<DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Now I've got to cross wires with both of you great men: Ned Eddins and </FONT></PRE></DIV>
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<DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J.W. Stephens. In that </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">Ned has got it right for the most part. And J.W.'s </FONT></PRE></DIV>
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<DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reference is correct. </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The overall problem however is the ethnocentricism </FONT></PRE></DIV>
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<DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">of the author; a </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">white man. Frequently other cultures have throughout history </FONT></PRE></DIV>
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<DIV align=left><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">defended </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">their own way of living, while disrespecting the new and veiwed</FONT></PRE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>When alien peoples meet, the saying goes, first they fight and then
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>they
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>fornicate. The trappers and Indians did both, as mood and circumstance
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might dictate. The opportunity for some great sex was probably one of
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>the primary lures of the mountains for the whites, and the squaws seem
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to have relished it with the trapper, in or out of marriage, avidly
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>enough to fulfill his wildest fantasies.
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>The status of women in Indian tribes was low. The were property and
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>treated as such. They were saddled with all the domestic work, because
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>a brave's honor would not allow him to touch it. They were made beasts of
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>burden and traded like horses. Like many "primitive" peoples, Indians
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>made women the objects of distrust, hostility, and taboos. Their lives
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were so miserable that some Sioux women, for instance, would kill
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>newborn girl children as an act of mercy; or they hanged themselves to
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>escape the degradation of femininity. So the women certainly could
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>expect no worse from the white man than they could get at home.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As the plain's tribes generaly were matriarchal when they had lived in the east. Only when </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">they encountered the horse did they shift to a patriarchal structure. Where back east the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">'calf pipe' story was interpreted to mean since a woman gave and taught the pipe it should </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">be women in command. Upon the shift from an agricultural economy to a zoological economy</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">with the horse as it's main instrument, the myth was reinterpreted. Since men now supplied </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the bulk of the resources, and two men were the gender visited by the calf pipe woman, the </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">myth made a 180 circle. The males then ruled, yet partial matriarchy still had a strong hold. </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">The camp was a woman's, while the men had the earth; and neither could prevail without the</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> other. </FONT>
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<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Compared to white attitudes toward sex, Indians were utterly
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>uninhibited. They suffered from no embarrassment, shame, or secretiveness about it.
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>With rare exceptions, they had no concept of chastity, in the sense of
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>abstinence before marriage. Teenage girls and boys alike were expected
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to take their pleasure where they could find it. (Adultery was a
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>somewhat different matter.) Adults coupled freely in front of children
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>or anyone else. One prominent chief was often seen walking about his
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>village naked, displaying an erection.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">The Crow were notorius for being the most adulterous of the plains and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mountain nations. But most of the plains tribe's husbands would and could cut a woman's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">throat or nose for adultery. Little girls wore rawhide girdles and heard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">stories about tipi creepers(old degenerate men) whom would sneak in to </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">copulate with the young girls. And as Ned said, the Sun Dance pole could </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">only be cut by a virgin. Thus most of the adulterous affairs and pre-marital</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">unions were most likely with the Crow women or those with a low village </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">reputation. </FONT></PRE><PRE> Public ceremonies in which men
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>and women copulated with anyone other than their own husbands or wives
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>were common among the plains tribes. And the American Indian was
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>completely innocent of the notion that something he enjoyed sexually
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>might be "wrong." "Wrong" would have been an incomprehensible concept
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>to
<DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>them in that context.</PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">J. W., I have to disagree as many authors of Blackfeet culture and Sioux, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">talk of </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a man caught in adultery and his punishment. The double standard </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">evidently existed in plains culture just like in our society's past, </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">as the man's punishment was less severe. A husband could demand </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">everything the man owned even his clothes he was wearing. If he</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"> protested he could be killed by the angry husband and it seen as noboby's </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">business. Contrasted </FONT><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">to the wife, whom lost her life or nose.
</FONT></PRE><PRE>They were just as uninhibited in other matters where white culture
invokes strong taboos. Homosexuals, called berdashes, populated every
tribe and drew no censure; they were thought to be following visions
given them in childhood; many were even warriors. Sex with an animal
was perfectly permissible, too. So was sex with a recently killed
enemy, usually as a final humiliation. <N.B. B'st'rd: Other readings have
this, and the coupling with other than spouses, purposed to tap the
"medicine" of the other party.>
<FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">As I understand, the berdash, were for the most part a cast among </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">the Osage. Of males whom did not have the genetic qualities to pass </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">into the population. Rather than practice infanticide they allowed </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">a class of craftsmen whom were not allowed to marry nor breed. Yet as </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">you have pointed out, homosexual males were seen as possessing spirit </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">qualities. Probably, since they were in touch with both the male and </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">female traits of their being. And the sodomy you mentioned, most likely</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">happened with prisoners and the dead. In "Hantha Yo"(not sure of spelling) the author </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">mentions this form of torture. Why else at the Big Horn did so many </FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive">officers shoot each other when they knew their fate if captured</FONT>?</PRE>
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:57:14 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
B'st'rd
Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it. Another
one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their
wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My
objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade
period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted
and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever
the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians.
In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste
married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where
did these virgins and chaste women come from???? There is no doubt that all
tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our
standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you
have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different
tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some
the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline.
There are two references that I would really appreciate:
(1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a
medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra.
(2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring
horses and moving onto the Plains.
Ned
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:14:39 -0800
From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
Ned Eddins wrote:
>
> B'st'rd
> Some of your reply didn't come through, so I couldn't follow it.
I think that it may have been "SUE RAVEN"'s reply that didn't come
through. I had the same problem reading it because it was stylized text
(multi-part MIME). My postings are always in plain text.
> Another
> one to your L&C example (especially York) is young warriors giving their
> wives to old men of the tribe hoping to share in their success in battle. My
> objection to some books written by people involved in the early Fur Trade
> period is that you get the impression that all Indian men and women acted
> and behaved the same...the worst stories involve the Arikara, but whatever
> the story, it cannot be applied to all Indians.
Agreed. I pointed this out as a problem with the snippet that I quoted
from Blevins.
> In terms of high sexual standards, it hard to beat virgins and chaste
> married women. If the Crow and other tribes were as bad as some say, where
> did these virgins and chaste women come from????
"Bad" women all start out as virgins and chaste. The problems come when
they are chased and are not fast enough.
> There is no doubt that all
> tribes did things with each other and animals (Larocque) that by our
> standard were repulsive. In order to get an overall picture on this, you
> have to read what ethnologists that spent years living with the different
> tribes in the early 1900's wrote. I will be glad to give reference to some
> the best of these books on the different Plains Indians offline.
I would like that, even though they don't reflect the period of my
interest.
> There are two references that I would really appreciate:
> (1)The one on the chief walking around the village...this could be a
> medical break through---the first documented evidence of Viagra.
That was Blevins: "Give your Heart to Hawks."
> (2) that the matriarchal tribes changed to patriotically after acquiring
> horses and moving onto the Plains.
That was "SUE RAVEN" not me.
B'st'rd
BTW, I really enjoyed your sheep pictures, Ned.
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:15:16 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Sue;
please change your e-mail settings to "plain text", so we hairless apes =
can read it easier. =20
thanks; Tom
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To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:02 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty
