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utah-firearms-digest     Wednesday, April 22 1998     Volume 02 : Number 047




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:29:27 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Fox News reports on unintentional shooting

Fox News reported Saturday evening (I think it was the 9:00 broadcast
but i could be wrong) on an "accidental" shooting here in SL County.
While I think many of us prefer the term "unintentional" rather than
"accidental", I was, nonetheless, quite impressed with their coverage.

First, they did not use the phrase "the gun went off" or anything
similar which in my mind always suggests the discharge was completely
spontaneous, an act of God, a cognizant act of the gun itself, or
otherwise did not involve somebody pulling the trigger.

Second, they had a fairly long clip (10 seconds +) of a police officer
explaining the shooter had broken all three of the most basic rules of
safe gun handling: 1--Always treat a gun as if it is loaded; 2--Never
point a gun at anyone; 3--Keep finger off trigger until you want to
shoot.

Third, I heard no mention or inuendo that the gun or even guns in
general were the problem in this case.  The overall tone and message,
IMO, was that a person was responsible for this "accident" which was
avoidable by following safe gun handling procedures.

FYI, at the time of the report, there had been no charges brought.

I intend to send a note to Fox thanking them for the manner in which
they coverred this story and encouraging htem to include these safe
handling procedures in future reports of unintentional shootings.
I encourage others here to do likewise.

If anyone has contact info for the local Fox News, I'd sure appreciate
it.  Otherwise, I'll try to track something down and pass it along.

- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:40:58 -0600
From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: Lott's Book soon to be released]

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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:00:53 EDT
From: EdgarSuter <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lott's Book soon to be released

More Guns, Less Crime:  Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws



John R. Lott, Jr.



University of Chicago Press

ISBN: 0226493636



(flap copy:)

$23.00
[advance order at a 30 percent discount ($16.10) from Amazon.com or

barnesandnoble.com]


    Does allowing people to own or carry guns deter violent crime?  Or

does it cause more citizens to harm each other?  Wherever people happen to

fall along the ideological spectrum, their answers are all too often

founded upon mere impressionistic and anecdotal evidence.  In this direct

challenge to conventional wisdom, legal scholar John Lott presents the most

rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever done on crime.  In this timely

and provocative work he comes to a startling conclusion:  more guns mean

less crime.

    Lott's sources are broad and inclusive, and his evidence the most

extensive yet assembled, taking full account of the FBI's massive yearly

crime figures for all 3,054 U.S. counties over eighteen years, the largest

national surveys on gun ownership, as well as state police documents on

illegal gun use. His unexpected findings reveal that many of the most

commonly held assumptions about gun control and its crime-fighting efficacy

are simply wrong.  Waiting periods, gun buybacks, and background checks

yield virtually no benefits in crime reduction. Instead, Lott argues,

allowing law-abiding citizens to legal concealed handguns currently

represents the most cost-effective methods available for reducing violent

crime.

    In what may be his most controversial conclusion, Lott finds that

mass public shootings, such as the infamous examples of the Long Island

Railroad by Colin Ferguson or the 1996 Empire State Building shooting, are

dramatically reduced once law-abiding citizens in a state are allowed to

carry concealed handguns.

    Lott maintains that criminals generally respond to deterrence: as

the risks and potential costs of criminal activity rise, criminals either

commit fewer crimes or move on to other areas. The possibility of getting

shot by somebody carrying a concealed weapon constitutes a substantial

risk, and discourages any sort of physical confrontation. Accordingly, the

states now experiencing the largest reductions in crime are also the ones

with the fastest-growing rates of gun ownership.  Evidence on accidental

gun deaths and suicides is also examined.

    Thorough and enlightening, More Guns, Less Crime is required

reading for anyone interested in the sometimes contentious, always critical

American debate over gun control.



John R. Lott, Jr. teaches criminal deterrence and law and economics at the

University of Chicago, where he is the John M. Olin Law and Economics

Fellow.  He was the chief economist at the United States Sentencing

Commission during 1988 and 1989.  He has published over 70 articles in

academic journals.  This is his first book.



