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hist_text-digest      Thursday, February 7 2002      Volume 01 : Number 949



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: WAS Beaver catch
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:40:05 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with
about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then  I will run
the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take
the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran
three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for
deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets
wrapped around the stakes. and drowns.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
[e-mail]

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:43:39 -0500
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike,
    First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs =
off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, =
because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who =
would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk is =
"the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of The =
United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that =
does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as =
the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was =
killed by the trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that animals caught =
in a trap fight the trap in different ways.  3 animals are chewers, =
skunk porcupines and raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by =
chewing their leg off they can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at =
the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, =
etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew =
the trap off of them.  In the process their caught foot goes numb and =
they can no longer feel it.  While chewing at the trap they will bite =
and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the trap jaws because =
they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot under the jaws, the =
critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT chew their foot anywhere =
above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and feeling. =
 The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't =
big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in the =
first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early =
in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance to do much =
damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  =
The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do =
to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that =
bit their foot!!!  Passing on these false rumors causes the general =
public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to =
outlaw trapping. =20
    Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did not address =
the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a history list, =
the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and =
mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten out of =
the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the water (and my =
conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in 10 =
feet of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next =
morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill =
immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually though). =20
Respectfully,
John Enos
TrapRJohn
[e-mail]=20
"It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,=20
It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!"

- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Mike Moore" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!


>     We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and
> they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is =
low,
> opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but =
always
> tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the =
morning,
> you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My =
dad
> always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to =
go deep.
> If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals will =
chew
> off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it.
>                                     mike.


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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4912.300" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Mike,<BR>    First, I don't know who =
told you=20
that some animals chew their legs off to get out of traps, but it is =
about time=20
for that rumor to die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights=20
extremist Waco's who would also have you believe that a breakfast of =
bacon, eggs=20
and milk is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane =
Society=20
of The United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research =
facility that=20
does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as =
the fawn=20
(still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was killed by =
the=20
trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that animals caught in a trap =
fight=20
the trap in different ways.  3 animals are chewers, skunk =
porcupines and=20
raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by chewing their leg =
off they=20
can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at the trap, and otters =
bite=20
everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight =
the trap=20
by biting the trap and trying to chew the trap off of them.  In the =
process=20
their caught foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it.  While =
chewing=20
at the trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is =
under the=20
trap jaws because they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot =
under the=20
jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT chew their =
foot=20
anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and =

feeling.  The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller =
trap that=20
isn't big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in =
the first=20
place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the =
morning=20
to remove critters before they have a chance to do much damage, or make =
a=20
drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any =
live=20
critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do to themselves in =
their normal=20
attempts to get away from the thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing =
on=20
these false rumors causes the general public to be disgusted at stories =
like=20
this and to join the move to outlaw trapping.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    Second, conibears are the best =
beaver trap=20
today.  I did not address the conibear trap in my earlier post =
because,=20
this being a history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky =
mountains=20
in the early and mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall =
that had=20
gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the =
water (and=20
my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in =
10 feet=20
of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next =
morning. =20
Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill immediately, nor do =
caught=20
beavers always sink (usually though).  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Respectfully,<BR>John Enos</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>TrapRJohn<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<BR>"It's God's=20
Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden, <BR>It's Our Responsibility To =
Arrange The=20
Meeting!!!"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>From: "Mike Moore" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT=20
size=3D4>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>To: <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"><FONT=20
size=3D4>[e-mail]</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 =
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the=20
Brain!</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D4>> =
    We=20
always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and<BR>> =
they=20
sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is =
low,<BR>>=20
opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but=20
always<BR>> tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was =
run in=20
the morning,<BR>> you never know how much struggle they put up before =
going=20
under. My dad<BR>> always said the natural instincts of a beaver when =
in=20
trouble was to go deep.<BR>> If so, that helps when you are trying to =
drown=20
them. <STRONG><EM>Some animals will chew<BR>> off their legs to get =
out of=20
the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it.<BR></EM></STRONG>>=20
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;          =20
mike.<BR></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:07:50 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote:
>Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with
>about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then  I will run
>the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take
>the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran
>three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for
>deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets
>wrapped around the stakes. and drowns.
>
>Traphand
>Rick Petzoldt
>[e-mail]
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:09:41 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

