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mobility-digest        Wednesday, May 30 2001        Volume 04 : Number 593



Re: (mobility) pablo
(mobility) Mody Activist?
Re: (mobility) steve v. pagan - round 2
Re: (mobility) Mody Activist?
(mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply
Re: (mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply
Re: (mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply
Re: (mobility) Mody Activist?
Re: (mobility) steve v. pagan - round 2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "mike e." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) pablo

Don't know where keiichi is but can you please tell me
where that quote came from, the one under yer name, ya
know, the "signature"....
- --- DJ Paul Simpson <[e-mail]> wrote:
> speaking of pablo, where is keiichi?!?? (he used to
> call me pablo ;)
>
>
> rhimez pir beatz,
> DJ PAUL
>
> =====
> "Computer games don't affect kids; if Pac-man had
> affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in
> darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening
> to repetitive electronic music."
> ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> DJ PAUL, host of Chester's Blanket Fort, 89.5
> FM/wpkn.org
>
> __________________________________________________
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> prices
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Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:42:44 -0400
From: Tim Ellorin <[e-mail]>
Subject: (mobility) Mody Activist?

Just a quick little thought.  As I am sitting here reading this little
Debate between Dj Pagan and Steve Giles which I find both points of view
interesting.  I am reminded how during the Presidential Elections Moby was
being Blasted for openly expressing his points of view on the whole Ralph
Nader thing.  I am not accusing anyone of anything, but he got a lot of
flack from pretty much everyone.  People on this list especially were
critical of his speaking his mind.  So why should he keep speaking his mind
when his own "Fans" are downing him for openly expressing his opinions.  The
same people who think "Wow it is so cool!" that Moby expresses his points of
view in essays and things, get mad when he says something that they don't
agree with.  It's a catch 22.  He now cannot do anything that he isn't
getting criticized for.  So maybe he is thinking that he should let people
focus on his music instead of them being sidetracked by his ideals.  I don't
know.  That is just my opinion.  Could be right, could be wrong.

Tim

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Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:52:04
From: "Steve Giles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) steve v. pagan - round 2

You know, I really look up to those futile gestures, too. Nobility in the
face of adversity is a great quality that should be admired. I suppose the
reason I don't mind Moby moving away from his activist leanings and towards
being a careerist musician is because it reminds me of myself. If I can't
forgive him, where would I be? I won't hold him to a higher standard than my
own.

I don't think that Moby has given up on his beliefs, just changed the way he
handles them. I'm not aware whether Moby's an active philanthropist, but
wouldn't it make sense for him to donate money to causes like PETA? Wouldn't
that make a bigger difference than asides in interviews or essays in liner
notes? I know that's hypothetical and impossible to determine, but my point
is that there are other ways to do it. Before, he was alienating people in
droves, which gave him that reputation. Now he's drawing them in. Perhaps
he's building an audience to increase exposure to his ideas, and intends to
limit them in liner notes. After all, there was always compromise, what with
his CDs being made from plastic and paper. All that's changed is the degree
of compromise. To say Moby's sold out now would require you to place
relative values on what he's done over his career. I'm guessing most people
who say he's sold out would have one that looked like this:

Plastic CDs and cases (factories and manufacturing and recycling issues)
OK

Paper liner notes, promo sheets, etc.(treecutting, poisonous inks, etc.)
OK

The occasional beer or his pair of leather shoes
OK

His studio (manufactured in Korea, made from plastic from polluting
factories, etc.)
OK

His music in ads
NOT OK

Expensive tickets for concerts*
NOT OK


Personally, I refuse to draw a line on iffy things. If he went out and
endorsed Ford, I'd be a bit bothered, but right now he's just selling them a
product, his music. (yes I know, I said product)

Let's look at the train of events that led to V2's marketing campaign. Moby
and Elektra split, and I'm not sure whether he quit them, they dropped him,
or it was mutual. What I do know is that Moby was very unhappy with his
support there, which was a lack of support, really. Weak or no advertising,
no signifigant radio push, and the only semi-successful release was a
radio-only single for James Bond, which was provided merely because it could
piggyback with the James Bond movie promotion. When V2 came around, Moby was
shopping for a record company that would support him marketing-wise, and
give him creative freedom. He's taken a lot of heat for his Animal Rights
about face from Elektra, they wanted another Everything Is Wrong. Somebody
named Sylvia or Rhonda at Elektra treated him like shit as I recall. When
Moby signed with V2, he was an underground, unknown artist. The best
contract before him from the different record companies was V2's, which
allowed him complete control of his music, and provided him with an unusual
untested form of viral stealth marketing. In the case that he got huge,
they'd be allowed to do all sorts of fancy stuff and so on. Moby has said
himself he never expected the popularity he's slowly achieved, so I don't
think he figured on quite all of this, although he was certainly aware of
the possibility. From the get-go, the only ideal that he gave in on was
advertising, which was the form of marketing support provided.