(back cover)



"John Lott documents how far 'politically correct' vested interests are

willing to go to denigrate anyone who dares diagree with them.  Lott has

done us all a service by his thorough, thoughtful scholarly approach to a

highly controversial issue."-Milton Friedman



"Armed with reams of statistics, John Lott has documented many surprising

linkages between guns and crime.  More Guns, Less Crime demonstrates that

what is at stake is not just the right to carry arms but rather our

performance in controlling a diverse array of criminal behaviors.  Perhaps

most disturbing is Lott's documentation of the role of the media and

academic commentators in distorting research findings that they regard as

politically incorrect."-W. Kip Viscusi, Cogan Professor of Law and director

of the Program on Empirical Legal Studies, Harvard Law School



"John Lott has done the most extensive, thorough, and sophisticated study

we have on the effects of loosening gun control laws.  Regardless of

whether one agrees with his conclusions, his work is mandatory reading for

anyone who is open-minded and serious about the gun control issue.

Especially fascinating is his account of the often unscrupulous reactions

to his research by gun control advocates, academic critics, and the news

media."-Gary Kleck, professor of Criminology and Criminal Justice, Florida

State University



"Until John Lott came along, the standard research paper on firearms and

violence consisted of a longitudinal or cross-sectional study on a small

and artfully selected data set with few meaningful statistical controls.

Lott's work, embracing all of the data that are relevant to his analysis,

has created a new standard, which future scholarship in this area, in order

to be credible, will have to live up to."-Dan Polsby, Kirkland & Ellis

Professor of Law, Northwestern University.



"John Lott destroys the politically correct argument that arming law

abiding citizens will have a harmful effect on their safety.  There is no

doubt that criminals prefer to prey upon the unprepared.  This book will

arm those who read it with the important facts they need in order to decide

where they stand on the gun control issue."-Dale Gulbrantson, executive

director, Illinois Police Association, Inc.



"This book will - or should - cause those who almost reflexively support

the limitation of guns in the name of reducing crime to rethink their

positions."-Steve Shavell, Professor of Law, Harvard Law School







- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:26:18 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: http://www.standard.net....exe?local+16newsb9.htm

>>>>

<excerpt>Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:02:18 -0700=20

From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" =20

Reply-To: [e-mail]=20

Organization: XMission=20

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I)=20

To: [e-mail]=20

Subject: http://www.standard.net....exe?local+16newsb9.htm=20


In addition to supporting imposition of the smart card on us, it appears=20

that Sen. Bennett and Gov. Leavitt also agree on creating areas of=20

opportunity for criminals at schools, churches, and businesses.=20


http://www.standard.net/cgi-win/table.exe?local+16newsb9.htm=20

<<http://www.standard.net><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>
<color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Home</color></fontfamily>=20


<<http://www.standard.net/se_news/utahnews.html><fontfamily><param>Helvetica=
</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>News</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://www.standard.net/sports/sportsnet.html><fontfamily><param>Helvetica=
</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>SportsNET</color></fontfamily>=
=20

<<http://www.standard.net/search.html><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><c=
olor><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Search</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://www.standard.net/utah_central/forums.html>=
 <fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Cha=
ts/Forums</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://www.standard.net/~planner><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><colo=
r><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Planner</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://www.standard.net/newgifs/quickindex.html><fontfamily><param>Helveti=
ca</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Quick=
 Index</color></fontfamily>=20




<<http://www.zip2.com/standardnet/><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><colo=
r><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Yellow Pages</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://ads.standard.net><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>=
ffff,0000,0000</param>Classifieds</color></fontfamily>=20

<<http://www.newsworks.com>=
 <fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>New=
sWorks</color>=20

</fontfamily>




   =20


<bold><bigger><bigger><bigger><bigger><bigger>NEWS BEAT

=20

</bigger></bigger></bigger></bigger></bigger></bold>

=20

<italic>April 16, 1998

</italic>

<bold><italic>=20

</italic>

=20

=20



</bold><bigger><bigger><bigger> Bennett sides with Leavitt on gun issue=20


</bigger></bigger></bigger>

=20


 SALT LAKE CITY -- Sen. Bob Bennett is allying himself with Republican Gov.=
 Mike Leavitt and going against state GOP Chairman Rob Bishop on the=
 concealed weapon issue.=20



 "I happen to disagree with Rob Bishop," Bennett, R-Utah, told University of=
 Utah political science students Wednesday.=20



<flushright> In addition to serving as state GOP chairman, Bishop also is=
 the chief lobbyist for a pro-firearms lobbying group.=20




