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hist_text-digest        Sunday, January 6 2002        Volume 01 : Number 924



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Footwear
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Footwear
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:37:11 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!!

Amen. Let him rant. If you use your DELETE button, you don't have to deal
with he/she/it.
Don


>From: <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!!
>Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:33:11 -0500
>
>Why do some of you let him get under your skin? let him rant....In the end
>the only one he will make look bad is himself.
>
>Peace to all,
>"Cold Brass"
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 9:16 PM
>Subject: WAS:MtMan-List: a few understand..NOW: Stop It!!!
>
>
> > Hello Camp,
> >
> > I posted a message not too long ago with some outside observations about
>AMM brotherhood and impressions given bot pos. and neg.
> >
> > I usually try not to say anything to deride anyone, but Clint (since you
>prefer to go by that name)...for the love of Pete, stop your little game.
> > It is stuff like that, that makes noone want to play with you!  I am
>willing to bet if you just let it go and started asking some forthright
>questions and adding decent, helpful info. the timbre of the list toward
>you
>will change.  That is just how I have seen it happen.
> >
> > Otherwise, I would humbly request that you withdraw from posting...or
>Mr.
>Rudy ban this person.
> >
> > I do not know about the rest of you, but I am tired of going through the
>postings like that.
> >
> > It just ain't fun no more.
> >
> > Sincerely (tired of this thread),
> > C.Kent
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:58:25 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles

Tom

Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have seen
in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry
re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you described-
a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit through
the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. Their
webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are purveyors
of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item.

Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Ballstaedt <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles


> webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle.  Its cheaper, less
> bulky and would likely breath a lot better.  mine is made out of leather
and
> is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and
gall
> the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch.  I
> could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2
leather
> billets neatly stitched to the ends.  I believe I'm going to have a go at
> one, thanks Clay!  for mentioning that.
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
>
>
> > Jerry
> >
> > A surcingle  (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky
> > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made
them
> > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the
> > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle
> seat
> > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art
work
> > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the
> > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If
> you
> > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will
> see
> > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early
> dragoons
> > clear into late Indian wars period.
> >
> > Clay Landry
> > Moorhead MT
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> > To: <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
> >
> >
> > > Clay,
> > >
> > > Good to hear from you.  As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols
> > made
> > > my saddle.  He is a Brother here in California and that is what he
told
> > me.
> > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically
> ask
> > > him for the reference at that time.  I know it is not in his Journal,
> "The
> > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the
> > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it.
> > >
> > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I
recall
> > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember
> > exactly
> > > what it is.  Is it a type of breast collar or something different?
> > Actually
> > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any
> > > problem with it slipping anymore.  That was more when I first started
> > riding
> > > it.  I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the
> > > problem with slipping.  Tell me more about the sircingle, though.
> > >
> > > Thanks and Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Jerry Zaslow #1488
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > ____
> > >
> > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >Jerry
> > > >
> > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a
> > sircingle? A
> > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of
the
> > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if
> > this
> > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position.
> > > >
> > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed
> Smith
> > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for
first
> > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles.
> > > >
> > > >Clay Landry
> > > >Moorhead MT
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> > > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Dog,
> > > >>
> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle.  It is 3/4
> rigged
> > > >and
> > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in
> > > >> California in 1826 or 27.  It would slip all over the place if I
> didn't
> > > >use
> > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath.
> All
> > of
> > > >my
> > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar.  I
> > doubt
> > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the
> > saddle
> > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions.  I ride in
> some
> > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity.  In the end, though,
all
> > the
> > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a
> > good
> > > >seat.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
> > _
> > > >____
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----------------------
> > > >> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----------------------
> > > >hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:40:36 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!

