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mobility-digest       Tuesday, February 2 1999       Volume 01 : Number 318



Re: (mobility) Welcome to Chris from Chris
(mobility) I am, well not so new...the reply...
(mobility) survey
@@@@Re: (mobility) I am, well not so new...
Re: (mobility) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0500
@@@@Re: (mobility) I am, well not so new...
(mobility) (@@@Re: Chris Bourke's opinion on Britain and its colonies
Re: @@@@@(mobility) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0500
@@@@Re: (mobility) Let's get some reality here please...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:10:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Tim Beecher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Welcome to Chris from Chris

First of all, I'd like to thank both Chris'. Thank you
Mr.'new' Chris, but old to the topics over the passed year
for your introduction (would like to hear your views and
if you just so happened to discuss them with Moby, to make
this somewhat Moby related - and if they're similar to Mr.
Bourke's, though I strongly beg to differ!) - interesting
and Mr. Bourke for commenting on the more 'social' side of
things. I would definitely like to respond to your views on
the state of the world, but right now is not a good time -
so laters (and I'll add @@@@@ when I do, to show some
solidarity for those who are interested in this topic only).

Cheers people - something's happening on all fronts!

TMB

- ----------------------
Tim Beecher
Cranfield University
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:34:13 +0000
From: [e-mail] (Chris Stepanek)
Subject: (mobility) I am, well not so new...the reply...

ok...on to a few, well points...

1)I think: That civilization has gone down hill since the Greeks.

I agree with Chris...on many things actually.  What I mean by society has
gone down hill from the Greeks I am refering to major philisophical and
aesthetic advances.  True Greek society was very repressive, and primitive
and harsh but look at what the Greeks gave us.  Architecturally (everything
that followed was based on Greek refinements), Philisophically (refined
logical thinking and the first true philisophical thinking), and Socially
(civic planning on a grand scale, public spaces, education).  Society for
thousands of years has been refining and build off of Greek tradition.  Sure
we have made advancements in science and technology since then but what I am
really concerned with in this point is the essence behind what the Greeks
gave us.

2)>> I know: socialism, collectivism, utopianism, and/or communisim is wrong
>> (what every you want to call it, it is all the same), it steals all or man's
>> essential rights.

Again Chris I 100% agree with you.  Actually you said what I was going to
say, but far better than I.  Laisezz-faire capitalism is the only form of
economy/political system (even though it is not) that allows man to live in
true freedom.  See Christopher Michael Bourke's wonderful thoughts in
mobility #317 for further explaination.

3)>I vote: Straight Republican (I could never morally allow myself to vote
>Democrat) Why not Libertarian?  HA!

Please?!

4)>I think: Ayn Rand wrote alot of truth, and also alot of lies

Lies?  praytell which ones?

I agree with alot of what Ayn Rand wrote and thought.  I do however disagree
with her interpretation of Art and culture.

5)HA!  An architect who loves "Atlas Shrugged"!  I think you should take
more
stock in John Galt's speeches.  A fellow architect should know the beautiful
achievments man is capable of, right?


Yes I do think man is capable of beautiful achievments.  However I think
they are the exception and not the norm.


6)>Coolest Moby experience: meeting Moby on the Subway last summer and
having
>lunch with him, he really is an amazing person.

What did we talk about?  Philosophy, religion (blah) and a pair of shoes
Moby just bought.

- ----

Ok I have taken up enough space in this list with this stuff.  If you wanna
talk about this please e-mail me and we will talk there, and not fill this
list up with un related Moby stuff.

thanks
chris
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:39:44 +0000
From: [e-mail] (Chris Stepanek)
Subject: (mobility) survey

>1)  Do you like Moby?
Yup.  He never stops surprising me.  It is hard not to.
>2)  Which album is your favourite?
Move
>3)  Which single is your favourite?
the revolver one with the 11 minute revolver remix (the orange disc)
>4)  Which song is your favourite?
All that I need is to be loved (the one on the move disc is the best)
>5)  If you could be anyone, who would it be?
I am happy as myself
>6)  Which hairdoo looks best on Moby?
bald
>7)  When do you predict Moby will next tour?
summer into fall 99
>8)  What type of pet(s), if you have/had?
I am a cat person.  But I presently have no pets.
>9)  Where would you go if you could go anywhere in the world?
Back to the Arizona desert or back to the arctic circle.
>10)  What is your favourite colour of socks and why?
white...I am a geek.
>11)  What do you think will happen in the year 2000?
Y2K..not much.  The century...faster technological and social advancements
than we have ever seen.
>12)  Where do you think you will be in 10 years?
Still in NYC, once you are here it is hard to find a reason to leave.
>13)  What's your favourite colour of toothbrush?
green
>14)  What's your biggest pet peeve?
loud eating
>15)  Do you want to be buried or cremated?
cremated
>16)  What's your favourite type of cookie?
oatmeal