At 06:40 PM 2/7/2002 EST, you wrote:
>Here it my two cents on trapping beaver .I use #4 victor long spring with
>about a eight foot chain. I will place the trap near shore then  I will run
>the chain out into the water about five are six feet away from the trap. take
>the o ring run pole through it and drive it into the stream bottom. Next ran
>three are four stakes around the pole .As the beaver is caught he swims for
>deeper water and ends up going arond the stakes with the chain the chain gets
>wrapped around the stakes. and drowns.
>
>Traphand
>Rick Petzoldt
>[e-mail]

We've used this method as well, Rick, and it works good.  I like the
Brigders a little better because their a bit heavier and the jaw spread is
greater.  I use a little shorter chain, usually 5 to 6 feet.

Take care and good trappin!

Allen

Allen


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:23:10 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

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John,
    Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and mink with
only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs
were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did
wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able
separate itself from the trap.
    So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed", but I also have
seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the
animal
cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a time

I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to escape

(the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why
does
the trapping community like to blast any negative information? Trapping
has its
place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned)
would love
to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states and
communities
to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  trapping family.
My kids
know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is needed
for control.
Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice to
go to the mountains
and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the
ponds and streams
lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.


[e-mail] wrote:

> Mike,
>     First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs
> off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die,
> because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who
> would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk
> is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of
> The United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility
> that does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show
> such as the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's
> leg, was killed by the trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that
> animals caught in a trap fight the trap in different ways.  3 animals
> are chewers, skunk porcupines and raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot)
> reason that by chewing their leg off they can go free!!!  While K-9's
> tug and pull at the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path
> (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the
> trap and trying to chew the trap off of them.  In the process their
> caught foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it.  While chewing
> at the trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is
> under the trap jaws because they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much
> foot under the jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap.  They do
> NOT chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have
> blood circulation and feeling.  The fix for catching these chewers is
> to use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for them to get their
> snout under the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or smaller
> trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the morning to remove
> critters before they have a chance to do much damage, or make a
> drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any
> live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do to themselves
> in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that bit their
> foot!!!  Passing on these false rumors causes the general public to be
> disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to outlaw
> trapping.    Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did
> not address the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a
> history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in
> the early and mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that
> had gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered
> the water (and my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then
> twisted itself up in 10 feet of wire.  I found the beaver floating in
> the water the next morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not
> always kill immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually
> though).Respectfully,
> John EnosTrapRJohn
> [e-mail]
> "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,
> It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original
> Message -----From: "Mike Moore" <[e-mail]>To:
> <[e-mail]>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54
> PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >     We always used
> conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and
> > they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is
> low,
> > opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but
> always
> > tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in the
> morning,
> > you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My
> dad
> > always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was to
> go deep.
> > If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals
> will chew
> > off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do
> it.
> >                                     mike.

