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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, January 22 2002       Volume 01 : Number 932



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: horses
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: horses
-áááááá MtMan-List: last reply
-áááááá MtMan-List: rumor squelched
-áááááá MtMan-List: Ballistic report
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: last reply
-áááááá MtMan-List: Living it on the ground
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
-áááááá MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE".
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE".

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:57:45 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: horses

C. Kent said,
    <The widespread use of horses on a dad-to-day basis is just far too
widely mentioned in almost all the literature to think otherwise.>
    C. you stated the obvious.
    In reading this thread I have begun to wonder what the point of it is
and where it is going. Mebbe downhill?
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:14:23 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Last reply to Mike Powell

In a message dated 1/21/02 7:00:45 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I got news for you...what separates me from the vast majority of
historians and "wanta be" mountain men is that I have been there. >>

You boys reckon this guy is that fella from over around Missoula...Clint
Garret? Kinda sounds like him.

Magpie

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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:25:49 -0800
From: "SUE RAVEN" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: horses

It is very well documented that the Astor period was done most of the time
using the river system.  That implies boats of one type or another.

Strange, I never thought these he-man fur trappers capable of carrying  all
their gear and furs on their backs all the way from Saint Louis or St.
Joseph, Mo. to the Rockies.   It surprises me how some men idolize their
heroes into such myths to the point of not seeing the obvious.

No one has yet, brought up the facts that horses were traded and stolen from
California to supply mountain men endeavors.  A big part of the fur trade.
I guess I'll just have to hunt down that material on Walker and Captain
Bonneville.

It amazes me how some boys stoop to imitating  some frustrated female
friends I know.  Can not you argue and debate  intellectually without
stooping to " wearing your heart on your sleeves"?



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:31:22 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: last reply

Ned,

Sorry to see you feel the need to hit the "unsubscribe button". I for one
have enjoyed this exchange for the educational benefits I derive. Not being
a horse person, it's still interesting to hear what folks who are have to
say about the horse and it's use during the Fur Trade.

But I'm saddened to say that we can't discuss ideas and share knowledge
without sounding pissy about someone's suggestion that our dearest held
beliefs might need adjusting. I'm sure it wouldn't be the case around the
fire or across the table but here in this medium we seem too often to appear
to speak in a manner other than intended.

The use of "YMOS" is a throw back to a more civilized age of communication.
As always I do remain.........

Your Most Obedient Servant
Capt. Lahti'






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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 12:41:45 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rumor squelched

    Concerning a posting several weeks ago, I received the below in response
to a request I sent to Wal-Mart management.

    <<We are not discontinuing the handling of muzzle-loading guns and
shooting
accessories.  Wal-Mart Sporting Goods is a destination point for all
customers who participate in the Hunting and Shooting Sports.
Thanks,
Wal-Mart Customer Relations>>

Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders



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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:01:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Ballistic report

Klahowya boys,

I'm just back from the butcher wid more buffalo steaks, roasts, ribs, and
hamburg than I thought I could pack into a freezer. I also got the round ball
back that I didn't have time to dig for.

I used a 325 grain, .600 pure lead round ball, in front of 90 grains of 2f
powder on the bull. Recovered, it still weighs 325 grains, but mushrooms in
size to 1.10 X 1.00 X .30 at it's thickest point.....somewhat larger than a
quarter.

(The following may not make good reading for wimmins and youngins)

The shot at about thirty yards, broke the near leg and rib on entry, hit the
top area of the heart, severed the main artery, hit at least one lung, broke
another rib on the way out, and stopped at the hide on the far side. The
buffalo was down in 20 yards or so... That ain't bad performance for a Tulle,
and would be my choice of weapon, for shots at big critters under 50 yards...

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:35:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Iliff <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: last reply

Greetings all,

I'm new here and have not posted until now.  Please
note: Mr. Eddins signed his name to his posts.

Warmest regards to you all,

Robert Iliff


__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:17:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Living it on the ground

In a message dated 1/21/02 5:43:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and get your
head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for yourself on
what works and what doesn't.  >>
  Fellas,

I would like to say that I did an overnight on the ground in wet and freezing
conditions.

I can say that I have done it before in wet and in freezing but never the two
together.  Cut enough boughs to get you off the ground, put a decent blanket
over it, peel off your wet outer layer, put your other blankets on top (after
you have built a cheery fire if the terrain and situation allows) and tuck in
all the edges to keep out cold-air creep.

I have to say I had not slept so toasty and comfy in a long while.  Better
than my own bed.  For those of you who only read about it...get out there and
try it!!!

- -C.Kent

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:38:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses

Guys,

Here is my 2 cents.  I think what Mike says is right.  Experience has more
meaning than reading.  Besides, do those of you who indicate horses were
impractical own or even ride a horse.  In my opinion, once you've ridden and
taken care of one on a daily basis, it opens up a whole new understanding.