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:38:21 +0000
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: @@@@Re: (mobility) I am, well not so new...

Britain had a relatively positive impact
on their colonies.

Oh really!?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:45:15 -0700
From: Michaela Gerstner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (mobility) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0500

**sorry this is late.. my mail server is acting up again!!!!**

no way tim!  your birthday could not have been the 30th!  that's
mine!!!  this is weird.. never knew another person w/ the same b-day,
except my 3rd grade teacher.

anyways.. happy belated b-day!  sorry this is non-moby, but i had to
post this.

i never got the original e-mail for that survey!  hmm... maybe my mail
survey is deleting my messages.  i'll try to fill it out when i get the
time.. hopefully.  i'm not keeping any promises.

and ******_WELCOME_****** to all the new people!  i have your names
somewheres in my mail but i am in a hurry to get to class, so don't be
mad that i don't mention your names.  :)

anywayz... better send this before i'm late.
plov

Tim Beecher wrote:
>
> On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:00:49 -0700 4 Wilsons
> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Question-  If you are considered vegetarian because you don't eat meat,
> > then what is vegetarian footwear.. if you don't plan to eat it?
> >
> Good question and I've always wondered, but that's what
> some call them and I picked up the term - brainless sheep?
>
> Maybe...it's just easier?
>
> TMB
>
> P.S. Thanks for the gingerbread man recipe - I could have
> made some on Sat 30th Jan, for me b'day. Maybe next year!?
> >
> >
>
> ----------------------
> Tim Beecher
> Cranfield University
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:50:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Chris Bourke <[e-mail]>
Subject: @@@@Re: (mobility) I am, well not so new...

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> Britain had a relatively positive impact
> on their colonies.
>
> Oh really!?

Yes, really.

I originally intended to leave the message like that as a joke, but I
can't resist elaborating(something that you should have done).

Britain ended the legal descrimination of India's caste system that had
prevailed for thousands of years, creating one of the most stable third
world democracies(to this day!) who have a majority vote and still respect
individual liberties.

In Africa Britain ended centuries of tribal warfare in their colonies,
bringing about peace and relative order, giving structure again to
governments and society as a whole

Britain was the first European country to ban slavery, and not just in
Britain, they banned it in the entire empire, saving millions of lives and
staving off the slave trade.

In general, Britain was interested not in nationalistic conquest or
violent repressive expropriation, rather they were interested in expanding
markets and opening trade routes by forcing GOVERNMENTS(little more than
local and regional tyrants) to lower trade barriers.  In China for
example, Britain ended the tyrannical hold on the economy during the Opium
wars.  The contact and influence of latent enlightenment principles
Britain brought with them were the positive impact that they had on their
colonies.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:41:35 +0000
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: (mobility) (@@@Re: Chris Bourke's opinion on Britain and its colonies

Date:          Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:50:07 +0000
From:          Chris Bourke <[e-mail]>
To:            [e-mail]
Subject:       @@@@Re: (mobility) I am, well not so new...
Reply-to:      [e-mail]

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> Britain had a relatively positive impact
> on their colonies.
>
> Oh really!?

Yes, really.

I originally intended to leave the message like that as a joke, but I
can't resist elaborating(something that you should have done).

Britain ended the legal discrimination of India's caste system that had
prevailed for thousands of years, creating one of the most stable third
world democracies(to this day!) who have a majority vote and still respect
individual liberties.

In Africa Britain ended centuries of tribal warfare in their colonies,
bringing about peace and relative order, giving structure again to
governments and society as a whole

Britain interfered in cultures that they had no right getting
involved in destroying their heritage by force.

