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From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest)
To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #48
Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest
Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
utah-firearms-digest Friday, April 24 1998 Volume 02 : Number 048
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:53:38 -0600
From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Walter Williams in Today's Deseret News
[Image]
[Opinion]
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
Government caused Holocaust
[Image]
Last updated 04/22/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT
By Walter Williams
Last Sunday, I watched CNN's "Perspective," titled "Survivors
of the Shoah," a Steven Spielberg documentary about the Nazi
Holocaust. It was a heart-wrenching story about the slaughter of
millions of people simply because they were Jews. How could this
tragic inhumanity occur? The Jewish survivors chalked it up to
intolerance and bigotry, and urged us to judge people by "what's
inside," and not race or religion. But there's a problem with such
an explanation.
Historically, Germany was the most hospitable country for Jews
in all of Europe. This is not to say that Jews were not persecuted
in Germany, but life was far superior to Jewish life elsewhere in
Europe. On the eve of the collapse of the Weimar Republic, which
brought the Nazis to power in 1933, Jews were a major part of the
economic, scientific, social and cultural life of the country. While
Jews were only 1 percent of the German population, they were 10
percent of the country's doctors and dentists, 17 percent of its
lawyers and a large percentage of its scientific community. Jews won
27 percent of Nobel Prizes awarded to Germans.
During the 1920s, nearly half of all Jewish marriages in
Germany were to Gentiles. German Jews went to great lengths to
"become" German, including adopting the language, dress and
religion. Even Reform Judaism included features of Christianity,
such as worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath (after the
Holocaust, they've gone back to the Sabbath). Many religiously
Orthodox Jews considered themselves "German." Jews who immigrated to
the United States carried their pro-German feelings, so much so that
as late as World War I the U.S. government, at war with Germany,
brought prosecutions against Jews for voicing support for the enemy.
How did a relatively low level of hate and anti-Semitism
become the Holocaust? The road to the Holocaust was paved by the
centralization and consolidation of government power. When Hitler
came to power, he immediately embarked upon that road. Passage of
the Enabling Act (1933) and later the Law Concerning the
Reconstruction of the Reich (1934) enabled Hitler to centralize
power by dissolving all state diets, and county, city and town
councils.
Hitler then got control of Germany's labor unions and
consolidated them into the new Nazi-dominated Labor Front. There was
little distinction between the Labor Front's leadership and the Nazi
Party. Hitler gained control over agriculture through the Ministry
of Food and Agriculture. Through the Reich Food Estate, farm prices
were controlled. In 1934, the government established the National
Economic Chamber as head of an elaborate hierarchy of industrial and
trade associations under the control of the Ministry of Economics.
Whatever hate, violence and anti-Semitism experienced by the
Weimar Republic Jews, while deeply offensive, could not have
developed into the systematic brutality it did during the Third
Reich without an all powerful, highly centralized national
government.
Powerful government tends to draw into it people with bloated
egos, people who think they know better than everyone else and have
little hesitance in coercing their fellow man. Or as Nobel Laureate
Friedrich Hayek said, "In government, the scum rises to the top."
Decent people have little desire, or see themselves fit, to order
others around. In a collectivist state, there is nothing that
collectivist leaders must not be prepared to do if it furthers their
agenda.
The Holocaust's true lesson is that there is no greater
potential for evil than powerful centralized government. This
century alone, not counting war, 170 million people have been
murdered by their own government. Neither we in United States nor
Jews in Israel have learned the lesson of the Holocaust.
Creators Syndicate Inc.
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
- --
Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
<chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
"There are no victims, only volunteers. You volunteer by appearing uncertain
and afraid. You volunteer by being (as grass-eaters invariably are)
unprepared to deal with the dangers of life." - Cooper's Corner
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:43:40 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Re: Walter Williams in Today's Deseret News
At 04:53 PM 4/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
> Government caused Holocaust
> [Image]
> Last updated 04/22/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT
>
> By Walter Williams
>
> Last Sunday, I watched CNN's "Perspective," titled "Survivors
> of the Shoah," a Steven Spielberg documentary about the Nazi
> Holocaust. It was a heart-wrenching story about the slaughter of
> millions of people simply because they were Jews. How could this
> tragic inhumanity occur? The Jewish survivors chalked it up to
> intolerance and bigotry, and urged us to judge people by "what's
> inside," and not race or religion. But there's a problem with such
> an explanation.