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
John,
<br>    Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and
mink with
<br>only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs
<br>were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did
<br>wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able
<br>separate itself from the trap.
<br>    So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed",
but I also have
<br>seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the
animal
<br>cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a
time
<br>I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to escape
<br>(the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why
does
<br>the trapping community like to blast any negative information? Trapping
has its
<br>place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned)
would love
<br>to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states
and communities
<br>to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  trapping
family. My kids
<br>know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is needed
for control.
<br>Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice
to go to the mountains
<br>and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the
ponds and streams
<br>lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.
<br>
<p>[e-mail] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font size=+1>Mike,</font>
<br><font size=+1>    First, I don't know who told you that
some animals chew their legs off to get out of traps, but it is about time
for that rumor to die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights
extremist Waco's who would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon,
eggs and milk is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane
Society of The United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research
facility that does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they
show such as the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on
it's leg, was killed by the trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is
that animals caught in a trap fight the trap in different ways.  3
animals are chewers, skunk porcupines and raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot)
reason that by chewing their leg off they can go free!!!  While K-9's
tug and pull at the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees
bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and
trying to chew the trap off of them.  In the process their caught
foot goes numb and they can no longer feel it.  While chewing at the
trap they will bite and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the
trap jaws because they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot
under the jaws, the critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT
chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws where they still have blood
circulation and feeling.  The fix for catching these chewers is to
use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for them to get their snout under
the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better),
check sets early in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance
to do much damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight
the trap.  The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage
they will do to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the
thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing on these false rumors causes
the general public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the
move to outlaw trapping.</font><font size=+1>    Second,
conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did not address the conibear
trap in my earlier post because, this being a history list, the conibear
trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and mid 1800's.
I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten out of the water somewhere
away from my set, then entered the water (and my conibear) from the land
side of the trap, then twisted itself up in 10 feet of wire.  I found
the beaver floating in the water the next morning.  Conibears, as
good as they are, do not always kill immediately, nor do caught beavers
always sink (usually though).</font><font size=+1>Respectfully,</font>
<br><font size=+1>John Enos</font><font size=+1>TrapRJohn</font>
<br><font size=+1><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a></font>
<br><font size=+1>"It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,</font>
<br><font size=+1>It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!"</font> <font size=+1>-----
Original Message -----</font><font size=+1>From: "Mike Moore" <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font><font size=+1>To:
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font><font size=+1>Sent:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PM</font><font size=+1>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:
Beaver on the Brain!</font> <font size=+1>>
We always used conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and</font>
<br><font size=+1>> they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets
and if water is low,</font>
<br><font size=+1>> opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg
hold traps, but always</font>
<br><font size=+1>> tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line
was run in the morning,</font>
<br><font size=+1>> you never know how much struggle they put up before
going under. My dad</font>
<br><font size=+1>> always said the natural instincts of a beaver when
in trouble was to go deep.</font>
<br><font size=+1>> If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them.
<b><i>Some animals will chew</i></b></font>
<br><b><i><font size=+1>> off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't
seen a beaver do it.</font></i></b>
<br><font size=+1>>
mike.</font></blockquote>
</html>

- --------------ABDAF81C0867FE52C0AAA965--


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 22:26:01 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS Beaver catch

kent---
we didnt do much fleshing---our hide buyer would pay the same prive
fleshed or not---and he prefered that we didnt do it---may have paid us
less but still close to market that week---we held hides sometimes hoping
to get the price to rise---had 45 days after the season closed to sell
the hides or else hold them until the next year and we didnt ever want or
do that.

