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From:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest
Sent:     Thursday, November 06, 1997 5:04 PM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #153


John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 153



In this issue:

       Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant
       expectations
       Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant
       Re: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno?
       Metal Machine Music
       Blessing . . .
       Re:Lussier and friends
       Re: Heterotaxis
       Re: Harras/Yankees/Lulu
       chorus
       Re: In defense of Gentle Giant
       Re:Bailey & d'n'b
       Re:
       Re: expectations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:39:30 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant

>about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love
>them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really
>gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa.........
>but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop
>discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???)
>
>BJOERN

Yes. Let's start discussing music we have no reaction to.

sZ
>
>-
>
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:59:53 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: expectations

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Barrett <[e-mail]> writes:

    Chris> someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too
    Chris> much into account his influences, his ideals and
    Chris> personality and his attempts at innovations and did not
    Chris> take enough into account his music itself.  In other words,
    Chris> they argued that the bottom line is the music itself
    Chris> despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding
    Chris> it.

To a point, I agree, but there are also the cases where a piece of
music is interesting because we know the identity of the artist.  For
example, would we all have the same reaction to, say, Redbird if it
had been Zappa?  or Pierre Boulez?  Miles?  an unknown band from <fill
in some obscure location> shipped on cassette with only a photocopied
insert?  What if the piece of music in question was Leng T'che?

We unavoidably bring a set of expectations to the music we like based
on past experiences, and those expectations frame what we hear in the
new music.  Part of the enjoyment of Zorn is that he does confound
expectations, but the expectation is derived from it being Zorn, so
the zing goes both ways.  The disappointment of a lot of pop music is
based on the fact that the music sounds exactly what I expect.

And Zorn is fulfilling another part of confounding expectations with
his A&R work with Avant and Tzadik, where he presents artists with
whom he doesn't actually play, artists which we probably would not
have found or purchased if they hadn't had this association.  I
recently acquired Fujeida's plant music album, even after the new age
characterization that it got on this list.  Well, it's not your
mother's new age music, for sure.  Everything on it is in just
intonation or some even more bizarre tuning, and this is initially
very unsettling.  It was not at all what I expected, but because I
liked the first Fujeida and because he's on Tzadik (and because
sometimes new age music isn't totally objectionable), I felt
comfortable taking a chance with it.

    Chris> This strikes me as relevant to a recent thread that I
    Chris> believe surrounded the discussion of the Parachute box set.
    Chris> Someone in that discussion had mentioned that Zorn was less
    Chris> interested in how the music sounded than he was in how it
    Chris> was created.  AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate
    Chris> others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the
    Chris> reason why.

There's nothing wrong with having a story to go with the music.  This
increases the enjoyment.  I love the story of how Cynical Hysterie
Hour was finally released, and every time I listen to it, some part of
me thinks antagonistic thoughts about large multi-national
blood-sucking corporations.  The DMG catalog mentions that Joey Baron
played bags of leaves on Absinthe -- makes me want to go listen to it
again, because that album remains puzzling to me (and I love it for
that).  Frederic Rzewski's masterpiece The People United has an
improvised section, which is sometimes present on recordings,
sometimes not.  If I know it's there, I recognize it as improvisation
and listen to it one way, but if I don't know this, I listen to it
differently, as if it is part of the composition.  Et cetera.


Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]
Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:08:08 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: d'n'b and Gentle Giant

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:31:17 +0100 (MEZ)  BJOERN wrote:
>
> >
> > anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings?
> >
> for the start there are some really good compilations like:
> -"A journey into drum n bass"
> -"Lost in space vol I-III"
>
> there is some real good stuff by Squarepusher (best CD: "Feed me weird
> things"....a must have CD)
>
>
> about Gentle Giant: yeah they are great but who cares...i mean i love
> them but these discussions about Zappa and Gentle Giant and stuff really
> gets on my nerves...anyway i also love Zappa.........
> but i guess everyone on this list loves a lot of music so we should stop
> discussing what we like and what we dont like (shouldnt we???)

And what is left?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:08:07 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Frank Frank Frank, What About Eno?

>>>>> "Schwitterz" == Schwitterz  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Schwitterz> The answer to what is going on with Eno is answered in
    Schwitterz> today's LA Times interview with him. If there's
    Schwitterz> interest I'll post it.

You can get there by going to www.latimes.com and searching for eno.

