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From:     Zorn List Digest
Sent:     Friday, November 14, 1997 5:15 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     Zorn List Digest V2 #156


Zorn List Digest       Friday, November 14 1997       Volume 02 : Number 156



In this issue:
-
       guts of a virgin
       Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank
       Re: Sigillum S.
       Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
       Joe Morris Trio live
       Re: Sigillum S.
       Re: Scores by Ikue Mori and Xtian Marclay
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: Forbidden Fruit--musical score
       Sanctuary
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: "Too much music" is never enough!
       Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:50:07 +0100 (MEZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: guts of a virgin

i sent that some days ago but it seems that it didnt reach the list..

just a question: i found guts of a virgin in a record store in
frankfurt...sure i bought it (on vinyl)..
question: is this any rare?

BJOERN

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:17:52 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Oh No! Stanley, Wynton, Andrew Speight (who?) and Frank

Anyone care to explain how/why Stanley Crouch moved from championing
David Murray to championing Wynton Marsalis?

I used to be very fond of Black Codes From The Underground - maybe I
still am, but I lost it in a burglary, and haven't heard it for
years.  Sure, its points of reference were the Davis Quintets of the
60s, but what the hell.

Marsalis played the Proms in London about four years ago, doing one
"act" of In This House, On This Morning, and damn fine it was too,
tho' the scene-stealer was his trombone player (can't remember his
name, but he was a regular band member at the time) ...

Also, in 1993 or 1994, I heard a superb Australian also player called
Andrew Speight (I think) playing in a tiny after hours jam session in
Edinburgh during the festival - he was a runaway train, but somehow
never actually fell off the tracks.  A week later, just before he
went home to Australia, he was doing the backstreets at the Brecon
jazz Festival, where Wynton was headlining, and Wynton brought him
onstage to join the group for a few numbers (I wasn't there, but
was raving about Speight to somebody a few weeks later, who had
been at Brecon and recognised my description.  A few numbers were
broadcast on BBC a month later, so I was able to confirm this).  Has
anybody heard anything of an Andrew Speight in the past four years??

That said, I've heard some right old guff (musically and
otherwise) from Wynton Marsalis ... (I don't watch Burt Reynolds
films, but you can't take his Deliverance performance away from him)

What I actually logged in to comment on was this: I'm intrigued by
the way in which a number of people regarded Zappa as a sign-post
towards modern classical music only.  Didn't anyone get into Eric
Dolphy or Ayler because of Zappa (the first time I heard the opening
bars of Hat And Beard, I burst out laughing and said, so that's where
Zappa got it from!)?  More recently, I got into some 50s doo-wop
records, whence I was amazed to discover that Frank's concept
of backing vocals was much less original than I had thought, and in
some cases was much less weird than what came out back then (I knew
Rubber Biscuit from Scorsese's Mean Streets, but I'm referring here
to more superficially "normal" doo-wop love tunes).  Any fans of doo-
wop backing vocals have any recommendations for me ...??

Sean Wilkie



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:57:38 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Sigillum S.

>I'm seeking information on this CD. I understand it's part of a 3cd set.
>Is it in itself a full length CD? Is Laswell on it at all? Is it good?

Which CD is it that you're looking for?  Sigillum S is an Italian
power electronics group that have been around since the early 80's
and have a number of CDs & records out ... Laswell is not on any of
them, but he did work with Eraldo Bernocchi (Sigillum S member &
founder) and Mick Harris on the "Equations Of Eternity" project,
and I believe he has done (or will be doing soon) some work with
Bernocchi on a few film soundtracks.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:23:38 GMT
From: "Ockham's stubble" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)

   Christopher Hamilton asked:

   2) Even if
   this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't
   that good?
you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their
being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop.
- -b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:02:03 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Joe Morris Trio live

We went to see the Joe Morris Trio last night, and the concert was
phenomenal.  All three players have astounding technique and listen to
each other very well.  Their tour of the eastern US is terminating
this week with dates in Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, and Rochester --
you can get exact dates and venues on the Knitting Factory home page
(thus the Zorn connection, in case you were wondering).  They played
one 90-minute set with about eight different pieces, so they all had
time to stretch.

Morris plays very fast lines, with very few chords and to my ears
avoiding most kinds of harmony (although his compositions have
noticeable free sections and equally noticeable resolution points).
His sound is relatively traditional, in that most of the time you know
he's playing a guitar.  He has an interesting tremolo which he plays
while other band members are soloing, and in some of the quieter free
sections he scrapes his pick along the strings, but mostly it's clean
and fast.

The drummer, Jerome Deupree, is one of the few drummers I've ever seen
who pays this much attention to detail, caring equally about the decay
as well as the attack, using different kinds of sticks (often
simultaneously) and different parts of the kit.  There is seldom any
suggestion of a beat per se, but rhythmic patterns which seem random
but which reflect Morris's lines extremely sympathetically.  The bass
player, Nate McBride, plays with an intensity I've rarely seen before,
both bowing and picking.  The opening number featured Morris lines,
McBride filling the room with long bowed chords, and Deupree dancing
on his kit with brushes, and this set the tone for the whole set.