Thank you, Charles, for forwarding this interesting and informative article.
While I think Mr. Williams underestimates the extent and depth of
anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe, including Germany, his essential point is
correct. Most Germans were "sheeple", perfectly willing to agree to
anything the powerful, centralized government said was "good for them".
Even the German Jews went along with this nonsense, even after it became
clear that the Nazis most certainly did not have _their_ best interests at
heart. And, of course, the Jews made the cardinal error of agreeing to
disarmament, without which it would have been far more difficult for the
Nazis to carry out their genocidal plans.
Mr. Williams is right. Neither Jews nor Americans seem to have learned
much from history. Simply saying "Never Again", without action and
responsibility, is not going to prevent future genocides.
Sarah
If a man riseth up to kill you, kill him first.
Talmud
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:54:58 -0600
From: "William Munny" <dwatts@trilobyte.net>
Subject: Fw: Duane Cardahl's Editorial April 22
I can't write as well as most of you folks, but it's the thought that
counts.
- ----------
> From: William Munny <dwatts@trilobyte.net>
> To: eyewitness@ksl.com
> Cc: Douglas R. Watts <dwatts@trilobyte.net>
> Subject: Duane Cardahl's Editorial April 22
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 8:43 PM
>
> Dear Editorial Board Members,
>
> I watched Duane Cardahl's editorial this evening and I must say, it left
me
> very disgusted! He talked about all the recent responses that KSL had
> recieved regarding a couple of his recent editorials. Specifically, he
> made reference to his highly opinionated "Girls and Guns" piece from a
> couple of weeks ago. He cited as examples (which would lead one to
believe
> that they were "typical" examples) one sensible example which supported
his
> position. Then he read an example of a completely stupid response that
> someone had written which dissagreed with his position. I would be
willing
> to bet that the example he used was at lease ONE of the poorest he could
> find.
>
> I must say, you would have a difficult time convincing me that his choice
> was totally deliberate. And if that kind of deception isn't an attempt
to
> manipulate the KSL audience, I don't know what is.
>
> I had hoped that KSL would have gotten beyond that kind of deliberate
> misrepresentation of information when good old Don Gale left.
>
> Guess not...
>
> You folks make a very good case for repealing the First Amendment.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> D. Watts in Tooele
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 22:47:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Wal-Mart stores
I have no idea where this happened. Does anyone know if this
is correct concerning Wal-Mart's alleged nationwide policy?
From: "Jim Woods" <jimloneeagle@email.msn.com>
To: "eagleflight----uNITED STATES Theatre Command----David E. Rydel"
<eagleflt@eagleflt.com>
Subject: Wal-Mart stores
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:47:24 -0500
Dave,
Would you please consider posting this?
This happened to me 4/21/1998
Let [me] state up front that I have a CCW permit.
I was in a local Wal-Mart store in my area, I was wearing my weapon
on my side in a high riding holster, my coat just about hid everything.
A security person (male) approached me and informed me that Wal-Mart
had a nationwide policy against anyone bringing firearms into their
stores. I did NOT see a sign warning me of this policy when I entered
the store. I informed him of this. He replied, "I'm tired of you gun
totin' rednecks trying to carry your guns everywhere you go, and we
are going to stop it." We had a few more words and I informed him of
the Second Amendment, which he laughed at. He ordered me out of the
store and informed me that if I ever set foot on the property again
he would have me charged with criminal trespassing. I left the store.
I urge all Militia and Freedom loving people to boycott all Wal-Mart
stores. Buy your products somewhere else.
I did NOT wear my weapon into the store to cause trouble. If I had
seen the sign I would have left my weapon in my truck. It was the
guy's attitude that really got to me. I vow to not ever buy anything
else from Wal-Mart, Inc.
For God and Freedom
Jim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 23:57:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Wal-Mart stores
I hope this answers the question posed in my previous post,
but maybe John Howard Freeman merely has the good fortune
to patronize a Wal-Mart store whose manager has good sense.
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:56:21 -0400
From: John Howard Freeman <autarchic@coastalnet.com>
To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Wal-mart stores]
Greetings All,
I wear my sidearm (Colt 45) in plain view (I don't need a CCW permit)
on my hip in Wal-Mart and have never been approached by anyone. I've
been doing it for years and will continue to do so, until properly
noticed by the manager. Not some five fifty an hour lackey. If their
nationwide policy prohibited "any one" (sic) from bringing firearms
into their store, how are they able to sell them in the sporting goods
section? So much for their nationwide policy. I believe [a] rambunctious
security guard was daydreaming. Furthermore, the Second Amendment
doesn't apply on someone else's property, only public property.
