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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #919 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, January 2 2002 Volume 01 : Number 919 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: new years regards -áááááá MtMan-List: Thanks -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Stitching -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please -áááááá MtMan-List: Another use for Beaver -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -áááááá MtMan-List: WA hunting reports -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AMM -áááááá MtMan-List: Horse Packing Revisited -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- -áááááá MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:19:52 -0700 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: new years regards Friends and brothers- Hope the upcoming year is a good one to all in your lodge, here is a nice passage from Warren Ferris, which he wrote on December 31st, 1833: "So ends the year 1833, but let it pass in silence to oblivion, with the thousands that have gone before, and must hereafter follow it. Its hopes, its fears, its expectations can no longer excite or agitate; its perils, and privations, are already half forgotten; and even the severe disappointments it produced, have entirely lost the ability to disturb. Well! With all its imperfections on its head, let it descend to the dark void of by-gone eternity, and we older if not wiser, will again look forward with eager curiosity, to the events which yet slumber in the bosom of another, with wishes that will probably prove to be vain, with hopes that may be destined to experience disappointments and with expectations that doubtless doomed to be blasted, but which are all, notwithstanding their frailty and uncertainty, cherished with fondness, perhaps folly." Life in the Rocky Mountains, p. 310. mike. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:08:38 -0700 From: "sunmac" <sunmac@bigfoot.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks To all that gave their knolege and helped this poor wantabe hunter , may your hunt be the best and the beavers prime. Thank ye again. mac One should endeavor to never bleed on ones hobbies. > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:48:05 -0700 From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching Dick, As has been noted, artificial sinew isn't even remotely period. A good period substitue is linen thread. You can get a spool from a saddle shop that will last your whole buckskinning career. Oh, and the stitches are both correct. If you use a running stitch with a welt, the threads are concealed and not as likely to get snagged and broken in the bushes..... Good luck. Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:52:53 -0600 From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching <html> What about a saddle stitch. You know, where you use 2 needles, and pass the needles back and forth creating effectively a double-running stitch? I've used it with a welt on my shooting bags, and haversacks, since it's a TOUGH seam. The welt covers the stitches so that there's no wear on them. Downside, it DOES make a pretty thick seam that will rub, if not pounded flat. I have not however, had a chance to look at any originals to see what style of stitch was used. Todd Missouri Territory At 03:37 PM 12/31/01 -0500, you wrote: <blockquote type=3Dcite cite>In a message dated 12/31, C.Kent writes in responce to Dick: << ----(stuff deleted)---- Both are correct. =A0I think the whip stitch is stronger and I like it for seams. =A0It makes a seam that will rub...but you can mash the seam flat with the back of your hawk or a machine hammer for that matter. ----(stuff deleted)---- >> I would agree on the whip stitch, plus I would whip along the entire seam and then repeat in reverse along the seam agian. =A0Just my thoughts.=20 L<font= size=3D4>ongshot </blockquote> </html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 01:17:23 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please He' Nauga, I really don't know what to do about the conflict of info. The way I see it is there is real or primary documents and original specimens to study, and on the other hand there is opinion and supposition. I quess the only thing you can do is offer people the historical facts and let people do what they will. The Modena rifle you mentioned is dated probably 1840's or early fifties. The silver inlay on the cheekrest states,"Purchased St. Louis 1833 Mariano Modena Gen. A. H. Jones Big Thompson Colo. 1878. As you read the engraving, you will note this was added to the rifle in 1878. That's one reason I question the plausibility of this rifle being made in 1833. This 1833 purchase may have been Gen. Jones supposition from Mariano's statement about when he went to the mountains. On page 34 of Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History" you will find a drawing of a Hawken owned by Edwin T. Denig, factor of Ft. Union. This drawing was done in 1851 by Rudolf F. Kurz. So in 1851 Kurz sees a rifle of very similar style and furnishings as the Modena rifle. Another interesting article I found in an old Muzzle Blasts, May 1978,entitled"the Quandry of the Fraternal Twins" by Lt. Col. Vaughn K. Goodwin, that covers the fullstock Hawken in the Smithsonian collection and the Kennett rifle in the museum of the Ozarks. It goes into minute detail discribing these Late full stock Hawkens. By late I mean after the rendezvous period. I hope you can find a copy, they are beautiful specimens. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:asking for info please >Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:35:13 EST > >In a message dated 12/31/01 1:51:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, >dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Nauga, Hawk, and Mike, I think we have a misunderstanding. I never >said, > "No Hawken ever went to a rondyvoo."Nor do I agree with such a statement. >I > said or at least meant for people on this list to understand is, the late > S.Hawken style rifle that the Great Plains Rifle tries to emulate, never >saw > a rondesvous. >> > >No misunderstanding. I understood what you said & agree, but there are >others who don't & my comment was to point out there ARE others who haven't >studied the subject & spout half truths like were printed in the past by >not >so reputable individuals who made the rash statements "No Hawkins or >percussion locks at Rendezvous". Your statement was entirely correct if we >go by Hanson's date (1849) on when Sam changed his barrel stamp. At >Beard's >date (1836), there may have been some early "S. Hawkins" make it to >Rendezvous in '37 & '38. I was looking for the date associated with the >Modina rifle, but was unable to find it. That could have shed some light >on >the subject because it was a late style. OK, now how do we deal with this >conflict of information? > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 01:30:01 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Another use for Beaver Howdy Fellas, Life in the Rocky Mountains, Ferris talks about a survival situation where "One or two individuals, anticipating the total absence of any stream or spring on the route, had providently supplied themselves with beaver skins of water,.....". I guess anything will work in a pinch. Don _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:16:52 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please MIKE MOORE pard sure would like a copy of your documentation for my records on hawkens of the 6 in 1834 and the 10 in 1836 and 10 in 1837---my original i have was owned by seth rupp and then passed to his son manard rupp and them to me in 1960---I had it freashed by bill large in 1979 and then have been shooting it ever since it was a .510 when i got it but now is a .535---made a lot of meat with the old big gun---the gun was bought in the mountains not from st louisexactly where i dont know---but that is all the actual history and background i can fully establish---If i knew wher the 8 and the 2 10's were sold i might be able to link it to my gun---just a slim chance of course--- any info you might have would be appreciated-- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 23:58:43 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: WA hunting reports Klahowya boys, Just a heads up.... For all of you that hunted in Washington State this year, it is now required that everyone submit a report, by January 31st, 2002. Even if you didn't make meat, or didn't even hunt, if you got a tag, you must submit a report to the below web site. If you don't....ya can't hunt this year in Washington....which is OK, cause there ain't many critters here anyway. <A HREF="http://www.fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/">WADFW: License Sales</A> My buddy, with a straight face, asked the license lady for an elephant tag this year. The lady, with a straight face, sez "there ain't no elephants in Washington, sir". My buddies sez... "You sell elk tags right?" she sez "yes" He sez....."Well, there ain't no elk in Washington...sell me an elephant tag!" For some reason, I thought that was funny...even when she told us to leave.... All have a happy New Year, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:08:10 -0700 From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please Michael, Mr. Hanson lists the Chouteau papers (probably in the St. Louis Hist.Society's records), Y8; Z13-15, Z158, Z298 for his source on this information. I got it from the "Book of Buckskinning V", where you can see the entire article. Another person to talk to is Gail Potter at the Museum of the Fur Trade gdpotter@prairieweb.com , she is the current director and might even be able to contact Charlie himself or give you the full run down on it. I also have the same rifle in percussion (.54). I bought it first at a local gun shop, and put the word out that I was looking for the same in flint. Well, it didn't take long to find a friend which had one in his closet and hadn't shot it for about seven years. Anyway, I hope this helps with finding more info on the orignal. You have quite a piece there! I have a old Lancaster from 1838, like you I'm sure each gun ahs some good stories to tell if it could talk. This one of mine is about .43 with a back action lock on it. I