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce   "Home of the "Old Grizz  (C) product line & "the
Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr
Palm Harbor,   Florida    34684             Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]   web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:19:15 -0500
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Mike,
    We were talking about beavers in the first post, so mink and muskrat =
change things a little.  These critters don't chew their legs off =
either!!!  However, I have seen mink chew the caught muskrat's leg off =
to be able to carry it away to a safe place for a meal.  As a trapper =
evolves, and reads and goes to seminars, he learns to adjust traps =
before the season for optimum performance, and make sets that do a =
minimum if any damage.  Properly by today's standards, you should drown =
a mink or muskrat, or if that isn't possible, use a 110 conibear to =
secure and kill the critter.  I have caught a couple of 3 legged mink =
with the damage well healed over and fur growing!!!  It's impossible to =
say how they lost their legs.  Besides improper sized and or improperly =
adjusted or rigged traps which can break a mink or muskrat's pencil thin =
leg bones, there are several predators and natural phenomena that could =
be responsible for the missing legs.  One of those 3 legged mink in =
particular had a particularly fine hide that brought $7.00 more than any =
other mink sold that day. =20
    The failure of animals to reason is not semantics, it is scientific =
fact.  They react to their environment, but people reason, animals =
don't.  There is an excellent article in the February 2002 issue of =
Fur-Fish-Game called Deer Physiology 101 on pages 43-45.  Though this =
article is about deer, the author does a fine job of explaining how and =
why animals react due to chemical changes in their bodies such as the =
production of adrenaline or epinephrine, but they don't reason, and the =
chemical changes are involuntary, meaning the animal has no conscious =
control of what is known as the "fight or flight" reaction. =20
    As I stated before, animals will fight the trap, it's not normal for =
them to be held by something to a small spot.  If the trap is rigged =
right with enough swivels and or shock springs, etc, and the right trap =
is used for the situation, injury is kept to a minimum, with the vast =
majority of catches experiencing no injury at all.  It's not that I am =
"blasting negative information", rather I am trying to correct a false =
impression/statement with the truth.  When I was a beginning trapper, I =
made some of the mistakes that caused wringouts and broken limbs, etc.  =
Then I learned correct methods and to use the right trap for the critter =
and situation.  The wringouts virtually stopped when I applied what I =
had learned.  Now I teach it as a Certified Trapper Education =
Instructor. =20
    Trapping does have a place in society.  It is the primary tool of =
furbearer management, like hunting is the primary tool of game =
management.  However, there are places in this country that have =
outlawed trapping.  It is a dangerous thing to say "trapping will =
continue regardless of public pressure".  The public can shut it down, =
and have in places.  Then when the need arises, the paid officials from =
Fish & Game Departments will do the trapping which will cost the =
taxpayer, and the "free trapper" will go the way of the buffalo.  Don't =
believe it???  Make a call to the Massachusetts Fish and Game Dept, or =
the New Jersey Fish and Game Department.  Ask their Chief biologist what =
impact severely restricted or stopped trapping is having in their =
states.  Maybe there is someone on this list who is from Mass or NJ who =
could shed some light.  The public, as I understand it, put a stop to =
cougar hunting in California.  Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing =
in their back yards.  Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the =
offending cougar, after the damage is done, because population control =
by hunting is against the law.  Public pressure did that. =20
    I was a lobbyist for the trappers association years ago (for 4 =
years)here in New Hampshire, and did a lot of research and documented =
everything I could.  I have testified many times at House and Senate =
hearings on all subjects to do with trapping and wildlife.  I am =
responsible for leading the effort that defeated anti-trapping bill's =
and supporting pro trapping bills that made it into law.  I was also =
considered an expert by the House Fish & Game committee, and as such, =
received many invitations to committee meetings to provide expert =
opinion and information when they were deliberating on a Bill.  I =
mention these credentials to show that I have done my homework.  =
Everything I have stated here, I have previously documented, as that is =
the only way to be credible in the eyes of Senators and Representatives. =
 Some of this documentation included the scientific studies mentioned in =
my last post.  That's how my stick floats. =20
Sincerely and Respectfully,
John Enos #1825
TrapRJohn
[e-mail]=20

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Mike Moore=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:23 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain!


  John,=20
      Having caught (and there for seen) muskrats and mink with=20
  only three legs I would have to disagree. The numbs of the legs=20
  were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that they did=20
  wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was able=20
  separate itself from the trap.=20
      So maybe I shouldn't of used the term "chewed", but I also have=20
  seen raccoon try to do the same thing. Weather you reason that the =
animal=20
  cannot know how to escape by doing this or not is semantics. Many a =
time=20
  I have caught small animals with their legs broken from trying to =
escape=20
  (the only thing holding them was the muscle and some time skin). Why =
does=20
  the trapping community like to blast any negative information? =
Trapping has its=20
  place in society. Some people (especially groups like you mentioned) =
would love=20
  to see it stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states =
and communities=20
  to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  trapping =
family. My kids=20
  know the difference between recreational trapping and when it is =
needed for control.=20
  Blasphene? In some circles. I know that here in Colorado it is nice to =
go to the mountains=20
  and see beavers replenished in the natural surroundings. Making the =
ponds and streams=20
  lie it was during and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion.=20
   =20
  [e-mail] wrote:=20