I know many who say they have a lot of experience with horses and say they
aren't worth the trouble.  I disagree; they have no experience with horses!
Just because you've ridden doesn't mean you have experience or
understanding, even if you've ridden a lot.  Something Bill Cunningham said
to this group about horses recently rings true.  If you go out for a month
and live with your horse, you get to know them very well; better than you
know most people.  That is experience.  Something Walt McCurdy, past
Capitaine of the AMM once said to me also rings true.  Until you've
experienced what we do (meaning riding into Rendezvous, trapping, getting
out on the ground, etc.) on horseback, you will never know what the
experience was really like.

As far as did they ride horses, I simply point to the documented art work
and journal of Alfred Jacob Miller at Rendezvous in 1837.  Almost every
scenery picture he painted had a horse in it.  Where do you think they came
from and why were they there?  I can't underscore the importance of horses
to the Fur Trade with the exception of maybe the weapons and the traps.

Again, just my opinion.

Best Regards,

Jerry Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________





At 03:44 AM 01/21/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Ned,
>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow shoes
you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in the
mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and
get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for
yourself on what works and what doesn't.  The answers will come ringing true
to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life.
One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse.
Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.
>Truly,
>Mike Powell
>Fort Henry country
>Upper Snake River Plains
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Allen Hall
>Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
>
>Ned,
>
>Gonna jump in with Wynn here.  Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5
>pounds each.  Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and
>your rifle and shooting pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple
>miles, in moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses.
>
>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............
>
>Allen from Fort Hall country.
>
>At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>Wynn,
>>
>>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have
>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days
>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were.  Show me
>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot
>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.
>>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance,  Wislizenus
>>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that most
>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often
>>prized possessions.
>>
>>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these
>>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since
>>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they
>>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
>>
>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:
>>
>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks -
>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21.
>>
>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to
>>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
>>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
>>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,
>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before
>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.
>>
>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure
>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am
>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this
>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.
>>
>>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities,
>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the
>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.
>>
>>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of
>>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you
>>list these references, please put the source and page number.
>>
>>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between
>>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come
>>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called
>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save
>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which
>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are
>>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when
>>once they are acclimated, are superior.
>>
>>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses
>>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off
>>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three
>>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,
>>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.
>>
>> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger
>>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to
>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for
>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.
>>
>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the
>>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.
>>
>>Take care,
>>Ned
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGet
more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Ned,</DIV>
<DIV>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow
shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground,
living in the mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake of a
few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually
experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what doesn't.
The answers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the
Mountaineer to the test in your life.  One doesn't travel in the
Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse.  Warren Ferris, Osborne
Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV>
<DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV>
<DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV
style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>
Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January
20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>
[e-mail]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn here.  Average
trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each.  Now toss in a bed
roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your rifle and shooting
pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in
moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men had
horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between
water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 AM
1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You wrote:
The only time horses were a liability was when they did not
have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out
of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that
were.  Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I
will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.<BR>>There are
mentions of "American horses", for instance,  Wislizenus<BR>>(1839)
makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that
most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were
often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your comments
because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would you
please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the purpose
of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they<BR>>spent
70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the
horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding
horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for
about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 -
internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette
(Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and set out
(from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only traveling
companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John E.
Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and
Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the
way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the
dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most
anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally
so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring
over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the
Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left there
(Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing
commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men)
walked except the<BR>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson
Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with this,
but since you now owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding horses
five out of seven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these references,
please put the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where
this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between<BR>>Indian and
American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come<BR>>originally
from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be
called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know
no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than
American horses, which<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still
American horses, because they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are much
sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are
acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an American Horse????? The
Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were superior. When raiding
an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' horses.
The reason being that Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or four times
farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,<BR>>and the
soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once Indians were
on reservations, the government supplied them with larger<BR>>horses,
i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small
to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading
for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really
appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you
want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and riding
horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>>Take
care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>--------------------
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:06:52 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE".

AMM benefit event, a "BUFFALO HUNT" in historic Ft. Wallace Kansas ...

The AMM has taken upon itself the task of providing a period hunt
(1800-1840) with "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" - the winner will be able to
hunt on 23 sections of the Kansas plains in a primitive setting, as many of
our forefather's had experienced, a true muzzle loading hunt that the winner
will remember for the rest of his life.

 Follow this link to learn more and buy chances for a once-in-a-lifetme
hunt!
http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html

D

Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM]  (American Mountain
Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle".


AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html
Double Edge forge  http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/
Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/
Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/

see the AMM site for more supporters of this event.




