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utah-firearms-digest    Thursday, February 11 1999    Volume 02 : Number 125




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 03:42:53 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Salt Lake Tribune -- Rifle Lobby Decries Plan For `Gun-Free' Olympics

http://www.sltrib.com/02071999/utah/81098.htm


Sunday, February 7, 1999
>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------
>
>  Rifle Lobby Decries Plan For `Gun-Free' Olympics
>  Utah firearms lobby is seeking a quid pro quo
>
>         BY PAUL FOY
[imageField]
>         THE ASSOCIATED
>         PRESS
>
>             The Utah gun lobby isn't rolling over nicely for a
>         "gun-free" 2002 Winter Olympics.
>             In most states that would bring a big "so what?"
>             But in Utah, where anyone with a clean record can
>         get a permit to carry a concealed weapon just about
>         anywhere -- even to church or public school -- it will
>         take a special law to ban pistol-packing spectators from
>         the games.
>             "The world will expect us, given the nature and
>         history of the Olympic Games, to provide a high level of
>         security," says Gov. Mike Leavitt, who is pushing for a
>         weapon-free Winter Games.
>             Legislation already out of the starting gate at the
>         Utah Capitol would make it a felony to bring a firearm
>         or bomb to the Olympics.
>             But what will it take to get the gun lobby's
>         support? Compensation for any harm done to gun owners
>         who were left unable to defend themselves at an Olympic
>         venue.
>             "People carry concealed weapons for their own
>         safety," says Rob Bishop, a gun lobbyist and chairman of
>         Utah's Republican Party. "If you take away a right,
>         there has to be some responsibility for protecting that
>         individual."
>             The demand was rejected out of hand by Olympics
>         officials.
>             But hold on: Bishop and his client, the Utah Sports
>         Shooting Council, wield considerable clout in the
>         Republican-controlled Legislature, where they could
>         block the gun-free bill during the current session.
>             Utah is unlike Nagano in 1998, where Japan's strict
>         gun laws cramped the training regime of rifle-toting
>         Olympic biathletes. Owning a gun here is as much a right
>         as that of worship. Handgun permits? Who needs them?
>             In Utah, where an estimated 68 percent of adults own
>         firearms, concealed-weapons permits are issued "without
>         restriction." And that Wild West image is as much a
>         concern for some politicians as the safety of the
>         Olympics.
>             "The whole world's watching," House Majority Leader
>         Kevin Garn said. "It's important that we have real tight
>         security, based on what's happened at past Olympics.
>             "We have to make sure those venues are high-security
>         areas," Garn said. "It just doesn't make sense to have
>         weapons inside of them."
>             State Public Safety Commissioner Craig Dearden will
>         oversee the Games' security. Metal detectors will be
>         posted at every fenced Olympic venue. Tickets will be
>         printed with a long list of prohibited items from guns
>         to knives to bottles.
>             "We understood the Sports Shooting Council and NRA
>         had signed off on this," said Shelley Thomas, a vice
>         president for the Salt Lake Organizing Committee.
>             Last summer, the traditionally rigid Utah gun lobby
>         did make the first overture toward surrendering weapons
>         for the 17 days of the 2002 Winter Games. The lobby
>         worked with Sen. Mike Waddoups, a Taylorsville
>         Republican, to shape legislation. But now it's having
>         second thoughts.
>             "We will do it kicking, screaming and yelling -- and
>         everyone will know about it," said Elwood Powell, an
>         Ogden lawyer and chairman of the Sports Shooting
>         Council.
>             Powell said the Waddoups bill needs some work. The
>         "controlled-access" areas that loosely define gun-free
>         Olympic venues could be stretched to cover "the entire
>         state," Powell complains.
>             He wants to see a definition for the "dangerous
>         weapons" that will be banned along with firearms at the
>         Games: "Does every lady have to give up her fingernail
>         file?"
>             Powell also is uncomfortable with gun owners being
>         left totally defenseless. What can they bring? "Maybe
>         somebody wants to carry nunchucks, I don't know. Or they
>         may want to carry tear gas -- whatever the ladies carry
>         in their purse for self defense."
>             Thomas said Mace probably will be banned from the
>         Games. But, said Waddoups, "I don't think you're going
>         to kill anybody with it. It certainly could be
>         disruptive, but I don't want to address it in my
>         legislation."
>             Powell said his group was willing to consider
>         surrendering weapons for the games only because of their
>         short duration and his expectation that few ordinary
>         Utah residents will attend.
>             He called the Olympics "a showcase for rich
>         celebrities" who can afford tickets at prices he said
>         could reach $800. "The rest of us will watch it on TV."
>             But Powell is adamant about getting a liability
>         clause from Olympic organizers, covering defenseless gun
>         owners who do attend.
>             "A person gets injured, they pick up his medical
>         bills, lost wages and future lost wages," he said.
>             "It's just not going to happen," said Waddoups.
>             Thomas was even more emphatic. "It will be
>         impossible for us to agree to that," she said. "I
>         checked with the insurance and legal experts.
>             "It's not something typically covered by any
>         insurance because it's impossible to prove the premise
>         that, `You wouldn't have been harmed if you were
>         carrying a weapon.' "
>
>
>                                    [Previous Story] [Next Story]
>
>
>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------
> ) Copyright 1999, The Salt Lake Tribune
>
> All material found on Utah OnLine is copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune
and associated news services. No material may be reproduced or reused
without explicit
> permission from The Salt Lake Tribune.
>
- --------------------------------------------------
>                                                   Contact The Salt Lake
Tribune or Utah OnLine by clicking here.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 17:07:15 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ALERT! Waddoups Will Not Back Down From SB 122!!! It's Now or  Never for Your Gun Rights!!!