I'm not going to try and change your mind, because I respsect your opinion,
but maybe you'd be less disappointed in Moby if you thought that he wasn't
trying for all this hoohah, he just wanted freedom, and he got knocked over
the head by poularity and found himself in a position where unexpected
obligations to V2 now had to be fulfilled. Just an idea. I'm guessing my way
through how things happened, but it sound pretty close to me.

*if Moby wants to do a large scale tour, he needs a sponsor to cover
expenses to get it going. A sort of venture capital arrangement. He may not
be able to have a tour at all without those ticket prices. (a tour on that
scale, I mean, we already know he can do small ones cheaply)

I hope I provided some good stuff for you to play with. I discovered new
things just writing it.

Steve
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Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:07:49
From: "Steve Giles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Mody Activist?

From: Tim Ellorin <[e-mail]>

>>I am reminded how during the Presidential Elections Moby was
being Blasted for openly expressing his points of view on the whole Ralph
Nader thing.  I am not accusing anyone of anything, but he got a lot of
flack from pretty much everyone.  People on this list especially were
critical of his speaking his mind.  So why should he keep speaking his mind
when his own "Fans" are downing him for openly expressing his opinions.<<

I was certainly the loudest of us in my disagreement with Moby over the
Nader issue. I think you need to recognize the difference between
criticizing Moby, and criticizing his point of view.

Debate is healthy and should be encouraged. Slander is juvenile and
accomplishes nothing.

I find it interesting that I voted for Nader, who falls into the
noble/futile category, and Moby voted for Gore, who falls into the "let's do
the best with what we've got" category. A lot of my defense of Moby could be
equally applied to Gore voters who wanted to vote Green but didn't want to
"waste" their votes. We'll not get into political squabbles again, but it's
interesting I fell into the category that would say "It's not futile it just
takes time, effort, momentum, and information." Which, I think, is pretty
much what pagan is saying about Moby's past efforts, and the root of his
disappointed is Moby finally giving up. I understand, and that's why I can't
say pagan's wrong. He isn't. I just choose not to be bothered by Moby's
change because his ideas were never that important to me, as much as I
agreed with them.

I mean, how can I be disappointed in Moby for selling his song to a car
advert when he supported Gore, who comes across as environmentalist but
isn't, when you scour his record? How come Moby isn't helping build a 3rd
party where he'll be listened to instead of pandered to, as Gore does? A
place where campaign promises are fought to be kept, and where the politican
reports his progress instead of soundbyting? There's no communication
between the people and the power anymore, it's between the power and the
money, and so long as it stays that way, nothing Moby has dreamed of will
come to pass. This issue is too big for now, anyways. My point is that
Moby's ideals have always been compromised. To be disappointed in him is to
realize only the more obvious compromises.

I'm noisy today. Goddamn.

Steve
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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:20:03 +0200
From: "CDNOCAR1" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply

Steve wrote:
>It has to be the former. To say it's always been about the money would be
>to... only allow yourself to view Moby with either rose or bla bla blablabl

Common Steve, it seems you're just replying to make a sport out of
disagreeing with mr. Pagan.
Can't you even try to immagine how it's like to think differently?  I bet if
Moby were a street prostitute-killing asshole with a nasty drug habbit, you
would be able to justify it all with one e-mail to Mobility.

>What you call loss of standards I call growing up. More on this next...

Because killing prostitutes and doing a lot of drugs is all part of "growing
up", right?
(whooo, I love pulling things out of their context, heehee :)

>What you call noble I call futile.

What you call futile I call noble.

>I can see why you think he doesn't care anymore, because he doesn't show
it.
>That doesn't mean that he doesn't care anymore, necessarily.

Yeah right, if you start ignoring and stop talking your wife, it doesn't
*necessarily* mean you don't love her any more, does it?

Bart

just for old time's sake:

THE ORIGINAL GO  (31:41)  [Sep 1994]
UK CD, Mute, CDNOCAR1

 1  6:31  Go (Woodtick Mix)
 2  6:07  Go (Delirium Mix)
 3  6:04  Go (Arpathoski Mix)
 4  5:32  Go (Amphetamix)
 5  7:19  Go (In Dub Mix)

The piece of text under the NO-CAR sign says:
=============================================
A CAR ADVERT BROADCAST EARLIER THIS YEAR RECREATED THE MUSIC TO THE MOBY
SONG "GO". MANY PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS MOBY'S MUSIC. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT MOBY'S MUSIC WAS NOT USED. MOBY HAS
NOT BEEN AND IS NOT INVOLVED WITH THIS COMMERCIAL AND HAS NOT RECEIVED
MONEY FROM IT. HAD MOBY BEEN ASKED TO USE "GO" HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED ON
THE GROUNDS THAT HE WOULD NOT LET HIS SONGS BE USED TO SELL CARS. "GO" IS
AVAILABLE AGAIN TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. THIS SINGLE IS AVAILABLE AT
A LOWER PRICE THAN USUAL. ALL MOBY'S ROYALTIES FROM THE SINGLE WILL GO TO
THE CHARITY TRANSPORT 2000 TEL: [phone].