CLINT---
SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 09:29:43 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles

Clay/Tom
I sold a surcingle made of Horse Hair about 5 years ago. I figured it was
cavelry in oregin made around the 1870's about 28" lond with 5" iron rings
in both ends.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
>Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 8:58 AM
>

>Tom
>
>Cotton or hemp webbing would be period materials--based on what I have seen
>in the Grimsley ledgers. I have also encountered some Indian wars cavalry
>re-enactors using a surcingle made from webbing with-just as you described-
>a roller buckle, leather billet that tapered down to 2 inches to fit through
>the roller buckle. The buckle was also attached via a leather strap. Their
>webbing was 4 inch cotton duck and dyed blue. Evidently there are purveyors
>of period Indian wars cavalry tack that sell this item.
>
>Clay Landry
>Moorhead MT
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Thomas Ballstaedt <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:10 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
>
>
>> webbing sounds like a damn good idea for a surcingle.  Its cheaper, less
>> bulky and would likely breath a lot better.  mine is made out of leather
>and
>> is pretty near 7' or 8' long, and it used to slip back of the girth and
>gall
>> the horses belly till I put a little loop on the bottom of my cinch.  I
>> could see a nice strip of cotton webbing with a roller buckle and 2
>leather
>> billets neatly stitched to the ends.  I believe I'm going to have a go at
>> one, thanks Clay!  for mentioning that.
>> Tom
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
>> To: <[e-mail]>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles
>>
>>
>> > Jerry
>> >
>> > A surcingle  (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky
>> > Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made
>them
>> > from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the
>> > horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle
>> seat
>> > and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art
>work
>> > of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the
>> > ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If
>> you
>> > study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will
>> see
>> > that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early
>> dragoons
>> > clear into late Indian wars period.
>> >
>> > Clay Landry
>> > Moorhead MT
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>> > To: <[e-mail]>
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM
>> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
>> >
>> >
>> > > Clay,
>> > >
>> > > Good to hear from you.  As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols
>> > made
>> > > my saddle.  He is a Brother here in California and that is what he
>told
>> > me.
>> > > I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically
>> ask
>> > > him for the reference at that time.  I know it is not in his Journal,
>> "The
>> > > Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the
>> > > Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it.
>> > >
>> > > As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I
>recall
>> > > hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember
>> > exactly
>> > > what it is.  Is it a type of breast collar or something different?
>> > Actually
>> > > after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any
>> > > problem with it slipping anymore.  That was more when I first started
>> > riding
>> > > it.  I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the
>> > > problem with slipping.  Tell me more about the sircingle, though.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks and Best Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Jerry Zaslow #1488
>> > >
>> >
>>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>> > ____
>> > >
>> > > At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>> > > >Jerry
>> > > >
>> > > >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a
>> > sircingle? A
>> > > >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of
>the
>> > > >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if
>> > this
>> > > >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position.
>> > > >
>> > > >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed
>> Smith
>> > > >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for
>first
>> > > >person descriptions of fur trade saddles.
>> > > >
>> > > >Clay Landry
>> > > >Moorhead MT
>> > > >----- Original Message -----
>> > > >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>> > > >To: <[e-mail]>
>> > > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM
>> > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> Dog,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle.  It is 3/4
>> rigged
>> > > >and
>> > > >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in
>> > > >> California in 1826 or 27.  It would slip all over the place if I
>> didn't
>> > > >use
>> > > >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath.
>> All
>> > of
>> > > >my
>> > > >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar.  I
>> > doubt
>> > > >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the
>> > saddle
>> > > >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions.  I ride in
>> some
>> > > >> really hilly country and it is a necessity.  In the end, though,
>all
>> > the
>> > > >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a
>> > good
>> > > >seat.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Best Regards,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Jerry Zaslow #1488
>> > > >>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________________
>> > _
>> > > >____
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----------------------
>> > > >> hist_text list info:
>> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >----------------------
>> > > >hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----------------------
>> > > hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------
>> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:12:29 -0700
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Frank,

One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. These vendors =
usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups, so we =
will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob =
Schmidt:  [e-mail], he may be able to help you out.