In short, this group is jaw-dropping amazing.  If you get a chance to
catch one of the remaining tour dates, or to see them in their home
town of Boston, you should take advantage of the opportunity.


Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]


Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: Sean Terwilliger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sigillum S.

Patrick Carey wrote:
>
> >I'm seeking information on this CD. I understand it's part of a 3cd set.
> >Is it in itself a full length CD? Is Laswell on it at all? Is it good?
>
> Which CD is it that you're looking for?  Sigillum S is an Italian
> power electronics group that have been around since the early 80's
> and have a number of CDs & records out ... Laswell is not on any of
> them, but he did work with Eraldo Bernocchi (Sigillum S member &
> founder) and Mick Harris on the "Equations Of Eternity" project,
> and I believe he has done (or will be doing soon) some work with
> Bernocchi on a few film soundtracks.
>
> -Patrick
>
> -

I'm not even sure of the title. I was mostly wondering if, like Ashes,
Laswell was a part of it.

Thanks,

Sean

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:53:47 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Scores by Ikue Mori and Xtian Marclay

On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> from the news page at tzadik.com:
>
>               Coming In January 1998
>
>                     IKUE MORI - B/SIDE
>                             Featuring:
>   Anthony Coleman, Erik Friedlander, Andy Haas, Kato Hideki, Zeena
>               Parkins, Tenko, David Watson, Ikue Mori.
>  Ikue Mori's electric percussion is quite simply some of the most
>  original and exciting work happening in electronic music today.
>
>  For her third Tzadik release, Ikue has assembled a varied collection
>  of her most interesting tracks originally recorded for use in the films of
>  award winning avant garde filmmaker Abigail Child. Erik Friedlander,

There's a programme of short films by Abigail Child screening here in a
couple weeks. I think one of them ("Mayhem") has a score by
Xtian Marclay - but I'm probably wrong. Anyway, I'll post some details
after I scope 'em.

I've heard about another short film, "Wax", essentially composed of the
sounds and images of Marclay wreaking his usual havoc on vinyl records.
Does anyone have any more details on this?

Cheers,

Jim

"To be a good revolutionary, we must pass all academic exams"
- - Dusan Makaveyev


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:24:10 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> Personally, I think it's more likely that Zorn, like three of the eight
> composers mentioned above, will become a part of the jazz tradition than
> the classical tradition, for several reasons: 1. Some of his music is
> obviously jazz.  2. Much of his music involves a lot of improvisation.  3.
> He's American.  And, most importantly, 4. He plays saxophone.  (These are,
> of course, major reasons his records usually wind up in the jazz bins
> now.)
>
Any distinction between jazz and classical music is becoming
increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon that much of the most
interesting music being made now evades just about all of those
conventional genre pigeonholes.

Its a funny thing; I remember a couple years back going into the newly
opened HMV store, in the CBD of one of the state capitals down here. You
know the drill - a sprawling-aisled supermarket type affair; something
*for everyone*. Out of curiosity I looked in the jazz racks under 'Z'; and
was gratified to find some of Zorn's work lurking there. But it was Locus
Solus and Kristallnacht!

>      Mind you, I think it's at least as likely that it won't be plausible
> to distinguish between those traditions in a hundred years.  And I have
> very little faith in the ability of anyone to predict what will be seen as
> important about our time in the future.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:28:05 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Forbidden Fruit--musical score

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gordon Fitzell wrote:
>
> Any suggestions on how I can obtain a copy of the score for Zorn's
> Forbidden Fruit? I am discussing the work in my Ph.D. thesis at UBC in
> Vancouver (my area of research is moment music), but I can't find the
> score anywhere.
>
> I've emailed Tzadik as well as several unofficial John Zorn home page
> oweners, but no luck yet--who publishes his scores?!

So far as I know, all Zorn's work is self-published, via Theatre of
Musical Optics. Sorry I can't tell you any more

Cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:39:54 EST
From: "MBS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sanctuary

Dave Douglas has this new two-cder out..
can someone tell me what it is like .. etc?
Also about his other solo material.. private email if ya like.
Matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:46:20 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]


Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:57:52 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

Please forgive the empty message a minute ago.  Loose fingers...

>>>>> "James" == James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]> writes:

    James> Any distinction between jazz and classical music is
    James> becoming increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon
    James> that much of the most interesting music being made now
    James> evades just about all of those conventional genre
    James> pigeonholes.

I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the
previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up
with jazz, classical, avant-garde, music from around the world, etc.
I recently acquired a CD called Gushwachs, which features
'electroacoustic improvisation' by jazz improvisers Mats Gustafsson,
Sten Sandell, Raymond Strid, and Philpp Wachsmann.  I got it from
Cadence, which usually means it's jazz (which the personnel would
confirm).  But it's the closest I've ever heard to Stockhausen's
intuitive music, so is it classical?  It doesn't really sound like
either one, so is it avant garde?  Hmm...

