ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/utah-firearms/archive/v02.n040

Internet Message Format | 1998-03-29 | 41KB

From: [e-mail] (utah-firearms-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #40
Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


utah-firearms-digest      Monday, March 30 1998      Volume 02 : Number 040




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:51:15 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: re: Mikey doesn't like guns  (Was: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ])

FYI, this article came from page A14 of today's (Friday, 27 March)
edition of the WSJ.

On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" <[e-mail]> posted:

>
>
>Maybe we need MIKEY to read this.
>
>
>We need to draw much attention to this article and point out Mikey's
>flaws!!!
>
>
>Make him eat crow!
>
>
>Chad
>
>
>
>
>>Envelope-to: [e-mail]
>
>>From: Dan Gosselin <<[e-mail]>
>
>>To: "'[e-mail]'" <<[e-mail]>
>
>>Subject: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ]
>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:17 -0500
>
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>Subject: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ
>
>>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:05:57 -0500
>
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"----
>=3D_NextPart_001_01BD5991.E6F8B1B0"
>
>>
>
>>http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB89095813222556500.htm
>
>>
>
>>                        =20
>
>>=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/public/resources/media=
>/125Side.map>
> =3D0 )   { document.write("");   } //-->=20
><<http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/interactive.wsj.com/tile125.htm;famil=3Dopi=
>nion;tile=3D1;ord=3D15429>
>
>
>> <bold>In this Section: =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/wwide.htm>World-Wide
> =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/asia.htm>Asia
> <<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summa=
>ries/europe.htm>Europe
> <<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summa=
>ries/americas.htm>The
>Americas=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/economy.htm>Economy
> <<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summa=
>ries/earnings.htm>Earnings
>=46ocus=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/politics.htm>Politics
>& Policy
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/weather.htm>Weather
></bold>   <bold>
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/editorl.htm>Editorial
>Page=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/leisure.htm>Leisure
>& Arts=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/voices.htm>Voices
></bold>  =20
><<http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/interactive.wsj.com/tile125.htm;famil=3Dopi=
>nion;tile=3D2;ord=3D15429>
> <bold>
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/toc.htm>Table
>of Contents </bold>     <bold>Related Sites: =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/summar=
>ies/barrons.htm>Barron's
>Online    <<http://www.smartmoney.com/>SmartMoney Interactive  =20
><<http://careers.wsj.com/>Careers.wsj.com  =20
><<http://bd.dowjones.com/index.asp?From=3DWSJIE>Business Directory  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/Publib/>Publications
>Library  =20
><<http://play.rbn.com/?dowjones/wsj/demand/headlines.rm>WSJ.COM Radio
>
>>   Hear top news of the hour with
><<http://www.real.com/products/player/index.html>RealPlayer 5.0
>
>>   Search/Archives: =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/search.htm>Search
> =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/bbsearch.htm>Briefing
>Books  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/qsearch.htm>Quotes
> =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/past/summaries=
>/menu.html>Past
>Editions  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/current/articl=
>es/JournalLinks.htm>Journal
>Links  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/special.htm>Special
>Reports </bold>    <bold>Resources: =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/help.htm>Help
> =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/new.htm>New
>=46eatures  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/user-cgi-bin/userMenu.=
>html>Your
>Account  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/contact.htm>Contact
>Us  =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/resources/docu=
>ments/glossary.htm>Glossary
></bold>     <bold>Advertising: =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/edition/ads/hosted/ad.=
>htm>Advertisers
> =20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/archive/classifieds.ht=
>ml>E-Mart
> March 27, 1998</bold>  <<mailto:[e-mail]>=20
>
><bold><bigger>>
>
>>
>
>> The Real Lesson
>
>> Of the School Shootings
>
></bigger></bold>>
>
>>
>
><bold>>By JOHN R. LOTT JR.
>
></bold>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred
>calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings
>occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is
>illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have
>had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all
>allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for
>self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law
>generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not
>quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more
>regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious
>policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is
>law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them.
>Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating
>situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad
>ones.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of
>the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An
>assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically
>immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the
>police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students
>(after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives
>the assistant principal saved by his prompt response?
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed
>handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in
>progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring.
>Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out
>machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with
>expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon
>found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice
>it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public
>shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow
>the intended victims to respond.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further
>illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and
>eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier
>while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles
>Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests
>to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave.
>Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several
>parents said."
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied
>multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These
>were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a
>public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we
>excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as
>robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average
>of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other
>methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one
>policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these
>shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults
>the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal
>record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic.
>Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during
>the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings
>declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by
>90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the
>death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the
>effects were never statistically significant.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple
>victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet
>these are surely the murders that attract national as well as
>international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims
>recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically
>shoots his cowering prey.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided
>coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive
>massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5
>million times each year that people use guns defensively--including
>cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are
>ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from
>being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
>>Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have
>backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made
>them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school
>policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal
>concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy
>and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help
>protect children.
>
>>
>
>>=20
>
>>
>
><italic>>Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law,
>is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from
>the University of Chicago Press.
>
></italic>>
>
>>=20
><<http://interactive.wsj.com/edition/current/articles/SB89095813222556500.ht=
>m#top>Return
>to top of page <bold>Copyright =A9 1998 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All
>Rights Reserved.</bold>  =3D0 )   {  s +=3D "<<SC" + "RIPT ";  s +=3D
>'Language=3D"Javascript"=DD src=3D"/edition/resources/documents/ppath.js">';=
>=20
>s +=3D "";  document.write( s );  } //--> =20
>
>>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Chad Leigh              Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net
>
>[e-mail]         [e-mail]        [e-mail]
>
>=46ull service WWW services from just space to complete sites.
>
>Low cost virtual servers.    DB integration. Tango.
>
>Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses.  POP3 and IMAP
>
>Email Accounts.  mailto:[e-mail] for any of these.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>-
>
>


- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
 of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
 the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
 general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
 inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
 appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
 academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
 offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
 by President Washington.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 19:42:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Courts Are Above the Constitution?

Forward
From: "[e-mail]"
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:28:56 +0000
Subject: DOJ Confides Disloyalty to US Const.

by WILLIAM MICHAEL KEMP
[e-mail]
The Vigo Examiner

In December 1997, the Unites Stated Department of Justice
received a letter from a group which put forward the
position that the right to keep and bear arms was a right
held by individuals, predated the Constitution, and was
simply affirmed and guaranteed by the second Article of
the Bill of Rights, not granted by it.

Recently they got their reply, having waited only three months.
In a letter dated March 18, 1998, the Department of Justice
(DOJ), in the person of James S. Reynolds, Chief of the
Terrorism and Violent Crime Section, answered this assertion
with a listing of citations of case law, as handed down by
the Supreme Court and various U.S. Courts of Appeal over the
last sixty years. In these cites, it is asserted that the
Constitution does not grant a right to individuals to own
and use firearms.

All appeared well. The DOJ was in agreement. Not quite. The
DOJ went on to assert that because the Constitution is not
the source of rights, that at least one of the rights it
guarantees does not exist. Reynolds asserts that these court
decisions supercede the Constitution, and that the right does
not exist because the courts have said it does not exist,
regardless of what the Constitution says on the matter.

The reply concludes by quoting from a letter from Mary C. Lawton,
Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel,
to George Bush, Chairman, Republican National Committee (July
19, 1973): "...it must be considered as settled that there is
no personal constitutional right, under the Second Amendment,
to own or use a gun." Mr. Reynolds further confides that this
loyalty to the courts, not the Constitution, is the position
of the current Department of Justice, and that this position
has long been held by the Department under both Democratic and
Republican administrations.

Gun control activists have expressed their satisfaction over
this position, and state their intention to further press for
limits on individual freedom to and use of firearms. Several
have noted, however, that the blunt statement expressed in
this letter from the Department of Justice will likely
infuriate the legions of American gun rights activists, and
may well make the slow, steady elimination of firearms from
personal possession all the more difficult.

Gun rights activists also take the position that the Constitution
"grants" no rights whatsoever. They cite Thomas Jefferson's
Declaration of Independence, wherein Jefferson states that men
"...are endowed by their Creator" with rights, and that therefore,
the Constitution is only the government's solemn written contract
to preserve the preexisting rights. Some say this point is blatantly
contradicted in the Department of Justice letter, and by several
of the case law cites which are invoked to support their position.