Steadfastly,
John Howard Freeman
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:55:49 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Re: Wal-Mart stores
At 11:57 PM 4/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>I hope this answers the question posed in my previous post,
>but maybe John Howard Freeman merely has the good fortune
>to patronize a Wal-Mart store whose manager has good sense.
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:56:21 -0400
>From: John Howard Freeman <autarchic@coastalnet.com>
>To: liberty-and-justice@pobox.com
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Wal-mart stores]
>
>Greetings All,
>
>I wear my sidearm (Colt 45) in plain view (I don't need a CCW permit)
>on my hip in Wal-Mart and have never been approached by anyone. I've
>been doing it for years and will continue to do so, until properly
>noticed by the manager. Not some five fifty an hour lackey. If their
>nationwide policy prohibited "any one" (sic) from bringing firearms
>into their store, how are they able to sell them in the sporting goods
>section? So much for their nationwide policy. I believe [a] rambunctious
>security guard was daydreaming. Furthermore, the Second Amendment
>doesn't apply on someone else's property, only public property.
>
>Steadfastly,
>
>John Howard Freeman
Except that here in Utah, concealed carry is lawful "without restriction"
outside of "secure areas".
I don't know anything about a national policy. I've never had any problems
in a Wal-Mart, but then I believe that concealed means "no one can tell
it's there unless they search me or use a metal detector".
Sarah
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:28:14 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
Subject: Teen-agers w/guns?
>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:46:06 -0600 (MDT)
>To: righter@therighter.com
>From: agr@aros.net (American Gun Review)
>Subject: Teen-agers w/guns?
>
>>From: JSFarnam <JSFarnam@aol.com>
>>Subject: Teen-agers w/guns?
>>
>>Children with guns?
>>
>>
>>Kid with gun saves Mother's life
>>
>>Elko, Nevada, April 8, 1998
>>
>>On Tuesday April 7, 1998, a 15 year old boy tried to stop an intruder from
>>beating his mother, and being unable to stop the man, ran into her bedroom,
>>retrieved a .22 semiautomatic handgun, loaded several rounds into the clip,
>>inserted the clip, and came back and shoot the assailant twice out of three
>>shots, killing him.
>>
>>He is credited with saving the life of his mother, and possibly the 3 year
>>old child also present.
>>
>>The mother suffered a broken cheekbone, a broken nose, several bruises on
her
>>body, and a cut to her forehead from the attack.
>>
>>Elko County Sheriff Neil Harris said his office likely will recommend to
D.A.
>>Gary Woodbury a coroner's inquest to be held into the shooting.
>>
>>"It seems to me to be a fairly clear-cut case of self-defense and if it
turns
>>out to be fairly clear, since it's involving a citizen and a child, as
opposed
>>to a police officer, who would be held more accountable in a shooting,
that an
>>inquest is not warranted," Woodbury said.
>>
>> -- Elko Daily Free Press
>
>
Sarah Thompson, M.D.
http://www.therighter.com
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns
away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't
want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns
are the police and the military.
William Burroughs (b. 1914), U.S. author.
"The War Universe," taped conversation
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:59:07 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
Subject: NJ STATE POLICE RAID GUNSITE LIST MODERATOR -Forwarded
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To: Multiple recipients of list <noban@mainstream.net>
Subject: NJ STATE POLICE RAID GUNSITE LIST MODERATOR
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list
Subj: FWD: URGENT TO ALL LIST MEMBERS
John Schaefer is the GUNSITE (API) Alumni List moderator. While I have
never met John personally, all the folks who have met him and known him
for years speak well of him. He is known as the "voice of reason and
moderation" in everything he does. I have read his frequent posts ever
since my first GUNSITE class and cannot recall anything that would have
indicated to the contrary. While it appears that that we do not have
the full story on this situation yet, I think that this matter cries out
for a closer examination.
Regards to all,
Mike Baker
**************************************************************************
From: IN%"frfrog@sprynet.com" "John C. Schaefer" 22-APR-1998 19:29
To: IN%"api@lists.best.com"
Subj: URGENT TO ALL LIST MEMBERS
All:
Welcome to Nazi Germany. And so it begins. Folks this is a REAL nightmare
come true.