Britain was the first European country to ban slavery, and not just in
Britain, they banned it in the entire empire, saving millions of lives and
staving off the slave trade.

I believe it was one of the 1st countries to forcibly take African
people and put them in shackles killing thousands of them by the
inhumane shipping to America which after all was originally a group
of British colonies.  Also they forced the Indians from their
territorial homelands and made them live in encampments which could
not sustain them.  Despite the constitution America was founded on
racism and aggression largely by the British and I think a lot of
the problems that American society has has being present since those
days.  Having said that I am British and am deeply ashamed of some of
my country's evil past.  I think that other countries have overtaken
us in the 'evilness' chart as it were and Britain despite its own
problems is on the whole a good ethical society.(This is a
generalization I must stress.)  The best parts of the British
mentality and society in general I love but there are sinister
elements which I find very disturbing and upsetting.

In general, Britain was interested not in nationalistic conquest or
violent repressive expropriation,The contact and influence of latent
enlightenment principles Britain brought with them were the positive
impact that they had on their colonies.

I am afraid I just don't agree with this.

Ed

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:18:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Tim Beecher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: @@@@@(mobility) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:01:26 -0500

Sorry to others on mobility, I only have time to hit reply
to this, but it's even weirder that yet another person I've
encountered in the last week has said their birthday is the
same as mine - at least three others!

So happy belated birthday to you too!

Hope it was good!?

Bye for now,

Tim.

On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:45:15 -0700 Michaela Gerstner
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> **sorry this is late.. my mail server is acting up again!!!!**
>
> no way tim!  your birthday could not have been the 30th!  that's
> mine!!!  this is weird.. never knew another person w/ the same b-day,
> except my 3rd grade teacher.
>
> anyways.. happy belated b-day!  sorry this is non-moby, but i had to
> post this.
>
> i never got the original e-mail for that survey!  hmm... maybe my mail
> survey is deleting my messages.  i'll try to fill it out when i get the
> time.. hopefully.  i'm not keeping any promises.
>
> and ******_WELCOME_****** to all the new people!  i have your names
> somewheres in my mail but i am in a hurry to get to class, so don't be
> mad that i don't mention your names.  :)
>
> anywayz... better send this before i'm late.
> plov
>
> Tim Beecher wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:00:49 -0700 4 Wilsons
> > <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Question-  If you are considered vegetarian because you don't eat meat,
> > > then what is vegetarian footwear.. if you don't plan to eat it?
> > >
> > Good question and I've always wondered, but that's what
> > some call them and I picked up the term - brainless sheep?
> >
> > Maybe...it's just easier?
> >
> > TMB
> >
> > P.S. Thanks for the gingerbread man recipe - I could have
> > made some on Sat 30th Jan, for me b'day. Maybe next year!?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > Tim Beecher
> > Cranfield University
> > [e-mail]
>

- ----------------------
Tim Beecher
Cranfield University
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:27:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: Tim Beecher <[e-mail]>
Subject: @@@@Re: (mobility) Let's get some reality here please...

Oh come on both Chris', let's get some reality here.
Britain was primarily interested in advancing it's own
wealth at the expense of the people it conquered - thank
God colonialism has virtually died amongst the European
nations. It was pure exploitation, and competition for
power that accelerated the ravaging of other cultures and
their wealth to be ahead of their other European rivals.
The French and the British were constantly at it and look
how the Spanish before them decimated the peoples of
Central and South America. They had a very advanced
civilisation compared to many money grabbing, war mongering
Europeans.

I think it's pure arrogance to suggest that any nation
should be encouraged to force others to accept its way of
life, culture and religion. Some people in the West have a
serious superiority complex!

Tribal wars in Africa were far less damaging to the world
and humanity than those fought by present 'first world'
nations over the centuries, but none so appalling as this
century.

The U.S.A. was also built on colonialism to get where it is
today - the native peoples didn't get much say when it came
to living on their own land and what rights they had to
their own land. I don't think you'd be saying the same
things if the tables were turned.

Capitalism and globalisation today, thanks to the 'free
market' has pushed its new brand of colonialism and
imperialism on other nations inside and outside the West,
to satisfy the minority rich in the rich nations and fuck
up the 'have-nots' in the process - the majority of these
people are forced into poverty by the current system. The
Majority world (Third World) nations are held to ransom by
the IMF and World Bank by never-ending debt and usury
(usury, at one time being a sin according to old
Judaeo-Christian and Islamic beliefs).

