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V02n148.txt
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1998-03-08
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From: John Zorn List
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 8:02 PM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: John Zorn List V2 #148
John Zorn List Wednesday, November 5 1997 Volume 02 : Number 148
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:06:30 -0500 (EST)
From: DMB5561719@aol.com
Subject: Jazz From Hell (was Re: John Zorn List V2 #141)
In a message dated 97-11-05 13:40:27 EST,
jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson) writes:
> You know I do have a lot of respect for Frank Zappa, but I tend to agree
> with Mister Knox. It's not like I've never listened to a Zorn album
> (Nani Nani, anyone?) and said "he's just some dude making noise!" I
> mean, "Jazz from hell" was a mistake, admit it.
I don't think so. In fact, it's one of my favorite Zappa albums
if not the THE favorite. A fine fusion of Zappa, Varese and the
late Conlon Nancarrow that results in a high point of Frank
Zappa's late years. Maybe even his best, I think.
It always shows up at the bottom of those favorite polls because
most of his fan base seems to be made up of the:
>stereotypical rabid-Zappa-fan who laughs
>incessantly at "joke" songs like "Why does it hurt when I pee"
and Joe's Garage fans who don't like that funny squiggly music
that sounds strange. God forbid that Zappa fans like anything that
doesn't sound like rock 'n' roll or fusion. I seem to remember that
Frank wanted to be remembered for his post-classical music
like Jazz From Hell, LSO, Yellow Shark (all incredible!!!) and other
acoustic late period stuff.
"Duh, it sounds funny!" followed by a Beavis or Buthead laugh.....
looking forward to Graham Haynes @ the Kit on Thursday.
np: Live in Japan - John Coltrane (Impulse!)
* . * . . D a v i d B e a r d s l e y .. dmb5561719@aol.com *
* . *
* I M M P & B i i n k! m u s i c . . * *
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n Ezine . *
* M E L A v i r t u a l dream house monitor * *
* *
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm * . . *
* .. .*.. * . . . .* ..*. . .. . *
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:11:02 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Zorn List V2 #141
Hold on there feller,
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Nuno BARREIRO wrote:
>
> - Zappa is the most outstanding exemple of heteroclism in conteporary music.
Gimme a break. For a start, I'm entitled to a personal opinion (pretty
sure I qualified it as such). Secondly; this claim that Zappa is at the
pinnacle of heteroclism in contemporary music - well, its just not true.
I'm not trying to discount your own liking for his music, but it just
sounds like (err, maybe I won't tell you what I think it sounds like)
> It is incredible how the recordings from the sixties are avant-garde, even
> now. Saying that it's a "mediocre white guy playing tricked-up r'n'r" is
Avant-garde? Compared to what, exactly?
> just plain bullshit, in the sense that it doens't mean anything and that
Sure it does; it means what it says - country simple!
But I'm not rying to stop anyone listening to Zappa - I've just never
found the least appeal in his music (sorry).
cheers,
Jim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:27:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Seth Mulliken <sethm@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Zappa...
Being a Zappa fan myself, I find it obligatory to put in my two cents.
I contend that the best way to look at Zappa's music is with an open
mind; most of his work is obviously and purposely contradictory. He
bridges a gap between the idea of "high art" and "low art", as
represented by "classical influences" and "pop charts" Though it is true
that his work does not form a coherent whole, as even he himself
indicates it will, that is the whole point: taking what He Thinks our
subconcious desires are, and turning them back upon us at the moment they
are to be fulfilled. Because he worked in rock music, in pop music, Zappa
can never be truly considered radical or avant-garde, but this is also
intentional: bringing a certain amount of transgressive work to the
masses. There is a great book out there called "The Negative Dialectics
of Poodle Play" that takes up the task of critiquing Zappa's entire
catalog. Whatever you may think about the man's music, it is still a
strange book dealing with many aspects of creating art in America.
the rainDawg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:28:37 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <jknox@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Going thru the motions, or invention? (some more hot air)
(This is somewhere closer to where the whole thing started)
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 y9d62@ttacs1.ttu.edu wrote:
> For the record, and my humble opinion, I think Zorn's legacy is going to
> be connected with the legacy of 20th century classical music, especially
> regarding concepts such as assimiliation of broad musical styles, and
> group interaction. Not to mention 'extremes' in the tradition of
> Stravinsky, Debussy, and John Coltrane.