<flushright> Leavitt has said public schools, churches and businesses should=
 be able to declare their property off limits to people carrying concealed=
 weapons. That is counter to a 1995 state law that basically says people=
 with concealed weapons permits can take their firearms just about anywhere.=
=20




<flushright> Bennett said, "The University of Utah ought to have the right=
 to make its own decision to ban or allow concealed firearms. And so should=
 churches."=20


<bold><bigger><bigger><bigger> Mom pleads guilty in death of fetus=20


</bigger></bigger></bigger></bold>

<flushright> ST. GEORGE -- A LaVerkin drug addict has pleaded no contest to=
 child-abuse homicide in the stillbirth of her child.=20




<flushright> Dayna Louise Pittman, 38, is the first mother in Utah who will=
 be punished for the death of her own fetus.=20




<flushright> Washington County used Utah's child-abuse statutes to charge=
 Pittman with a second-degree felony homicide count stemming from her=
 prenatal use of methamphetamine.=20




<flushright> Pittman's no-contest plea Wednesday will be treated the same as=
 a guilty plea by the 5th District Court. Judge James Shumate could impose a=
 one-to-15-year prison term.=20


<bold><bigger><bigger><bigger> May 12 magic day for Utah taxpayers=20


</bigger></bigger></bigger></bold>

<flushright> SALT LAKE CITY -- Utah residents may have been relieved to be=
 done with their tax headache, but the average taxpayer in the state will=
 toil until May 12 to earn the money they pay the government.=20




<flushright> That's the 11th latest Tax Freedom Day in the country,=
 according to an annual study by the Tax Foundation. The average American=
 will have earned the government's share by May 10.=20




<flushright> New Hampshire's Tax Freedom Day comes the earliest, arriving=
 April 30, while Connecticut's is the worst, coming May 26.=20


<bold><bigger><bigger><bigger> Elite fire-fighting team disbanded=20


</bigger></bigger></bigger></bold>

<flushright> BOISE, Idaho -- The Boise Hot Shots, an elite team of forest=
 firefighters, has been eliminated in the wake of an investigation into past=
 misconduct by crew members.=20




<flushright> The crack 20-member coed team that fought fires across the=
 country and in Canada came under investigation for incidents of=
 "intimidation and hazing" prior to the 1997 season, U.S. Forest Service=
 officials said.=20




<flushright> Wednesday's decision came directly from Washington, D.C.=20




<flushright> Mary Jo Lavin, Forest Service director of fire management, said=
 the decision was made "to send a very strong message that conduct in the=
 areas of intimidation or hazing, or anything that creates a hostile work=
 environment, won't be tolerated." <bold> --=20

Standard-Examiner staff

- ----------

 and wire services </bold>=20


<flushright>


<bold><italic>=A9 Ogden Publishing Corporation, 1998

</italic>




- ----------



- ----------

<center>| Poll question | Back |

</center>


<smaller><smaller>Other headlines:

</smaller></smaller>

<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000</param>Week=
end Entertainment

</color></fontfamily>

<flushright><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>ffff,0000,0000=
</param>Your Vote Counts Election '98

</color></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Twis=
ters rare around Utah

</color></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>On=
 the edge: Draft day is here for Dyson

</color></fontfamily>

<center><<http://www.standard.net/mailer/mailer.cfm?story=3D=
 local\16newsb9.htm >StandardGRAM: Send this story to a friend

</center>

</flushright></bold></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></fl=
ushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></=
flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></excerpt><fl=
ushright><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushr=
ight><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushright><flushright=
><flushright><flushright><bold><flushright><<<<<<<<


</flushright></bold></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></fl=
ushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></flushright></=
flushright>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:34:56 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Colt President

>Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
>X-Sender: [e-mail]
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
>To: "Sun Tzu's Firearms Advisory" <[e-mail]>
>From: Danger77 <[e-mail]> (by way of Sun Tzu's Firearms Advisory
<[e-mail]>)
>Subject: Colt President
>
>To List:
>>From Danger 77 <[e-mail]>
>Forwarded without comment.
>_________________________________ Begin__________________
>
>FYI.
>
>In the last (current?) issue of the American Firearms Industry magazine, Colt
>President Ron Stewart suggests that we can regain the moral high ground by
>accepting a national handgun permit with mandatory training.
>
>With friends like this....
>
>"Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws." - Publius
>Cornelius Tacitus
>
>Larry
>Gun Owners of NJ
>http://www.users.nac.net/thelaw/gonj/gonj.htm
>
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:26:38 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: More on Waco, the story by "Pat"   -Forwarded

