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From:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest
Sent:     Thursday, November 06, 1997 1:03 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #150


John Zorn Mailing List Digest Thursday, November 6 1997 Volume 02 : Number 150



In this issue:

       Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)
       Re: Zappa, and mediocre
       Re: John Zorn List V2 #148
       Harras/Yankees/Lulu
       Re: John Zorn List V2 #148
       Re: all talk, no info here
       Re: Zappa
       Re: Glenn Branca
       Re: Gustav Mahler / Uri Caine
       Re: Zappa, and mediocre
       Re: Glenn Branca
       Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (more hot air)
       Re: John Zorn List V2 #141
       Zappa redux

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:58:19 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Arcana (was Re: Bailey + d'n'b)

At 3:26 PM 11/5/97, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>At 07:17 PM 11/5/97 +0000, Scott Russell wrote:
>
>>This album is pretty amazing from whichever way you look at it. It's
>>very much in the same area as his other recent disc Saisoro (with Ruins)
>>and Arcana (with Laswell and Williams), ie unusual collaborations.
>
>Well since I am here, I thought I might mention, in my "shill" persona,
>that the second Arcana disk is out on Axiom.  This doesn't have Bailey, but
>it does have Laswell and Williams along with a host of other people
>including Pharoah Sanders, Byard Lancaster, Graham Haynes, Buckethead (who
>does a surprisingly good job in this company), and Nicky Skopelitis.
>Unfortunately, Tony Williams died before it was finished and a session with
>Ornette never was recorded.  Any way, readers of this list might like it.
>Some more information is at the Axiom Web Site (URL below.)
>
>End of "shill" mode, back to making erroneous statements.
>
And, I might add, this is one f*cking excellent record. It made me mourn
William's death all the more, his playing here is his best in several
decades.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:47:20 -0800
From: Jason Edward Kocol <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa, and mediocre

> I don't think Zappa is mediocre, but this is hardly exceptional among
> musicians discussed on a list devoted to improvised music, eh?  And I
> do think there are mediocre free players.
>
> Chris Hamilton

     Forgive me, but I wasn't trying to point out that he was any more
exceptional than the primary musicians discussed here, just that more
credit should have been given to him based on his musical philoshophies
and social commentaries.  He just had so much personality, he worked
exceptionally hard, and even though I don't own nearly enough of his
records, I can see that it came through in the music, and I find that
very important.
     About "mediocre free players", this almost hints at the beauty
thread a few months back, where it's so hard to say what can be
considered beautiful music, or ugly music, or even good or bad improv.
It's a tough thing to rate based on the nature of what it actually is.
I also remember the post awhile back about the fellow who was
questioning the credibility and validity of the improv music he had
played, and even though I love improvising freely and listening to
someone improvising, I feel the true appreciation of it lies within that
particular performer first and foremost.  So for this I would find it
difficult to rate any free imrov as mediocre; there are some players who
I feel may be more acute, but none really "better" than others.
"Better" is such a weird word anyway.

- -Jason
http://suburban3.home.ml.org
http://members.tripod.com/~misterlazy

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:17:30 -1000
From: Dan Kuehn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #148

one more vote for weasels ripped, but the best has gotta be the last released
before his death: civilization phase 3.  all you guys who stopped listening
long ago ...well, give it a try - he'd put down the guitar a while before and
was writing mostly on synclavier, i think, and pieces for the Ensemble Moderne.

it's achingly beautiful, an incredible statement, and of course hillarious.

but wait - have you heard "euclid's nightmare" by  previte/zorn on bobby's new
depth of field label...  it's NOT achingly beautiful, these guys are having
too much fun!
- --
Dan Kuehn
resident manager
Kailua Maui Gardens

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 22:25:20 UT
From: "allen huotari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Harras/Yankees/Lulu

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote: (re: "Harras")


>>>It's three topnotch improvisors playing very well together.  It's not a
>>>lifechanging record, but it's very, very good.  _Yankees_ is a useful
>>>point of reference as it's also a trio featuring Bailey and Zorn.