This was forwarded to me, but I think it should be of interest to most of
you.  I have checked with Mrs. Tobias, and according to her, the
transcripts below are accurate.  Sen. Waddoups has not yet responded to my
requests for information.

Sarah



TO ALL:

See the below e-mail between Janalee Tobias and Michael Waddoups.  WADDOUPS
IS A TRAITOR AND IS SET ON DESTROYING OUR RIGHTS!!!

WE MUST BLITZ HIM NOW!!!  CALL, FAX, E-MAIL, VISIT HIM, DO EVERYTHING LEGAL
YOU CAN TO REACH HIM, AND YOUR LEGISLATORS!!!

YOUR RIGHTS ARE ON THE LINE!  If you need assistance, e-mail me.  I'll help
you get your faxes out.

Maxwell Smart


> From: GunFlower <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: SB 122
> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 12:55 AM
>
> Senator Waddoups,
>
> What happened?  The sponsorship of this bill re: guns and the olympics by
> you is scary to me.  It shows me that sooner or later even the best of gun
> rights supporters fall victim to those who advocate more gun control.
>
> Have you been threatened or something?  Just curious!  You're the last
> person I would've suspected to do something like this.
>
> Regards,
>
> Janalee Tobias



> From: Michael Waddoups <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: SB 122
> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:53 AM
>
> Two points I would like to make re SB122.
> 1. The main reason for concealed weapon permits is for self protection of
> individual and family.  I am convinced that through proper regulation of
> secure areas at the Olympics and the huge amount of security that will be
> provided, I believe this issue will be covered.
> 2. Because of the public outcry for the ban and the governors support, I
> believe it will pass this year or next and I would rather have control of
the
> bill than let Dave Jones of Senator Beattie run with the issue.  I
believe the
> final version of the bill will be acceptable to all but those who believe
> "this is the nose in tent".
> I think this will also set a precedent that the only exceptions are those
> passed by the legislature and the governor and higher ed officials do not
have
> the right to make these exceptions on their own volition.



