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From:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest
Sent:     Thursday, November 06, 1997 7:51 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #151


John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 151



In this issue:

       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air)
       NO INFO - or: how to formulate the adequate subject
       NO INFO - or: how to formulate the adequate subject II
       question?
       New Music in the Old World
       In defense of Gentle Giant
       Re: question?
       Playing Games
       Re: Bailey + d'n'b
       Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
       Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)
       Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)
       Re: In defense of Gentle Giant
       Re: all talk, no info here
       Re: Bailey & d'n'b
       Re:Bailey & d'n'b

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:22:04 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air)

Regarding the quest of Zorn's over-exposure and the comparism to (other)
canonized masters, I think that time swallows the minor works of artists -
apart from obsessed fans and some scientists no one knows more than a
couple of works by great classical and jazz heroes, and they are only
measured and compared by their masterworks. So I don't think that Zorn's
doing wrong in publishing a lot. First, he increases his budget by giving
obsessed completists the possibility to transfer much more of their income
to him, and secondly he decreases the probability not to have recorded
something which sometimes turns out to be one of those few masterworks
which survive the decades and maybe centuries. For people like me this
raises only one difficulty: which record should I buy and which one I
should not?

Chris Hamilton said that there's a positive effect of Zorn's popularity for
other musicians too by booking him as attention-drawing guest star or
something like that. I really agree to this point; it cannot be
underestimated how important it is for a creative circle to have a "star"
among them. Without having calculated I'm pretty sure that it's a net
profit for other musicians.

Bye,
Fritz.


- -

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Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:22:13 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: NO INFO - or: how to formulate the adequate subject

While going over today's Zorn-List mails, I caught myself at particularly
looking for mails with subjects like "no info in here", "hot air",
"somewhat off subject". Why so? Because these mails are frequently
containing the real DISCUSSIONS as opposed to hard fact-infos about new
releases, concerts to come et c. And when I ask myself what lasts in my
mind, beeing located in the German cultural desert with no possibilities to
participate in KF things and the like (I'm exaggerating), it is those
meta-discussions.

Just a funny observation, nothing more. Continue! :-)

Fritz.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:39:29 +0100
From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: NO INFO - or: how to formulate the adequate subject II

Same thing with the extremely meaningful subject "Re: John Zorn List V2 #141"

an amused Fritz.


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:25:08 -0700
From: [e-mail] (mike ladd)
Subject: question?

Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules".  The piece Avez-vouz Travaille? appears
on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD vol. 3.
Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene Lussier with "no
overdubbing and minimal editing".

thanks for any info

*********************************************************
* Michael J. Ladd ([e-mail])                    *
* Sonic Mutaliation/Audio Abuse/Engineering/Composition *
*********************************************************



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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:15:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Music in the Old World

> My feeling? The amount of music put out in this genre is growing much
> faster than its audience. The audience was always limited; it is still.
> Hard to get people listening to non-mainstream music (and I am even
> questioning why we should even try to convince them to do so).
>
>     Patrice.

You are probably rigt, but hey, tonight in Gent - SOLD OUT (i.e. audience
of about 500): Bill Frisell and Joey Baron; same happened in Brussels
for the last Masada-show, for Bar Kokhba in Gent last year etc; about 300
hundred to see Steve Lacy and Derek Bailey in Antwerp last month...

I was amazed to see that only 40 people attended a Joe Lovano concert
at the KF last year in September; we have festivals here (including Tiny
Bell Trio etc) with more than 1.000 people. Don't get me wrong: jazz etc
is as marginal here as it is in the US. But still...

geert


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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:49:34 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: In defense of Gentle Giant

Hey!

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for a list that venerates
someone who has released CDs of himself & a friend making "music" that
vaguely sounds like little scratchy noises off of an old ethnic/Judaica 78,
mixed with other sounds [I refer, of course, to "Zohar" by the Mystic Fugu
Orch], I think everyone who posted on the Gentle Giant thread was a little
self righteous about their dreaded "progishness".

OF COURSE  some of it [GG] sounds somewhat dated now.
[you don't think that ALL the stuff discussed here will sound dated in 20-25
years? Hah! How old are you & how long have you been listening to music?]