>>>The most obvious difference over the intervening 15 years is Zorn's sax
>>>playing, which has become more melodic, more boppish, more
>>>Ornette-influenced.  His voice now is less obviously original, but I think
>>>he brings something unusual to this kind of improv in his willingness to
>>>draw on the jazz tradition.


an interesting aural follow up to CH's comments is to listen to "Yankees"
followed by "News For Lulu" (or vice versa)

although musically dissimilar, both recordings are guitar/sax/trombone trios
and both feature Zorn on sax and George Lewis on trombone (Bill Frisell
appears on guitar for "Lulu"...and for complete accuracy Zorn also plays
clarinet and game calls on "Yankees" but it's the lineup that truly matters)

perhaps this is one simple way to examine how JZ's playing has become "more
melodic, more boppish" ?

ajh







- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:02:31 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #148

>one more vote for weasels ripped, but the best has gotta be the last
released
>before his death: civilization phase 3.  all you guys who stopped listening
>long ago ...well, give it a try -

I never quit listening, just quit enjoying. The only way I could stand CP3
was to program out the ridiculous verbage. What remained was okay, but I'll
take Xenakis or Stockhausen when I want electronic music.

sZ


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:17:41 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: all talk, no info here

Patrice L. Roussel wrote many very wise and insightful things, among
which was:

> I remember going to the KF (many years ago) to see Tim Berne and
> arriving
> one hour before the show because I was affraid it would be sold out...
> And
> we ended up to be just 30 in the audience. More recently, I
> experienced the
> same with other downtowners (10-15 persons at the AlterKnit). Even the
> KF
> seems to have a hard time to fill the place with the less known
> downtowners...
> You imagine with more clubs promoting this music?

Christ, you're singing my blues.  The first time I came to New York and
saw that I could catch Tim I did the same thing you did, only it was the
debut gig of Loose Cannon (with Formanek and Hirshfield) at the Cornelia
Street Cafe, a restaurant that sometimes features music, not a full-time
club.  I got there really early, to the bemusement of the
restauranteurs, and by show time there were probably only 20 people in
the space.  Joey Baron warmed up the crowd by telling jokes and
threatening to do a magic trick.  Today I live next door to that
restaurant - strange karma indeed.

During my entire period as publicist at the Knit I'd notice that no
matter how much exposure I could drum up for a show, no matter how
laudatory the praise in the press, no matter how much advance time we
had to "work" it, it was still largely a crap shoot as to whether we'd
get any audience.  And it's still going on... two weeks ago I went to
hear Joe Morris, after seeing so much over-the-top adoration in print
that I felt I ought to be there on opening night.  This was in the
Alterknit (capacity for a seated show - 75 or so) and there were no more
than 30 folks there.  And of those 30, I'd say at least 10 left not long
into the set; I assumed these to be the ones who actually didn't know
anything about Morris but were led down by the press adulation only to
discover that it wasn't to their liking, and thus unlikely to take a
chance on the Knit or new music again.  (Subject of essay question:  Can
good press be a bad thing on occasion, and if so, why?)

Additionally New Yorkers are blessed with so much to possibly do almost
every night of the year that many tend to take it all for granted and
will frequently see nothing instead.  I know what it's like from both
sides now... in Houston I would have wept and salivated over the notion
of seeing a staging of an Anthony Braxton opera, as happened here in NY
last year.  But living in Queens, only about 45 minutes of travel away
from the venue, I still managed to convince myself that I was too tired
from work, it would be really late when I got home, and anyway I don't
have the stamina for a weird four hour opera right now.  So I didn't go,
and now how stupid do you think I feel?  This just to show that there
really IS a kind of stupor that sets in when you have too many options
on a regular basis.  Of course, as a former *Houstonian*, I most
assuredly prefer this situation to the other... ;-)

> My feeling? The amount of music put out in this genre is growing much
> faster than its audience. The audience was always limited; it is
> still.
> Hard to get people listening to non-mainstream music (and I am even
> questioning why we should even try to convince them to do so).