> From: GunFlower <[e-mail]>
> To: Michael Waddoups <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: SB 122
> Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 12:39 AM
>
> Senator Waddoups,
>
> What?  What's this I'm reading?  I can't believe my eyes!  I honestly
don't
> think you wrote this!  I think your intern wrote this!  Please allow me
to
> comment on your (or rather your intern's) comments!
>
> 1.  This argument holds absolutely no credence!  This holds about as much
> credence as saying that there are enough police to protect all the
> citizens!  Police can't be bodyguards.  Neither can olympic security.
> Senator, there are huge amounts of security at the U.S. Capitol, and
still
> a madman got through and killed people!  There were thousands of olympic
> security guards in Munich, Germany, and still there were murders.  There
> were thousands of olympic security guards in Atlanta, and still there
were
> murders.  No one has ANY right to tell someone that there is enough
> security to protect everyone!  Unless you can absolutely guarantee that
the
> olympics will be crime free, then one cannot take away an individual's
> right to protection.  Concealed weapon permits are the self-protection of
> individuals and family.  You are right about that.  And the best way for
> anyone to protect themselves from criminals is to allow them to carry a
> concealed firearm.   THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE ABUSE OF A CCW
HOLDER--NOW
> NUMBERING ABOUT 20,000 HOLDERS IN UTAH.
>
> 2.  Unbelievable!  Absolutely unbelievable!  What you are saying here is
> that "it's better to pass this bill now because someone else is going to
> pass it later."  No!  No!  No!  We stop the bill from passing now and we
> stop it from passing later.  And in regards to public outcry, Senator, do
> you understand that you will have the backing of the gun lobby--the
largest
> political action group in the State of Utah--far outnumbering the
> money-sucking UEA political action group--if you stand up and say "No" to
> these gun laws regarding the olympics.  The outcry comes because people
do
> not understand the myths of gun control because they only believe what
they
> hear in the media.  Hold a news conference with some pro-gun folks
talking
> about why guns are so important for protection.  You've said several
times
> in the media that we don't need to change the laws.  Guns are not allowed
> in secured facilities.  So if the olympic venues are secured, there's no
> reason to change the laws.  And even if they're not secured, the laws
don't
> need to be changed.  Furthermore, the Governor and other groups do not
have
> the power to make exceptions to gun laws, so this is a moot point.  With
> this olympic gun bill, you are undoing the thousands of hours of work by
so
> many people to pass the laws that you helped to make!
>
> Wow!  I'm so surprised!  I thought I'd never see the day you'd fold.  But
I
> don't believe you are the one who sent me the E-mail.
>
> Please withdraw your bill.  It's the right thing to do.
>
> In freedom,
>
> Janalee Tobias
> "Guns Give Women a Fighting Chance"
>
> --------
> > From: Michael Waddoups <[e-mail]>
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: SB 122
> > Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:53 AM
> >
> > Two points I would like to make re SB122.
> > 1. The main reason for concealed weapon permits is for self protection
of
> > individual and family.  I am convinced that through proper regulation
of
> > secure areas at the Olympics and the huge amount of security that will
be
> > provided, I believe this issue will be covered.
> > 2. Because of the public outcry for the ban and the governors support,
I
> > believe it will pass this year or next and I would rather have control
of
> the
> > bill than let Dave Jones of Senator Beattie run with the issue.  I
> believe the
> > final version of the bill will be acceptable to all but those who
believe
> > "this is the nose in tent".
> > I think this will also set a precedent that the only exceptions are
those
> > passed by the legislature and the governor and higher ed officials do
not
> have
> > the right to make these exceptions on their own volition.
>



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 21:15:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: Re: Jan Graham called

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:36:05 -0700
From: Chauna Pierce <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Jan Graham called

This is a message I received back from Gary Cox concerning the new hand
gun bill he will propose this session. He is proposing it due to the
Triad Center incident when a mentally ill person killed an innocent
person. Your reactions are invited

Chauna

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:53:16 -0700
From: "Gary Cox" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Jan Graham called

Dear Chauna:

Thanks for your response. I really do appreciate your insight. One of the
things that I have learned while in this position is the need to have
variety, diversity, and difference of opinion make for better policy.

I was pleased to read your thoughts about meeting the needs of those who
can least care for or protect themselves. I agree. Our state has reduced
the resources available to those souls, rather than improved them. In fact,
we have essentially kicked many of these people out on the streets or into
the jails from those programs or facilities that previously helped them.

I am supportive of meeting the needs of the mentally ill or disabled. A
bill is not necessary to do this, but funding is. Our current Republican
leadership, unfortunately in my mind, has chosen other "priorities" such
as maintaining tax exemptions for special interests or major business.
That is one of the reasons for changing my mind about proposing a "gun
bill."

The proposal I am thinking about is more to awaken some of those other
legislators to the reality of the mental health services problem, than
to create another restriction. However, I must also say that, while it
is true that "people kill people," the access to guns has proven to make
this much easier for those who make that choice.

I really don't know how far this proposal will be pursued. I'd love to hear
back from you with some ideas.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

Gary

>>> "chauna" <[e-mail]> 02/02 6:28 AM >>>

Gary,

Jan Graham called me last week to explain why you will be submitting a hand
gun bill to the legislature. I agree that the incident at the Triad Center
was a tragedy, but I disagree with the perception of the cause. The old
argument, which is true, is that the gun did not commit the crime. A
mentally ill person committed the crime. Why was she still out in society
instead of treatment? If she had not had a gun she would have found another
way to hurt someone. A bomb, knife, fire, who knows. She could have bought
the gun on the street or stolen one. Penalizing Law abiding citizens for
the acts of a mentally ill person's actions is not the answer.

The bill you should be proposing is a bill to help mentally ill people.
Either treat them or keep them confined to protect society. This is
something I could see the government providing for persons who cannot help
themselves. Instead of giving mentally and physically capable people
handouts, help those who truly can not help themselves. Your emphasis is
all wrong on this.

I would appreciate a response.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your concern for me and the promise
you made to not introduce any gun legislation this term. I have realized
you are not really that bad of a person. No really I do respect you and
your views. We just see things differently. You have gained my respect with
this though. Thanks.