These gun rights adherents further cite the wording of the Bill
of Rights itself, which states in part that "..the right of the
people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." They note
that where the phrase "the people" is used in all other parts
of the Constitution, it invariably and inarguably means, and is
universally accepted as "the collection of individual Americans."

Strict Constitutional constructionists, they attack the Justice
Department's reliance on case law, and claim that the Department
of Justice's reliance upon "the Courts'" opinions is akin to the
defendants at Nuremberg (war criminals trials after World War II)
claiming to be "following orders," and point out that each
Constitutional officer is required to swear an individual oath
to the Constitution, not the courts. They say that Article VI of
the Constitution requires strict adherence by all legislative,
executive, and judicial officers to the Constitution, not the
courts.

They further cite Jefferson's Declaration of Independence,
pointing out that this foundation of American government requires
that the people alter or abolish any government which fails to
support the premise of individual rights, subsequently guaranteed
by the Constitution. They allege that any judge (or any government
employee) who has taken the position that government is not
absolutely bound to support individual rights over the delegated
power of government is in violation of their oath of office,
and has thus vacated their office and their authority.

The Department of Justice's position is currently demonstrated
in several situations present in the news, most recently in the
arrest of several men in Michigan, accused of possessing what the
Department of Justice refers to as "illegal firearms." One of the
firearms in question is called, by government attorneys, a "sniper
rifle accurate to over a mile." At least one of the defendants
in that case is alleging in his defense that there is no such
thing as an "illegal firearm" when possessed by a free American.

A gun rights and citizens' militia activist was interviewed
at a shooting range, and prior to the interview, used a bolt
action rifle with telescopic sights to demonstrate the accuracy
of the firearm. From a sandbagged position, he fired several
shots in succession at targets not visible to the naked eye at
the considerable distance covered. Upon examination, several
soft drink bottle caps and brass shell casings were observed
with bullet holes through them. He referred to the firearm as
"a deer rifle."

The man, who spoke with the assurance of anonymity, scoffed at
the promised anonymity. "They know who I am," he stated. When
questioned who "they" were, he replied "the government-- or,
I should say, their secret police."

Pushed for an explanation, he pointed out that this reporter
had no difficulty in locating a spokesman for the gun activists'
viewpoint. He further pointed out that he was routinely
contacted at home by various representatives of the media.
He then asserted that government employees were indeed
anonymous, removed from the citizenry over whom they allege
control, and that they were following the same path embarked
upon by representatives of King George in colonial times in
the effort to further their unlawful control over the citizenry.

This gentleman asserted that the founders of the United States
pointedly affirmed the right of Americans to keep and bear arms,
ascribed the success of the revolution against England to the
armed citizenry, and trumpeted the American government as being
qualitatively different from all the other governments of the
world, in that the government not only trusted the citizenry
to be armed, but in fact depended upon the citizens' armament
to maintain their hard-won freedom.

"King George assumed the power to disarm Americans, and his
representatives attempted to exercise that power," he stated.
"That government was proven to be in error."

Not all gun rights activists, however, are so alienated by the
actions and attitude of the DOJ. The National Rifle Association,
a long time supporter of law enforcement, successfully lobbied
for passage of HR 666 in January of 1995. This law allows
warrantless search and seizure. Some have alleged that it has
completely compromised the Fourth Amendment. The Department of
Justice maintains the position stated in the referenced letter.

Copyright (c) 1998, The Vigo Examiner
http://www.Vigo-Examiner.com

Enjoy a 90 day free trial subscription to the email
version of The Vigo Examiner. To receive one or two
of the top stories or editorials by email each day,
send your request to [e-mail].



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 19:42:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: rights *granted* by CONstitution

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:18:27 -0600
From: Jim <[e-mail]>
To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>

Scott Bergeson wrote:
> This is what your government thinks of your *rights* as *conferred*
> by the CONstitution.

> Mike Kemp

> Note: The New Jersey Militia received the following letter,
> dated 3/18/98, from the U.S. Department of Justice in
> response to our inquiry over their official position on the
> Second Amendment.

