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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:07:50 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans
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(Saucy) B'st'rd said:
> My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but
> when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work
> worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow
> falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies
> as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder.
>
> I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody?
>
> B'st'rd
Sounds to me ya needed to spend a little more time with the toboggan and
figure out how to use it.
First off ya shouldn't be postholing any where. That's what Snow Shoes are
for.
To go side hill ya need to make a trail by stomping a flat trail ahead of ya,
up and back making the trail double snow shoe wide. Then pull your toboggan
on it with no trouble. Ya do the same if you want to go up hill on an angle.
I find when going up hill pulling a toboggan on snow shoes it helps to use a
walking stick to plant so you do not slid back. When going down hill it helps
to have help so you can use a drag line on the back. You can also let the
toboggan slide up on the tells of your shoes and shuffle down the hill works
well.
Buck I will have to disagree with ya if a toboggan is made and loaded right
it can haul as much as a horse. With two men handling it Yaro hauled out an
elk hole on his once. I have hauled a hundred or more pounds on mine and
that's more then I want to pack on my back any distance.
As for reading about these being used read Forty Years a Fur Trader on the
Upper Missouri Larpenteur talks a bout using slides to haul goods on.
I think it was Sublette, correct me if I'm wrong that came in to a camp of
trappers that were strandes in the Snake River country in the dead of winter
with supplies brought in on a sled pulled by dogs. The Bush Toboggan and snow
shoes. were used by Indians tribes back east around the Great Lakes to Canada
and even used by some of the western tribes. To hall loads in the snow long
before the trappers came.
That's the way my toboggan pulls.
Crazy Cyot
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<BR></B>(Saucy) B'st'rd said:<B>
<BR></B>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but
<BR>when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work
<BR>worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow
<BR>falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies
<BR>as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder.
<BR>
<BR>I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody?
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Sounds to me ya needed to spend a little more time with the toboggan and figure out how to use it.
<BR>First off ya shouldn't be postholing any where. That's what Snow Shoes are for.
<BR>To go side hill ya need to make a trail by stomping a flat trail ahead of ya, up and back making the trail double snow shoe wide. Then pull your toboggan on it with no trouble. Ya do the same if you want to go up hill on an angle. I find when going up hill pulling a toboggan on snow shoes it helps to use a walking stick to plant so you do not slid back. When going down hill it helps to have help so you can use a drag line on the back. You can also let the toboggan slide up on the tells of your shoes and shuffle down the hill works well.
<BR>Buck I will have to disagree with ya if a toboggan is made and loaded right it can haul as much as a horse. With two men handling it Yaro hauled out an elk hole on his once. I have hauled a hundred or more pounds on mine and that's more then I want to pack on my back any distance.
<BR>As for reading about these being used read Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri Larpenteur talks a bout using slides to haul goods on.
<BR>I think it was Sublette, correct me if I'm wrong that came in to a camp of trappers that were strandes in the Snake River country in the dead of winter with supplies brought in on a sled pulled by dogs. The Bush Toboggan and snow shoes. were used by Indians tribes back east around the Great Lakes to Canada and even used by some of the western tribes. To hall loads in the snow long before the trappers came.
<BR>That's the way my toboggan pulls.
<BR>Crazy Cyot </FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:38:48 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans
Sounds like the basics of making it out of what you have. I watched a
program one time showing a couple Eskimo hunters making a sled mid winter.
I'm not sure what they started out with for a frame, though it could have
been something as simple as tightly rolled hides (two for each runner) that
were turned up at the ends as would be expected. Might have been one hide
rolled along two opposing edges and turned up with the rolled edges on the
bottom. They then covered the bottoms of each runner with spit wetted moss
etc. to build up a tough slick edge to run on the ice and snow. I thought it
a pretty neat trick at the time. It hardly gets cold enough around here to
do the same but a fresh killed elk hide in well below freezing weather could
be quickly turned into a "sled" in this manner.
I also understand that in the east in the previous century a "sled" was made
of a flat piece of wood of modest length and width that was hollowed out a
bit and curved on the bottom to serve as a shallow but serviceable sled. It
might or might not dig into the snow so much as to be not worth the trouble
but then again it might have worked just fine if loaded and managed
properly.
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans
> The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made from
> straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat
> surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles
together.
> A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in a
> "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the
> cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking only
> what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely.
>
> But like you have stated we have one brother that if not watched will try
> and load the kitchen sink every.
>
> Buck.
> --------------------
>
> > Buck,
> >
> > The toboggans I was referring to were as long or close to what your
> talking,
> > but not as wide and were being handled by one guy. Too much room to pile
> > stuff on that you probably could live without. At least that was the
> result.
> > I'm sure that two or three guys could handle a 6 footer by 2 just fine.