In Liberty,
Chauna Pierce

P.S. I have a new e-mail address. It is [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 21:15:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: FW: Some gun collectors fear proposal will put them out of business

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:50:56 -0500
From: Mark A. Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Some gun collectors fear proposal will put them out of business

http://www.freep.com/news/nw/qgun7.htm

Some gun collectors fear proposal will put them out of business

February 7, 1999

BY ANGIE WAGNER
Associated Press

LAS VEGAS -- Collectors who wandered the aisles at an antique
gun show on Saturday feared President Bill Clinton's proposal
to crack down on gun shows would put them out of business.

"That's a powerful weapon," Jonathan Peck, 86, of Avon, Conn.,
said as potential buyers admired his gun collection. "They're
doing a lot of things to take the fun out of collecting."

Peck and the hundreds of other collectors at the Las Vegas
Antique Arms Show swapped opinions of Clinton's weekly radio
address. Many said it was just another attempt to prevent
people from owning guns.

Clinton requested legislation to require background checks on
all firearms buyers at gun shows, which he said have become
"cash-and-carry convenience stores for weapons used to maim
and kill."

Clinton said the 1994 Brady law's requirement for background
checks -- meant to bar felons from owning guns -- now should
include gun-show sales by unlicensed collectors and private
hobbyists.

"We are law-abiding collectors. This could put collectors out
of business," Robert Lee, president of Hunting World, Inc.,
in Spark said, running his hand over a gun built in the 1500s.

More than 10,000 antique guns were on display at the show,
some selling for $1 million.

"Why should someone like Bill Clinton tell me how to live my
life?" asked Ron Holden, a collector from Williamsburg, Iowa.

Most collectors and those just browsing were offended by
Clinton's idea.

"There's less crime in that room than there is in Disneyland,"
show director Wallace Beinfeld said, pointing inside the exhibit
hall. "He's part of the belief that the Second Amendment is garbage."


All content copyright 1999 Detroit Free Press and may not be
republished without permission.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 08:16:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Dexter's statement on SBs 22 & 122

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:21:21 -0700
From: Jim Dexter <[e-mail]>
To: LPUtah Forum <[e-mail]>
Cc: Bill Barton <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, Jim
    Kirkwood <[e-mail]>, Janalee Tobias <[e-mail]>,
    Mike Ridgway <[e-mail]>, Ken Olafson <[e-mail]>, Betty
    Christensen <[e-mail]>, Cal Andrus <[e-mail]>
Subject: My Statement on SBs 22 & 122

Here's what I plan to say . . . if given a chance.

Testimony of Jim Dexter, state chair, Libertarian Party of Utah
on Senate Bills 22 and 122, February 9, 1999

Senate Bills 22 and 122 are bad ideas because they ignore reality,
Let's look at what happens in real life when misguided laws prevent
honest citizens from defending themselves.

Churches -- On June 11, 1995 a suicidal Raul Bonilla tracked down his
estranged wife and three-year old son at a West Valley City ward house,
then pulled a revolver and fired at least one round into the church
ceiling to convince her to leave with him.

Why pick a ward house? Because he knew no one there would be able to
oppose him or defend his wife. Was Mr. Bonilla a CCW permit holder?
Absolutely not.

Schools -- The tragic shooting of children by another child in Perl,
Mississippi was only brought to a halt because an assistant principal
had a gun in his car. As soon as his own safety was threatened, the
teen-age killer gave up. One child died.

But in Springville, Oregon when the emotionally disturbed pre-teen son of
two government school teachers and his friend broke into his grandfather's
house and stole rifles, pistols and cartridges, they knew there were no
guns in the government schoolhouse. One teacher and two children died
because no one could shoot back until the police got there.

Of all the tragic shootings in schools, none has involved a licensed
citizen.

Olympics -- In the Munich Olympics, a group of Arab terrorists seized
the Israeli section of the athletes' village. Before their brief reign
of terror ended more than 20 people died.

It was easy for the terrorists. They knew exactly where all the armed
guards were and they didn't have to worry about anyone else.

As the famous Lott & Mustard study proves, the stricter the gun control,
the easier it is for criminals. The more responsible citizens who carry
guns, the lower the crime rate.

There are well over 20,000 licensed concealed carry permits in Utah.
How come the schools aren't being shot up every day? How come there
aren't holes in the windows of every church in the state? Because
legally-carried weapons and, more importantly, the people who carry
them are not any kind of problem to worry about. You need not fear us.

No church, especially the LDS Church, needs any government authority
to ban weapons from their buildings or meetings. Nor should they ask
government for it because that would give government authority over them.