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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:12:41 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses

Jerry and friends,
  Well Jerry, it might be "just your opinion" but it is based in fact. So,
I'll have to agree with you. One thing that I would have to say about Neds
last entry is , Ferris was in the mountains starting in 1830. That's only 3
short years after 1827 according to my calculations. I don't think the
"horse culture of the mountains" changed that much in 3 yrs.
  For an earlier example read about George Droulliard and the Delaware
trappers with him. They were off away from the rest of the brigade when they
got caught by Blackfeet, and they had to kill their horses for breastworks
real quick. Peirre Menard wrote about that event, it happened in 1810. So, I
am sorry for Ned getting his hair up, but this list,in my opinion,is to
share research and palaver like we're around a big fire. Lots of times there
is some augerin' and light hearted jokin'. This list has been a source of
education, comaradarie, and entertainment. Thank you Dean Rudy!!! So, like
the li' lady said, can you take part without wearin' your heart on your
sleeve?
Talk to ya all later and have a great day,
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country


>From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
>Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:38:11 -0800 (PST)
>
>Guys,
>
>Here is my 2 cents.  I think what Mike says is right.  Experience has more
>meaning than reading.  Besides, do those of you who indicate horses were
>impractical own or even ride a horse.  In my opinion, once you've ridden
>and
>taken care of one on a daily basis, it opens up a whole new understanding.
>
>I know many who say they have a lot of experience with horses and say they
>aren't worth the trouble.  I disagree; they have no experience with horses!
>Just because you've ridden doesn't mean you have experience or
>understanding, even if you've ridden a lot.  Something Bill Cunningham said
>to this group about horses recently rings true.  If you go out for a month
>and live with your horse, you get to know them very well; better than you
>know most people.  That is experience.  Something Walt McCurdy, past
>Capitaine of the AMM once said to me also rings true.  Until you've
>experienced what we do (meaning riding into Rendezvous, trapping, getting
>out on the ground, etc.) on horseback, you will never know what the
>experience was really like.
>
>As far as did they ride horses, I simply point to the documented art work
>and journal of Alfred Jacob Miller at Rendezvous in 1837.  Almost every
>scenery picture he painted had a horse in it.  Where do you think they came
>from and why were they there?  I can't underscore the importance of horses
>to the Fur Trade with the exception of maybe the weapons and the traps.
>
>Again, just my opinion.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Jerry Zaslow #1488
>________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>At 03:44 AM 01/21/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Ned,
> >While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow
>shoes
>you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground, living in the
>mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake of a few like experiences and
>get your head out of the books and actually experience and experiment for
>yourself on what works and what doesn't.  The answers will come ringing
>true
>to you as you put the skills of the Mountaineer to the test in your life.
>One doesn't travel in the Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse.
>Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to
>this.
> >Truly,
> >Mike Powell
> >Fort Henry country
> >Upper Snake River Plains
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Allen Hall
> >Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:32 AM
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
> >
> >Ned,
> >
> >Gonna jump in with Wynn here.  Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5
> >pounds each.  Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much),
>and
> >your rifle and shooting pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a
>couple
> >miles, in moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses.
> >
> >The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between
>water............
> >
> >Allen from Fort Hall country.
> >
> >At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >>
> >>Wynn,
> >>
> >>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not
>have
> >>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7
>days
> >>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were.  Show me
> >>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot
> >>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.
> >>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance,  Wislizenus
> >>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that most
> >>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often
> >>prized possessions.
> >>
> >>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about
>these
> >>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse.
>Since
> >>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe
>they
> >>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
> >>
> >>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:
> >>
> >>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks -
> >>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page
>21.
> >>
> >>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell
>to
> >>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
> >>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
> >>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and
>Sublette,
> >>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before
> >>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.
> >>
> >>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to
>procure
> >>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as
>I am
> >>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to
>this
> >>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page
>218.
> >>
> >>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing
>commodities,
> >>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the
> >>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page
>1.
> >>
> >>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references
>of
> >>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you
> >>list these references, please put the source and page number.
> >>
> >>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison
>between
> >>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come
> >>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be
>called
> >>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food
>save
> >>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses,
>which
> >>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are
> >>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and,
>when
> >>once they are acclimated, are superior.
> >>
> >>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American"
>horses
> >>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run
>off
> >>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel
>three
> >>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry
>horses,
> >>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.
> >>
> >> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with
>larger
> >>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small
>to
> >>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for
> >>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.
> >>
> >>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list
>the
> >>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.
> >>
> >>Take care,
> >>Ned
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----------------------
> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGet
>more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