    Mike,=20
        First, I don't know who told you that some animals chew their =
legs off to get out of traps, but it is about time for that rumor to =
die, because it is a fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's =
who would also have you believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk =
is "the breakfast of cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of The =
United States)  Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that =
does testing on animals (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as =
the fawn (still with spots) and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was =
killed by the trap!!!  The truth behind the myth is that animals caught =
in a trap fight the trap in different ways.  3 animals are chewers, =
skunk porcupines and raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by =
chewing their leg off they can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at =
the trap, and otters bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, =
etc) the 3 chewers fight the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew =
the trap off of them.  In the process their caught foot goes numb and =
they can no longer feel it.  While chewing at the trap they will bite =
and chew the numb part of the foot that is under the trap jaws because =
they can't feel it!!!  If there isn't much foot under the jaws, the =
critter can pull out of the trap.  They do NOT chew their foot anywhere =
above the trap jaws where they still have blood circulation and feeling. =
 The fix for catching these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't =
big enough for them to get their snout under the jaw to chew in the =
first place (size 1.5 or smaller trap - #1 is better), check sets early =
in the morning to remove critters before they have a chance to do much =
damage, or make a drowning set so they die instead of fight the trap.  =
The longer any live critter is in a trap, the more damage they will do =
to themselves in their normal attempts to get away from the thing that =
bit their foot!!!  Passing on these false rumors causes the general =
public to be disgusted at stories like this and to join the move to =
outlaw trapping.    Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I =
did not address the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being =
a history list, the conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in =
the early and mid 1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had =
gotten out of the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the =
water (and my conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted =
itself up in 10 feet of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water =
the next morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill =
immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually =
though).Respectfully,=20
    John EnosTrapRJohn=20
    [e-mail]=20
    "It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin Laden,=20
    It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The Meeting!!!" ----- Original =
Message -----From: "Mike Moore" <[e-mail]>To: =
<[e-mail]>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 =
PMSubject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the Brain! >     We always used =
conibears on beaver. It takes the wind out them and=20
    > they sink like a rock. They work best on slide sets and if water =
is low,=20
    > opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg hold traps, but =
always=20
    > tag teamed them (used two at one set). Since the line was run in =
the morning,=20
    > you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. =
My dad=20
    > always said the natural instincts of a beaver when in trouble was =
to go deep.=20
    > If so, that helps when you are trying to drown them. Some animals =
will chew=20
    > off their legs to get out of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do =
it.=20
    >                                     mike.
- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C1B03E.9FD0B280
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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4913.1100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Mike,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    We were talking about beavers in =
the first=20
post, so mink and muskrat change things a little.  These critters =
don't=20
chew their legs off either!!!  However, I have seen mink chew the =
caught=20
muskrat's leg off to be able to carry it away to a safe place for a =

meal.  As a trapper evolves, and reads and goes to seminars, he =
learns to=20
adjust traps before the season for optimum performance, and make sets =
that do a=20
minimum if any damage.  Properly by today's standards, you =
should=20
drown a mink or muskrat, or if that isn't possible, use a 110 conibear =
to secure=20
and kill the critter.  I have caught a couple of 3 legged mink with =
the=20
damage well healed over and fur growing!!!  It's impossible to say =
how they=20
lost their legs.  Besides improper sized and or =
improperly=20
adjusted or rigged traps which can break a mink or =
muskrat's pencil=20
thin leg bones, there are several predators and natural phenomena that =
could be=20
responsible for the missing legs.  One of those 3 legged mink in =
particular=20
had a particularly fine hide that brought $7.00 more than any other mink =
sold=20
that day.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    The failure of animals to reason =
is not=20
semantics, it is scientific fact.  They react to their environment, =
but=20
people reason, animals don't.  There is an excellent article in the =