BUT, if you can't appreciate the serious musicianship, hard work, skill, time
& craftsmanship that went into the better parts of Gentle Giant's work, then
you are simply not listening.

Not to mention that what is today dated & laughable can become tomorrow's
cool name-dropping shit [the most obvious example of which is Krautrock,
which I'm sure MANY of you like. As recently as 5 years ago, you couldn't
GIVE the shit away. Show it to a young hipster, & a sneer & the word
"hippies" would drip contemptuously off of their lips. Now however....]

And, as a fan of Gentle Giant, I must say that the Greg Bendian release, AS A
GG TRIBUTE is a miserable failure. It has NONE of the characteristics that
made GG's work special & unique, even in the *much distained* "progrock"
genre except for the tuned percussion.

I'm not looking to insult anyone or start flame wars. But I hope that this
might make some of you rethink knee-jerk reactions against music that was,
FOR IT'S TIME forward thinking.

[I'd be willing to bet that Zorn himself, a man of wide tastes, has at least
a soft spot for GG -althended the following:

Aquiring The Taste [the oldest here & the most dated, but, for the time, the
one where they obviously worked the hardest & pushed the envelope the most -
this is refered to in their liner notes]
Octopus
In A Glass House
Free Hand
Out Of The Woods [BBC recordings]

and to a lesser extent
Interview
Power & The Glory


[I'll get off of my soapbox now, & go back to my usual lurking position....]



Steve Feigenbaum

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:52:44 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: question?

>>>>> "mike" == mike ladd <[e-mail]> writes:

    mike> Anyone ever hear of "Les Granules".  The piece Avez-vouz
    mike> Travaille? appears on the sadly long gone Ear Magazine CD
    mike> vol. 3.  Impressive piece performed by Jean Derome and Rene
    mike> Lussier with "no overdubbing and minimal editing".

They have a number of albums on Ambiences Magnetiques, a
Montreal-based label which is available from Wayside and other
sources.  Lussier has also been on a number of other guitar based
albums (isn't he part of Frith's guitar quartet? and Cutler's Four
Guitarists of the Apocalypse Bar?).  Their earliest work currently
available is the group Conventum, which was almost folk-based.

Some of their work is avant rock, but most of their words are in
French, and they appear to be interested in the French language debate
currently raging in Quebec.  They also have quite a sense of humor --
I have one live album with an interesting guitar duet between Lussier
and Frith, and the audience is going wild during silences in the
music.  Derome is the horn/wind player, and his work is a bit more
serious, but not when he's part of Les Granules.

Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]
Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:56:28 EST
From: "MBS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Playing Games

a few Questions this time.
some old, some new.

Again, I am asking for Anyone who knows Anything about John Oswald
and or Mystery Lab to get in touch with me...

More on point, does anyone know the 'rules' of any of the game
pieces? what is included in the text with the parachute box?
are these pieces better live than on record?

And for those who did not know (was it mentioned?) this month's Wire
has a few Zorn reviews.
Some other mag said Anthony Coleman's Sanctuary is one of the finest
works ever from the downtown NY scene...
BTW what did/does Jeff Buckley do on the Live at KF Cobra disc?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:51:29 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Bailey + d'n'b

[e-mail] (Caleb Deupree) wrote:

>Downtown Music Gallery ([e-mail]) has it listed for $20 US if
>that's any cheaper.

I thought this was one of the Avant (along with some DIW)
titles that they've recently been selling for $16 ... Ooops,
I just looked ... they've got Arcana - "The Last Wave", "Harras",
and "The Joy Of Disease" (among others) for this price, but not
the Bailey/Ninj.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:24:34 -0700
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Message-Id: <[e-mail]>

>RE: Avant.....any comments on the "Harras" disk ? Also, It's hit and miss
>with this catalogue far as price goes. I walk into Tower and see some
>Avant disk's selling for normal prices while others are $20 and above..


> - HARRAS: D. Bailey, J. Zorn, W. Parker (1995 - Avant, Avan 056 (CD))

I almost hate to say anything here, after the whole Zappa thing (that really
stirred up a lot of comments. . . almost approaching excitement), but. . . I
may be the only person on this list who hasn't (yet) gotten the whole Derek
Bailey thing. He just plain doesn't do it for me. And whatever Zorn does on
that disk seems appropriate for the setting, but also just bores me. So in
answer to your question I suppose it depends on what you think of Bailey,
who IMO seems to be the guy in charge of that set.