Laissez-faire capitalism (sounds better than the present
form) but has led to ludicrous pacts between rich
governments allowing industry to have free reign, in
whatever countries industry chooses, i.e. the MAI pact
recently in Geneva. Industry will have no accountability -
so it can exploit workers, pollute the environment and just
continue to ravage about any decent thing left in society
and the world around us with no controls and governments of
poorer countries and even the rich ones won't be able to do
a damn thing about it unless this crazy notion is stopped.
So capitalism, laissez - frigging - faire or not, will
still exploit for capitalists' own ends; someone will
always suffer as a result.

I'm not sure you can refer to Indonesia as a socialist
nation - it is still hands-in-glove with the capitalists of
the West, which helps fund it's repression of the East
Timorese and it's own people. Even China is more of a
capitalist nation with the gloss of communist principles
over it - now that is repressive to the extreme - the worst
of both bad worlds.

As for the rainforests and indigenous peoples - I'm not
just referring to the Amazonian one. Their destruction is
fuelled by the insatiable desire of capitalist-driven
globalisation. Subsistence farmers wouldn't have to destroy
so much if they were in a state that provided controlled
and carefully managed agriculture and
conservation/ecological principles to benefit everybody and
everything. Let's also remember that the prime culprits of
rainforest destruction are the rich cattle ranchers, heavy
industry and dam builders funded by the World Bank, for the
rich countries own interest and usury.

There is enough food to feed everyone in the world right
now, but under the current economic regime (which is out of
control and is on the verge of self-destruction)- the haves
get more and the have-nots get even less. Where does it end?

Are you saying that all us comfortable, well-off types
(usually already born with a silver spoon in our mouths,
while others are trapped in poverty with no chance of ever
escaping, all because of past silver spoon, exploitative
bastards), should leave people starve to death? Do you
think they willingly let themselves starve to death and so
they deserve it? Should we exterminate all handicapped and
ill people because they are a drain on our military
expenditure because they deserve it? People must be fired
from there jobs and become homeless because they're human
and not running around like headless chickens for the sake
of the stock market to feed the fat bastards at the top.
Some of us have short memories.

By providing some help to those who are trapped, they can
help themselves which creates a society of freedom and
escape from never-ending poverty, misery and violence. I
honestly believe we are racing towards hell
(metaphorically) which is a reality for many and
something's going to give  - it can't go on. No
responsibility for our actions, no compassion for our
fellow human beings (hope to God someone will be
compassionate and understanding to us, when the shit hits
the fan), no control on global consumption, no
environmental management and fair spread of wealth across
the world is no progress, but simply self-destruction.

True equality is liberty against economic and social
oppression.

Okay, that's it for now - just haed to get it off my chest
- - I was bursting!

TMB.


On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:50:07 -0600 (CST) Chris Bourke
<[e-mail]> wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 [e-mail] wrote:
> > Britain had a relatively positive impact
> > on their colonies.
> >
> > Oh really!?
>
> Yes, really.
>
> I originally intended to leave the message like that as a joke, but I
> can't resist elaborating(something that you should have done).
>
> Britain ended the legal descrimination of India's caste system that had
> prevailed for thousands of years, creating one of the most stable third
> world democracies(to this day!) who have a majority vote and still respect
> individual liberties.
>
> In Africa Britain ended centuries of tribal warfare in their colonies,
> bringing about peace and relative order, giving structure again to
> governments and society as a whole
>
> Britain was the first European country to ban slavery, and not just in
> Britain, they banned it in the entire empire, saving millions of lives and
> staving off the slave trade.
>
> In general, Britain was interested not in nationalistic conquest or
> violent repressive expropriation, rather they were interested in expanding
> markets and opening trade routes by forcing GOVERNMENTS(little more than
> local and regional tyrants) to lower trade barriers.  In China for
> example, Britain ended the tyrannical hold on the economy during the Opium
> wars.  The contact and influence of latent enlightenment principles
> Britain brought with them were the positive impact that they had on their
> colonies.
>
>
>
>

- ----------------------
Tim Beecher
Cranfield University
[e-mail]

------------------------------

End of mobility-digest V1 #318
******************************

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