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]
Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:23:53 -0500
From: "Zeke's Distribution Corp." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Metal Machine Music

Howdy!

I've been lurking way too long, and after the flurry of postings about =
Zappa, Gentle Giant, etc. I thought that I might be able to stir up a =
little more dust, by asking what people think about Metal Machine Music =
by Lou Reed.

I first heard it about 15 years ago, and at that time thought it was =
kooky and weird. Got around to listening to bits and pieces of it again =
this past summer (is anybody out there who has heard the it all the way =
through?), and it struck me just HOW avant guard it was, and if it had =
been released in the 90's he might not have gotten out of his contract. =
It suddenly "clicked" as to what Thurston Moore listened to while he was =
a teenager.

Just to make things clear. I'm talking avant guard for Pop/Rock 'n' =
Roll/Western Hemisphere/Radio fodder music.

I realize that this is not "on topic" at all, but the list has suddenly =
gotten way more fun. I apologize to anybody who doesn't like it.

Chris Hand
[e-mail]


=00

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Shepherd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Blessing . . .

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Steve Smith wrote:

> Additionally New Yorkers are blessed with so much to possibly do almost
> every night of the year that many tend to take it all for granted and
> will frequently see nothing instead.

Please, heed Mr. Smith's words.  Coming from a guy who has had to drive
from Nashville to Knoxville (a good 3 hours) to see any good jazz (with
the exception of Wayne Horvitz in Nashville), please don't take your
priveleged geographical arrangement for granted.

        "It's only romantic 'cause it never works."
                - Harriet the Spy

*********************************
Mike Shepherd
[e-mail]
Middle Tennessee State University
[phone]
*********************************



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:59:37 -0500
From: Alain Potvin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Lussier and friends

At 04:25 06/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules".  The piece Avez-vouz Travaille? appears
>on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD vol. 3.
>Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene Lussier with "no
>overdubbing and minimal editing".
>
>thanks for any info

IT's coming from the CD:

 Au rayaume du silencieux (Ambience magn=E9tique 018).=20

 I also have some goodLP's: Soyez vigilants, restez vivants! (vol 1-2) =20

In english "avez vous travaill=E9" means: did you worked?  The lyrics are th=
e
text on the card that you complete every two weeks for Unemployment Canada!=
=20

They really have a good sense of humor. The best work from these
Montreal-based musiciens is=20

Ren=E9 Lussier "le tr=E9sor de la langue" Lussier drove Quebec by car lookin=
g
for interview with peoples, my english is too bad to explain much... in
brief, he did he's music with the musicallity of the french language. It's
really well done. It's probably less interesting if you don't understand
french. (anyway, it's difficult to french people outside Quebec! )
Jerome Derome, Lussier, Frith, tanguay, and others are on the CD. Bob
Ostertag did some work too. =20





>*********************************************************
>* Michael J. Ladd ([e-mail])                    *
>* Sonic Mutaliation/Audio Abuse/Engineering/Composition *
>*********************************************************
>
>
>
>-
>
>
Alain Potvin
1296 Julien
St-Felicien
Quebec, Canada

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:33:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Heterotaxis

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Dave Trenkel wrote:

> On a related note, I've been listening to an advance copy of "Panthalassa",
> Laswell's remix of electric Miles. It's a terrific record. It sounds
> absolutely within Miles' original concept, only with much better sound than
> any of the original records.

I haven't heard the Laswell mixes yet, though I await them with baited
breath.  But to my ears Teo Macero's sound damned good on good vinyl or a
20-bit remastering job.  I'll be happy to be impressed, and I'm sure
Laswell's mixes will bring out different things in the music (which is
cool), but it's not obvious that the originals needed to be "fixed".

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:45:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harras/Yankees/Lulu

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, allen huotari wrote:

> perhaps this is one simple way to examine how JZ's playing has become "more
> melodic, more boppish" ?

I think so, though of course the use of heads on _News for Lulu_ forces
Zorn to play more melodically there.  But I'd assume that Zorn's
experience playing head-based compositions in the late 80's with the Lulu
and Spy vs. Spy projects encouraged him to develop this direction more in
his own playing.

Chris Hamilton


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:23:27 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: chorus

I'm looking to find some 20th century vocal music. I have heard a few
pieces for chorus by Penderecki and really liked them.