Bead Shooter
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: [e-mail]=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Footwear


  I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs for =
various rendezvous.  Mentioned in a few were boots.  Do you know what =
kind of boots these were?  I have read many books and all mention mocs =
that the mountain men and hunters wore.  Did any of these gents wear =
boots?  If you could point me in the direction of some info., I would =
greately appreciate it.

  Thanks,

  Frank V. Rago

- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One of our AMM list members makes some =
excellent=20
boots. These vendors usually do not market their own products on the =
discussion=20
groups, so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try =

contacting Bob Schmidt:  <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>, =
he may be=20
able to help you out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bead Shooter</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 05, =
2002 5:47=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: =
Footwear</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was over at the AMM site reading a =
few of the=20
  supply logs for various rendezvous.  Mentioned in a few were =
boots. =20
  Do you know what kind of boots these were?  I have read many =
books and=20
  all mention mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore.  Did any =
of=20
  these gents wear boots?  If you could point me in the direction =
of some=20
  info., I would greately appreciate it.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V.=20
Rago</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C1969A.A5ED3200--


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:22:20 -0500
From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!

List members; can`t you see whats going on ??? clint needs the attention we
are giving him. He thrives on the unrest he has and is creating. WE ALL ARE
FEEDING HIM HIS NEEDS. We all know people who are the happiest when stiring
up a pile of stink. Read or delete his postings, don`t actknowledge his
presesce. He will tire of not getting attention and leave or act as an
adult.


> CLINT---
> SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE---
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> & "The Arkansas Underhammers"
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 10:20:17 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear

> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- --MS_Mac_OE_3093157217_389151_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Gene,
I purchased a pair of Dragoon style boots from= www.cows.com
They are made well and fit great and resonable price.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear
Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 10:12 AM


Frank,

One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. These vendors
usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups, so we
will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob
Schmidt:  [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> , he
may be able to help you out.

Bead Shooter
- ----- Original Message -----
From: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Footwear

I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs for various
rendezvous.  Mentioned in a few were boots.  Do you know what kind of boots
these were?  I have read many books and all mention mocs that the mountain
men and hunters wore.  Did any of these gents wear boots?  If you could
point me in the direction of some info., I would greately appreciate it.

Thanks,

Frank V. Rago


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Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Footwear</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Gene,<BR>
I purchased a pair of Dragoon style boots from=3D www.cows.com<BR>
They are made well and fit great and resonable price.<BR>
YMOS<BR>
Ole # 718<BR>
- ----------<BR>
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]><BR>
To: <[e-mail]><BR>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Footwear<BR>
Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 10:12 AM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Frank,<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">One of our AMM list members makes some excellent boots. Thes=
e vendors usually do not market their own products on the discussion groups,=
 so we will do it for them. I hope Bob doesn't mind, but try contacting Bob =
Schmidt:  <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
 <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>=
; , he may be able to help you out.<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Bead Shooter<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE>----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT> <<F=
ONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>>  <BR>
<B>To:</B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
 <<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><U>mailto:[e-mail]</U></FONT>=
>  <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 05, 2002 5:47 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Footwear<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">I was over at the AMM site reading a few of the supply logs =
for various rendezvous.  Mentioned in a few were boots.  Do you kn=
ow what kind of boots these were?  I have read many books and all menti=
on mocs that the mountain men and hunters wore.  Did any of these gents=
 wear boots?  If you could point me in the direction of some info., I w=
ould greately appreciate it.<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Thanks,<BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Frank V. Rago<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 10:22:20 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!