I don't necessarily agree.  It's just that New Yorkers often take such
things for granted.  If the Berne show you mentioned had taken place in
Chicago (anywhere but the Elbo Room ;-)  ), the Bay Area or Minneapolis,
it might well have sold out.  That's why so many NY musicians have
basically paid their bills by working in Europe and are now searching
for grassroots routes to tour the rest of the US.  And I think there IS
a real hunger among younger folks across the country for non-mainstream
music, and especially music that isn't the kind of alternative spoon-fed
to them by Spin and MTV.  College radio, when it's not some stupid minor
league farm team for commercial radio thanks to major label swag and
co-opting, is frequently the only place these artists get any airplay,
and that's true everywhere from Storrs, CT, to Missoula, MT.  So I think
the overall audience for this music is actually underestimated and that
New York is a particularly bad microcosm by which to make your
judgement.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]





>
>
>         Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:30:47 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:21:18 -0500 (EST)  Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Schwitterz wrote:
>
> > Discomfort from scatological lyrics and discomfort in music are two
> > different things.
>
> Sometimes.  But I don't think I'd be discomforted if the scatological
> lyrics weren't contextualized by some musical substance.  I'm merely
> annoyed when people just say scatological things to me.  One last point in
> Zappa's defense (wait, I haven't been defending him, have I?), and then
> I'm outta this thread:  He was capable of writing some drop dead
> gorgeous melodies.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Chris, you admit that you worry about that? Your case is desperate... and
so is mine :-).

    Patrice.

PS: have you tried the first two Divine Comedy (talking about gorgeous
melodies)?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:02:27 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Glenn Branca

> I just bought my first Glenn Branca CD. It's 'Symphony No. 2 (Peak of
> the Sacred' on Atavistic. It's played by 2 or three percussionists, a
> bassist and 7 or 8 mallet guitarists (one being Thruston Moore!). There
> are five movements. I LOVE it! It reminds me of glaciers. Incredibly
> powerful and slow moving. Can't wait to pick up some more Branca.

are you sure the 2 or 3 persuccionists weren't actually all just Z'ev?
he's pretty cunning....

- -jascha


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:07:05 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gustav Mahler / Uri Caine

> Some days ago I bought this CD with Caine, Joey Baron, Dave Douglas, Don
> Byron, with almost everybody on it and found it thrilling in a way I didn't
> find a record since I first heard "Naked City", which was SOME years ago.
> It's the first record of the new Winter and Winter label (I think Stefan
> Winter is the one who had ENJA before), and it is in a beautiful cardboard
> cover. The music is completely Gustav Mahler-material, mainly from his
> symphonies and the "Kindertotenliedern", arranged by Uri Caine and played
> by this allstar band, with a lot of improvisation. Any Comments?


...cool....

- -jascha


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:14:11 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zappa, and mediocre

On Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:47:20 -0800  Jason Edward Kocol wrote:
>
> > I don't think Zappa is mediocre, but this is hardly exceptional among
> > musicians discussed on a list devoted to improvised music, eh?  And I
> > do think there are mediocre free players.
> >
> > Chris Hamilton
>
>      Forgive me, but I wasn't trying to point out that he was any more
> exceptional than the primary musicians discussed here, just that more
> credit should have been given to him based on his musical philoshophies
> and social commentaries.  He just had so much personality, he worked
> exceptionally hard, and even though I don't own nearly enough of his
> records, I can see that it came through in the music, and I find that
> very important.
>      About "mediocre free players", this almost hints at the beauty
> thread a few months back, where it's so hard to say what can be
> considered beautiful music, or ugly music, or even good or bad improv.
> It's a tough thing to rate based on the nature of what it actually is.
> I also remember the post awhile back about the fellow who was
> questioning the credibility and validity of the improv music he had
> played, and even though I love improvising freely and listening to
> someone improvising, I feel the true appreciation of it lies within that
> particular performer first and foremost.  So for this I would find it
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's a really strange statement. Do you mean that if I sing in my
bathroom and think that I am as good as Scott Walker, then my opinion
has more value than the one of an audience?

