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From:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest
Sent:     Thursday, November 06, 1997 11:33 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #152


John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 152



In this issue:

       Re: John Zorn List V2 #148
       Re: Bailey + d'n'b)
       "Too much music"
       Re: Les Granules
       Re:
       Re:
       Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno?
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)
       Re: Heterotaxis
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air)
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)
       Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant
       Re: 1984

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:44:10 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #148

On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:17:30 -1000 Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>but wait - have you heard "euclid's nightmare" by  previte/zorn on
>bobby's new
>depth of field label...  it's NOT achingly beautiful, these guys are
>having
>too much fun!
>--
>Dan Kuehn
>resident manager
>Kailua Maui Gardens
>
When I first heard this album I was downright Suprised at how much I like
it.  I think it's probably because you(I) can TELL how much fun they're
having..
I think that's something that's hard to get across.



********************************************************
"'Higgeldy-Piggeldy' means 'A real mess'."
M. Binkley
********************************************************

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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:45:40 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re: Bailey + d'n'b)

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:19 -0800 [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel) writes:

>And, I might add, this is one f*cking excellent record. It made me
>mourn
>William's death all the more, his playing here is his best in several
>decades.
>
He certainly doesn't sound like someone about to die, does he?   A truly
jaw-dropping performance.


********************************************************
"'Higgeldy-Piggeldy' means 'A real mess'."
M. Binkley
********************************************************

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:03:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Ash Doyle <[e-mail]>
Subject: "Too much music"

     I am amused by the people who have been commenting that musicians
in this genre have been putting out too many recordings.  These
comments seem bordering on complaint.   You should be glad that the
musicians you enjoy are putting out recordings reguarly and so
frequently.  Of course their is a small audience for this type of
music, it appeals to only a small group of people.  But this is more
reason for the artist to record more albums.  Each album is selling
relatively few copies and therefore the artist need to put out more
recordings to make a sufficient ammount of income.   Hey, They have to
get it from somewhere.  Also, the musicians in this genre usually play
many different styles of music and put out seperate albums for each
style of music they play, They rarely mix styles on one  album,
although I would enjoy that.  All Im trying to say is the small
audience of this type of music should be glad that they have the
opportunity to listen to such a large ammount of the music they enjoy.




_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 12:33:49 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Les Granules

>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:25:08 -0700
>From: [e-mail] (mike ladd)
>Subject: question?
>
>Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules".  The piece Avez-vouz Travaille? appears
>on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD vol. 3.
>Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene Lussier with "no
>overdubbing and minimal editing".

Check out this book: 'Plunderphonics, Pataphysics and Pop Mechanics' by
Andrew Jones.  There's a good chapter in there about them.

Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
Warped perspectives on all types of music
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

Perfect Sound Forever
Warped perspectives on all types of music
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:31:46 -0500
From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:

>I almost hate to say anything here, after the whole Zappa thing (that really
>stirred up a lot of comments. . . almost approaching excitement), but. . . I
>may be the only person on this list who hasn't (yet) gotten the whole Derek
>Bailey thing. He just plain doesn't do it for me. And whatever Zorn does on
>that disk seems appropriate for the setting, but also just bores me. So in
>answer to your question I suppose it depends on what you think of Bailey,
>who IMO seems to be the guy in charge of that set.

I hafta say I agree with you.  I just got Saisoro the other day, and had
high hopes for it after all I've been reading on the list about him lately.
Some of the stuff is cool on it, but I find a vast majority of it to be,
well, generic in the sense of the worst King Crimson jams (and I am a
Crimson fan).  I found the ruins themselves to be more interesting....

which brings me to some comments I had wanted to make on some of the
threads of the last couple of days.

The Zappa discussion thing...someone mentioned (and Igot such a flurry of
postings this morning, as I quickly retrace them I can't find the one I'm
looking for) that someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too
much into account his influences, his ideals and personality and his
attempts at innovations and did not take enough into account his music
itself.  In other words, they argued that the bottom line is the music
itself despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding it.