February 2002 issue of <STRONG><U>Fur-Fish-Game</U></STRONG> called=20
<EM><STRONG>Deer Physiology 101</STRONG></EM> on pages 43-45.  =
Though=20
this article is about deer, the author does a fine job of explaining how =
and why=20
animals react due to chemical changes in their bodies such as the =
production of=20
adrenaline or epinephrine, but they don't reason, and the chemical =
changes are=20
involuntary, meaning the animal has no conscious control of what is =
known as the=20
"fight or flight" reaction.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    As I stated before, animals will =
fight the=20
trap, it's not normal for them to be held by something to a small =
spot.  If=20
the trap is rigged right with enough swivels and or shock springs, etc, =
and the=20
right trap is used for the situation, injury is kept to a minimum, with =
the vast=20
majority of catches experiencing no injury at all.  It's not that I =
am=20
"blasting negative information", rather I am trying to correct =
a false=20
impression/statement with the truth.  When I was =
a beginning=20
trapper, I made some of the mistakes that caused wringouts and broken =
limbs,=20
etc.  Then I learned correct methods and to use the right trap for =
the=20
critter and situation.  The wringouts virtually stopped when I =
applied what=20
I had learned.  Now I teach it as a Certified Trapper Education=20
Instructor.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    Trapping does have a place in=20
society.  It is the primary tool of furbearer management, like =
hunting=20
is the primary tool of game management.  However, there are places =
in this=20
country that have outlawed trapping.  It is a dangerous thing to =
say=20
"trapping will continue regardless of public pressure".  The public =
can=20
shut it down, and have in places.  Then when the need arises, the =
paid=20
officials from Fish & Game Departments will do the trapping which =
will cost=20
the taxpayer, and the "free trapper" will go the way of the =
buffalo.  Don't=20
believe it???  Make a call to the Massachusetts Fish and Game Dept, =
or the=20
New Jersey Fish and Game Department.  Ask their Chief =
biologist what=20
impact severely restricted or stopped trapping is having in their =
states. =20
Maybe there is someone on this list who is from Mass or NJ who could =
shed some=20
light.  The public, as I understand it, put a stop to cougar =
hunting in=20
California.  Now cougars eat joggers and kids playing in their back =

yards.  Fish and Game officials have to hunt down the =
offending=20
cougar, after the damage is done, because population control by hunting =
is=20
against the law.  Public pressure did that.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>    I was a lobbyist for the trappers =

association years ago (for 4 years)here in New Hampshire, and did a lot =
of=20
research and documented everything I could.  I have testified many =
times at=20
House and Senate hearings on all subjects to do with trapping and=20
wildlife.  I am responsible for leading the effort that defeated=20
anti-trapping bill's and supporting pro trapping bills that made it into =

law.  I was also considered an expert by the House Fish & Game=20
committee, and as such, received many invitations to committee meetings =
to=20
provide expert opinion and information when they were deliberating on a=20
Bill.  I mention these credentials to show that I have done my =

homework.  Everything I have stated here, I have previously =
documented, as=20
that is the only way to be credible in the eyes of Senators and=20
Representatives.  Some of this documentation included the =
scientific=20
studies mentioned in my last post.  That's how my stick =
floats. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sincerely and Respectfully,<BR>John Enos =
#1825</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>TrapRJohn<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> =
<BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Mike=20
  Moore</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 07, =
2002 10:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Beaver =
on the=20
  Brain!</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>John, <BR>    Having caught (and there =
for seen)=20
  muskrats and mink with <BR>only three legs I would have to disagree. =
The numbs=20
  of the legs <BR>were bare down to the bone. My thoughts on it was that =
they=20
  did <BR>wiggle, turn, fight and wear down the caught leg till it was =
able=20
  <BR>separate itself from the trap. <BR>    So maybe I =
shouldn't=20
  of used the term "chewed", but I also have <BR>seen raccoon try to do =
the same=20
  thing. Weather you reason that the animal <BR>cannot know how to =
escape by=20
  doing this or not is semantics. Many a time <BR>I have caught small =
animals=20
  with their legs broken from trying to escape <BR>(the only thing =
holding them=20
  was the muscle and some time skin). Why does <BR>the trapping =
community like=20
  to blast any negative information? Trapping has its <BR>place in =
society. Some=20
  people (especially groups like you mentioned) would love <BR>to see it =