These two bills are bad ideas and bad law. I urge you not to pass them.
Do not say, "The world is welcome here" . . . unless you also include
Utah's law-abiding, license-holding, armed citizens.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:27:58 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Victory (for now)

HB 92 (Gun Control in Schools, Churches, Private Residences and Olympic
Venues) sponsored by Rep. David Jones, was tabled by the House Judiciary
Committee this morning.  This means it can only be revived by a 2/3
majority of the committee members, which is extremely unlikely.  HB 92 is
dead for all practical purposes.

Special thanks to Reps. John Swallow, Glenn Way, Katherine Bryson and Bill
Hickman for their active opposition to the bill.  (I don't have a final
tally, but I think only Reps. Tyler, Arent, Cox, and Hendrickson voted in
favor of the bill.)  Please take the time to thank our friends on the
committee for their support.  You might also wish to thank Speaker Marty
Stephens, who did not use his power to interfere with the open discussion
of the bill.  (You should have e-mail addresses already, so I'm not
repeating them.)

Governor Leavitt sent an emissary to express his support for the bill.
Perhaps some of us could help educate him as to the meaning and purpose of
separation of powers.  [e-mail]

Special thanks also to the MANY people who took time to attend the meeting.
 The room was packed, with overflow into the corridor!  I know you're all
busy, and your support is very much appreciated!

            *********************

Next up is SB 122, Sen. Mike Waddoups's Olympic Gun Control Bill.  I spoke
with Sen. Waddoups who says he is working on amending or revising the bill
to make it more acceptable to gun owners.  No language is yet available.

My opinion:  Sen. Waddoups originally said he was running this bill as a
defense against HB 92.  Now that HB 92 is effectively dead, there is no
reason for SB 122.  Since it will require MAJOR revisions to meet even
minimum standards of acceptability, it should be withdrawn and completely
rewritten.

Please let Sen. Waddoups know (politely!) that the current SB 122 is
entirely unacceptable and that he should either withdraw it, or releae new
language for review.  Please also contact the members of the Senate Energy,
Natural Resources and Agriculture Commitee AND your own Senator, and
request that they OPPOSE SB 122.

We're just about at the half-way mark for the session, so hang in there!

Thanks!
Sarah


Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com

Stop the Gun Ban!
NO-lympics 2002!
Check out http://www.therighter.com/nolympics
And now you can link directly to the Nolympics page
and join the nolympics mail list!


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:30:25 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: more on gun suits

[home page]
[Image]

  Top News           Gun Industry Wins Key Battle in Ga.

  Sports             By RUSS BYNUM Associated Press Writer

  Lotteries          ATLANTA (AP) -- After heavy lobbying by the National
                     Rifle Association, Gov. Roy Barnes on Tuesday signed
  International      a bill blocking Atlanta's liability lawsuit against
                     gun manufacturers.
  National
                     The law, which goes into effect immediately, makes
  Washington         Georgia the first state to prevent a city or county
                     from filing product liability suits against gun
  Business           makers. The law reserves that right for the state.

  Wall Street        Barnes, a Democrat, said the state has the right to
                     force Atlanta to avoid the costs of pursuing its
  Entertainment      lawsuit.

  Health/Science     Atlanta filed its suit against 17 gun makers last
                     week as the city was the host of the nation's largest
  Regional           gun show. As with similar cases in Chicago, New
                     Orleans, Bridgeport, Conn., and Miami, Atlanta
                     accused the industry of negligently designing guns
                     with inadequate safety devices and sought
                     reimbursement for the costs of gun-related violence.

                     The city plans to move forward with its lawsuit and
                     see how the court responds, Mayor Bill Campbell said
                     through a spokesman.

                     ``Now it's in the hands of the courts to take the
                     appropriate action and determine ... which side will
                     prevail,'' spokesman Nick Gold said. ``We don't feel
                     it's constitutional for the state to tell the
                     municipalities who they can and cannot sue.''

                     The bill, which was pending when the lawsuit was
                     filed and received final approval from the state
                     House on Tuesday, was supported by the lobbying
                     muscle of the NRA. The organization, which claims to
                     have 93,000 Georgia members, endorsed Barnes in the
                     1998 election.

                     ``It's the first of what we hope to be many similar
                     legislative efforts around the country in an attempt
                     to stop what we think are basically extremely
                     ill-considered, wrongheaded lawsuits,'' said James
                     Baker, chief lobbyist for the NRA.

                     Baker said the NRA is lobbying for similar measures
                     in Louisiana and six other states, which he declined
                     to name.

                     The bill's opponents said it unconstitutionally keeps
                     cities from turning to the courts after the NRA has
                     successfully blocked gun-safety proposals in the
                     Legislature.