use it at alot of demos and let people hand it. Nothing in the world like hefting a well used old gun to the shoulder. mike. hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > MIKE MOORE > pard > sure would like a copy of your documentation for my records on hawkens of > the 6 in 1834 and the 10 in 1836 and 10 in 1837---my original i have was > owned by seth rupp and then passed to his son manard rupp and them to me > in 1960---I had it freashed by bill large in 1979 and then have been > shooting it ever since it was a .510 when i got it but now is a > .535---made a lot of meat with the old big gun---the gun was bought in > the mountains not from st louisexactly where i dont know---but that is > all the actual history and background i can fully establish---If i knew > wher the 8 and the 2 10's were sold i might be able to link it to my > gun---just a slim chance of course--- > > any info you might have would be appreciated-- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > & "The Arkansas Underhammers" > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 00:44:12 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- guys been a student and studied hawken rifles many years---started about 1960 ---argued with john beard till i was blue in the face---got to fondel quite a few originals in my time----even shoot a couple --got to admire art russel's fakes he passed off as originals---Be it a know fact hawkens canot be dated by the stamps as there are at least 6 different hawken stamps i know of and have rubbings of--- there is w. hawken---both stamp and in script there is J & S hawken stamp there is just the word Hawken stamp there is 3 different s. hawken stamps 1.one with a pointed w 2. one with a standard w 3. one with a nicked N and a short s (NOTE---i did not address hawken spelled with a S IE HAWKENS) and there was one copy out there that bill large was using and stamping guns for art russel-----"Arts originals"----it was a splash off the one that J. P. Gemner used after he bought out the hawken shop---art russel borrowed the original stamp and took a cerablem splash off of the gemner hawken stamp (I have one of the cerablem impressions ) and art russel had a company in st louis (cosco graphics) make a copy of it and he sent it to bill large to stamp some barrels for him with-saying to bill he was only trying to recreat a good hawken likeness--and most of the originals art had were stamped with that stamp---original hawkens---NO---custom made guns YES---I believe i even know the guy who made a couple of them--- there was also a hawken in american rifleman---a fancy one---that john beard wrote about as a new found hawken---BS----(GBG)--the gun was made by chuck pengry in 1970 and was a forged barrel that bill large stamped and recut for him---I called john when i saw the article and boy did we get into a heated discussion---note in the article he says (john beard) there was some replacement parts on the gun---ther sure was all of them including the wood--- now william hawken and christipher hawkens were out there---christipher made a bunch of hawken rifles ---and about 1/2 were stamped S. Hawken---not C. Hawken----if i am not mistaken several of his denver guns were stamped S.Hawken as were his st louis guns---in 1858 william S. hawken was building guns and guess what he marked his S. Hawken not W. S. Hawken---his stamp was one of the ones above noted ---most of the fancy hawkens were made by tristan campbell not s. hawken nut were sold by the hawken shop---who was one of the workers in the hawken shop--- who made original hawken rifles---guys there was a bunch of people who worked for the hawken shop---look at the tax rolls in st louis(Just for a start) ---at the people they had working---solid documentation---because a average man can only make about 1 gun a month and that is pushing it---that means that in the time span involved if jake and sam were working---there would have been only about a total of 300 guns with the hawken stamp---yet from shipping records and tax recors and from the shops logs hawken not only made guns they did a large repair business---so a average would have been no more than 10 a year max for each---and thats without having to deal with customers----gets murkey dont it guys--- now lets get even deeper and relly stur the pot---now to see some real original hawkens jefferson barrix has a few---and those bear 3 different hawken stamps---I have rubbings from them in my records wish we had ed white on this foreum---believe he has gone to the big maker---he took john and art russel both to task a many a time over hawken rifles just as i did---and the stunts they were trying to pull---John wanted to establish a standard hawken gun for the fur trade and art wanted to make money from the hawken name and slide in john beards coat tail------John beard was very bias on what he thought and considered a real Hawken rifle was---or a fur trade era hawken should be---hanson was probably the only real unbias person that told john how it relly was---and john never listened and neither did art---and hanson also knew the real facts and documented info just as i do and we talked about it several ocasions---wish doc baker was