: Cecil wannabe
Re: Cecil wallaby
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:01:38 -0800
From: Jason Tors <jtors@usinteractive.com>
Subject: In Need of NEW music.
Hello All,
I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and
there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their
recent prize CD purchase.
Private or public,
J.
**=B6* =86=905=F8N**T=F8=AE5*=B6=BA=BA
jasontors
- ->junior art director__usinteractive_212.685.3727
jtors@usinteractive.com
(=B4=B4=AE=B4=B4) (=B4=B4=AE=
=B4=B4)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:03:38 -0600
From: JRZ <zube@winternet.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
At 12:03 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Ockham's stubble wrote:
>
>> 2) Even if
>> this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't
>> that good?
>> you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their
>> being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop.
>
>But have they actually led many people to the 60's Davis group? That was
>my question, and it's not a joke. I don't have a problem with the
>Marsalis stuff as music; I'm just doubtful that the "It leads people to
>better music" defense is any more apt in Marsalis's case than in Kenny
>G's.
In college I had a few friends who were Wynton fans. Their exposure to him
made it easier for me to turn them on to Miles et al. It opened their ears
to jazz.
To tell the truth I agreed with Wynton in the 80's. All of the modern jazz
I was being exposed to was fusak crap. I didn't really care for his stuff
but at least it was listenable.
Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the
average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt" to
today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few decades
and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard
greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can catch
the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard.
zube
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:44:57 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <jwnarves@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank
> to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes). Any fans of doo-
> wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...??
...maybe Bob Marley and the Wailers? It always sounded bizzarely
doo-wopish to me.
- -jascha
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:41:42 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
>Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the
>average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt" to
>today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few decades
>and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard
>greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can catch
>the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard.
>
>zube
What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this
list?
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:53:47 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <jwnarves@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: doo-wop
> to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes). Any fans of doo-
> wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...??
...maybe Bob Marley and the Wailers? It always sounded bizzarely
doo-wopish to me.
- -jascha
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:58:20 -0500
From: jtalbot@massart.edu
Subject: BOSTONINTERESTED
IS ANYONE FROM THE BOSTON AREA LOOKING TO JOIN, FORM OR PLAY WITH AN
AVANT MPROV ENSAMBLE. I'M LOOKING TO PUT ONE TOGETHER FOR A SHOW IN
JANUARY.
ALSO ARE THERE ANY SAX PLAYERS INTERESTED IN WORKING WITH A VOCALIST ON
SOME PATTON/ZORN TYPE OF COLLABORATION? LET ME KNOW.
THANKS-
JASON
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:08:05 -0800
From: Jeff Spirer <jeffs@hyperreal.org>
Subject: Flying Mijinko Band
The Japan Foundation, which published this CD, has asked me to put
disclaimers on the web site about its availability, which I figured I would
do on both these lists since it has been talked about on the lists.
Please do not contact The Japan Foundation regarding availability or
purchase of this CD. It is not for sale, and is only available to certain
institutions involved in cultural exchange with Japan. It will not be sold
to indivudiuals or retailers.
I realize that this is disappointing since no-one told me what The Japan
Foundation's aims were with this recording, in fact I think that most of
the people involved with it didn't know. However, I would like to ask that
people respect their organization and its goals rather than have them call
Bill about me "promoting" the CD on the Internet. Thanks.
Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:19:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Knutboy@aol.com
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
New Robert Wyatt "Shleep", Squarepusher "Burningn' n tree" (compilation of
early singles and new cuts), Yabby U "Jesus Dread".
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:19:10 -0600
From: JRZ <zube@winternet.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
At 08:41 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote:
>What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this
>list?
>
>sZ
He obviously regards it as nonsense and noise. But then, so would 99% of
the music listening public. I'm not supporting his idea that Jazz should've
stopped in 1960.
but
My listening to the jazz greats (Trane, Dolphy, Miles) greatly helped me
appreciate Zorn's work. Wynton can point folks back to the same tradition.
Hopefully from there they can lose the mentality that Jazz is just some
mellow music that works great as a background for their cocktail party. If
not, they can have excellent taste in background music.
People spend too much time hating something for what it's not, instead of
appreciating it for what it is.
zube
If you were insinuating that my post was a bit off topic then I'll shut the
hell up right now.
btw I hear that that Zorn has nixed any future Ribot/Zorn/Medeski shows at
the Knit cause he's unhappy with the recent influx of hippies there to see
Medeski. It seems kinda silly but I've given up on trying to predict Zorn.