Perhaps there is a CD out there by a chorus performing various works by
20th century composers?????? Thanks.

            -Tom Pratt

listening to: Klangbrucke Bern: Selected Soundscape No. 1

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:09:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: In defense of Gentle Giant

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> I think everyone who posted on the Gentle Giant thread was a little
> self righteous about their dreaded "progishness".

Hmmm.  Well, I think I was the worst about this (but Steve started
it!:^)), so allow me to backpedal.  When I called myself a "closet punk",
I meant to imply that my reaction to the Gentle Giant comparisons was a
bit kneejerk.  I just wanted to know if my knee would be likely to jerk in
reaction to Interzone's music as well.  I agree that a lot of healthy
babies get thrown out with the bathwater when people dismiss the genre as
a whole.  And I'll admit to little familiarity with Gentle Giant's work.
Sorry for giving offence.

> OF COURSE  some of it [GG] sounds somewhat dated now.
> [you don't think that ALL the stuff discussed here will sound dated in 20-25
> years? Hah! How old are you & how long have you been listening to music?]

What, are you kidding?  I think some of Naked City's work sounds dated
now!

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:20:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Bailey & d'n'b

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Yves Dewulf wrote:

> Also Bill Laswell has an very good album "oscillations" in which he
> alternates between various d'n'b-styles: sometimes quite ethnic (with lots of
> aboriginal-like samples), sometimes more jazzy. The funky-Laswell bass
> is more or less a constant on this record (a bit unusual for d'n'b records).
> Recently a remix-album of this album was released.
> (both on the belgian Sub Rosa label)

I'm no expert on drum'n'bass, but I like this record a lot.  What it has
over most other records I've heard in the genre is that it generally keeps
the radical rhythms that define the style at the center of the music.
Other drum'n'bass records I've heard mostly seem to smooth over the rough
rhythmic edges by piling on the samples, synths, etc.  (This is also the
reason I like Ninj's programming on the Bailey record more than many other
d'n'b records, although I agree it's repetitive as programming.)  Any
pointers to other records in this vein?

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:28:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Chris Barrett wrote:

> This strikes me as relveant to a recent thread that I believe surrounded
> the discussion of the Parachute box set.  Someone in that discussion had
> mentioned that Zorn was less interested in how the music sounded than he
> was in how it was created.  AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate
> others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the reason why.  If
> you bake a cake in a new and innovative way, does it matter if the cake
> tastes like a tire?

I agree with this to an extent, but it's important to keep in mind that
knowledge of music's context (also analysis which someone was dismissing
in another post) sometimes actually increases the visceral pleasure a
listener gets from music.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:59:11 -0500
From: "Chris Barrett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: expectations

>    Chris> someone else's argument for appreciating Zappa took too
>    Chris> much into account his influences, his ideals and
>    Chris> personality and his attempts at innovations and did not
>    Chris> take enough into account his music itself.  In other words,
>    Chris> they argued that the bottom line is the music itself
>    Chris> despite the pleas to emphasize everything else surrounding
>    Chris> it.
>
>To a point, I agree, but there are also the cases where a piece of
>music is interesting because we know the identity of the artist.  For
>example, would we all have the same reaction to, say, Redbird if it
>had been Zappa?  or Pierre Boulez?  Miles?  an unknown band from <fill
>in some obscure location> shipped on cassette with only a photocopied
>insert?  What if the piece of music in question was Leng T'che?

Ok, maybe I wasn't being real clear here.  You bring up some good points
that I agree with.  I was just setting up where I was going,  which
probably still isn't very clear.  I think I sent a rather rambling posting.
I was trying to show the two prevailing points of view I've notcied that
last week or two that seem to say either a.) the artist is
interesting/cool/relevant/appreciated/enjoyed more so because of his/her
context, method  and goals (i.e. game pieces discussion from a week or two
ago) vs. b.) its the music, the end result plain an simple.

(keep in mind, I do not own, nor have I listened to any of the cobra pieces
in their entirety, only snippets found here and ther on the web.  My
comments arrive entirely from what I have read of what people have to say
about them, so they are meant to be observations not criticisms of the
pieces. Hopefully that's how it came across).

> The disappointment of a lot of pop music is
>based on the fact that the music sounds exactly what I expect.