At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machinegun armed agents of the NJ
State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home screaming
obsenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point. I was ordered to
the floor and when I couldn't get down on my knees fast enough because of
my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked to the floor, and my back and
neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper yanked on my arm that had been
injured several years ago and I yelled in pain I was Maced and then kicked
in the head at least twice resulting in a bloody lip and head pain. Of
course none of the storm troopers were wearing name tags. We were forced
into our living room, made to stand about in handcuffs for about four hours
in our pajamas while they trashed the house.
They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my
cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple of
buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this, my
Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA
Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round (the
kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb "practice
bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79 practice grenade
rounds that were on display in my office.
My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed and
roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked for some
clothes.
All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons all
over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what they were
doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got another gun nut."
They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating pain from my shoulder
and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what my "fucking problem was." I
was finally taken to the local PD where I was at least treated with a
little respect and compassion.
I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the hospital
were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain medication and
released. None of the hospital staff could believe what happened to me.
When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they had
left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components in my basement.
We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how we
are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in.
Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this
terrible time.
John Schaefer
- --
__________________________________________________
John C. Schaefer frfrog@sprynet.com
Excalibur Associates FAX: 732.341.4361
People's Republic of NJ http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/frfrog
"He who goes about unarmed in paradise had better be sure that
that is where he is." -- James Thurber
___________________________________________________
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 18:17:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Bennett / Bishop debacle
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 at 13:07:30 -0600 "S. Thompson" wrote,
for herself only:
>At 06:10 PM 4/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Rob Bishop gave Senator Bennett a lot of power at the Salt Lake
>>County GOP convention with his antics, using Bill Quist and
>>Gary Utt as his foils by invoking new and imaginary SLCoGOP
>>rules different even than the proposed rules sent to delegates,
>>refusing to rent the URA a table, stealing literature from
>>Hartley Anderson, destroying delegates' copies of an approved
>>proposed amendment on Fair Election Practices (which could
>>have eliminated the need for all the multiple ballots had
>>preference voting been used), having several people arrested
>>on bogus charges, and having his henchmen state that the First
>>amendment and free speech and press do not apply to delegates
>>and candidates at the convention, which Sergeant Potter of
>>Aaron Kennard's Sheriff's Department compared to a family reunion.
>What evidence do you have that this was Rob Bishop's doing, or even
>Sen. Bennett's? According to the admittedly unreliable SL Trib, Sen.
>Bennett denounced the shenanigans, and I've heard no mention of Rob
>Bishop's name.
As State GOP chair I suspect the Salt Lake County GOP officers
would listen were he to have objected to their shenanigans.
Regardless of his sincerity or insincerity, Sen. Bennett *did*
denounce them. This makes him look much better than otherwise,
and more likely to prevail in his antigun efforts.
>The only prominent elected state Repubs who have _not_ denounced
>it are Mike Leavitt and Orrin Hatch. (If you've got more
>accurate/up to date info, pass it on.)
Note that Mike Leavitt is in league with Sen. Bennett in the
antigun campaign.
>>Rob could easily and at any time have called off the dogs, but did
>>not do so. Senator Bennett came off looking like a saint in these
>>incidents. The USSC and NRA would be well advised to immediately
>>distance themselves from Rob Bishop, as his credibility is shot.
>>Gerry Arthus also points out that Rob Bishop has also failed to
>>condemn Mike Leavitt's distortion of the Arkansas schoolyard
>>shooting to call for further limits on RKBA and CCW permits.
>I would assume you're right that Rob Bishop could have intervened,
>but I actually don't know, nor have I discussed this with him.
>And it doesn't seem to me that it's "USSC and the NRA" who need to
>"distance themselves" from Rob Bishop.
It was my understanding that the USSC had retained Rob Bishop as
its lobbyist with the Utah Legislature. If he doesn't object to
the GOP's tyrannical actions, the perception may rub off on gun
rights people as supporting tyranny. The newspapers already attempt
to make gun righters appear as special interests who have no concern
for the rights of private property owners, school children, or
government agencies such as schools and universities, as though
governments could *have* rights rather than mere raw power.
>I'm not even aware of a relationship between Rob Bishop and the NRA.