This strikes me as relveant to a recent thread that I believe surrounded
the discussion of the Parachute box set.  Someone in that discussion had
mentioned that Zorn was less interested in how the music sounded than he
was in how it was created.  AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate
others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the reason why.  If
you bake a cake in a new and innovative way, does it matter if the cake
tastes like a tire?  I mean, it's cool to try these things, but shouldn't
we be not afraid to admit that many of the times they are experiments and
most experiments fail? As a friend of mine likes to say, "I have not
failed.  I have successfully discovered 1,200 ideas that don't
work."
 --- Thomas Edison

Now, none of which I have just said means that I think Zorn puts out too
much material, or indicates that I will not continue to buy experimental
stuff or improv stuff, but, you know, that whole "Emperor's New Clothes"
thing always comes to mind.

My first experience seeing Zorn live, after getting into Masada and Naked
City, etc. was seeing Painkiller at the Middle East in Cambridge, MA.  They
played less then forty minutes and it really struck me as pure noise,
because it didn't seem like any of the three were reacting to one another
(which seems to me to be the key to group improv).  In fact, Zorn came out
and started the encore by eating and crinkling a bag of potato chips into a
mike with a little delay.  Yet, the show was as packed as I've ever seen
the Middle East, AND most of the people in attendance acted, as they left,
as if they'd just seen a vision, "Oh my god, that was the most amazing
thing!!!..."

So it makes me wonder sometimes, when we quickly digest all of it and say,
"oooh that is soo cool" and then dis on Frank for not being outlandish
enough.  And, though I appreciate him, I'm not a particularly big Frank
fan.  Like Crhis Hamilton, his lyrics do sometimes make me uncomfortable in
the way R. Crumbs work can.

- -Chris



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:57:52 EST
From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:

Hello all....

This whole discussion around Zappa, his influences, and Zorn ant his attitude
about not being too interested in what the music sounds like as much as how it
was composed reminded me of something I thought of after watching Quentin
Tarrentino's "From Dusk Til Dawn" - not every new idea is a good idea. Just
thought I had to throw that in....

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:12:04 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno?

The answer to what is going on with Eno is answered in today's LA Times
interview with him. If there's interest I'll post it.

sZ



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:26:38 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:27:21 +1100 (EST)  James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
> I am sometimes wondering what kind of music is aging poorly when I see all
> the fads about cocktail/disco/lounge/space...
>
Well I dunno about this statement; didn't Zorn have a little Esquivel on
his Radio Hour promo-disc? This *exoterica* field is home to more than a
few rare gems; some people were digging them long before the current fad.

> > Don't get me wrong - I love Zorn's work. I just wish he'd push himself a
> > bit more. From my remote vantage down here in Aus, it just seems like he's
>   ^^^^^^^^
> Are you serious when you are saying that?
>
Sure I am! I know the guy works like an absolute maniac - he must have a
small-army of sound-alike dopplegangers to meet his schedule. But what
initially attracted me to Zorn's work was his invention, and my own
totally thwarted expectations. Ives says something instructive about
the necessity to forsake the comfort of a personal idiom, reject your
favourite technical colourings - "when he becomes conscious that his
style is his personal own - then it may be that the value of his
substance is not growing; that he is trading an inspiration for bad
habit, and finally, that he is reaching fame, permanence or some other
undervalue..." (from p137 of the Cowell's book)

OK; so Ives was a romantic. (But I'll hunt down that quote - that I
alluded to a ways back - where Zorn hisself says essentially the same
thing). I just feel like Zorn has been treading the path of least
resistance of late. And I'm disappointed - I feel a bit like
he's avered on the stylistic gauntlets he'd been throwing our way for
years. This doesn't mean I've discounted Zorn's future works - on the
contrary, I'm looking forward.

> I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself".
> Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that?
>
Well, I used to have a v high regard for the work of Otomo Yoshihide. But
right now I feel the same way about him.

> > the market, without any regard for whether its actually any good. Lucky
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Among the artists who "over-produce", do you know of any who keeps the quality
> at the top with *EVERY* thing they release?
>
I used to feel that way about Zorn's work!

> Also, there is the possibility (not to dismiss) that what will really last
> from Zorn's production might be something that does not appeal to you at
> all. We are all enamoured of various kinds of music. Has any of us the
> slighest clue of what will stay with time? What might appear to us as
> breakthrough, might end up as pure gimmick. And the little record that nobody
> took seriously because of its lack of "breakthrough" might happen to be
> the one people will really play and remember in 20 years. Why? Maybe
> because talent was behind its genesis, and not "innovation-at-any-price".
> But sure, how boring such record looks like right now.

I agree completely. Popularity of a work in its own time can mean it has
not-much meaning for future listeners. Conversely; a work that is hated by
contemporary audiences can often find  willing listeners years later. But
so what? Plenty of music is useless in any era!
>
> But I keep on forgetting how comfortable the "consummer seat" position
> is: just waiting for being entertained. And no pity for the artist who
> fails to come up with new tricks with every record.
>
That's one way of looking at it, sure. And the whole demand for novelty is
just the extrapolation of modern marketing techniques for white goods.
But 'entertainment' is the last thing I want, or need, from Zorn; I'm
interested in challenging, creative music.
>
> Of course, it is always the "yet-to-come" stuff that is the best :-).
> What makes you think that this stuff would be better that what Zorn has
> been working on recently (besides the fact that it is not on record)?
>
Because it represents, to some extent, uncharted territory - both for the
artist, and for his audience.

Of course; none of this really matters, and its not like Zorn will -or
should - pay any attention to these postings. These are just my own
feelings about his recent work in relation to the larger corpus of his
music.

Cheers,

Jim

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:38:19 -0800
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)

At 09:21 AM 11/6/97 -0500, Caleb Deupree wrote:

>Second the opinion that this is great.  Only Laswell and Williams are
>on every cut, and the others have assorted changes in personnel.  The
>Buckethead cuts are obviously Buckethead, and while on first listening
>I thought they were very out of place, I've grown used to them after
>repeated listenings.  The other cuts sound a lot like electric Miles,
>with Skopelitis providing the harmonic wash that the keyboardists did
>in the earlier band.

There are echoes of a lot of things - at times, I find that Bill sounds
surprisingly Jaco-like.  Buckethead sounds like Voodoo Child era Hendrix.
Nicky plays like Sonny Sharrock.

Tony Williams plays like Tony Williams.

>
>It makes me wonder why this is an Arcana album, because it sounds very
>different from the first one.  But somewhere there has been a recent
>discussion of the casualness with which Laswell names his projects, so
>go figure.

Some of the projects do have a "center," for instance, Praxis always has
Buckethead, excluding the thirteen year old 1984.  The idea behind Arcana
was a series of ensembles built around Tony Williams.  I don't think Bill
will ever use the Arcana name again.

Your shill and ambient hobby boy (rmb readers will know these references),



Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:46:34 -0800
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Heterotaxis

At 09:58 PM 11/5/97 -0800, Dave Trenkel wrote:

>On a related note, I've been listening to an advance copy of "Panthalassa",
>Laswell's remix of electric Miles. It's a terrific record. It sounds
>absolutely within Miles' original concept, only with much better sound than
>any of the original records. Michael Henderson's bass playing has never
>sounded clearer, and I think he is one of the unsung masters of the
>instrument. Given the minor firestorm that the announcement of this record
>caused on r.m.bluenote, I think it's pretty amusing that the result is so
>respectful.

Well as I repeatedly pointed out on rmb, the primary antagonist in the rmb
discussion had never heard _Panthalassa_ and implied things like hip hop
beats mixed into it.  There would have been no firestorm if ignorance
wasn't the word of the year over there.  Everyone I know who has heard it,
and likes electric Miles, likes it.