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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:01:48 -0700
From: "z | 2 | 4 | 2 |" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply

the -Amphetamix- is super cooooooooool!   :o)

gotta love it,
Z!~

>just for old time's sake:
>
>THE ORIGINAL GO  (31:41)  [Sep 1994]
>UK CD, Mute, CDNOCAR1
>
>  1  6:31  Go (Woodtick Mix)
>  2  6:07  Go (Delirium Mix)
>  3  6:04  Go (Arpathoski Mix)
>  4  5:32  Go (Amphetamix)
>  5  7:19  Go (In Dub Mix)
>
>The piece of text under the NO-CAR sign says:
>=============================================
>A CAR ADVERT BROADCAST EARLIER THIS YEAR RECREATED THE MUSIC TO THE MOBY
>SONG "GO". MANY PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS MOBY'S MUSIC. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
>WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT MOBY'S MUSIC WAS NOT USED. MOBY HAS
>NOT BEEN AND IS NOT INVOLVED WITH THIS COMMERCIAL AND HAS NOT RECEIVED
>MONEY FROM IT. HAD MOBY BEEN ASKED TO USE "GO" HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED ON
>THE GROUNDS THAT HE WOULD NOT LET HIS SONGS BE USED TO SELL CARS. "GO" IS
>AVAILABLE AGAIN TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. THIS SINGLE IS AVAILABLE AT
>A LOWER PRICE THAN USUAL. ALL MOBY'S ROYALTIES FROM THE SINGLE WILL GO TO
>THE CHARITY TRANSPORT 2000 TEL: [phone].
>
>

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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:36:50
From: "Steve Giles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Re: Big Time - a belated reply

From: "CDNOCAR1" <[e-mail]>

>>>Common Steve, it seems you're just replying to make a sport out of
disagreeing with mr. Pagan.
Can't you even try to immagine how it's like to think differently?  I bet if
Moby were a street prostitute-killing asshole with a nasty drug habbit, you
would be able to justify it all with one e-mail to Mobility. <<<

Hey Bart, how are you? You just illustrated my points exactly. Moby does
think differently now, obviously.

My point is that he isn't a whore-killer. He didn't just change sides from
the good guys top the bad guys. I think people oversimplify and fail to look
deeply when they say NOW he's sold out. His life has always been clashing
with his principles and it's only a matter of degree of how much.

>>Yeah right, if you start ignoring and stop talking your wife, it doesn't
*necessarily* mean you don't love her any more, does it?<<

No, it doesn't. Would you let the neighbors be the judge of the man and
wife? No, they aren't in the house and don't know what going on in there.
We're the neighbors.

I was using hypotheticals to make people try to figure out what's going on
in Moby's head, and to try to look at the issue in more than simple black
and white, good or bad.

Steve

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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: dj pagan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Mody Activist?

this is probably some of the best conversation on
the list.  i'm glad this is happening.

tim,

- --- Tim Ellorin <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I am not accusing anyone of anything, but he
> got a lot of flack from pretty much everyone.
> People on this list especially were critical of
> his speaking his mind.  So why should he keep
> speaking his mind when his own "Fans" are
> downing him for openly expressing his
> opinions.  The same people who think "Wow it is
> so cool!" that Moby expresses his points of
> view in essays and things, get mad when he says
> something that they don't agree with.  It's a
> catch 22.  He now cannot do anything that he
> isn't getting criticized for.

there are two actions being judged by myself when
moby states anything with ideals:
(1) the fact that he is stating something
(2) what he is saying

i applaud his use of (1) even if i don't agree
with (2).  that being said, i'm glad he is giving
a different point of view that could change the
world for the better, even though sometimes the
things he says i don't agree with.

moreover, why should he care if there are
dissenters to his ideals.  he has stated that his
music and ideals are separate.  if you don't like
the ideals, you'll probably like the music.  vice
versa.  he has nothing to lose and everything to
gain by being outspoken as long as he keeps this
distinction.  the two haven't conflicted too
badly until 'play'.

> So maybe he is thinking that he should let
> people focus on his music instead of them being
> sidetracked by his ideals.

he was able to do both in the past, which is part
of my fandom.  when the two conflict, or one is
put to the wayside, moby has changed in ways that
i find disturbing in the role model sense.

on to steve's reply...

again, this is good dialogue. keep it coming.