While perhaps incorrect, there is a perception that the USSC and
the NRA are closely allied.
>It strikes me that it's a problem for the Republican Party to handle
> - they're the ones who came off looking like tyrants.
Indeed. However, the USSC has a contract with its Chairman.
>Nonetheless, I fail to see what business it is of yours. To my
>knowledge you are not a member of USSC, the NRA, nor the Republican
>Party. Therefore none of the above have any obligation to heed your
>admonitions.
Even if I am not currently a member of the USSC, political fallout
from this can affect me as much as its members and officers. FYI
I am a Republican Party delegate to both the county and state
conventions. You may want to request updated delegate lists if
yours do not list my name. I submitted and was signatory to the
above-mentioned Fair Election Practices amendment that Gary Utt,
at Bill Quist's request, trashed.
>If you'd like to direct comments to the Board of USSC, you have the
>contact information. I assume contact info is also readily available
>for the NRA and the Republican Party.
I'm sure the Republican Party has already heard far more than they'd
like from me.
>And believe it or not, Rob Bishop has the same freedom of speech
>that everyone else in this country has.
This does not extend to denying others freedom of speech, or
allowing the parliamentary processes of a political party he
chairs to be subverted. Didn't Voltaire say "I disagree with what
you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."?
>It seems clear that you have an extreme dislike for USSC and Rob Bishop.
Disappointment at apparently counterproductive efforts in pursuit
of goals largely overlapping my own. I send no such comments to
officers of HCI, CeaseFire, or VPC. (What is that last one?)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 18:18:00 -0700
From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: WELCOME TO NAZI AMERICA
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:16:20 -0800
From: Jon Roland <jon.roland@constitution.ORG>
Subject: Fw: WELCOME TO NAZI AMERICA
To: misc-activism-militia@moderators.uu.NET
Alert all persons and media in the New Jersey area.
- ------------------------
From: cas@alaska.net (Cas)
ALL. . . .
I JUST RECEIVED THIS FROM A LONG TIME FRIEND OF ABOUT A QUARTER CENTURY.
HE IS AN UPSTANDING CITIZEN, FATHER AND FAMILY MAN. HE WORKS IN COMPUTERS
FOR A MAJOR PHONE COMPANY. HE'S A PART TIME GUNSMITH, SHOOTER AND
INSTRUCTOR. HE IS ALSO A DEACON IN THE EPISPOCAL CHURCH.
THIS IS NOT A JOKE.
THIS IS NOT A DRILL.
Cas Gadomski
Alaska
All:
Welcome to Nazi Germany. And so it begins. Folks this is a REAL
nightmare come true.
At 7:15 this morning (4/22) over a dozen machinegun armed agents of
the NJ State Police broke down my front door and invaded my home
screaming obsenities. We were rousted from our beds at gun point.
I was ordered to the floor and when I couldn't get down on my knees
fast enough because of my artificial knee and arthritis I was kicked
to the floor, and my back and neck repeatedly stomped. When one trooper
yanked on my arm that had been injured several years ago and I yelled
in pain I was Maced and then kicked in the head at least twice resulting
in a bloddy lip and head pain. Of course none of the storm troopers were
wearing name tags. We were forced into our living room, made to stand
about in handcuffs for about four hours in our pajamas while they trashed
the house.
They took all of my firearms, MOST of the ammunition (go figure), my
cartridge collection of US military ammo, my lead ingots and a couple
of buckets of cast bullets, all of my business records, and get this,
my Gunsite 260 certificate (they left my 499 certificate), and my NRA
Instructors certificate. They panicked at a dummy 60mm mortar round
(the kind you can pick up in surplus stores) and a blue dummy 100lb
"practice bomb" (empty sheet metal casing) yet left a couple of M79
practice grenade rounds that were on display in my office.
My wife and stepson were verbally abused and my stepson was grabbed
and roughed up by one young punk agent and threatened when he asked
for some clothes.
All of the agents were pacing nervously about pointing their weapons
all over and were REALLY psyched up. They were really enjoying what
they were doing. I overheard several comments about "well we got
another gun nut." They joked about the fact that I was in excruciating
pain from my shoulder and knee. One storm trooper wanted to know what
my "fucking problem was." I was finally taken to the local PD where I
was at least treated with a little respect and compassion.
I was finally released on $7,500 bail and my wife took me to the hospital
were I was x-rayed, catscanned and given some serious pain medication and
released. None of the hospital staff could believe what happened to me.