Shill, ambient hobby boy, and heterotaxonomist,


Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:46:23 -0800
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air)

At 11:22 AM 11/6/97 +0100, Friedrich Feger wrote:

>Chris Hamilton said that there's a positive effect of Zorn's popularity for
>other musicians too by booking him as attention-drawing guest star or
>something like that. I really agree to this point; it cannot be
>underestimated how important it is for a creative circle to have a "star"
>among them. Without having calculated I'm pretty sure that it's a net
>profit for other musicians.

This is true if the "star" always makes sure to bring new artists into the
circle.  One of the things I thought the Clash did quite well on their
first American tour was exactly this - there had to be a relatively unknown
local band on each of their tour dates.  (They also insisted on a black
band opening, which I think was mostly Bo Diddley on that tour; the (Young)
Rascals ("Groovin", "Good Lovin'", that band) also did this once they were
successful.)  Hopefully Zorn understands the importance to both the
audience and to new musicians...

Shill, ambient hobby boy, heterotaxonomist, and (oxy)moron,


Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:54:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (even more hot air)

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:26:38 +1100 (EST)  James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >
> > I would be very curious to know an artist that you think is "pushing himself".
> > Could you drop a couple of names for us to know what you mean by that?
> >
> Well, I used to have a v high regard for the work of Otomo Yoshihide. But
> right now I feel the same way about him.

The only name that you mention is not even doing it for you.
Does it mean, if I understand well, that nobody is currently pushing
himself, according to you (I assume that if there was a least one who is
meeting your expections, you would have been more than happy to mention
him)?

I find that fairly strange. Could it be simply that music made right now
has moved to territories that do not mean anything to you? That there are
many people "pushing themselves", but that their music does not click to
you the way it used?

Could it be that the problem is only with you :-). That you are trying to
look for new music following old schemes (the ones you got hooked on a
long time ago).

Another explanation is that maybe the world does not meet your
expectations. Which, I agree, would be a sad state of affair :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:31:17 +0100 (MEZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant

>
> anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings?
>
for the start there are some really good compilations like:
- -"A journey into drum n bass"
- -"Lost in space vol I-III"

there is some real good stuff by Squarepusher (best CD: "Feed me weird
things"....a must have CD)


about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love
them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really
gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa.........
but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop
discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???)

BJOERN

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 13:42:30 -0500
From: Richard Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 1984

David Brunelle wrote:
> Jeff Spirer (I think) said that the owner of Subharmonic was in the
> process of obtaining some of Laswell's Celluloid recordings. The point being that Jeff
> said that the artists were getting no royalties from the releases.
> Obviously, it's a personal decision, but no matter how much I really
> want to but some of the hard to find early Laswell releases, I'd rather
> keep searching 2nd hand shops than put money in the pocket of a typical
> music business sleaze as this person appears to be.

    At the risk of sounding like Mr. Matarazzo's defense attorney, I'm a
bit
confused as to peoples attitudes toward this subject. At some point in
time, Laswell must have made the decision to sell the rights to the
recordings in question. If he neglected, for whatever reason, to
negotiate future royalty payments, whose fault is that? . Its certainly
not a case of a naive artist being taken advantage of, since Bill was
well aware of Karakos' (Celluloid) reputation for questionable business
practices, which date back to the days of  BYG/Actuel/Charly.
     This is not the 1950's. When an artists decides to sell, or assign his
rights, whether its publishing, mechanical or synchronization, they do
so for their own reasons(and at their own peril). So if Subharmonic
legally obtains the rights to a recording , can it be reasonably
expected they would pay for royalties that the artist previously signed
away?
     Not a flame, just my 2c...if I'm in error on the paticulars, perhaps
Jeff can correct me.



- -

------------------------------

End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #152
********************************************

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