John,
Clint who?
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!
>Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 10:22 AM
>

>List members; can`t you see whats going on ??? clint needs the attention we
>are giving him. He thrives on the unrest he has and is creating. WE ALL ARE
>FEEDING HIM HIS NEEDS. We all know people who are the happiest when stiring
>up a pile of stink. Read or delete his postings, don`t actknowledge his
>presesce. He will tire of not getting attention and leave or act as an
>adult.
>
>
>> CLINT---
>> SAVE YOUR KEYSTROKES---I PUSHED DELETE---
>>
>>     "HAWK"
>> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
>> & "The Arkansas Underhammers"
>> 854 Glenfield Dr.
>> Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
>> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
>> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
>> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:32:53 -0500
From: "John Hunt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!

!


> John,
> Clint who?
> YMOS

                     Ole` thank you I understand now.


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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:58:29 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a few understand, most do not care too!

PErsonally, I am going to block him from my email server... then I don't
have to even use the DELETE key...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:10:05 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

Here's a short history of the Airgun

The use of compressed air to propel a projectile is an old concept dating
back to 250 BC, when a gentleman by the name of Ktesbias II of Egypt drew
plans and wrote of a weapon that would operate on mere air pressure. Vague
references to Ancient Greeks using a source of compressed air to throw rocks
at their enemies or in the Renaissance Period - inventor Leonardo DaVinci
having drawn plans for air powered weapons. Some historians have claimed
that Guter of Nuremberg in 1430 designed a working model of an air rifle,
(but never had it profectived). While others claim that Hans Lobsigner in
1560 produced a modified version of the Nuremberg hand held rifle that
worked flawlessly and produced numbers of them in the late 1500's. France,
Holland, Italy and several other small countries were producing airguns by
the early 1600's and supplying arms for personal protection.

The oldest existing airgun known is in the Royal Danish Arsenal in
Copenhagen and dates from around 1580.

Otto Von Guerick (1602-1686) established the principle of the vacuum with
the Madgeburg spheres, designed and building an air rifle using this surge
principle. His devise according to an article written by J.T.Haynes was
actually a cannon arrangement that used a detachable air reservoir connected
to the cannon tube. These wind chambers as they were called generated
considerable force, capable of propelling a four pound lead ball 500 yards,
and able to penetrate a three inch thick oak board.

The airgun history actually began in the late 16th and early 17th centuries,
these odd arms then equaled the power of the contemporary big-game and
waterfowl weapon or military firearm. Many thought that the Lewis and Clark
air rifle was an unusual item, when the real truth of the matter is this
type of weapon had been around for 400 years before the exploration of the
Northwest in 1804. Airguns were considered weapons of war, an early version
would be the blow gun powered by one's own breath, and many disagree on when
this early weapon came into being. In Europe many leaders would have anyone
using a crossbow or airgun put to death, they didn't like the idea of a
weapon being silent, in war or peace time.

The first largest produced airgun was of the bellows chamber design, so
named as implies, a spring loaded bellows was used for power with an
expanding ratchet device housed in the butt stock that was cranked or keyed
to rewind the spring. All bellows type guns were smooth bores according to
James W. Harrom (Beeman Precision) and many shot tufted large diameter darts
up to 50 caliber. They were all breech loading in design with the convential
barrel opening at the breech and tilting downward for loading. Most of the
bellows guns were of the long gun configuration, very few produced as
pistols, most were very elaborate in design, hardware and finishes. The
bellow gun production was short lived in the 1500's and mainly used as a
target weapon, but resumed popularity in the mid to late 1700's, 200 years
later that has puzzled historians world wide. According to Mr. Harrom most
bellows guns date from 1740 to 1790 and seem to come from a small area
bounded by Munich, Prague and Vienna. the bellows airgun had disappeared by
the late 1800's, yet a few appear to have been made as late as the 1870's.