  stopped. But no matter how much pressure is put on states and =
communities=20
  <BR>to stop it, trapping will continue. I was raised in a  =
trapping=20
  family. My kids <BR>know the difference between recreational trapping =
and when=20
  it is needed for control. <BR>Blasphene? In some circles. I know that =
here in=20
  Colorado it is nice to go to the mountains <BR>and see beavers =
replenished in=20
  the natural surroundings. Making the ponds and streams <BR>lie it was =
during=20
  and before the fur trade. Just one man's opinion. <BR> =20
  <P>[e-mail] wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">
    <STYLE></STYLE>
    <FONT size=3D+1>Mike,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>    =
First, I=20
    don't know who told you that some animals chew their legs off to get =
out of=20
    traps, but it is about time for that rumor to die, because it is a=20
    fabrication of the animal rights extremist Waco's who would also =
have you=20
    believe that a breakfast of bacon, eggs and milk is "the breakfast =
of=20
    cruelty"!!!  (Quote from The Humane Society of The United =
States) =20
    Or that it is ok to blow up a research facility that does testing on =
animals=20
    (PETA), or that the pictures they show such as the fawn (still with =
spots)=20
    and a #4 double longspring on it's leg, was killed by the =
trap!!!  The=20
    truth behind the myth is that animals caught in a trap fight the =
trap in=20
    different ways.  3 animals are chewers, skunk porcupines and=20
    raccoons.  They do NOT (cannot) reason that by chewing their =
leg off=20
    they can go free!!!  While K-9's tug and pull at the trap, and =
otters=20
    bite everything in it's path (trees bushes, sticks, etc) the 3 =
chewers fight=20
    the trap by biting the trap and trying to chew the trap off of =
them. =20
    In the process their caught foot goes numb and they can no longer =
feel=20
    it.  While chewing at the trap they will bite and chew the numb =
part of=20
    the foot that is under the trap jaws because they can't feel =
it!!!  If=20
    there isn't much foot under the jaws, the critter can pull out of =
the=20
    trap.  They do NOT chew their foot anywhere above the trap jaws =
where=20
    they still have blood circulation and feeling.  The fix for =
catching=20
    these chewers is to use a smaller trap that isn't big enough for =
them to get=20
    their snout under the jaw to chew in the first place (size 1.5 or =
smaller=20
    trap - #1 is better), check sets early in the morning to remove =
critters=20
    before they have a chance to do much damage, or make a drowning set =
so they=20
    die instead of fight the trap.  The longer any live critter is =
in a=20
    trap, the more damage they will do to themselves in their normal =
attempts to=20
    get away from the thing that bit their foot!!!  Passing on =
these false=20
    rumors causes the general public to be disgusted at stories like =
this and to=20
    join the move to outlaw trapping.</FONT><FONT =
size=3D+1>   =20
    Second, conibears are the best beaver trap today.  I did not =
address=20
    the conibear trap in my earlier post because, this being a history =
list, the=20
    conibear trap didn't exist in the rocky mountains in the early and =
mid=20
    1800's.  I caught a 42# beaver this past fall that had gotten =
out of=20
    the water somewhere away from my set, then entered the water (and my =

    conibear) from the land side of the trap, then twisted itself up in =
10 feet=20
    of wire.  I found the beaver floating in the water the next=20
    morning.  Conibears, as good as they are, do not always kill=20
    immediately, nor do caught beavers always sink (usually =
though).</FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>Respectfully,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>John =
Enos</FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>TrapRJohn</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></FONT>=20
    <BR><FONT size=3D+1>"It's God's Responsibility to Forgive Bin =
Laden,</FONT>=20
    <BR><FONT size=3D+1>It's Our Responsibility To Arrange The=20
    Meeting!!!"</FONT> <FONT size=3D+1>----- Original Message=20
    -----</FONT><FONT size=3D+1>From: "Mike Moore" <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT=
><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>To: <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>></FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 5:54 PM</FONT><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver on the =
Brain!</FONT> <FONT=20
    size=3D+1>>     We always used conibears on =
beaver. It=20
    takes the wind out them and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>> they =
sink like a=20
    rock. They work best on slide sets and if water is low,</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
    size=3D+1>> opennings to the den. We have caught beaver on leg =
hold traps,=20
    but always</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>> tag teamed them (used two =
at one=20
    set). Since the line was run in the morning,</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D+1>>=20
    you never know how much struggle they put up before going under. My=20
    dad</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D+1>> always said the natural =
instincts of a=20
    beaver when in trouble was to go deep.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D+1>> If so,=20
    that helps when you are trying to drown them. <B><I>Some animals =
will=20
    chew</I></B></FONT> <BR><B><I><FONT size=3D+1>> off their legs to =
get out=20
    of the trap, but hadn't seen a beaver do it.</FONT></I></B> =
<BR><FONT=20
    =
size=3D+1>>          =
;            =
            &=
nbsp; =20
    mike.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C1B03E.9FD0B280--


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