> Dear Mr. [Deleted]

> This responds to your letter from December 1997 in which you
> express your concern about the official position of the Department
> of Justice regarding the Second Amendment. You relate the argument
> of Professor Copperud, that the Second Amendment is simply the
> confirmation of a preexisting individual right to bear arms.

> Ultimately, however, it is the U.S. Supreme Court and the lower
> Federal courts that are the final arbiter of the meaning of the
> Constitution.

Yes but the Bill of Rights does guarantee the right to keep and
bear arms. Of course the Constitution doesn't it created the federal
government and assigned it 18 powers. The Bill of Rights has its own
preamble and stands alone. Don't be fooled by its being jammed up
"under" the Constitution and its preamble dropped to make you think
it an organic part of the Constitution. Your rights come from nature
and nature's God.

There is a maxim of law which says that a creation may not harm its
creator. Look at the sequence below and remember or learn the true
history of the united States.

People
state Constitutions
state governments
uS Constitution
uS government
14th Amendment
14th Amendment citizens.

We need a knowledge of how the country was set up in order to
reclaim our rights that were a condition placed on the Constitution.
They didn't get to have their constitution until they made a
contract not to do certain things.

Today people in ignorance of the true meaning of their acts
accept benefits from government that strip away their "rights".
The governments ultimate power is over paper. It is words on
paper that have put us in the position we find ourselves in now.
Words on paper can also free you to pursue your life freely
unencumbered but you need knowledge to make this work.

Here are some non sequiturs:

Governments have the right to print money but seem to prefer
to borrow it. Huh???

People trade their rights and freedoms for little pieces of paper
that aren't money but debt. Huh?

People created the constitutions and governments and are everywhere
acknowledged as the sovereigns here but believe bureaucrats who say
you must obey because we signed a contract on your behalf that
obligates you. Huh?

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 22:37:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Insider Info on Shooting

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:21:46 -0800
From: Liberty or Death <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail], [e-mail],
    [e-mail]

Forwarded from another list...don't complain about the all-caps, that's
how I got it.

- -------

AN EMPL0YEE HERE IN MY DEPT. ALSO IS A POLICE RESERVIST AND WORKS THE
JAIL.  BOTH THE BOYS WHO DID THE SHOOTING WERE LOCKED DOWN IN THEIR
CELLS ABOUT 9PM AND WENT IMMEDIATELY TO SLEEP, NO PROBLEM.  SLEPT ALL
NIGHT.  DIDN'T SEEM TO SHOW AN REMORSE OR ANGER OR ANYTHING.  JUST
SEEMED LIKE LITTLE KIDS WHO HAD A ROUGH DAY PLAYING ON THE PLAYGROUND.
THE 13 YEAR OLD'S MOTHER AND STEP FATHER CAME IN THE NEXT MORNING, AND
THIER FIRST QUESTION TO THE DESK SARGEANT WAS "WHEN CAN WE GET OUR VAN
BACK?"  THE NEXT QUESTION WAS, "WELL, CAN WE AT LEAST GET THE CAR SEAT
OUT OF THE VAN?  IT'S THE ONLY ONE WE HAVE."  NEITHER SEEMED TO
CONCERNED OR BOTHERED ABOUT THE EVENTS OF THE PREVIOUS DAY.  THE 11
YEAR OLDS PARENTS WERE HISTARICOL.

THE DAY MORNING THIS HAPPENED, THE TWO BOYS TOOK A TORCH TO THE 11 YEAR
OLD BOYS DAD'S GUN SAFE AND COULDN'T GET TO THEM.  SO THEY WENT TO THE
13 YEAR OLDS HOUSE AND BROKE A WINDOW OUT TO GET IN AND STOLE ALL HIS
WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION.  THE GRANDFATHER IS DOUG GOLDEN AND IS AN
ARKANSAS STATE WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT OFFICER AND IS ALSO A GUN COLLECTOR
LIKE THE BOYS FATHER.  IF THIS DOESN'T SHOW A THOUGHT PROCESS AND
PREMEDITATION THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD.