Also, what's up with the digest? 10 digests in one day? Doesn't that seem a
bit excessive?

Ok well I'm at it, let me comment and ask a question to all you musician
types on this list, regarding the Parachute Years. Prior to the CD release,
all that I owned was the double Pool vinyl album, which I thought was ok but
not super. When listening to the new set, I found that I really liked the
Archery discs. Hearing more Pool and Hockey helped my appreciation of those
somewhat. And I still haven't formed an opinion on Lacrosse. I'm not a
musician in any sense (and in fact as a visual artist, I think that I listen
to music differently than most), so I have no real clue why I like Archery
so much compared to the others. When I try to think about it, they all
"seem" the same, but obviously they're not. Can someone help me articulate
what is going on here?

thanx.

yours in zornocity (or should I say zornoclism) --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:21:23 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)

>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]> writes:

    Jeff> Well since I am here, I thought I might mention, in my
    Jeff> "shill" persona, that the second Arcana disk is out on
    Jeff> Axiom.  This doesn't have Bailey, but it does have Laswell
    Jeff> and Williams along with a host of other people including
    Jeff> Pharoah Sanders, Byard Lancaster, Graham Haynes, Buckethead
    Jeff> (who does a surprisingly good job in this company), and
    Jeff> Nicky Skopelitis.  Unfortunately, Tony Williams died before
    Jeff> it was finished and a session with Ornette never was
    Jeff> recorded.  Any way, readers of this list might like it.
    Jeff> Some more information is at the Axiom Web Site (URL below.)

Second the opinion that this is great.  Only Laswell and Williams are
on every cut, and the others have assorted changes in personnel.  The
Buckethead cuts are obviously Buckethead, and while on first listening
I thought they were very out of place, I've grown used to them after
repeated listenings.  The other cuts sound a lot like electric Miles,
with Skopelitis providing the harmonic wash that the keyboardists did
in the earlier band.

It makes me wonder why this is an Arcana album, because it sounds very
different from the first one.  But somewhere there has been a recent
discussion of the casualness with which Laswell names his projects, so
go figure.


Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]
Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:28:36 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)

> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:19 -0800
> From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
>
> At 3:26 PM 11/5/97, Jeff Spirer wrote:
> >At 07:17 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Scott Russell wrote:
> >
> >>This album is pretty amazing from whichever way you look at it. It's
> >>very much in the same area as his other recent disc Saisoro (with Ruins)
> >>and Arcana (with Laswell and Williams), ie unusual collaborations.

> And, I might add, this is one f*cking excellent record. It made me mourn
> William's death all the more, his playing here is his best in several
> decades.

Tony is INCREDIBLE there.  Worth the price of admission alone.  I agree
too that it makes his death all the more painful.

Additionally, Steve Smith sez:

>New Yorkers are blessed with so much to possibly do almost
>every night of the year that many tend to take it all for granted and
>will frequently see nothing instead.

Very true.  Oct 30th saw shows by Yo La Tengo, Lee 'Scrath' Perry, Mike
Watt, Patti Smith and Jane's Addiction (and lots more that I can't
remember).  If something great is going on, I do like to make it out to
see it but it does get weary trying to see EVERYTHING that looks
interesting.  Any major city where tours are going to stop at probably
have the same problem.  So much good stuff to see, you probably can't
see ALL of it so what do you do?

Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
Warped perspectives on all types of music
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:58:45 -0600
From: "Glenn Astarita" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: In defense of Gentle Giant

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
>
> Subject: In defense of Gentle Giant
> Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 7:49 AM
>
> Hey!
>
>
>
> OF COURSE  some of it [GG] sounds somewhat dated now.
> [you don't think that ALL the stuff discussed here will sound dated in
20-25
> years? Hah! How old are you & how long have you been listening to music?]
>
> BUT, if you can't appreciate the serious musicianship, hard work, skill,
time
> & craftsmanship that went into the better parts of Gentle Giant's work,
then
> you are simply not listening.
>
> snip....