around as he was another one who knew his facts and just as myself had a bunch of pictures of originals and had fondeled a bunch of them---now for a good hawken copy try---bob reeves---he's dead now---sam could have not made a better hawken rifle--- so now are we all confused---what exactly is a fur trade period hawken---how can we establish a date on them---darn tough---almost impossible unless you track a individual rifle---believe there is only 5 or 6 hawkens that can be tracked all the way back to the time they were made thru all their owners------I know of 4 of those--- one is in england---they have the original shipping papers on it --- a person in st louis i know owns one--- and 2 others i know of???? and we didnt even talk about the flat breach hawken and the slant breach hawken and we also didnt get into the different triggers and trigger guards or the different butplates were there hawken in the rockey mountains during the fur trade---YES made by ??????---Jake , sam , william christipher---tyrone--hoffman,---campbell--- who knows???only the original makers were the hawken rifle barrels forged---billet ---cast steel ???? that went west during the fur trade period-----Yes---No Yes and possibly all the above--- were all hawken rifles that went west ---50 cal or above and 1-48 twist----NO NO on both questions--- what is the proper hawken for the fur trade period---as hanson would have said---boy do we have a worm pile now--- and we didnt even get into the different spelling for hawken rifles--- hawken and hawkens?????? bet i have relly mudded the water now--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 01:52:38 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- In a message dated 1/1/2 11:18:10 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: <<that john beard wrote about as a new found hawken-->> Right - there is no "S" on the true Hawken stamp and the author, John . . . spells his name Baird. There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the graving goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up as authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive then) from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a "true piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. Sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 02:02:51 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Frank Hi, cuz . . . Good to see your name on the screen again. It seems like a while. Enjoyed your comments pro and con on AMM. They have good goals, are based on fine ideals, and have a few bragadocios. Trouble is . . . these can be more noticable than the quality people just because of the noise they make. Its good to know you have the skills of discernment to separate the two extremes. Best wishes for this new year. Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 06:17:56 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Horse Packing Revisited Not to long ago we were discussing methods of tying loads onto pack stock and I have found something to add. Mr Landry may have referred to this and I was just to thick headed for it sink in. In reading Ewers Horse and the Blackfeet, which was so kindly given to me fer Christmas, he goes into detail about the blackfeet and other plains tribes use of pack horses. I know we have to be careful about assuming that the RMFT adopted things from the Indians but this one was some merit. Anyway they made a parfleshe or piece of rectangular rawhide that was folded similar to an envelope, bottom, then top, then both sides. This was then tied shut with laces that were built in. When ready to load up he showed two ways that were documented to attach to the horse. One, refered to as ôCrowö style, used rope loops that were pre-attached to the top of the parfleshe that were then dropped over their version/s of the pack saddle similar to a pannier. The other way had only small loops built into the parfleshe at the top and the bottom vertically and center of it horizontally. A strap was then run around saddle , horse and load, and then tied tight to hold it all on. Wonder how the latter would work? The strap could be the one that Mr Landry referred to. RMFT could have traded for similar equipment or camp keepers made them or substituted comercial leather for the rawhide. Ferris refers to their goods being protected by leather I believe. Anyway, perhaps some food for thought. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:03:25 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- > There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name > engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the graving > goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the > engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up as > authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive then) > from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted? > (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and > wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a "true > piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up. > > Sincerely > Richard James It's really too bad that there are so many Con Artists out there that will try and age