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Subject: More on Waco, the story by "Pat"
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

4-21-97

You know the USA is full of people like us. I was at the same house party
Saturday as my earlier story. There was a real estate agent named "Pat" my
wife and her office said I had to meet. It turned out Pat had listened to
Chuck Harders "for the People" and Ron Englemans talk shows here in
Dallas. She started back in 1992 and knew all about the governments abuses
and their support of gun control and other anti-freedom laws. A month
after the death of the Branch Dividians Pat worked a booth at a charity
golf tournament down in Waco. Up walked 2 Waco sheriff deputies. She asked
them what they thought about the Branch Davidian thing? The big guy said
well, we had to stop him. Pat said you mean you guys had to kill 80 people
to stop David? They said no that was the Fed guys. Pat said oh, so in
America you don't get a trial by jury anymore?.  They got mad and left.
But, an hour later they came back. Pat said did you guys take an oath or
something for office? They said well yes, to protect and defend the
constitution of the United States. Pat said can you tell me what the 8th
amendment is? They said well, no. Pat said can you tell me what the 6th
amendment is? They said well, no. Pat said then how the hell can you
defend my rights if you don't even know what it says? They walked away
with their their faces lowered in shame. An hour later they came back
again. They said she was making them think. Pat said did you have to raid
the place or were you boys to chicken to arrest David? The big guy said
no, David played in a band every Saturday night in town we could have
arrested him anytime we wanted to. Pat said did you know that the Feds had
no jurisdiction and you guys are the highest legal authority in the
county? She said you could have stopped the Feds at anytime. The big guy
said do you remember when David kept asking them to send in officer
"so and so" to talk with him? That was me, I was one of David's friends.

So even an average American Woman real estate agent knows the Constitution
and about the terrible abuses by our government. For me this proves there
is still hope.
Paul Watson, Dallas




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:32:36 -0600
From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Join Together Online

Garcetti just keeps finding new and inventive ways
to "tread on" the constitution...
(How does one define "gang activities" anyway?  My
kid wears baggy a**ed pants, I wave my hands when
I talk, and my wife has a blue bandanna....)

> http://www1.jointogether.org/gv/wire/news/reader.jtml?Object_ID=25838
>
>April 21,
>1998
>Calif. Judge Bans Gang Activities
> 4/14/98 Following an injunction from a
>Los Angeles, Calif., judge,
>certain members of the Mara
>Salvatrucha gang have been
>prohibited from associating in
>public together, UPI reported
>April 13.
>
>The injunction was issued as part
>of a public-nuisance lawsuit
>filed by City Attorney James Hahn
>and County District Attorney Gil
>Garcetti. In filing the lawsuit,
>Hahn and Garcetti said members of
>the Salvadoran street gang
>regularly commit crimes and sell
>drugs. The lawsuit aims to
>"restore the constitutional
>rights of a community under
>siege."
>
>The preliminary injunction also
>prohibits certain gang members
>from selling, possessing or using
>drugs or alcohol without a
>prescription; possessing drug
>paraphernalia; being within 10
>feet of an alcoholic container;
>blocking free passage in any
>public area; being in a public
>place between 8 p.m. and sunrise
>if they're under 18, or between
>10 p.m. and sunrise if over 18,
>unless they're going to a
>legitimate meeting, job or
>emergency; confronting,
>intimidating or harassing anyone;
>acting as a lookout; or
>possessing guns, ammunition, or
>illegal weapons.
>
>Source: Join Together Online
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 18:10:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Bennett / Bishop debacle

Rob Bishop gave Senator Bennett a lot of power at the Salt Lake
County GOP convention with his antics, using Bill Quist and
Gary Utt as his foils by invoking new and imaginary SLCoGOP
rules different even that the proposed rules sent to delegates,
refusing to rent the URA a table, stealing literature from
Hartley Anderson, destroying delegates' copies of an approved
proposed amendment on Fair Election Practices (which could
have eliminated the need for all the multiple ballots had
preference voting been used), having several people arrested
on bogus charges, and having his henchmen state that the First
amendment and free speech and press do not apply to delegates
and candidates at the convention, which Sergeant Potter of
Aaron Kennard's Sheriff's Department compared to a family reunion.

