You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have
them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days
during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me
a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot
sore, hungry, and poor fellow.
There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus
(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most
horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often
prized possessions.
I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these
things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since
the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they
spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:
.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks -
Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21.
.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to
their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,
Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before
reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.
.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure
snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am
of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this
quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.
.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities,
munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the
company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.
I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of
Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you
list these references, please put the source and page number.
I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between
Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come
originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called
handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save
grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which
usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are
larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when
once they are acclimated, are superior.
What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses
were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off
the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three
or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,
and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.
Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger
horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to
use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for
American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.
This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the
liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.
Take care,
Ned
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:13:26 -0500
From: hikingonthru@cs.com
Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
IN response to Ned's last posting:
purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they
>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
Ned, I am going to assume you have at least scouted out and trapped one beaver. Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long. YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back??? Dang things get heavy.
>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success>
And today, many hunters continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount. Horses get you places you want to be that are inaccessible by foot. THEN you walk.
>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<<
I may be wrong, but I believe they left b/c of the dire witner encampment situation and the horses they had were eaten or killed by winter already.
I may be wrong on this one.
As far as the "larger" American horses...every kid wants a cooler bike than the next door neighbor. Cannot imagine that humans were so much more different about horses back then. It was new, different, desirable, etc. If they were less superior then that was a lesson natives had yet to widely learn. Remember the concept of the "pony raid"? Not just for glory.
And, of course, when the brigade you mentioned set out of the Arikara village they had loaded horses packed to the hilt. If one can afford it and can carry it, then it makes sense to take all you can with you. Time spent hunting and killing food is NOT time spent pulling furs out of the water...the ultimate purpose for which they were there. Plus, those foodstuffs were great additional nutrients. Also, it was good preparation for winter when snow may bind them in a camp. These guys were not stupid and thought of many things that may happen and planned for such contingencies. JUST BECAUSE they all started out walking by no means suggests they did not end up riding...as supplies dwindled and all horses were not loaded or even after they dropped supplies in camp and began to break off into smaller trapping parties. AND you quoted only one instance of the brigade walking...show me a pattern. Nah, my friend, those guys rode...maybe not 5 of 7 days, but they rode a lot. Just like working a trapline with truck, 4 wheeler or snowmobile. More land covered and more catches much quicker.
They likely had to, you ever seen how quickly an area can be trapped clean of beaver??? I can wipe out a colony in a week of daily trapping. I am sure they experienced similar situations as they worked stream after stream. This proven by the rendezvous records of packs of beaver taken back as years passed.
YHS,
- -C.Kent
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:33:49 -0700
From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
Ned,
Gonna jump in with Wynn here. Average trapper had 4-6 traps, weighing 5
pounds each. Now toss in a bed roll, personal gear (which wasn't much), and
your rifle and shooting pouch. Gather all that stuff up and hike a couple
miles, in moccasins. You'll quickly see why the mountain men had horses.
The Rocky Mountains is a big place, lotta walking between water............
Allen from Fort Hall country.
At 07:42 AM 1/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Wynn,
>
>You wrote: The only time horses were a liability was when they did not have
>them. Show me a trapping brigade that was not on the move 5 out of 7 days
>during the trapping season and I will show you three that were. Show me
>a trapper without some of Ned's liabilities and I will show you a foot
>sore, hungry, and poor fellow.
>There are mentions of "American horses", for instance, Wislizenus
>(1839) makes an interesting comparison between them. I agree that most
>horses were from Spanish origins but the American horses were often
>prized possessions.
>
>I appreciated your comments because it stimulates me to think about these
>things. Would you please explain how to trap a beaver off of a horse. Since
>the purpose of the brigades was to trap beaver, it is hard to believe they
>spent 70% of the time riding unless they could trap off the horses.
>
>Here are some examples of Mountain Men not riding horses:
>
>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success for about six weeks -
>Journal of a Mountain Man, James Clyman page 30 - internet excerpt page 21.