                     ``If we can require that the pharmaceutical companies
                     put a lock cap on a bottle of aspirin for a headache,
                     surely we can ask them to put out some safety
                     mechanisms on firearms,'' said state Sen. David
                     Scott, an Atlanta Democrat.

                     In New York City, jurors told a judge they were
                     deadlocked in a private lawsuit that contends gun
                     makers should be held liable for urban shootings. The
                     trial is considered an important test case for the
                     cities' gun lawsuits.

                     U.S. District Judge Jack Weinstein sent the 11 jurors
                     home and asked them to resume deliberations Wednesday
                     morning.

                     AP-NY-02-09-99 1745EST

                     Copyright =A9 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
                     This material may not be published, broadcast,
                     rewritten, or redistributed.

                                       Home | Top of Page

02/09



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:54:29 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School

Thanks, Scott!

The Coalition of Religious Communities claims to represent "most major
faiths in Utah", so I'd assume someone from the LDS Church is a member.  In
my opinion, their representative epitomizes the very absence of religious
values.  She's arrogant, unwilling to discuss other points of view, knows
EXACTLY what everyone else "should" do, and presumes that she is the final
arbiter of what constitutes "proper" worship.  She even went to far as to
imply that for children to see their parents carrying firearms constituted
some sort of "child abuse".

What hasn't been published (nor will it ever be) is the tone of the
dialogue at the hearing.  The anti-gun people were unanimous that gun
owners are some sort of "vermin" who should not be allowed to participate
in civilized society.  "We don't want _those_ people in places like schools
or churches" sort of nonsense.  It sure sounded like "hate speech" to me.

Personally, I'm sick of it.  I'm tired of being treated like a cockroach
when I'm a law abiding citizen who takes responsibility for myself and my
family.  I DO belong in schools, my synagogue, and even the Olympics.  I'm
certainly more law-abiding than the members of the IOC/SLOC - and they get
bodyguards.

I think it's time we all get off the back of the bus and just say NO to gun
control.

Sarah

At 11:20 AM 2/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Notice that, like on Elder Jensen's interview where he called
>for a multi-party system but Dan Harrie changed that to allege
>support for the "two-party system", Dan Harrie continues to lie.
>He knows quite well that homeowners and church officials have
>full authority to ban anything they like from their premises,
>and that this bill would instead ban guns from homes and churches
>unless both the gun and home/meetinghouse owners jump through
>numerous hoops in advance. He also spins the polls by not
>accurately reporting the questions asked and the responses
>given.
>
>Notice also that iodine-grabber LaMont Tyler was the sole
>Republican voting for this bill, and that Dave Jones openly
>admits he is not concerned about crimes of violence in churches
>and schools. Perhaps these five scoundrels (the three Democrats
>on the Committee in addition to Tyler and Jones) actually favor
>them? Kudos to the eight decent members of the House Judiciary
>Committee.
>
>BTW, what is "the Coalition of Religious Communities"?
>Is the LDS Corporation of the President on it?
>
>Scott
>
>http://www.sltrib.com/02101999/politics/politics.htm
>
>Utah Politics
>Concealed Guns Will Still Go to Church, School
>
>BY DAN HARRIE THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
>
>Utah lawmakers on Tuesday rejected public opinion polls and defeated a
>bill that would ban concealed weapons from schools and churches and give
>homeowners and Olympic venues clear authority to prohibit firearms.
>
>"We have a responsibility to not do just what is popular at the moment
>but to push principles that are wise and just," said Rep. John Swallow,
>R-Sandy.
>
>Swallow joined with seven other members of the House Judiciary Committee
>to defeat House Bill 92 on a 8-4 vote. All three Democrats on the
>committee and Republican Rep. LaMont Tyler, chairman of the panel, voted
>for the measure.
>
>Polls have consistently shown the majority of Utahns favor prohibiting
>firearms from schools and churches.
>
>Supporting the bill sponsored by Minority Leader Dave Jones, D-Salt Lake
>City, was Republican Gov. Mike Leavitt, the Utah PTA, the Coalition of
>Religious Communities and the state Commission on Criminal and Juvenile
>Justice.
>
>But gun-rights proponents clearly had the numbers at Tuesday's public
>hearing, with more than 100 people jammed into the Capitol room and
>spilling out into the hallway.
>
>"Not one child will be safer because of this bill," insisted Rob Bishop,
>gun lobbyist and chairman of the Utah Republican Party. "You may feel
>warm and fuzzy inside, but it doesn't solve the problem" of violence in
>schools or other places.
>
>Retired Salt Lake City police Lt. Dennis Tueller called it "foolishness"
>to prohibit legally licensed concealed firearms in schools and churches.
>
>"We're giving the predators in society a better target zone for them
>to attack," Tueller said.
>
>But sponsor Jones countered that his measure did not seek to eliminate
>the right to carry concealed weapons, just to impose some modest
>restrictions.
>
>"There are some places that guns just don't need to be," Jones said.
>"I don't believe guns belong in schools."
>
>Jones said the main purpose of his proposal was to prevent accidental
>shootings, not crimes of violence.
>
>Gun-rights advocates repeatedly have challenged those in favor of
>restrictions to point out any examples of injuries or death caused
>by Utah's approximately 22,000 licensed concealed-weapons carriers.
>
>Utah PTA lobbyist Paula Plant recounted several instances where
>concealed weapons had caused safety concerns in schools.
>
>In one case, a substitute teacher took out his concealed weapon and
>showed it to his class, Plant said. Another time, a parent carrying
>a concealed weapon displayed the gun to a teacher during a conference
>and suggested the teacher should act in a certain way.
>
>"Those kinds of situations do not make children feel safe in school,"
>said Plant, and she questioned the training of concealed-permit holders.
>
>Linda Hilton, director of the Coalition of Religious Communities, evoked
>morality in her pleas to keep guns out of churches.
>
>"It is morally the right thing for you to do," Hilton said. "Bringing a
>weapon into a holy and sacred place violates everything that a holy and
>sacred place stands for."
>
>Copyright 1999, The Salt Lake Tribune