Yeah; I concur completely. If one of Zorn's legacies will be to
have championed some of the most creative musicians of his, and other,
generations, then he's also traced a loose native-US historical tradition
in parallel to the accepted classical canon. I mean; the auto-didactic
*heteroclist* American composers like Ives, Partch, Cage, Braxton, Coleman
(add your personal others according to taste). Plus, he's teased out
connections between a job-lot of marginal creative -types; Jack and Harry
Smith, Goddard, Duras, Benjamin, Genet, Hammer - and a whole
heap more. To say nothing of Jewish cultural identity.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:48:39 GMT
From: "Ockham's stubble" <boshuck@triples.math.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Jazz From Hell (was Re: John Zorn List V2 #141)
and Joe's Garage fans who don't like that funny squiggly music
that sounds strange.
propadeutic to squiggly stuff's pure picasso behind bruce bickford's
cataclysmic claymation on babysnakes.
- -b
ps: heteroclite is a fine adjective, tho' -clism might've been
sequestered to suggest a deluge (flood really, or is it wash? any
greek scholar's lurking?)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:57:29 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Heteroclismic Z's
>I suggest people who want to know where Zappa came from read his
>autobiography, "The Real Frank Zappa Book." It gives lots and lots of
>insight as to where his influences came from and what made him be so
>heteroclismic in the first place (though the proper form of adjective might
>be 'heteroclitic'). Its often these details that make you understand and
>appreciate the artist more than if you just spout off that he writes too
>much music that sounds the same.
>
>m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s>
I was a Zappa fanatic for many years. He brought much pleasure through
recordings and live performances. I have read about him ad nauseum. I think
most of what he recorded after about 1975 was uninnovative. And, when
compared with composers like Xenakis or Boulez or Messiaen or Cage or Ives
or Varese or many other 20th Century composers, he pales in comparison. But
who cares. If you like him none of this matters. I just lost interest in him
when I discovered his influences. I stuck with them instead.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:00:40 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Zappa
> I am keeping in mind that everyone is entitled to their own
>opinion, yet I find nothing mediocre about someone whose intention
>everytime he picked up the guitar was to play something he had never
>played before; to actually improvise and not just string together in
>random order a bunch of "prepared licks" that most rock (using "rock"
>loosely in Zappa's case) guitar players are guilty of, barring the
>accusations that he was a "sloppy player
>-Jason
But, as accomplished as he was, I have never been able to listen to any of
his guitar solo compilations. They bore me after about the third one. Derek
Bailey on the other hand delights me almost every time I hear him.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:05:13 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: John Zorn List V2 #141
>In reason years, I've come to think that the scatological lyrics are
>actually the most "avant-garde" part of Zappa's post-60's work. They make
>me really uncomfortable, and there's very little in music that can do
>that. The closest analogue I can think of in the arts is some of Robert
>Crumb's comix work.
>
>Chris Hamilton
Discomfort from scatological lyrics and discomfort in music are two
different things. Smutty lyrics is an easy way to evoke discomfort.
Innovative composition is another matter entirely.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:59:06 -0700
From: Frank D Malczewski <malczews@pogo.ast.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: zorn vs zappa
The first few Zorn titles I listened to reminded me a lot of
the earlier Zappa years (I also became disinterested in Zappa
about the time I bought 200 Motels (which was pretty poor
IMO)). But early Zappa is excellent, aged or not. Zorn
just keeps on going, kinda like the eveready bunny. Still
feel Weasels Ripped My Flesh is one of Frank's best, and
indeed what caused the association with Zorn for me.
- -
------------------------------
End of John Zorn List V2 #148
*****************************