>
>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)said farewell to
>their friends and set out (from Cache Valley) on snowshoes for the East,
>their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog.Bill Sublette Mountain
>Man, John E. Sunder page 71. As a partner in Smith, Jackson, and Sublette,
>Sublette would have taken horses if any were there. By the way, before
>reaching St. Louis, Sublette and Harris ate the dog.
>
>.the Americans (Samuel Tullock and Party) are now most anxious to procure
>snow shoes, and I (Peter Skene Ogden) am equally so they should not, as I am
>of the opinion they are anxious to bring over a party of trappers to this
>quarter.Jedediah Smith and the Opening of the West, Dale Morgan page 218.
>
>.We left there (Arikara Village) with eighty-two horses packing commodities,
>munitions, food, and animal traps. Everyone (56 men) walked except the
>company partners and the woman, a squaw.Wilson Price Hunts Journal page 1.
>
>I could go on and on with this, but since you now owe me 12 references of
>Mountain Men riding horses five out of seven days, I will stop. When you
>list these references, please put the source and page number.
>
>I fail to see where this comment by Wislizenus is a good comparison between
>Indian and American horses.The Indian horses are said to have come
>originally from Mexico. They are of a small breed, and seldom can be called
>handsome; but they are very swift and hardy, and as they know no food save
>grass, are much more suitable for such a journey than American horses, which
>usually grow lean on mere grass. Still American horses, because they are
>larger and handsomer, are much sought after by whites and Indians, and, when
>once they are acclimated, are superior.
>
>What is an American Horse????? The Military never believed "American" horses
>were superior. When raiding an Indian village, soldiers killed or run off
>the Indians' horses. The reason being that Indian horses could travel three
>or four times farther in a day than "the superior American" cavalry horses,
>and the soldiers could not catch mounted Indians.
>
> Once Indians were on reservations, the government supplied them with larger
>horses, i.e. Morgan and Percheron, because the Indian horse was to small to
>use as a draft animal. If you have a reference of Indians trading for
>American horses in pre-reservation days, I would really appreciate it.
>
>This is a long email so I will stop. If you want, I will be glad to list the
>liabilities of keeping and riding horses in snow and Indian country.
>
>Take care,
>Ned
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:51:10 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: use of horses
I always thought Sublette and harris set out on foot with a pack dog,
because it was the dead of winter. the snow was deep and food for horses
would be hard to come by does that make sense. tom
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:41:00 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: use of horses
It was, but I have found no indications that they had horses in Cache Valley
that winter. I lived there ten years and it would take a lot of effort to
keep horses alive there in the winter time.
Ned
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:02:51 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
I did not say they didn't use horses to get to the trapping areas. My
argument with Wynn is that once they split off to trap the individual
streams, they stayed put until the stream was trapped out which could be
days to weeks. During this time, I have found no evidence they rode their
horse five out of seven days. Most trappers had two to four camp tenders
with them so one trapper did not pack everything.
One of the reasons they didn't use horse once they were where they were
going is that horses attracted Indians. Between tracks and manure horses
leave lots of sign. The literature is full of trappers being set afoot
because their horse had been stolen.
Ned
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:12:38 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com>
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Use of Horses
Kent,
Once you know how to make your sets it does not take long.****Traps were set
late afternoon and re-checked the next morning that is quite awhile.
YOU ever hauled around a years worth of pelts on your back???****Did you
ever hear of a cache??? Many of which were dug up by Indians and the
trappers lost their furs.
>.we continued trapping on foot with fair success> And today, many hunters
continue to stalk elk and deer on foot with fair success...once they ride a
horse or 4 wheeler into that country and dismount.****What does this have to
do with trapping furs in the Rocky Mountains from 1824 to 1840??
>>.On New Years day, 1827, Sublette (Bill) and Harris (Moses)...and set out
their only traveling companion an Indian pack dog...would have taken horses
if any were there. Sublette and Harris ate the dog.<<I may be wrong, but I
believe they left b/c of the dire witner encampment situation and the horses
they had were eaten or killed by winter already.***You are. .they returned
to their old rendezvous site and settled down to outwait the snow and cold
winds. From time to time they forged for game, but other wise there were no
pressing duties. Sublette was taking the express to Ashley for the supplies
needed for the next rendezvous. page 70. My point of this was when the rest
of the trappers left the valley in the spring they walked.