Any truth to this? Maybe they could just run a Patchouli check at the doors.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:31:18 -0600
From: JRZ <zube@winternet.com>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
At 10:01 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Jason Tors wrote:
>Hello All,
> I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and
>there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their
>recent prize CD purchase.
>Private or public,
>
A few gems I recently uncovered...
Ellery Eskelin - "The Sun Died" Ellery, Marc Ribot and Kenny Wolleson
playing tribute to some forgotten blues/soul jazz icon of the 60 that I'd
never heard of.
Happy Apple - "Blown Shockwaves.... (can't remember the title)" Two horn
bass/drum combo from Minneapolis that draws from the traditions of Dolphy
and Ornette with out rehashing the past. I heard a rumor that Zorn had some
interest in these guys but have no way of verifing this or if anything will
come out of it. This is one of my favorite discs of the year.
Not to mention the complete 61 Coltrane Vanguard Recordings which have
already been discussed here. Stellar!
oh well, back to lurk mode
zube
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:18:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Shepherd <rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jason Tors wrote:
> I was wondering if folks could suggest their
> recent prize CD purchase.
Since it was brought up on this list earlier, I thought that I might
comment that I picked up the Aerial M CD on Tuesday, and it is pretty damn
good. Much like quieter Slint stuff, but not so menacing. I usually
don't go in for the prettier stuff, but this record is very good. Just
thought that I would share. - Mike
"It's only romantic 'cause it never works."
- Harriet the Spy
*********************************
Mike Shepherd
rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu
Middle Tennessee State University
(615) 898-3652
*********************************
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:01:41 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
61 Coltrane Village Vanguard (I missed that discussion)
David Thomas--Monster box
Joe McPhee Po Music--Linear B
Arcana--Arc of the Testimony
Bob Dylan--Time Out Of Mind
Has anyone heard the Bergmann/Braxton/Brotzmann trio CD?
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:52:54 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
Jason Tors wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I have been lurking for a while, making some comments here and
> there. Since today is pay-day I was wondering if folks could suggest their
> recent prize CD purchase.
> Private or public,
> J.
My prize find has been the solo violin album by Carlos Zingaro simply
entitled 'Solo' on the in situ label in France. If you have any interest
in solo violin at all, you need to check this guy out! I believe all the
tunes are live improvisations recorded in some church. Really beautiful
music. It COMPLETELY blows Mark Feldman's 'Music For Violin Alone' on
Tzadik out of the water (and I like that disc quite a bit). This guy has
FRIGHTENING technique. You can find more about Zingaro at the European
Free Improvisers Page at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/ and the
page specifically on Zingaro at
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mzingaro.html. If you don't think
solo violin is your thing, check the page anyway because it has a
listing of other recordings he's done with various groups. See ya!
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500
From: Scott Chamberlin <chambest@cs.purdue.edu>
Subject: New Verve
I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all
packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does
anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the
work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked
very interesting.
Scott
chambest@cs.purdue.edu
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:09:52 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
>At 08:41 AM 11/14/97 -0800, Schwitterz wrote:
>>What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on
this
>>list?
>>
>>sZ
>
>zube
>
>If you were insinuating that my post was a bit off topic then I'll shut the
>hell up right now.
Funny how things get read into posts. I had been looking on Websites for
Marsalis' opinions about "avant-garde" music and couldn't find anything, so
decided to ask to see if you or anyone else knew.
I NEVER complain on ANY list about ANYTHING being off-topic. For my purposes
every topic is on topic on every list. I could care less about rules about
topic. I enjoy what people are saying who are interested in the kind of art
I am interested in whether they are talking about that art in particular or
not.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:56:57 -0600 (CST)
From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
Great new finds:
Base of Fiction, (self-titled)
Happy Family, Toscco
Optical*8, Germ
Univers Zero, Heresie
Miles Davis, Live-Evil (remastered)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:04:55 -0800
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
Schwitterz wrote:
>
> 61 Coltrane Village Vanguard (I missed that discussion)
> David Thomas--Monster box
> Joe McPhee Po Music--Linear B
> Arcana--Arc of the Testimony
> Bob Dylan--Time Out Of Mind
>
> Has anyone heard the Bergmann/Braxton/Brotzmann trio CD?
>
> sZ
>
> -
I got it and wasn't blown away. I'm no big fan of Bergman's but I give
him another chance every seven years or so--I remain unconvinced.
Braxton and Brotz give it a good go (THIS was the meeting I'd been
looking forward to!) and things gel occasionally but...