That is a good point.  But at the same time, something being exactly like
you expect isn't a bad thing.  (The Derek Bailey and the Ruins CD was
pretty much how I expected it to be, but not what I had hoped  for it to
be, which is why I am, overall disappointed with it.)  Almost everone seems
to have a bit of cheesy music they like that they are probably unwilling to
admit.  And that they are unwilling to admit it is probably partially
because it is cheesye pop music, sounds just like everyone expects it too.

There has been much speculation since it was revealed that those kf shows
of Masada were the last on what Zorn's next project would be.    Now while
it would be amazingly unlikely, what if it were some sort of pop structure?
What if songs began consistantly discernable parts, bridges, resolutions?
The weird stuff wouldn't neccessarily be completely gone, but it would be
much more "in" than even Masada was?  Zorn would definitely be fufilling
our expectations of giving us completely not what we expected.  But at the
same time I am sure that a large part of his major fan base would feel, no
matter how infact experimental or innovative it was, cheated.  They would
feel this way because it would not be what their expectations were, they
weren't expecting pop music.  In fact that is probably one of the main
reasons all of us are so into Zorn's music and the music of so many others
that Zorn has bridged us to.

>And Zorn is fulfilling another part of confounding expectations with
>his A&R work with Avant and Tzadik, where he presents artists with
>whom he doesn't actually play, artists which we probably would not
>have found or purchased if they hadn't had this association.  I
>recently acquired Fujeida's plant music album, even after the new age
>characterization that it got on this list.  Well, it's not your
>mother's new age music, for sure.  Everything on it is in just
>intonation or some even more bizarre tuning, and this is initially
>very unsettling.  It was not at all what I expected, but because I
>liked the first Fujeida and because he's on Tzadik (and because
>sometimes new age music isn't totally objectionable), I felt
>comfortable taking a chance with it.

That is one of the reasons I like Zorn so much, despite the fact that much
of his music I do find hit or miss, often on the same CD.  I love
discovering new things that I had no idea what they sound like (the Fujeida
sounds very intersting).

>    Chris> This strikes me as relevant to a recent thread that I
>    Chris> believe surrounded the discussion of the Parachute box set.
>    Chris> Someone in that discussion had mentioned that Zorn was less
>    Chris> interested in how the music sounded than he was in how it
>    Chris> was created.  AS much as I love much of Zorn's work, I hate
>    Chris> others, and it strikes me that this could be part of the
>    Chris> reason why.
>
>There's nothing wrong with having a story to go with the music.  This
>increases the enjoyment.  I love the story of how Cynical Hysterie
>Hour was finally released, and every time I listen to it, some part of
>me thinks antagonistic thoughts about large multi-national
>blood-sucking corporations.  The DMG catalog mentions that Joey Baron
>played bags of leaves on Absinthe -- makes me want to go listen to it
>again, because that album remains puzzling to me (and I love it for
>that).  Frederic Rzewski's masterpiece The People United has an
>improvised section, which is sometimes present on recordings,
>sometimes not.  If I know it's there, I recognize it as improvisation
>and listen to it one way, but if I don't know this, I listen to it
>differently, as if it is part of the composition.  Et cetera.

Please don't get me wrong.  I definitely appreciate stories that go along
with the music (the Joey Baron story alos made me go back to listen to
Absinthe again, after being completely puzzled at first by it -- it was the
second naked city cd I purchased after, of course, Naked City).

My point is that, as relevant as the stories may and/or should be
surrounding the music, the bottom line, for me anyway, should be the music
itself.  In a hundred years, or even thirty, there will be even less people
then ourselves who will know these stories behind the music (well, at least
past history has proved this.  The internet does make this more interesting
now....) , and for the most part it will be only the music to tell it's
story.  We have no way of knowing that Joey Baron played bags of leaves
without som article or story, and probably many listeners of that CD who
don't have access to a list like this, or know many people into the avant
garde (even though I live in Boston  with all its music schools and I see
that the CD's are selling like crazy from the stores, I personally know
very few people who are into Zorn or naked City or whomever, who wasn't
introduced to it all by me...and I am definitely not an authority on the
avant garde).

So after that long rant, I guess for me, a completely successful
experimental CD, maybe Zorn specifically, but really any of them, has to be
able to stand out independently of all other sources (i.e. stories
whatever) since the goal really is the *music* (or at least the *sounds*).

(I'll cut it out now....)

- -Chris


- -

------------------------------

End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #153
********************************************

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