When I finally got back to our house I was amazed to find that they
had left ammunition in my vault, and a lot of reloading components
in my basement.
We have retained a big time attorney (NRA member) but have no idea how
we are going to afford him and my retirement papers are in.
Your prayers for my family and I will be greatly appreciated in this
terrible time.
John Schaefer
- -
(Cas)
- ---------------End of Original Message-----------------
================================================================
Constitution Society, 1731 Howe Av #370, Sacramento, CA 95825
916/568-1022, 916/450-7941VM Date: 04/23/98 Time: 08:16:20
http://www.constitution.org/ mailto:jon.roland@constitution.org
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: jwaldron@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target
While the details continue to elude us, keep one thing in
mind: John Schaffer was not the ultimate target of the raid. The true
target of the raid is you and me. The purpose of terrorism is to
terrorize, and the purpose of intimidation is to intimidate.
A raid of the magnitude visited upon Mr. Schaffer appears to
be totally unnecessary. Given the fact that he was released on
$7,500. bail, the charges cannot have been too serious. What
justifies a "dynamic arrest" in this case?
Our masters are sending signals to the whole gun owning
community: cross any line, get out of step, fail to do exactly as we
say and we will respond with overwhelming force. Resistance is
futile. Just do what you're told and we won't do this to you... for
now.
ALL OF US are the target.
Joe Waldron
USMC(ret)
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:23:35 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target -Forwarded
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From: jwaldron@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: NJ Raid: The Real Target
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While the details continue to elude us, keep one thing in
mind: John Schaffer was not the ultimate target of the raid. The true
target of the raid is you and me. The purpose of terrorism is to
terrorize, and the purpose of intimidation is to intimidate.
A raid of the magnitude visited upon Mr. Schaffer appears to
be totally unnecessary. Given the fact that he was released on
$7,500. bail, the charges cannot have been too serious. What
justifies a "dynamic arrest" in this case?
Our masters are sending signals to the whole gun owning
community: cross any line, get out of step, fail to do exactly as we
say and we will respond with overwhelming force. Resistance is
futile. Just do what you're told and we won't do this to you... for
now.
ALL OF US are the target.
Joe Waldron
USMC(ret)
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:22:48 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
Subject: details on the incident in New Jersey. (fwd) -Forwarded
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From: noban@xpresso.seaslug.org (Bill Vance)
To: Multiple recipients of list <noban@mainstream.net>
Subject: details on the incident in New Jersey. (fwd)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list
On Apr 23, Charles Riggs wrote:
[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------]
To the recipients of this message on this list- please forward to other
lists -
My apologies for forwarding the message this morning from John
Schaeffer about the raid on his house in New Jersey without providing
additional details, but I hadn't yet spoken with John at that time, and
am writing this now to fill in the background.
John is 53 and a veteran of the U.S. Army, works in computers with one
of the largest phone companies in the country, holds an FFL, and is a
gunsmith and consultant on firearms and ammunition. His clients have
included police departments in the past.
He was present at the introduction of the Steyr Scout rifle this year
at Whittington center, and is a friend of Col. Cooper's, who is following
this affair with great interest. He maintains information about the
Scout rifle on his web page with the active assistance of Steyr, who
provide the photos to him.
He is a verger in the Episcopal church (assists with the liturgy) and
lives with his wife and stepson. He is a decent man and well-regarded by
the alumni of the American Pistol Institute/Gunsite Training Center, of
whom I am one, and is NOT accused of ANYTHING to do with drugs or
anything of that sort.
He applied to renew his FFL this year and met with several delays which
were not explained. The charges against him at this time state that he
provided false information on the renewal for his FFL, and other charges
related to this alleged misinformation, info which John provided as
required by law and in good faith.
He is also charged with resisting arrest after being knocked down and
kicked in the head by the New Jersey State Police, and while face-down
being sprayed directly in the face with capsicum by this same officer.
The charges against him were arranged by BATF, but the raid prosecuted by
the NJSP for reasons unknown. The raid occurred in Tom's Point, New
Jersey in the early hours of 22 April 1998 as a no-knock dynamic entry
when they kicked down his door and entered the house, screaming
obscenities.