Have to agree with Steve here....i missed most of this thread but GG were a
cutting edge band to say the least.  Their complex arrangements, unique
approach and craftsmanship was simply awe inspiring.  Again, certain
parallels could be drwan to the likes of JZ etc... The music has withstood
the sands of time.  GG also had a knack for combining the elements of
different genres into melodic and "very listenable" music.  In those days
and even today there are many bands who concentrate more on impossible time
changes and lose focus of the music at hand.  Compositional content suffers
due to more emphasis on individual technique and prowess.  GG, as a unit
were blessed with both attributes and then some.  .............my 2 cents..

glenn

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:49:51 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: all talk, no info here

SS related:

>During my entire period as publicist at the Knit I'd notice that no
>matter how much exposure I could drum up for a show, no matter how
>laudatory the praise in the press, no matter how much advance time we
>had to "work" it, it was still largely a crap shoot as to whether we'd
>get any audience.

sZ responded:

Well, I am venturing into promoting this genre here in rural Ventura. Our
first show is a double-quartet featuring Vinny Golia at City Hall on Nov.
22. I'll let you know how it goes.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:11:15 -0500
From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey & d'n'b

ok, so everybody has said that the drums'n'bass part of this disc is
kind of weak.

anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:47:45 +0100
From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Bailey & d'n'b

>anybody have any recommendations of good drums'n'bass recordings?

Here comes a long list of d'n'b albums that can interest some of you:

There are some very freaked out d'n'b -records by squarepusher:
very hectic rhythms (some call it drill & bass)
with sometimes strange synth-sounds , sometimes 70's-like fusion.

Also the Aphex-twin has made some weird d'n'b tracks on
his "Richard.P.James"-album:lots of orchestral samples,
Kraftwerk-like synth sounds and very irregular rhythms (Warp -label).


Amon Tobin samples from old jazz-records and samba-records (he's partly
brazilian), I think this is one of the best mixtures of funk,jazz
and batuccada-music up to now, hard to remain seated.
(on the Ninja-tune label: "Bricolage"-CD, "Piranha Break" -EP)

Also Bill Laswell has an very good album "oscillations" in which he
alternates between various d'n'b-styles: sometimes quite ethnic (with lots of
aboriginal-like samples), sometimes more jazzy. The funky-Laswell bass
is more or less a constant on this record (a bit unusual for d'n'b records).
Recently a remix-album of this album was released.
(both on the belgian Sub Rosa label)

You can find also some d'n'b-like tracks on other Laswell-records:
Tetragramatron,sacred system (I & II), Axiom Dub, one of the Divinations,...

David Shea has some d'n'b-tracks on his more recent albums (mostly a
collage of d'n'b rhythms, samples of ethnic percussion, and both symphonic
and ethnic samples.) d'n'b goes classic, but don't expect sweet string
arrangments, rather the Stockhausen kind of thing:
    -Satyricon (on Sub Rosa)
    -the collaboration with DJ Grazhoppa on Lowlands
      (I don't remember the correct title)
   - a track on the Great Jewish Music:Serge Gainsbourg -CD

Very Dark d'n'b can be found on "Overload Lady" by Mick Harris & Erraldo
Bernocchi (on Sub Rosa: very scorn-like, dark soundscapes with very deep beats,
more regular and techno-like than the other records mentionned here) and
on recordings from the illbient-people (DJ-Spooky, DJ Soulslinger, We,...)

In London the Indian Underground-Scene releases lots of records with a
mixture of traditional indian-music, d'n'b and political raps:
Vedic, Talvin Singh, Asian Dub foundation,...

More mainstream-jungle and d'n'b and still quite good:
  Roni Size and Reprazent (jazzy + raps)
  Endemic Void (Very Jazzy)
  Photek (sometimes quite dark)
  LTJ Bukem (very jazzy, and sometimes a bit to sweet and easy for me)

(with jazzy I mean: tons of fender-rhodes electric pianos , obvious samples
of Miles Davis trumpet-licks, flutes, string-arrangments )
..

Most of these are really worth checking out and are more diverse than
most of the d'n'b -stuff played in clubs (so you can also listen to them
at home without being bored after two tracks).


Yves



- -

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End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #151
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