Rob could easily and at any time have called off the dogs, but did
not do so. Senator Bennett came off looking like a saint in these
incidents. The USSC and NRA would be well advised to immediately
distance themselves from Rob Bishop, as his credibility is shot.
Gerry Arthus also points out that Rob Bishop has also failed to
condemn Mike Leavitt's distortion of the Arkansas schoolyard
shooting to call for further limits on RKBA and CCW permits.

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:26:18 -0600 S. Thompson <[e-mail]>
forwarded to [e-mail] the following: (html deleted)

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:02:18 -0700
From: "Arnold J. Gaunt" <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: http://www.standard.net....exe?local+16newsb9.htm

In addition to supporting imposition of the smart card on us,
it appears that Sen. Bennett and Gov. Leavitt also agree on
creating areas of opportunity for criminals at schools, churches,
and businesses.

http://www.standard.net/cgi-win/table.exe?local+16newsb9.htm

NEWS BEAT

April 16, 1998

Bennett sides with Leavitt on gun issue

SALT LAKE CITY -- Sen. Bob Bennett is allying himself with
Republican Gov. Mike Leavitt and going against state GOP
Chairman Rob Bishop on the concealed weapon issue.

"I happen to disagree with Rob Bishop," Bennett, R-Utah,
told University of  Utah political science students Wednesday.

In addition to serving as state GOP chairman, Bishop also
is the chief lobbyist for a pro-firearms lobbying group.

Leavitt has said public schools, churches and businesses
should be able to declare their property off limits to people
carrying concealed weapons. That is counter to a 1995 state
law that basically says people with concealed weapons permits
can take their firearms just about anywhere.

Bennett said, "The University of Utah ought to have the right
to make its own decision to ban or allow concealed firearms.
And so should churches."



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:07:30 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bennett / Bishop debacle

At 06:10 PM 4/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Rob Bishop gave Senator Bennett a lot of power at the Salt Lake
>County GOP convention with his antics, using Bill Quist and
>Gary Utt as his foils by invoking new and imaginary SLCoGOP
>rules different even that the proposed rules sent to delegates,
>refusing to rent the URA a table, stealing literature from
>Hartley Anderson, destroying delegates' copies of an approved
>proposed amendment on Fair Election Practices (which could
>have eliminated the need for all the multiple ballots had
>preference voting been used), having several people arrested
>on bogus charges, and having his henchmen state that the First
>amendment and free speech and press do not apply to delegates
>and candidates at the convention, which Sergeant Potter of
>Aaron Kennard's Sheriff's Department compared to a family reunion.
    What evidence do you have that this was Rob Bishop's doing, or even Sen.
Bennett's?  According to the admittedly unreliable SL Trib, Sen. Bennett
denounced the shenanigans, and I've heard no mention of Rob Bishop's name.
The only prominent elected state Repubs who have _not_ denounced it are
Mike Leavitt and Orrin Hatch.  (If you've got more accurate/up to date
info, pass it on.)

>Rob could easily and at any time have called off the dogs, but did
>not do so. Senator Bennett came off looking like a saint in these
>incidents. The USSC and NRA would be well advised to immediately
>distance themselves from Rob Bishop, as his credibility is shot.
>Gerry Arthus also points out that Rob Bishop has also failed to
>condemn Mike Leavitt's distortion of the Arkansas schoolyard
>shooting to call for further limits on RKBA and CCW permits.
    I would assume you're right that Rob Bishop could have intervened, but I
actually don't know, nor have I discussed this with him.  And it doesn't
seem to me that it's "USSC and the NRA" who need to "distance themselves"
from Rob Bishop.  I'm not even aware of a relationship between Rob Bishop
and the NRA.  It strikes me that it's a problem for the Republican Party to
handle - they're the ones who came off looking like tyrants.
    Nonetheless, I fail to see what business it is of yours.  To my knowledge
you are not a member of USSC, the NRA, nor the Republican Party.  Therefore
none of the above have any obligation to heed your admonitions.
    If you'd like to direct comments to the Board of USSC, you have the
contact information.  I assume contact info is also readily available for
the NRA and the Republican Party.
    And believe it or not, Rob Bishop has the same freedom of speech that
everyone else in this country has.  Whether or not he chooses to denounce
Mike Leavitt  (or Sen. Bennett) is _his_ decision.  Whether or not the
Board of USSC, or the NRA, or GOA, or JPFO choose to condemn Leavitt and/or
Bennett is the decision of each of their respective Boards.