horns, fake 'hawks, engrave a good Hawken and say it is original, etc... For a beginner, you have to be REAL careful who you buy stuff from and have a fairly decent knowledge of what really is what, and how things can be aged... CrookedHand did me a horn and aged it... damn if it don't look 200 years old... Even with my name on it, I could still pass it off as belonging to my g-g-g grandfather as the name is a family tradition going back MANY generations... Regards Ad Miller Alderson, WV - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:48:03 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens--- There is a purported "original" Hawken rifle on display at the Clymer Museum of Art in Ellensburg, WA. It could be an "undocumented" original gun. It is on loan from the widow of the owner. The barrel is stamped with the Hawken logo, but I don't remember which one. I talked to the museum director briefly to try and find out more about it. Since her forte' is art, she knew absolutely nothing about the gun other than what the widow told her. Because of time constraints, I wasn't able to gain access to it, or take any photographs. It is in a glass case and only the lock side is visible. I gather that the deceased owner of the gun was a wealthy benefactor of the museum and that the gun could have been in his possession for many years. I think it would be a real boon for someone who is knowledgeable in these guns to try and arrange a close examination of it. Perhaps Buck Conner or some of you other guys who travel a bit. Once the widow passes away, any prior knowledge about the gun will probably be lost, and it could end up somewhere in an estate auction and be lost to the public. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:28:06 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? If anyone has the inclination to try to understand what and what was not said via this discussion group they may click on the address at the bottom of every posting to reveiw what is secured in the archives. Of course those with lessor integrety may/will try to delete all that was said as govts. do shred evidence. When someone says OUR in reference to their communities football team do they imply they are on the team? If someone says OUR church, in a community/town that only has one church, does that imply they are a member? When I said OUR brigade, is it possible that being from Montana and proud of the fact, that I could have been refering to OUR Brigade in the same manner? In veiw of the constant EXTRASENSITIVTY and ABSURD OVERSENTIVE comeback remarks posted on this site, why would anyone want to post their true idenity? Thus has it occured to anyone that Clint Garrett may be derived from Clint Black and Pat Garrett? As it has been posted, no one has found Clint Garrett in the databases. As for my idenity, if it happens to arouse someone's curosity and they think I am another citizen on the planet; it was never my intention to cause any greif for anyone resembling Clint Garrett. AND NO, TRUTHFULLY CLINT IS NOT MY NAME, FOR THE RECORD. Why would any member want my address anyway? Am I the noble canidate to receive an ANTHRAX LETTER from a AMM member or a carload of goons at my door? I think we need to Question Brotherhood here? I have a deep respect for those whom live the AMM lifestyle, I said LIVE. As it has been explained as well as in print on the AMM site PARTLY, the evolution of AMM. In it's infancy it was a modern survivevalist organization not revolutionaries against the state mind you. The founder, a man with a name like a protected bear in Montana changed it to escape harrassment by the feds when the contempt for survivalists was running amuck. In doing so the snooty types as well as purists and hardcores found a vent to further their(and mine)obsessions in regards to the current "buckskin craze". As many of the old ones have continued the torch as you see men of 60, 70, and hopefully beyond whom keep evolving and challenge us as 'greybeards' the younger aspiring skinners. They, thease giants whom have continued to grow are the icons whom trully exemplify AMERICAN MOUNTAIN MEN. While others by their infantile emotional reponses in discussion/debate as well as their compromises in the AMM lifestyle reflect to others that there are many whom reseble if not trully are AMANDA'A MUFFIN MAIDS. I mean we all can read books and it is important to do so. We all can make costumes and duplicate artifacts of the pre 1840 period. But to trap, hunt, and prosper from the land is another story. Some have in my breif post history inferred that the reservation indian has no weight in credibility; thus they have little contact with him. Even though he has been altered by govt. policy and a different social is he worth knowing and should AMM or buckskiners interact with them? Seems as I have read all trappers had some interaction with them as in the documents of which many worship as Jed's 66 he caried. This is my last post under this name. in veiw of the clashes with many whom resemble AMANDA'S MUFFIN MAIDS I will post under another name or names and deviate from my style. Those of you whom seek the higher vision, as i trully beleive everyone here trully does, i hope will continue to 'bronze' into AMERICAN MOUNTAIN MEN. Those others much of myself included, will have to yeild to critism and scrunity or else they will remain in their illusions and 'ivory tower' status. By that i mean there are a few whom react as if they have their PHD. and are the total authorities on the info while others suck up to them for fraternal security and political protection within the AMM( whether AMERICAN or AMANDA'S). To all of you whom seek the trail, CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him) P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for the good of all of us. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:39:50 -0700 From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 10:08 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please > Michael, > Mr. Hanson lists the Chouteau papers (probably in the St. Louis > Hist.Society's records), Y8; Z13-15, Z158, Z298 for his source on > this information. I got it from the "Book of Buckskinning V", where you > can see the entire article. Another person to talk to is Gail Potter at > the Museum of the Fur Trade gdpotter@prairieweb.com , she is the current > director and might even be able to contact Charlie himself or give you > the full run down on it. - ---------------------------------- Mike, if Gail can contact Charley I would like to know how - because I'll market it on TV and be wealthy over night. He passed on to the other side a few years ago, see tribute. - ---------------------------------- Tribute to a Friend In memory of Charles E. Hanson, Jr. by Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Friend to all that met him and a personal friend for over 25 years, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has passed away as of Wednesday the 4th of February, 1998. A native of Nebraska, an engineer, a spokesman, writer, museum director and one of the best researchers known for his work on the Fur Trade in North America and other parts of the world. He has traveled extensively between continents in his intensive quest for accurate details of this period. His documented work and collections are respected world wide, considered as one of the most knowledgeable people for the era; one of the few true experts on the Northwest gun. He was a good listener and a natural in any setting when talking about American History. His relationships with countless collectors, historians, librarians and museum personnel in going over records, journals and collected pieces has made it possible for everyone to enjoy this work through his writings and pictures, that otherwise only a few would have had access to. His exhaustive study of all aspects of this chapter in our history has uncovered information that had been lost for decades, now recorded in his many articles in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quartiles, his publications and books authored by him, now saved and studied by students of the Fur Trade, as well as the general public. A list of his contributions to the "buckskinner" movement is endless, a life member of the National Muzzle-Loading Rifle Association, a Charter member of the Buckhorn Skinners of Loveland, CO and the American Mountain Men are but just a few of his affiliations. His wife Marie has devoted hours of her time, being indispensable in assembling the manuscripts, making revisions necessary to insure consistency and accuracy, his sons have given support and valuable assistance in his many projects. A true family endeavor in bringing to life a missing part of a lost chapter in our history, and they still continue on with their research at the Museum with the help of the staff. A true to life dwelling now restored behind the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, Nebraska, "Bordeaux's Trading Post" is available to the public for viewing because of his efforts to show what living conditions were like for a European in a new world. To visit this post with him was a treat to walk back into history and vision what adventure lay at your doorstep with the rising of the sun on each day. Many have found in doing research they will come to a point that they are stalled with not knowing which way to continue. A letter to the Museum or a call would put Charles on the problem and in short order he had his students moving on, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, as he would say. I have found that this help was not only to friends, but to a stranger soon to become a friend of Charles E. Hanson, Jr. and the Museum of the Fur Trade. I first met Charley in the mid 60's at the "Antique Gun Collectors Show" at Colfax and Broadway in Denver, CO in the old VFW Hall, he was talking to Jack Lewis, a world known antique gun collector and trader from Ohio. I had known Jack from a few years before, as my father was really into pre Civil War items and had dealings with Mr. Lewis several times. They were discussing a gatling gun at the door into the hall, it was serial number NO. 1 , in new condition and just a beauty per Charley. He stroked that gun like it was one of his kids, Jack introduced me to Mr. Hanson and that was the being of a long friendship. Over the years as time would allow with work and home