/djp

=====
djpagan
www.geocities.com/projectaristotle
"it is enough." - immanuel kant, his last words

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Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:14:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: dj pagan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) steve v. pagan - round 2

- --- Steve Giles <[e-mail]> wrote:
> You know, I really look up to those futile
> gestures, too. Nobility in the face of
> adversity is a great quality that should be
> admired. I suppose the reason I don't mind
> Moby moving away from his activist leanings
> and towards being a careerist musician is
> because it reminds me of myself. If I can't
> forgive him, where would I be? I won't hold him
> to a higher standard than my own.

there's always room for change, steve! ::smile::

> I don't think that Moby has given up on his
> beliefs, just changed the way he handles them.
> I'm not aware whether Moby's an active
> philanthropist, but wouldn't it make sense for
> him to donate money to causes like PETA?
> Wouldn't that make a bigger difference than
> asides in interviews or essays in liner notes?
> I know that's hypothetical and impossible to
> determine, but my point is that there are other
> ways to do it.

why can't he do both?  donate money and promote
groups like peta?  you sound as if he's trading
one for the other.  i don't buy it.

> Before, he was alienating people in droves,
> which gave him that reputation. Now he's
> drawing them in. Perhaps he's building an
> audience to increase exposure to his ideas, and
> intends to limit them in liner notes.

i don't think that's it at all.  ever since
everything is wrong, he's been increasing essays
in his linear notes.  i think this is great,
though most people don't even crack the cover of
the disc.  i don't think he's building an
audience to try and get his ideas out.  not with
everything he's stepping on to get there.

> After all, there was always compromise, what
> with his CDs being made from plastic and paper.
> All that's changed is the degree of compromise.
> To say Moby's sold out now would require you to
> place relative values on what he's done over
his
> career.

there comes a certain degree of compromise that i
can no longer agree with, though.  that kind of
compromise is where i have to draw the line and
start to question things.  i think moby is
rapidly approaching that level.

> I'm guessing most people who say he's sold out
> would have one that looked like this:

<snip list>

there is a difference to what you are laying out,
and what is necessary to do what he wants to do.
he said that his life is a contradiction, in that
he wants to be an activist, but he's a musician
that needs to use plastic, paper, etc... for
entertainment purposes.  anyone who takes on an
approach that goes contrary to popular belief has
to necessarily be a hypocrite

this was discussed on the ninjatune boards a
while back when i still lurked.  i want to be a
vegetarian.  this means that i will not eat
things from an animal nor use animal products
that involve the killing of an animal in some
way.  gelatin, leather, fat, etc... all out for
me.  however, there comes a time when i will have
to necessarily be a hypocrite.  for example, if a
police officer is to carry a gun, they need a
leather strap.  if i'm buying dinner for people,
they may order meat.  there is a certain amount
of compromise that i have to make that is
necessary to get along.

take moby and music.  in order to be a musician,
he has to necessarily waste paper and plastic and
sand to create cds for people to listen to.  he
also has to use gas to tour.  he has to allow the
venues to serve hot dogs.  he has to compromise
at some point and thus be viewed as a hypocrite.
if he started to endorse ford, i with you and say
that's crossing the line.  but if he's allowing
them to use his music, it is a form of support...
one he has control over.

<snip moby move to v2 monologue>

he did let go of that ideal, though.
advertisting is good.  the advertising for 'play'
is outrageous, overdone, and has caused him to
falter on many, many points in a short amount of
time.  he did need more exposure above the none
he was getting beforehand.  he did not need to be
made an mtv spectacle and a radio hero, though.

> I'm not going to try and change your mind,
> because I respsect your opinion, but maybe
> you'd be less disappointed in Moby if you
> thought that he wasn't trying for all this
> hoohah, he just wanted freedom, and he got
> knocked over the head by poularity and found
> himself in a position where unexpected
> obligations to V2 now had to be fulfilled. Just
> an idea. I'm guessing my way through how things
> happened, but it sound pretty close to me.

unexpected obligations?  oh, what i wouldn't give
to see the v2 contract.  that kind of mass
advertising had to give him some pause for
thought.  even a contract modification.  i hope
he's not locked into this kind of mass
marketing/media approach for the rest of his
years at v2.  it would be disappointing seeing
him plastered everywhere, your own personal jesus
to support with your contributions to the record
store.  halleluah!

> I hope I provided some good stuff for you to
> play with. I discovered new things just writing
> it.

it's some of the best dialogue on the listserv in
a long time.  i applaud this.

/djp

=====
djpagan
www.geocities.com/projectaristotle
"it is enough." - immanuel kant, his last words

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End of mobility-digest V4 #593
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