    It seems clear that you have an extreme dislike for USSC and Rob Bishop.
That's fine.  But if you really want to do some _good_, why don't you
either find a pro-gun organization you can support, or direct your vitriol
at the true enemies, like HCI, CeaseFire, or VPC.  Or maybe at your elected
officials, like Leavitt, Bennett, Cook, Hatch, etc. who so flagrantly
disregard your wishes.

Sarah Thompson
(for myself only)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:48:03 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Bennett / Bishop debacle

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:

>    What evidence do you have that this was Rob Bishop's doing, or even Sen.
>Bennett's?  According to the admittedly unreliable SL Trib, Sen. Bennett
>denounced the shenanigans, and I've heard no mention of Rob Bishop's name.
>The only prominent elected state Repubs who have _not_ denounced it are
>Mike Leavitt and Orrin Hatch.  (If you've got more accurate/up to date
>info, pass it on.)

I have no direct information on who did what and don't intend to jump
into the middle of any kind of argument here.  I offer this only as my
observations and for further info for all involved.

I saw the news clip where Bennett says he offered to pay the table
rental to allow lit to be passed out but the offer was refused.  I
think it was the county GOP that refused.

Interestingly, I also read in the Tribune that Bennett's campaign
manager, on Bennett's behalf, denounced the county GOP for not letting
all the filed candidates, including Arthus, address the convention.
However, as Arthus was asking to speak and then being escorted from
the stage by deputies, Bennett sat mute.

During his speech prior to the Arthus incident, Bennett apologized to
Anderson for what happened in Washington county and said he would be
pleased to have him speak for the same amount of time as Bennett was
given anywhere they spoke.  I'm guessing at the time it happened in
Washington county, Bennett was again mute.

It makes for good politics and photo-ops to play the good guy after
the fact.  But if he is going to denounce something like this, he
really should have done so when it may have made a difference, IMHO.


- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:51:00 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Moore Wants Hunting Bill Rejected  -Forwarded

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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

<gag>
 -----------------
http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center_story.html?FRONTID=ARTS&STORYID=APIS6KUO7GG
0

APRIL. 22, 01:44 EST

Moore Wants Hunting Bill Rejected


ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) -- Actress Mary Tyler Moore urged Gov. George Pataki and
leaders of the
state Legislature to reject a bill that would allow New Yorkers ages 14 and
15 to hunt for deer with
firearms.

The actress, a member of the anti-hunting group the Fund for Animals, said
in a letter Tuesday that
``our children and our wildlife deserve better'' than to have young hunters
eligible for big-game firearms
licenses.

Under the proposal, 14- and 15-year-olds could qualify for big-game licenses
if they complete a
10-hour firearms safety program. They would have to be accompanied during
their hunting forays by a
parent or guardian licensed to hunt in New York.

The current age limit to hunt deer and bear with rifles is 16 in New York.
Fourteen- and 15-year-olds
can already hunt for big game in New York with a bow and arrow.

Pataki spokesman Michael McKeon declined comment on the proposal.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:48:27 -0600
From: "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bennett / Bishop debacle

At 01:48 PM 4/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:
>
>>    What evidence do you have that this was Rob Bishop's doing, or even Sen.
>>Bennett's?  According to the admittedly unreliable SL Trib, Sen. Bennett
>>denounced the shenanigans, and I've heard no mention of Rob Bishop's name.
>>The only prominent elected state Repubs who have _not_ denounced it are
>>Mike Leavitt and Orrin Hatch.  (If you've got more accurate/up to date
>>info, pass it on.)
>
>I have no direct information on who did what and don't intend to jump
>into the middle of any kind of argument here.  I offer this only as my
>observations and for further info for all involved.
>
>I saw the news clip where Bennett says he offered to pay the table
>rental to allow lit to be passed out but the offer was refused.  I
>think it was the county GOP that refused.
>
>Interestingly, I also read in the Tribune that Bennett's campaign
>manager, on Bennett's behalf, denounced the county GOP for not letting
>all the filed candidates, including Arthus, address the convention.
>However, as Arthus was asking to speak and then being escorted from
>the stage by deputies, Bennett sat mute.
>
>During his speech prior to the Arthus incident, Bennett apologized to
>Anderson for what happened in Washington county and said he would be
>pleased to have him speak for the same amount of time as Bennett was
>given anywhere they spoke.  I'm guessing at the time it happened in
>Washington county, Bennett was again mute.
>
>It makes for good politics and photo-ops to play the good guy after
>the fact.  But if he is going to denounce something like this, he
>really should have done so when it may have made a difference, IMHO.