> ><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Ned,</DIV>
><DIV>While you're getting all those references on Mt. Men walking in snow
>shoes you might want to look up the times they spent on the ground,
>living in the mountains.  Then might I suggest you partake of a
>few like experiences and get your head out of the books and actually
>experience and experiment for yourself on what works and what
>doesn't.
>The answers will come ringing true to you as you put the skills of the
>Mountaineer to the test in your life.  One doesn't travel in the
>Rocky Mountains very far without a good horse.  Warren Ferris, Osborne
>Russell, Nat Wyeth, Jed Smith, etc all attest to this.</DIV>
><DIV>Truly,</DIV> <DIV>Mike Powell</DIV> <DIV>Fort Henry country</DIV>
><DIV>Upper Snake River Plains</DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>
><DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
>MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV
>style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV
>style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>
>Allen Hall</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January
>20, 2002 10:32 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>
>[e-mail]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
>Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses</DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>Ned,<BR><BR>Gonna jump in with Wynn here.  Average
>trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5<BR>pounds each.  Now toss in a bed
>roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and<BR>your rifle and shooting
>pouch.  Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple<BR>miles, in
>moccasins.  You'll quickly see why the mountain men had
>horses.<BR><BR>The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between
>water............<BR><BR>Allen from Fort Hall country.<BR><BR>At 07:42 AM
>1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:<BR>><BR>>Wynn,<BR>><BR>>You wrote:
>The only time horses were a liability was when they did not
>have<BR>>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out
>of 7 days<BR>>during the trapping season and I will show you three that
>were.  Show me<BR>>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and
>I
>will show you a foot<BR>>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.<BR>>There are
>mentions of "American horses", for instance,  Wislizenus<BR>>(1839)
>makes an interesting comparison between them.  I agree that
>most<BR>>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were
>often<BR>>prized possessions.<BR>><BR>>I appreciated your comments
>because it stimulates me to think about these<BR>>things. Would you
>please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since<BR>>the
>purpose
>of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they<BR>>spent
>70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the
>horses.<BR>><BR>>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding
>horses:<BR>><BR>>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for
>about six weeks -<BR>>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 -
>internet excerpt page 21.<BR>><BR>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette
>(Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to<BR>>their friends and set out
>(from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,<BR>>their only traveling
>companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain<BR>>Man, John E.
>Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and
>Sublette,<BR>>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the
>way, before<BR>>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the
>dog.<BR>><BR>>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most
>anxious to procure<BR>>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally
>so they should not, as I am<BR>>of the opinion they are anxious to bring
>over a party of trappers to this<BR>>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the
>Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.<BR>><BR>>.We left there
>(Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing
>commodities,<BR>>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men)
>walked except the<BR>>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson
>Price Hunts Journal page 1.<BR>><BR>>I could go on and on with this,
>but since you now owe me 12 references of<BR>>Mountain Men riding horses
>five out of seven days, I will stop. When you<BR>>list these references,
>please put the source and page number.<BR>><BR>>I fail to see where
>this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between<BR>>Indian and
>American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come<BR>>originally
>from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be
>called<BR>>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know
>no food save<BR>>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than
>American horses, which<BR>>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still
>American horses, because they are<BR>>larger and handsomer, are much
>sought after by whites and Indians, and, when<BR>>once they are
>acclimated, are superior.<BR>><BR>>What is an American Horse????? The
>Military never believed "American" horses<BR>>were superior. When
>raiding
>an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off<BR>>the Indians' horses.
>The reason being that Indian horses could travel three<BR>>or four times
>farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,<BR>>and
>the
>soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.<BR>><BR>> Once Indians were
>on reservations, the government supplied them with larger<BR>>horses,
>i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small
>to<BR>>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading
>for<BR>>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really
>appreciate it.<BR>><BR>>This is a long email so I will stop. If you
>want, I will be glad to list the<BR>>liabilities of keeping and riding
>horses in snow and Indian country.<BR>><BR>>Take
>care,<BR>>Ned<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>--------------------
>--<BR>>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>><BR>><BR><BR><B
>R>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></
>HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :
><a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>
> >
>
>
>----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:53:21 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE".

Hey Magpie,

This "Great Buffalo Raffle" is going to be a good one, look at those
pictures - that could be one of us, right Dennis.  Magpie does this bring
back memories.

Buck


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:06 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE".


> AMM benefit event, a "BUFFALO HUNT" in historic Ft. Wallace Kansas ...
>
> The AMM has taken upon itself the task of providing a period hunt
> (1800-1840) with "THE GREAT BUFFALO RAFFLE" - the winner will be able to
> hunt on 23 sections of the Kansas plains in a primitive setting, as many
of
> our forefather's had experienced, a true muzzle loading hunt that the
winner
> will remember for the rest of his life.
>
>  Follow this link to learn more and buy chances for a once-in-a-lifetme
> hunt!
> http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html
>
> D
>
> Visit one or all these sites, find out about the [AMM]  (American Mountain
> Men's) "Great Buffalo Raffle".
>
>
> AMM "The Great Buffalo Raffle": http://conner110.tripod.com/AMM-hunt.html
> Double Edge forge  http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
> Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com/
> Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com/
> Historical Research & Development: http://hrd7.tripod.com/
>
> see the AMM site for more supporters of this event.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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