Can you reduce the value of any art to what his/her creator think about
it? Hum... If the creator is Picasso, Stockhausen, Cage, etc, maybe, because
these people fly well above any of our heads, and the chance that we
might have the slightest clue about their creative processes is close to
zero. Now would I put everybody with the word artist on their business
card in the same bucket that these ones? I doubt, and I am ready to take
the risk of having strong opinions when somebody is trying to sell me
something as being original and I immediately recognize the same old bag
of hackneyed tricks. And I am willing to take the risk of being wrong in
my judgement.

Your sentence above kind of implicitely deny the value of performance,
where an audience has the right to dismiss what you try to make it
absorb. You would have to be a great genius to succeed at that (or a
great manipulator, or even a very confused audience :-).

> difficult to rate any free imrov as mediocre; there are some players who
> I feel may be more acute, but none really "better" than others.
> "Better" is such a weird word anyway.

I am completely bewildered by the above statement... That an improv
situation can create a lot of confusion among the audience, I am well
aware of that :-). But does it imply that we should turn off our BS
detector? I doubt that an audience that gobbles everything would be
good for any performing art. The lack of feedback (positive or
negative) appears scary to me. But maybe you believe in the DIY
philosophy. I don't. I am asking more to an artist that its willingness
to be original. I expect also a little bit of talent.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 00:24:11 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Glenn Branca

On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:02:27 -0500 (EST)  ia zha nah er vesen wrote:
>
> > I just bought my first Glenn Branca CD. It's 'Symphony No. 2 (Peak of
> > the Sacred' on Atavistic. It's played by 2 or three percussionists, a
> > bassist and 7 or 8 mallet guitarists (one being Thruston Moore!). There
> > are five movements. I LOVE it! It reminds me of glaciers. Incredibly
> > powerful and slow moving. Can't wait to pick up some more Branca.
>
> are you sure the 2 or 3 persuccionists weren't actually all just Z'ev?
> he's pretty cunning....

Stephan Wischerth and David Linton are the other two.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:26:43 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (more hot air)

> Of course, it is always the "yet-to-come" stuff that is the best :-).
> What makes you think that this stuff would be better that what Zorn has
> been working on recently (besides the fact that it is not on record)?
>
>     Patrice.

which reminds me: what has Zorn been up to lately?  I've been curious to
see what's going to follow Masada as his main focus.

- -j


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:34:18 -0500 (EST)
From: ia zha nah er vesen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141

> I guess the problem with avant-garde music is the pressure to like it
> because if you don't someone will say "oh ... you just don't *understand*
> it". And for every piece of challenging music that you don't like there
> will be someone willing to defend it using this line.

Ah yes, the 'i don't want to bother talking about music with you so i'm
just going to raise myself above you' line.  We all know it well, i'm
sure.  Gr.  Sometimes people don't feel comfortable simply liking
something...

FOr that matter, what does it mean to 'understans' a piece of music?
Aside from liking it alot, and maybe even following the structure of the
piece, is there more to this claim of understanding music that i'm not
catching?  I've ceased to equate analysis with comprehension, in music and
other spheres of activity...which leaves me...i don't quite know where...

 -jascha



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:56:04 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zappa redux

On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Schwitterz wrote:

> was to program out the ridiculous verbage. What remained was okay, but I'll
> take Xenakis or Stockhausen when I want electronic music.

speaking of Zappa, whatever became
of that Varese disc he was
planning/finishing before his death?

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

End of John Zorn Mailing List Digest V2 #150
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