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:27:13 -0700
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gun suits

http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2558410353-5cf


- ----------

- ----------


01:47 AM ET 02/11/99

La. Gov. Wants To Shield Gunmakers

 La. Gov. Wants To Shield Gunmakers
 By ALAN CLENDENNING=
 Associated Press Writer=
           NEW ORLEANS (AP) _ Less than a day after Georgia became the
 first state to shield gun makers from from product liability
 lawsuits by cities and counties, Louisiana's governor said he
 supports such a ban.
           Gov. Mike Foster on Wednesday threw his backing behind a bill
 that would block a New Orleans lawsuit seeking damages from gun
 manufacturers for the costs of gun violence. The bill Georgia Gov.
 Roy Barnes signed Tuesday was meant to block a similar case by
 Atlanta.
           ``Georgia had no problem with it,'' Foster said while speaking
 to a civic club in Baton Rouge. ``And we, in Louisiana, believe in
 2nd Amendment rights.''
           New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial criticized Foster's decision,
 saying the bill ``is a sad sellout to the money and power of the
 gun lobby.''
           The bill's sponsor is Rep. Steve Scalise, who plans to run for
 the seat of outgoing U.S. Rep. Bob Livingston. He said the goal is
 to protect gun store owners from the cost of defending lawsuits.
           ``It's the criminals, not the small businesses, that must accept
 responsibility when they pull the trigger,'' Scalise said.
           Foster's announcement came a day after Morial suspended a
 controversial gun swap deal between New Orleans and Glock Inc.
           Instead of paying $630,300 for 1,700 new pistols, New Orleans
 agreed to give the Smyrna, Ga.-based company old police pistols and
 thousands of confiscated guns.
           Morial suspended the contract, citing reports that some of the
 weapons may have resurfaced in Louisiana, which would violate the
 contract.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:30:39 -0700
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Is this true or rumor

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From: "George Mann" <[e-mail]>
To: "Membercouncil (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Is this true or rumor
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:10:53 -0500
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Member Council of Tampa Bay - http://home.tampabay.rr.com/membercouncil