As far as the "larger" American horses...every kid wants a cooler bike than
the next door neighbor. Cannot imagine that humans were so much more
different about horses back then. Read: The Horse in Blackfoot Indian
Culture by John C. Ewers, The Plains Indians by Francis Haines, and The
Indian and the Horse by Frank Gilbert Roe then we can have an intelligent
discussion on this.
And, of course, when the brigade you mentioned set out of the Arikara
village they had loaded horses packed to the hilt.You obviously know nothing
about the Astorians. Read Astoria by Washington Irving and Roberts Stuart's
Narratives of his Overland Trip Eastward from Astoria. In case you think
this does not apply to the fur trade, Hunt left trappers in Jackson Hole and
Idaho.
AND you quoted only one instance of the brigade walking...show me a pattern.
I did Clyman and Tullock
Nah, my friend, those guys rode...maybe not 5 of 7 days, but they rode a
lot. Just like working a trapline with truck, 4 wheeler or snowmobile***In
the original post I said the packers and brigades used horse to get where
they were going.. After reaching the area, a trapper and his camp tenders
split off and stayed put. It took Peter Skene Ogden with 131 people six
days to trap out a valley 3 miles by six miles.
More land covered and more catches much quicker.This was the North West
Company's scorched earth policy. Simpson believed if they trapped out all of
the beaver the Americans would have no reason to go to the Oregon Country.
The Americans did not follow this scorched earth policy.
I appreciate your comments, but you can not apply today's standards to
trapping in the Rocky Mountains in the 1800s.
Take Care,
Ned
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Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:18:50 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <neddins@silverstar.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horses
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I do not want to take up the lists time with this. If any of you have =
questions, or want to send me specific references from the fur trade =
literature against my position, I would appreciate it. =
neddins@silverstar.com=20
Thanks
Ned
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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> I beleive I pointed out in the post that this was seen by James as a dangerous endeavor; studs being what they are. If you read the post initially he wanted no part of the stallion untill he saw that the Indian had gentled him down some. Ned, you know as well as I do, being the daughter and sister of muzzleloaders and hunters, people often embellish the truth in conversation. I get your drift, it is highly possible that James could have lied or told a tall tail about the stud's gentle turn around.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"> My brother, said " . . . after a horse is much older than five, dog food is what becomes it's best use. " He said that old Gable movie with Marilyn Monroe, "THE MISFITS", was hard core pacifist and 'bunny hugger' propaganda to satiate an anti-war public after enduring the enemies of WWII. The roping of the horse by Gable with Marilyn's protest he claimed was symbolicly showing the shift of rulership from male aggression toward more 'Femenist subjugation'. We really went round and round on that one as he is from the old school like Dad. Point being, he was making in his philosophical bent, was that he thought the film's message was strongly biased against the only logical use of the older mature wild horse. His words, " Can those wild BLM mustangs, and as sad as it may be, I won't put out $125 a month of feed for a worn out horse". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">I see your point,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS">Sue Raven</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag4_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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>If they had horses for the Indians to steal, they musta had horses.(Logic
Don,
That is what I thought, too. But, it smelled as if this thing may degenerate into one of those "if I can prove you wrong on one point then you are totally wrong on all points" type of things...and that is not any fun. THAT mode of operation holds no logic at all.
And I do not see what my knowledge level of Astor had to do with anything at all. They were loaded to the gills when they left...but like I said...thhhpppffff! on that !! <BG>
In perusing a large number of documents regarding the fur trade, can all say that sometimes they rode and sometimes they walked and sometimes they walked with their horses and sometimes away from their horses AND sometime strying to steal their horses back.
The widespread use of horses on a dad-to-day basis is just far too widely mentioned in almost all the literature to think otherwise. The fact that such issues as native vs. american horses was an issue even back then reveals the gravity and import the horse had on the rocky mtn. culture at large during the RMFT period.
In short, this thread is rapidly going moot!!
- -C.Kent
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