They could have come and knocked on the door, and arrested John and
served the search warrant peacefully, but they didn't. They came in
hyped up and fired up, and revelled in "getting us another gun nut" as
they ran amok in his home. They knocked John down when he didn't kneel
on command, but John couldn't kneel because he has severe arthritis, has
had one knee replacement and is pending another. He can't even kneel in
church for the services. Apparently even if you can't bend your knee for
God, you'll have to do it for the NJSP!
They screamed obscenities and threatened violence throughout the raid,
threatened his stepson, and physically abused him by grabbing him by the
throat when he asked to be allowed to get dressed- and this while
standing in front of his house in his underwear.
I hope this is sufficient information for the members of this list
about John and this incident, and that you'll now contact the Governor of
New Jersey, the NJSP, and anyone else you can think of who may be able to
help us bring these thugs to task for their outrageous misconduct. Write
to your representatives and ask how it is that every time BATF is around
this sort of madness follows. Ask how it is that we no longer deal in a
civil fashion with peaceful citizens. Demand an accounting for policemen
who treat a member of the Episcopal church like a common crackhead or
violent felon.
If what I've told you in this message doesn't convince you to stand up
for John Schaeffer and take action, then I can't think of what else to
say to you, except that no citizen of this nation, no God-loving man born
of woman, should ever have to suffer at the hands of men who represent
the law in this way. If you agree with me, please raise your voices and
speak for John, and for our common freedom. Watch six- Charles Riggs.
Charles Riggs- Gunsite 1991- DVC!
"Stop Crime- Be Armed- Fight Back!"
Ky. Coalition to Carry Concealed (KC3)
IDPA (Ky) - NRA - GOA
Visit http://www.kc3.com
[------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------]
- --
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***** Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel! *****
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+---------------------
An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration. | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; | -- Max Plank | weapon sell his
hand = Freedom | DIAL | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side! | 1911-A1. | word. -- The Bible | sword.--Jesus Christ
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:32:50 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
Subject: WORK PLACE Homicide -Forwarded
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From: Don Loftus <dloftus@edu15.coe.ufl.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list <noban@mainstream.net>
Subject: WORK PLACE Homicide
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list
This is from the CNN web page and can be found
at:http://cnn.com/HEALTH/9804/23/health.jobs/index.html. What is
important to me is the statement toward the end of the article:
" The agency said homicides were the leading cause of work-related deaths
in California, the District of Columbia, Michigan and New York between
1980 and 1994. "
California, Washington D.C. and NY (most likely the highest percentage
form NY City) - all these places with high levels of gun control. Are
any of us surprised?
The conclusions at the end are kind of a "duh?" response.
Don Loftus
Gainesville, FL
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ATLANTA (CNN) -- Job-related
deaths in the United States dropped
sharply from 1980 to 1994, health
officials said Thursday. But
homicides have surpassed
machine-related injuries to become the
second-leading cause of on-the-job
deaths after motor vehicle accidents.
The Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention (CDC) said murders
accounted for 13.5 percent of the
occupational-related deaths between
1980 and 1994. Motor vehicle crashes
accounted for 23.1 percent of
job-related fatalities in the same
period.
Homicides surpassed machinery accidents
beginning in 1990. Machinery accidents
were third with 13.3 percent of the deaths
for the 15-year period.
The National Institute for Occupational
Safety and Health said on-the-job deaths
from motor vehicle accidents, machine-related
injuries, falls and electrocutions have
gradually declined since 1980, while deaths
from homicide have remained relatively
constant.
"There is good news in that the overall
fatality rate is on the decline ... at the same
time there are still a remarkable number of
job-related deaths that we think are
inherently preventable. That's where the
focus needs to be," said NIOSH director
Dr. Linda Rosenstock.
The agency said homicides were the leading
cause of work-related deaths in
California, the District of Columbia,
Michigan and New York between 1980 and
1994.
The institute said 88,622 workers died from
job-related injuries between 1980 and
1994. There were 5,406 workplace fatalities
in 1994, down from the 7,405 deaths in
1980. The institute said 3.3 million workers
were treated in hospital emergency
rooms for occupational injuries in 1996.
The CDC has estimated that the cost of
work-related injuries and fatalities is more
than $121 billion per year.
An institute report in 1996 found that
workers were at greater risk of homicide or
assault if they were involved in the exchange
of money, had routine contact with the
public, worked alone or in small numbers,
worked late or very early hours, or
worked in high crime areas.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed
to this report.#
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End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #48
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