Is this true or rumor

BUFFALO NY FEDERAL GRAND JURY SUBPOENA FFL'S IN KENTUCKY FOR
>RECORDS OF ALL SALES....
>
>
>
>[This is happening in the Louisville and Lexington area's, and who knows
>where else too.]
>
>     I have in my sweaty little fist, a fax copy of a subpoena,
>delivered last week to a Louisville FFL gun dealer. It is one of many =
which
>were served
>to dealers in the Louisville area. (Since I will explain soon why YOU =
might
>be in grave danger from this, you might want to contact your favorite
>dealer, to see if HE got one of these, too!)
>    This subpoena is genuine - I've seen a few of them in my life!   The
>subpoena is for a Federal Grand Jury, in Buffalo, NY, convening February
>10, 1999. It is issued by United States Attorney Denise E. O'Donnell, of
>the Western District of New York, with the Assistant U.S. Attorney (and
>writer of the subpoena) listed as Kathleen M. Mehltretter. Issued
>January 6, 1999, it is for an appearance in that court, in Buffalo, to
produce
>the following materials:
>      (1) Every sale, trade, or other transaction to any person or
>      entity since January 1, 1991 which involves any weapon that is
>      capable
>      of firing ammunition 7.62 x 39 mm.; and
>      (2) Every sale made to any of the below listed persons since
>      January 1, 1991:
>      (I will omit the list of names. There appears to be only three
>       individuals,
>      though the list includes what could be aliases for each.)
>      (In handwriting attached is the note: "copies of 4473")
>      What this is, folks, is a request for evidence that someone listed
>         here came into possession of a gun chambered for 7.62 x 39,
possibly
>sold
>       at retail by an FFL in Louisville between January 1, 1991, and
>       now.  Now, herein is my problem with this: In the first request, =
it
>       states
>
>"EVERY sale, trade or other transaction to ANY PERSON OR ENTITY..."!!!
>Do you REALIZE what this requests? It is a COMPLETE listing of sales
>and transactions of SKS, AK-type, Ruger, Thompson-Center, etc., sold to
>ANYONE during this time period!!! NOT just the sought parties, who are
>obviously the subject of a criminal investigation, but also HUNDREDS,
>maybe THOUSANDS of law-abiding citizens who have lawfully acquired or
>traded the same type of LAWFUL firearm, through a duly licensed FFL,
>when they actually thought the United States Treasury and Justice Depts
>really WOULD refrain from establishing lists of those lawful
>transfers!!!
>     It was said to at least one party served with this subpoena, when
>he
>
>asked (FBI) what they intended to do with these list, that they (FBI)
>intended to contact EVERY PERSON ON THAT LIST to see if they still had =
that
>weapon, or if not, to whom and when they disposed of it!!! A FORWARD
>TRACE to seek out what weapons you own, based on the 4473 YOU
>thought could NOT be used for that purpose!
>     Now folks, I AM a "little" paranoid these days, I admit! But, I was
>NOT born yesterday, and, I've had WAY too many undesirable contacts with
the
>many-headed snakes of the Treasury Department to believe there will not
>be VOLUMES of abuse during this! And, I believe fully, that at the
>direction of Janet Reno, on behalf of Bill Clinton, this type of illegal
>forward
>trace and "ROUNDUP OF VIOLATORS" will become as commonplace as the
>winter flu! Look at it this way: You bought an SKS 6 or 7 years ago. You
>played with it, shot up a bunch of that neat cheap ammo, then got bored
>with it's lack of luster and accuracy, and swapped it for a cheap .22
>rifle for the kid. You did it at a gun show, and for the life of you, =
never
>even
>WANTED to know the name of the person with whom you traded. NOW,
>the FBI wants YOUR ass in "Club Fed", because YOU can't prove where
>your Charlie Trie provided "assault rifle" went! Scene 2: The FBI comes
>to your door with a warrant, and wants to see your SKS. No problem for =
you
>-
>
>you've got it right in the gun case here. You nervously provide it for
>the
>impatient mobsters at your door. They know you bought it after September
>13, 1994 - they have the 4473 from your FFL. They examine it well enough
>to know that you have added a fixed 30 round magazine, replaced the
>missing bayonet, and added one of those spiffy folding stocks.
>     YOU, mister, are GOING TO CLUB FED!!! YOU have created a dreaded
>"Assault Rifle", illegally, in violation of Federal LAW! Congratulations
>once-honest citizen - you just won an all-expenses paid trip for one to a
>Federal Pen, for 10 years! And your property has just been seized from
right
>under your wife and kids! It's starting folks.
>     Don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger! THIS IS REAL! Call Ms.
>Mehltretter at [phone] if you don't believe it, and ask about
>File
>No.:
>1998R00907!
>     Better yet, once you find out about this - I suggest CALLING your
>Congressmen (ALL of them from your state!) and your Senators to register
>YOUR COMPLETE disgust at the breadth of this request! Make them
>contact the U.S. Attorney Ms. O'Donnell, to make HER EXPLAIN why they
>need all THIS information about persons NOT being investigated by this
>Grand Jury! Make the U.S. Attorney EXPLAIN "WHY" they need this
>information, and just "WHAT" they intend to do with it!
>     This crap HAS to be stopped NOW! IF we can't catch it now, within
>two years (the remaining time with Sick Willie and his dysfunctional =
pukes
>incharge!) you will wish you lived in Russia during the time of Stalin.
>      Just Plain Old Craig Palmer, acting entirely alone... "If we wish
>tomake
>democracy permanent in this country, let us abide by the fundamental
>princi-ples laid down in the Constitution. Let us see that the State is =
the
>servant of the people, and that the people are not the servants of the
State."


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