THE ENTIRE TOWN IS TURNED UPSIDE DOWN.  HILLCREST ELEMENTARY ACROSS
TOWN HAD A FIRE IN THE KITCHEN, AND THEY WERE TOO AFRAID TO PULL THE
FIRE ALARM, SO THEY RAN FROM ROOM TO ROOM ANNOUNCING AN EVAC.  THE
FIRE DEPT. SHOWED AND PUT IT OUT WITHOUT HARM.  ALL RADIO STATIONS AND
MEDIA ARE GATHERING MONEY DONATIONS FOR RELIEF FOR THE VICTIMS AND
THIER FAMILIES.  THE RED CROSS IS WORKING 24 HOURS A DAY TO TAKE BLOOD
DONATIONS AND MONEY DONATIONS.  THERE IS NOTHING ON ANYONES MIND AT
THIS TIME BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHY.

- -------

- - Monte

 --------------------------------------------------------------------
  "Maybe freedom's just one of those things that you can't inherit."
               - Peter Bradford, in the film "Amerika"
 --------------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Idaho Observer
                 http://www.proliberty.com/observer


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:40:58 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Preaching to someone other than the choir

Thought y'all might be interested to know that I emailed a copy of the
WSJ article to several State Legislators and Governor Mikey
<[e-mail]> as well as several editors, etc at the Desnews
and Tribune.  I received the following response from one of the
legislators.  Identifiing info redacted.

If you haven't done so already, you should perhaps forward copies to
your State legislators, the governor, the papers, etc.  And keep a
copy handy to pass on to any newly elected legislators.

- ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----

Mr. Hardy,
Thank you for this well reasoned response to the latest tragedy in Arkansas.  To
my astonishment, our "conservative" republican governor in Utah used this
deviant behavior as a call to prohibit weapons on school grounds by concealed
weapon permit holders.  HIs response was an emotional one, yours a practical and
responsible one.  I would like to get a copy of "More Guns, Less Crime" when it
is available.

- ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

- --

Charles C. Hardy  | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>   | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)  | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

 A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse
 built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis
 for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts),
 Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:22:29 -0700
From: "larry larsen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Preaching to someone other than the choir

To freedom loving Uthans,
I believe it is time to stop, if you haven't already, supporting Mike
Leavett as governor of Utah.  Conditions should not be made favorable for
him to consider a third term in office. All freedom loving people should be
made aware of his anti constitutional stance, and no support should be given
him from any moral person. I see where his thoughts lie, and they are to
impress the big time government, and world leaders who are watching Utah
prepare for the up coming Olympics. The Governor wishes to stand out in all
his glory at the Olympics, and during this time of preparation,  as a future
candidate for high (perhaps president) government office. He will not be
able to achieve his lofty goal, if he fails to do away with the CCW law in
Utah as it exists. When he just wanted to be governor of Utah it was fine to
do and act as a freedom loving Utahan would act, but now he feels he must
meet the criteria of the big time government leaders. Perhaps no amount of
reason will sway him, but others will and have listened, so lets do as
Charles has suggested and pass the word.
Larry S. Larsen
http://larsenfamily.com/russian_stove/
[e-mail]

_=_____________________________!
 <|------==(______)--------              |____|
  |/////_____________45 ACP___|___|
   \       /|(    )/
   /      /) ___|
  /     o/
 /       /
/o___/


- -----Original Message-----
From: Charles Hardy <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, March 29, 1998 1:40 AM
Subject: Preaching to someone other than the choir



Thought y'all might be interested to know that I emailed a copy of the
WSJ article to several State Legislators and Governor Mikey
<[e-mail]> as well as several editors, etc at the Desnews
and Tribune.  I received the following response from one of the
legislators.  Identifiing info redacted.

If you haven't done so already, you should perhaps forward copies to
your State legislators, the governor, the papers, etc.  And keep a
copy handy to pass on to any newly elected legislators.

- ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----

Mr. Hardy,
Thank you for this well reasoned response to the latest tragedy in Arkansas.
To
my astonishment, our "conservative" republican governor in Utah used this
deviant behavior as a call to prohibit weapons on school grounds by
concealed
weapon permit holders.  HIs response was an emotional one, yours a practical
and
responsible one.  I would like to get a copy of "More Guns, Less Crime" when
it
is available.

- ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----

- --

Charles C. Hardy  | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>   | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)  | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

A camel is a horse designed by a committee and an elephant is a mouse
built to military specifications." -- from page 321 of "Cryptoanalysis
for Microcomputers" by Caxton C. Foster (University of Massachusetts),
Hayden Book Co. Inc., 1982.



- -




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 21:25:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: "Rifles and Magnums and Weapons" (Oh, my!)

Good point about the hypocrisy of gun-grabbers, though the
same arguments that apply in support of RKBA apply to any
chemical entity as well.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:14:24 -0600 (CST)
From: David Gonzalez <[e-mail]>
To: L&J <[e-mail]>
Cc: PIML <[e-mail]>, NOBAN <[e-mail]>

On NBC's "Meet the Press" this morning, Tim Russert hyped Bill Moyers'
upcoming special, "Close to Home", in which he chronicles the drug
addiction of his own son.  Russert then introduced Moyers, who agonized
over the recent tragedy in Jonesboro, Arkansas asking, rhetorically, "what
makes kids commit heinous crimes like this?".

Moyers had the answer, of course: guns, millions of guns, and the easy
availability of these guns---so that kids who once settled their petty
differences with slingshots or fists now grab a convenient gun whenever
they become angry.  Despite his upcoming hand-wringer about his own son's
drug addiction, Moyers--in his hypocritical determination to demonize
firearms--very conveniently ignored the statement by a Jonesboro girl
when asked about the 13-year-old (alleged) shooter's declaration that he
would "kill the people (girls) who had dumped him"---she said "I used to
date him, but I dumped him after he began using drugs!".

In the later "roundtable" discussion, Rep.. Zoe Lofgren, liberal Democrat
from California's 16th CD (San Jose), kept hammering away at the easy
availability of those evil firearms and urging even stronger federal gun
control--aided and abetted by Russert, who observed in a flummoxed manner,
"...and these kids had rifles and Magnums and weapons!"--while she gave an
impressive impersonation of Eleanor Clift by interspersing half-hearted
apologies for our sophomoric president's boorish sexual predations.

Finally, Bill Moyers talked about his special on addiction---he talked
about drugs "hijacking the brain" and how people (including his own son)
will risk family, home, job--*everything*, in fact--to get just one more
chemical fix.  How their personalities will become distorted and their
judgement will fly out the window---but that this does not relieve the
addict of the responsibility for his actions or for the management of his
addiction.

How ironic---when Mr. Moyers' son became a drug addict and destroyed his
own life, he could identify the problem: drugs, and his son's addictive
personality.  But when a troubled teen in Arkansas (who had once boasted
of his supposed membership in "The Bloods" street gang) begins using
drugs, then destroys the lives of others (along with his own and that of
his 11-year-old cousin), all that Mr. Moyers--in a classic case of
bilateral locution--can discern is the old bugaboo firearms---and how
easily available they are.  How ironic---and how utterly disingenuous.

David M. Gonzalez, Troglodyte
Wheeling, Illinois

Replies/Abuse: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 21:25:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: DNews political reporter says LDS Church supports gun ban legislation

Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:42:31 EST
From: FreeUtah <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

Seems like this one cries out for a response based on our earlier
discussion of what the LDS Church's statement meant.

Scooter!