I remind myself that most of the great 'classical' composers, at least
up until the late romantics, were great improvisers.  Beethoven merely
sketched in the piano parts of some of his piano and orchestra works,
cadenzas in concerti were improvised, not to mention solo performers
like Chopin and Lizst.  Back improvised three-voice fugues on themes
he'd never heard before.  For one, I'm thrilled to see improvisation
coming back to 'classical' music, regardless of how hard it is to
categorize a CD.




Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]


Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:22:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:24:10 +1100 (EST)  James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I think it's more likely that Zorn, like three of the eight
> > composers mentioned above, will become a part of the jazz tradition than
> > the classical tradition, for several reasons: 1. Some of his music is
> > obviously jazz.  2. Much of his music involves a lot of improvisation.  3.
> > He's American.  And, most importantly, 4. He plays saxophone.  (These are,

But being white, his chance of being in the classical bin are higher than
somebody like Braxton (who is doomed to be in the jazz section forever...).

Anyway, when I see what is available these days in the classical section of
some stores, I feel happy that Zorn (and Braxton, Sharp, Breuker, etc, to list
few people who write avant compositions in a "classical" sense), are not there...
Unfortunately, when I check the jazz sections, I feel the same also...

> > of course, major reasons his records usually wind up in the jazz bins
> > now.)
> >
> Any distinction between jazz and classical music is becoming
> increasingly more difficult to define. I'd reckon that much of the most
> interesting music being made now evades just about all of those
> conventional genre pigeonholes.

I wholeheartly agree with you! The new generation of musicians/artists seem to
ignore such classification (what is an individual with an academic position
and a business card where it is written "composer"?).

I read something funny about Ben Neill. He used to be the music director for
the Kitchen. At a moment, he decided to invite DJs to play at the Kitchen and
the board of directors there got freaked out (they might have been afraid that
they would stain the carpet of write grafittis in the toilets, I guess). This
went so far that Neill had to leave the Kitchen (and God knows for how long
he had been there!). Fortunately, he is back and the new board of directors
seems to be more open to other genres of music.

> Its a funny thing; I remember a couple years back going into the newly
> opened HMV store, in the CBD of one of the state capitals down here. You
> know the drill - a sprawling-aisled supermarket type affair; something
> *for everyone*. Out of curiosity I looked in the jazz racks under 'Z'; and
> was gratified to find some of Zorn's work lurking there. But it was Locus
> Solus and Kristallnacht!
>
> >      Mind you, I think it's at least as likely that it won't be plausible
> > to distinguish between those traditions in a hundred years.  And I have
> > very little faith in the ability of anyone to predict what will be seen as
> > important about our time in the future.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:51:52 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "Too much music" is never enough!

"If music be the food of love - play on. Give me excess of it!"
- - Wild Bill Shakespeare

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Ash Doyle wrote:

>      I am amused by the people who have been commenting that musicians
> in this genre have been putting out too many recordings.  These
> comments seem bordering on complaint.   You should be glad that the
> musicians you enjoy are putting out recordings reguarly and so

Oh; the actual volume of the music being released is cause for nothing but
happiness - I can only hope it increases. My whinging was (or
was intended to be; y'know, I get a bit inchoate at the best of
times) specifically directed to the fact that Zorn hasn't radically
altered his style in, oh, six months now :-)

I got no doubt I'd feel a lot less impatient if I was ctually in a postion
to hear him playing. I dunno.

cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:03:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Ockham's stubble wrote:

>    2) Even if
>    this is true in some sense, why is that a good thing if the music wasn't
>    that good?
> you're joking. regardless of your take on the vsop group, their
> being a lead to miles 60's quintet is one why, full stop.

But have they actually led many people to the 60's Davis group?  That was
my question, and it's not a joke.  I don't have a problem with the
Marsalis stuff as music; I'm just doubtful that the "It leads people to
better music" defense is any more apt in Marsalis's case than in Kenny
G's.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:11:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "k.   drudge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

> I've started experimenting with storing CDs by genre instead of the
> previous method of simply alphabetical by artist, and I've ended up
> with jazz, classical, avant-garde, music from around the world, etc.
> I recently acquired a CD called Gushwachs, which features
> 'electroacoustic improvisation' by jazz improvisers Mats Gustafsson,
> Sten Sandell, Raymond Strid, and Philpp Wachsmann.  I got it from
> Cadence, which usually means it's jazz (which the personnel would
> confirm).  But it's the closest I've ever heard to Stockhausen's
> intuitive music, so is it classical?  It doesn't really sound like
> either one, so is it avant garde?  Hmm...

The best filing method i've ever heard of is colour-of-spine.

keldon



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #156
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