> > Magpie and most of us are talking about a personal snow craft.
> >
> > I'm not familiar with the one your talking about but it sounds some what
> > different than the usual steamed slat models that we normally come
across
> > for sale or trade (the classic "kids down the slope kind).
<BR>The first toboggan I made was with that kind of thought. Made it out of what was at hand, I tied a frame together out of willows. The frame was about six feet long and two feet wide that was my mistake it was to wide. I covered the frame with two elk hides next mistake I left the hair on even with the hair laying in the right direction it made it harder to pull. The only thing it was good for was to set on once ya got it in to camp. It sure wasn't any good to haul stuff on.
<BR>A toboggan has to be narrower the trail your snow shoes make as a rule no more then 15" wide 12'' to 14" is better.
<BR>Bob Stromger had one he made at one of the winter camps last year made with the same thought in mind. But he made is right it was 15" wide and 4' long covered with raw hide with the hair off and it worked real well.
<BR>See ya in the snow
<BR>Crazy Cyot
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 06:45:13 -0700
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ethnocentric bias and tribal sexualty
JW Stephens wrote:
> Um, I think that you should substitute "Usually" for "Frequently" above.
>
> You should remember that context of "Give your Heart to the Hawks" was
> RMFT. Blevins is speaking of a snapshot of the western plains and
> mountain tribes 1820s-40s.
>
I agree, too often we lump all the tribes (and companys of white men) into easily
made pigeon holes which give a slanted view of the individuals and don't allow for
differences even between tirbes, time frames and location. I had a discussion with
Rex Norman about this when his book first came out. Good book, but I told him
that people will now (with out thinking) that all the men who came out west did look
like the one company of men who he wrote and drew about in 1837. When every one
and every company looked different, were supplied different and had different agends.
Some came west to trade, some to trap beaver and some to go only to rendezvous and
back.
The various tribes in the west were no different. On the subject of women (and the
current topic of looseness), how they acted was different in the different tribes. Blevins'
book (which I enjoy to read, but not use too much as reference) gives some pretty wide
assumptions and labels them on a wide group.not all tribes were "free and easy" with
their wives. Some were very protective of them.
And as you go through the fur trade time frame, ideas and events changed how the
tribes and people interacted. The whites were more well known, weren't given the special
treat ment like L & C men were. History is easily made to fit into what we want it to be,
but in real life is a complicated group of events which take time and effort to really understand.
I used to say that generalities were the way to go, but now I feel it is alot better to say that
at a certain time, in a cetain place certain thigns happened. Which may or may not be
the norm. Lets see if I can find some othere ways to show this.
January 8th Monday
Last night there was a great fandango or dance among the Spaniards- they kept it up till nearly day
light from the noise, the women here are very unchaste, all vulgar in their conversations and
manners- they think it an honor to ask a white man to sleep with them, one came to my lodgings last
night and asked to make here a ôblanco pickaniniaö, which being interpreted, is to get here a white
child- and I must say for the first time I was ashamed, and did not gratify her, or comply with her
request seeing her so forward I had no propensity to touch her- things about the mission much the
same. No news of Mr. S. and I am very impatient, waiting his arrival.
Jedediah Smith,
p. 236.
Here is a journal entry that shows a white men actually turning down sex with a woman. How
unusual to us in the fur trade! Didn't all white men drop their pants at the chance?
February 3rd,
àI almost forgot to mention, that this month, for the first time, I have commenced a new article of
trade, which is rabbit skins, I am in hopes they will be worth something
below. F. A. Chardon, p. 97.
Another piece of history that we forget about- trading of small fur at the forts. Wasn't beaver the
only fur taken??
April 8th
At the town of Independence Missouri on the 4th of April 1834, I joined an expedition fitted out for
the Rocky Mountains and Mouth of the Columbia River, by a company formed in Boston under the name of
the Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company.
Osborne Russell, p. 1.
Here Russell starts out with a company of men. The group is a unfamiliar one that many of never
heard of.
April 26th
We started in a mackinaw boat, which had been made at the fort at the foot of the mountains. This
boat was thirty six feet long and eight feet wide. We had seven hundred buffalo robes on board and
four hundred buffalo tongues. There were seven of us in company- sailing down the South Fork of the
Platte to St. Louis. The water was very shallow and we proceeded with great difficulty, getting on
sand bars every few minutes. We were obliged to wade and push the boat alone most of the way for
almost three hundred miles, which took us forty-nine days. E.
Willard Smith
The last one is one I find so funny. For those who are familiar with the South Platte, you can
at best timesof the year take a canoe down it with a little trouble. But to see a boat this size
made at a fort along it and then try to take any you can all the way down to St.Louis would be
so difficult. Yet it was done. History is so much more than easy phases and over used generalites
that get wore out and then passed on to another generation of people. And to say that all
tribes had certain customs is wrong.
mike.