Thanks for more complete info, Charles.  I don't watch TV news, and to be
honest, I don't usually pay much attention to the Republican Conventions
since I'm not a Republican.  But of course situations like this demand the
attention of all citizens of all political persuasions.

I agree that if your recounting of events is accurate (and I have no reason
to disbelieve you), Bennett should have spoken up and/or acted at the time
the abuse was occurring.  I suspect he carries enough clout in the party to
have had a good chance of successfully intervening.

If you can shed some light on the Arthus affair, I'd appreciate it.  My
very sketchy information is  that the Utah GOP decided not to allow fusion
candidates.  I think that decision is wrong and stupid, but it's also their
prerogative.  So if they did in fact "outlaw" fusion candidates, conveyed
that decision to Mr. Arthus, and gave him the opportunity to decide whether
to file only as a Republican, then it would appear they did have the right
to disqualify him as a candidate and prevent him from speaking.  (I suspect
I may be missing some vital piece of information here, so please be gentle
when you expose my woeful ignorance! <g>)

Of course I have no idea of whether the Utah GOP may legally reject fusion
candidates, whether they followed proper procedures in doing so, or whether
they dealt with Mr. Arthus in accordance with their own rules.  And if they
are going to insist that they're a "private" entity, then they certainly
shouldn't be using taxpayer-funded facilities.

The whole thing stinks worse than a kettle of fish!

Sarah




Sarah Thompson, M.D.
PO Box 1185
Sandy, UT 84091-1185

[e-mail]

The proclamation and repetition of first principles is a constant feature
of life in our democracy. Active adherence to these principles, however,
has always been considered un-American. We recipients of the boon of
liberty have always been ready, when faced with discomfort, to discard
any and all first principles of liberty, and, further, to indict those who do
not freely join with us in happily arrogating those principles.
David Mamet (b. 1947)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:10:30 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Bennett / Bishop debacle

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, "S. Thompson" <[e-mail]> posted:

>If you can shed some light on the Arthus affair, I'd appreciate it.  My
>very sketchy information is  that the Utah GOP decided not to allow fusion
>candidates.  I think that decision is wrong and stupid, but it's also their
>prerogative.  So if they did in fact "outlaw" fusion candidates, conveyed
>that decision to Mr. Arthus, and gave him the opportunity to decide whether
>to file only as a Republican, then it would appear they did have the right
>to disqualify him as a candidate and prevent him from speaking.  (I suspect
>I may be missing some vital piece of information here, so please be gentle
>when you expose my woeful ignorance! <g>)

Actually, I think you have it pretty accurate.  Gerry contends the
bylaw prohibition on fusion candidates violates the GOP's own
constitution.  But ignoring that, my beef is with Bennett who sat idly
by when the county leadership, and the vast majority of delegates,
were opposed to Arthus speaking, and then later plays it up as the
white knight by denouncing through his people, the exclusion.  It is
hypocritical for him to play it both ways.  If he thought everyone
should be allowed to speak, he should have voiced it in convention
when his voice may have really mattered.  If he agreed with the
leadership and the vocal delegates, he shouldn't be two stepping now.

I too support the GOP's right to impose whatever requirments they deem
suitable in order to carry their banner.  Heck, I wish they impose a
few more requirments.  We have the worst of both worlds
currently--moral crusaders who also have no problem taxing and
spending.  At least true conservatives would leave my wallet alone
while they were peeking into my bedroom window.  :)

I am very opposed to the State telling parties and candidates that
even if the candidate and the parties all want a fusion candidate,
that they cannot do that.  If I want to associate with both the
libertarians and the independants and they both want to associate with
me, who is the State to limit that right over the trivial cost or
"confusion" of adding one line to a ballot?

- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The American Revolution was a beginning, not a consummation." --
 Woodrow Wilson, 28th President of the United States (1856-1924).

- -

------------------------------

End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #47
**********************************