Another design that appeared on the scene around 1600 was the spring piston
gun, with several variations of springs used in their operation. From the
zigzag shape to the helical coil spring (much like what is used today in
modern spring piston airguns), again a ratchet device is used to pump or
crank the spring into a compressed position when loaded, then released by a
trigger sear or unlatching mechanism. By the first part of the 19th century
the spring piston gun had established it's elf through out Europe as an
indoor target weapon. By the mid 1800's this airgun had found it's way to
the New World in the indoor shooting galleries becoming very popular as a
great past-time sport. Usually found in .25 to .30 caliber, smooth bores
intended to shoot darts. As time and weapons improved they were placed into
a number of classes for competition, from small caliber - smooth bore to the
larger caliber - rifled and so on. There were manufactures of weapons with
names we all remember like Quackenbush, Daisy, Atlas, Markham/King and many
others, some have survived, others are history.

The pump pneumatic gun has been worked on by inventors since the early
1600's, with a number of mechanism designs that were so involved that the
system developed slowly when compared to the other systems mentioned. The
size ranged from .30 to .68 caliber bores - smooth and rifled, meaning that
a large volume of compressed air was needed in a large reservoir to produce
pressures from a few hundred pounds per square inch to several thousand
pounds per square inch. Not only deadly at the muzzle but also at the
reservoir area. This much pressure would fire a .40 caliber lead ball, 40
times without resupplying the reservoir and equal a 35 grains of FFG black
powder per shot, able to penetrate 2 1/2" into a hardpine board. This was
duplicated a few years ago with one of these early air rifles and found to
produce each shot with 750 PSI, that's impressive, no wonder the L&C members
wanted to have one of these along to show the Natives their "Spirit Gun".

There are a number of other manufacturers from other parts of the world that
have had success with the airgun, for example an Austrian firm using a
design by Bartolemeno Girandoni in 1779 made weapons that ranged from .40 to
.52 caliber in bore and capable of firing 15 to 20 rounds within a minute by
a gravity feed magazine. "When you figure that a group of armed men, 500 in
number could fire approximately 100,000 rounds per hour, meaning they would
have 5 times the firepower of many troops with flintlocks muskets, at 100
yards this is amazing," says author J.T.Haynes.

Now you can see why the airgun was condemned by Napoleon and other leaders
being targeted by the Austrian Army in the late 1700's, even the Church of
Rome condemned the Austrian rifle. "Poachers, assassins and other
undesirables were portrayed", Mr. Haynes says, "as the likely users of these
weapons, tools of the Devil."

For power of these guns, Louis VII Landgrave of Hesse (1691-1768) used a big
bore air rifle to kill 500 lb. stag elk at ranges of 150 to 160 paces in
1746-1748. On our continent the journals of Lewis and Clark expedition
(1804-1806) show their big bore pneumatic rifle, made in Philadelphia by
Jacob Kunz and Issaih Lukens, capable of 40 full power shots at 900 PSI with
a 1,000 pump strokes for raised pressure. This .31 caliber rifle had a 34"
octagon barrel of brass with 17 groove rifling and needed no patching as the
ball to barrel rifling was so close with the shallow rifling, making a snug
fit. They used it to show the Indians of their power in taking small game up
to deer in size, this had to astonish the onlookers. As late as the 1890's
we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks
and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber with 500-750 FPS velocities
capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards.

This information came from many resources: J.T.Haynes, "Airguns Throughout
History", C.D.Hamilton, "Silent Killers", James W. Harrom, "History of Air
Rifles", Permission from "Beeman Precision Airgun Guide".

Thank You for your time.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark


> sure were air guns with lewis and clark and they were fairly large bore
> we had a discussion on this same subject about a year and a half
> ago---and all the info on them came out---just went thru my old messages
> on this computer dont have it here but i have pictures of them
> somewhere---that someone sent me---I wanter to build one at one time but
> due to work load and time have not accomplished it there are several guys
> on this list that have the info if they are still around---if they dont
> post it i will try to recover the info and send it to you---look first in
> the inventory of the discovery trip---believe it will give you a listing
> there---
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> & "The Arkansas Underhammers"
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600 "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
> writes:
> > A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed
> > air gun
> > with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a
> > lead
> > ball.
> >
> > I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this?
> >
> > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>


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