I love just the idea of pairing these two with (superficially) different
approaches to free music (all-out assault as opposed to considered
attack) and hope they'll reunite again; how about with Cecil instead of
one of many Cecil wannabees?
Brian O.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500
From: Scott Chamberlin <chambest@cs.purdue.edu>
Subject: New Verve
I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all
packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does
anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the
work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked
very interesting.
Scott
chambest@cs.purdue.edu
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:59:47 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Cecil wannabe
> how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees?
Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a
Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because
I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular).
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:43:10 -0500
From: Scott Chamberlin <chambest@cs.purdue.edu>
Subject: New Verve
I just saw at the store a bunch of verve rereleases; they were all
packaged in a bunch of different flourecent colored packages. Does
anyone have any information on any of the artists or the quality of the
work. I had not really heard of any of the artists, but they looked
very interesting.
Scott
chambest@cs.purdue.edu
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:17:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "j. ross" <jaross@comp.uark.edu>
Subject: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz
hey everyone,
I was reading a book that traced the roots of jazz through
early forms of blues. After giving the standard issue jazz musicians
whose music is mostly blues based i.e. coltrane, marsallis,
etc.etc....they made reference to avant-gard musicians like ornette
colman and a few others..(.no mention of zorn though :-( ) as being
blues based musicians....
Anway I was wondering if anyone has any comments on the
relationship of blues to avant-gard, and if they could recommend
anyone in this area to check out.....
cheerio--
J-
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:06:29 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
>I got it and wasn't blown away. I'm no big fan of Bergman's but I give
>him another chance every seven years or so--I remain unconvinced.
>Brian O.
I've only given Bergman one chance, and I'm one for one. The Fire Tales on
which he duets with Evan Parker is in my pantheon of satisfying recordings.
On the merits of that recording I wouldn't classify him as a Cecil wannabe,
but I've heard nothing else.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:11:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Blues fundamentals in Avant-jazz
One of the major strands in the jazz avant-garde, I'd say, has been a
resurrection of early jazz, blues, and R&B devices marginalized by
mainstream jazz from Armstrong onward. In particular, the distortion of
tone, deviation from conventional meter, and bending of pitch common to a
lot of free jazz is reminiscent of the use of these techniques in Delta
blues. Ornette Coleman is certainly a prime example here, and the blues
connection is particularly obvious in his late 50's/early 60's work. More
relevant to this list, you might check out Zorn's sax playing on John
Patton's _Minor Swing_, which is absolutely in line both with Zorn's free
playing and the tradition of "honking" blues and R&B saxophonists.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:33:30 -0800
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe
Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> > how about with Cecil instead of one of many Cecil wannabees?
>
> Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a
> Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because
> I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular).
>
> -Tom Pratt
Sure, though most all mentioned below owe a greater or lesser debt to
Mr. Taylor, their own musical self shines through (and I generally agree
with you about Ms. Crispell, excepting--largely--her work with Braxton
and the new ECM release of her performances of Annette Peacock's music,
which is very good). Anyway:
Muhal, Dave Burrell, Paul Bley (Carla too, I guess), Leo Cuypers, Henk
de Jonge, Frederic Rzewski (!), Irene Schweitzer (a close call, but she
usually comes through), Keith Tippett...more I'm sure.
One can argue the "freeness" of some of the above; I tend to be loose in
my interpretation of the term. I'd happily add Robin Holcomb to the list
(her 'Little Three' is one of the best solo piano releases I've heard in
the last five years) but I'd probably draw fire.
Depending on how strict a definition you want to put on "free" (an
intriguing concept!), the list could easily grow much shorter.
Brian O.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:18:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe
On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tom Pratt wrote:
> Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a
> Cecil wannabe
My standards for not being a mere wannabe are clearly not as high as
yours, but I'm having a damn hard time thinking of free pianists who don't
seem to have Taylor as a dominant influence. The only ones I've been able
to come up with off the top of my head are Paul Bley, Sun Ra, and Geri
Allen, but the latter two aren't primarily associated with free playing.
If you're willing to include avant-gardists who aren't really free players
at all, there's also Andrew Hill and Muhal Richard Abrams.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:16:17 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Cecil wallaby
>Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a
>Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because
>I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular).
>
> -Tom Pratt
I find Crispell to be an original voice. Have never heard a recording by her
yet that I did not like nor that sounded derivative of Cecil. I think the
similarities are superficial. Her phrasings and her dynamic range seem very
different than Cecil's, although more recently he seems to be moving in her
direction. Compositionally they are even more different, and the resulting
ensemble work is not in the least derivative. Same for Matthew Shipp and
Keith Tippett.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #157
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