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:06:41 -0500
From: swassell@arcadiapublishing.com
Subject: MtMan-List: submission for list
Mountain History Enthusiasts:
I am an editor with Arcadia Publishing in Chicago. We publish local and
regional histories throughout the U.S., and we have just expanded our
catalogue to include the Pacific Northwest.
I was wondering if you could suggest any local historians, archivists, or
organizations that might be interested in working with us on publishing a
pictorial history of your area. We are a non-vanity press, so we do not
charge authors to publish with us. Any contacts you can recommend would be
appreciated, or if you are interested, I will gladly forward you some
information about our publishing services, as well as a complimentary title
in our Images of America series.
Thank you for your time.
Sarah Wassell
Aquisitions Editor
Arcadia Publishing
3047 N. Lincoln Ave, Suite 410
Chicago, IL 60657
swassell@arcadiapublishing.com
773.549.7002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:58:03 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans
Thanks JW,
And when are you moving back to the area <GG>.
Take care,
Buck
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "JW Stephens" <lray@mindspring.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: toboggans
> My experience with a rig like this was that it worked well on flats, but
> when you get to hills you need to go straight up them. It does not work
> worth a hoot on side hills. It becomes monumental work when fresh snow
> falls and piles up. But then, just wandering off to take a pee qualifies
> as monumental when you are postholing piled up powder.
>
> I don't recall reading about one of these in use ... anybody?
>
> (My collection of MoftheFTQ doesn't go back as far as Buck's does. In
> fact, nothing I have does ... ;-)
>
> (Saucy) B'st'rd
>
> BARRY CONNER wrote:
> >
> > The one I was referring to from the Museum of the Fur trade, was made
from
> > straight lodge pole pine, split in half the full 6' length making a flat
> > surface on the bottom, with 4 cross pieces to hold the long poles
together.
> > A piece of elk rawhide was fastened on the front edge and rolled back in
a
> > "C" shape to the main body. the pull rope and guide ropes attach to the
> > cross pieces. Simple to make and if loaded low as possible and taking
only
> > what one would carry on his back, it works very nicely.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:44:00 -0600
From: "Don & Janice Shero" <deshero@pionet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: tribal customs
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Hello all,
Reading again where the trappers and all , found many plains tribes =
where native women were much cleaner than white wimmen.
Just an anecdotal note...retiring after 30 yrs. of teaching, the =
wife took a job teaching on an reservation in Neb. =20
The Indian girls will drive 50 mi. to get their nails done each =
week..hair done also.
It is a poverty pocket, no jobs, no income, etc. Most middle school and =
high school kids like to dress fashionable, but these kids
are really spit and polish, almost to obsession. They may leave a sorta =
rundown house, in a smoking old rustbucket, but they dress fine.
Can't remember where I read of old time Indians breaking the ice on =
streams every morning to wash their hair, but i believe it.
Of course they reapplied buffalo dung as a hair tonic.
Don
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:21:41 -0800
From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Honesty(?)
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"> Mr. J. W. Stephens his confederates,</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"><BR>It would be a beautiful world if humanity were as honest as the animals. But unlike your RMFT of the past, the individuals of the present are striving to become what was. And yes, just as you were baiting and deceiving along, only you and a few of the others were doing the same. And the only reason they were mad was because they looked in the mirror and could not see what they believed it to be. Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because they know he is better than they hope to be.<BR></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag2_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:58:34 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Honesty(?)
In a message dated 1/30/2002 5:22:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com writes:
<< Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because
they know he is better than they hope to be. >>
... sounds to me like our Lists' own Internet Troll is back at work, again.
If you want any info on these creatures, check the following link(s),
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:12:11 -0800
From: "SUE RAVEN" <blond40ddqhearts@hotmail.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: CORRECTION-A BIG UNCALLED FOR MISUNDERSTANDING!
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<P>Gentleman,</P>
<P> In regard to the abscure post by myself earlier, please disregard. It was a terrible misuderstanding on my part. None of what I had imagined was even remotely happening.</P>
<P>"O.k. Give her thirty lashes then cut her down". And she heard them say, "AMEN".</P>
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<P><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"> Mr. J. W. Stephens his confederates,</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"><BR>It would be a beautiful world if humanity were as honest as the animals. But unlike your RMFT of the past, the individuals of the present are striving to become what was. And yes, just as you were baiting and deceiving along, only you and a few of the others were doing the same. And the only reason they were mad was because they looked in the mirror and could not see what they believed it to be. Before I, there was one whom intimidated many; now he is accepted because they know he is better than they hope to be.<BR></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial Black, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag2_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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