**************

Sentiment to restrict concealed arms grows

Lawmakers won't act despite poll numbers

Last updated 03/28/1998, 12:01 a.m. MT
⌐ 1998 Deseret News
By Bob Bernick Jr.
Deseret News political editor
It's rare that 90 percent of Utahns want something and legislators
refuse to comply. Especially if it doesn't cost money. Especially if the
LDS Church wants it, too.
But for two general legislative sessions now, lawmakers have refused to
act on restricting where legally permitted concealed weapons may be
carried. That refusal is despite overwhelming polling numbers, a
statement by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on keeping
all guns out of churches and Gov. Mike Leavitt's request that lawmakers
address the matter.
Now a new Deseret News poll shows that support for restricting concealed
weapons has even climbed a bit more. (See chart.) While previous polls
place support for restricting concealed weapons in churches and schools
in the high 80 percent range, support has reached 90 percent or above,
pollster Dan Jones & Associates found.
But Bryan Lindsey isn't surprised that legislators haven't acted.
The laboratory technician, husband and father of three considers himself
an average Utahn. When he isn't working in a private lab conducting
forensic tests, Lindsey is a citizen lobbyist on guns-rights issues.
"The legislators whom I talk to understand that there just isn't a
problem" with "good, honest citizens" abusing their right to carry a
concealed weapon, Lindsey says.
About 15,000 Utahns have been licensed by the state to carry concealed
weapons. They go through a background check and some training before
receiving the permit, which under state law must be issued unless there
is a valid reason not to issue it.
Guns-rights advocates say the permits give law-abiding citizens the
right to carry their handguns anywhere they wish, except for the
specifically exempted locations of the courts, the Salt Lake
International Airport, jails and other law enforcement-secure areas.
"Criminals will not obey any law we may pass," Lindsey said. Only the
law-abiding, concealed-weapons owners will. And that gives criminals the
"power over good citizens."
But House Minority Leader Dave Jones says legislators won't act, not
because of reason but because conservative GOP leaders, backed by the
gun lobby, are determined to thwart the public will.
"Why do we ignore 90 percent of the people?" Jones, D-Salt Lake, asked.
"It's because a few (legislators) have got the power, they are ardent
gun-rights advocates and outside the mainstream of Utahns on this
issue."
Bill Nash, a University of Utah professor who is chairman of Utahns
Against Gun Violence, says there are three reasons lawmakers refuse to
act: "Some are reluctant to disagree with the National Rifle
Association; some believe House Speaker Mel Brown and former Speaker Rob
Bishop (who lobbies for the Utah Shooting Sports Council) when they say
there's no problem; and some are unwilling to take on a tough issue in
an election year."
Jones points a finger at Brown. But Brown says to point somewhere else.
Browns maintains he never killed one concealed-weapons bill in the 1998
or 1997 session.
He said recent polls, including the Deseret News poll, don't adequately
explain to those interviewed that the permittees are law-abiding
citizens, not criminals, and that they have background checks and
training to secure the permits.
"There's no problem" with permittees taking guns into schools, churches
and grocery stores, the speaker says. Brown says churches, like all
private property owners, have the right to keep all guns out, if they so
wish.
The sticky question, he adds, is what to do with public facilities -
schools, government offices, parks, universities and businesses open to
the public.
"Before you point fingers, you must have proof that you need a change,"
especially when you're talking about restricting what many believe is a
basic constitutional right - the right to bear arms, Brown says.
"I don't see that proof," he added.
And apparently neither did the sponsors of two bills - Senate President
Lane Beattie and Rep. Robert Killpack - in the 1998 session aimed at
detailing where concealed weapons may be carried, Brown said. Both men
killed their bills after they were introduced, before any public
hearing.
Nash says his group is pleased that Beattie killed his own bill. "It's
better for us not to have it (Beattie's bill). For it would have left
unprotected universities and private businesses."
Brown added that while Leavitt says he wants something done about where
concealed weapons may be carried, "he just points (a finger) also, and
he has never put forward any recommended proposal" to solve any of the
discussed problems.
Leavitt said this week he's disappointed that lawmakers haven't acted on
concealed weapons. But he adds he believes they will at some point.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:13:53 -0700
From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: news]

Received: from ns.phbtsus.com by toro.phbtsus.com with SMTP
    (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA24158; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:09:11 -0700
Return-Path: <[e-mail]>
Received: from ssiinc.com by ns.phbtsus.com with SMTP
    ($Revision: 1.37.109.9 $/16.2) id AA0576256375; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:53:59 -0700
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by wanderer.ssi (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07222; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:02:32 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:02:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "wanderer.ssiinc.com"
 via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdAAAa001kd; Mon Mar 30 10:02:27 1998
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Originator: [e-mail]
Sender: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk
From: Ed Kruzel <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: news
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas

>Gun company cleared in Brooklyn Bridge shooting

>NEW YORK (March 28, 1998 07:43 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) -- In the
>first of its kind to reach trial, a federal jury cleared a gun
>manufacturer of any liability in the slaying of a Hasidic student shot
>with one of its weapons on the Brooklyn Bridge.

For full details click
http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/nation/032898/nation30_18969_noframes.html




- -

------------------------------

End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #40
**********************************