life, I would call and have Charley make a reservation for a few nights at a friend's motel then slip away to Chadron and walk back into a different time zone. The Fur Trade was alive and well at Charley and Marie's house, sometimes a few friends would tag along or my Dad, sometimes I would make the trip from Denver alone. Either way the closer I got the faster I would drive, wanting as much time as possible to spend freezing my feet in mid winter looking at the many items on display, really didn't matter which case we were viewing, just being there was the best part. Charley would come out of the office and ask us to come in and get warm, no heat in the building other than his office when the museum was closed to the public. We would sit around him and ask questions and he would disappear for a moment then return with a book for reference and we would discuss the subject for hours. Then as our voices got softer with lack of moisture, Marie would appear from no wear, carrying a coffee pot, cups and home made pumpkin bread, or pumpkin cookies, or pumpkin rolls or pumpkin ............. whatever. She would tell us each time that this happened, that living in this country, the only thing she could grow was pumpkins and more pumpkins. "Marie could make anything one can think of with pumpkin" Charley would say as we all agreed, and damn good too. We knew she was having fun with us, we had been there enough to see the period garden and other projects these two had tried in that ground. Over the years I have called on Charley for information on articles that I would be writing or to get his opinion on how to make something, or the availability of an item for such and such or a place and time. He was always there with an answer and if he did not know, would do a little digging in his wonderful library and send you the information. He provided this type of service for thousands of students of the fur trade over the years, and half the time never even got a "thank you". We used to tell him to charge for his knowledge or his resources, he would just laugh and say something like "I enjoy helping" or "I don't want to turn anyone away". The cost of postage alone would make most people stop the service, but Charley and Marie would just keep going ahead with doing their thing and never complain. In the 70's when the Wounded Knee problem started to the north of Chadron, word got out after several of the kids from the reservation took items from their museum and sold them for booze on the west coast. They were going to come down to the Museum of the Fur Trade and do the same thing, the town folks got ready to defend the Museum until the National Guard got the OK to get involved. I was up at the Museum the next week, back in the library with Charley. Down one aisle was an old 92 Winchester leaning against the shelves, Charley remarked it was loaded as were several others within the building. He was ready to handle what needed to be done, if needed. I bet those kids would have had more than "wounded knees" if they came into Charlie's place and started trouble, that old boy would have filled their shorts with some hot lead from one of those old 44/40's. Seems everytime we were at Charley and Marie's, they would have a fur trade story or two to tell us, their research never ended and some of the funny stories are priceless that they could tell, I will give you a few examples. A Count or Duke that came over from Europe to hunt in the New World, he had as the first thing on his schedule, hire a guide, experienced in the wilderness and able to handle a party of gentlemen on a hunt, a person was found and a deal was made. In the arrangement the guide was to receive a trade gun for part of his payment, the agreement was completed and the local got his smoothbore. Before leaving the guide had a sight-in for his employers and a chance to try his new gun. To make the story short, he finds his trade gun does not shoot to point of aim, removes the barrel wraps it in a blanket and puts one end in the crouch of a tree and leans on it a touch. He then assembles his gun, while his employers watch in disbelief, this is repeated several times until it shoots to his satisfaction. Near the end of the hunting trip the guide has out shot his employers and one gentlemen tries to trade the guide out of the smoothbore. ╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖ Another story told of a English trader, who would make his rounds to different Indian villages on the Canadian border near Montreal and down to Rochester, N.Y, visiting each settlement about every other year as a normal practice. One of his trade items, guns, along with the usual other trade goods, picked up from sources in Canada. As time pasted on, replacement arms were always needed, missions where being set up and Indians were being taught to read and more trade was going on with others in the area. On one of his visits to a village he found that only a few guns were needed and the trade went poorly, upon looking around he discovered a young Indian was reading a paper on the repairs of a lock and had the needed parts for the repair in a small kit supplied by another trader. Up to this point selling arms was considered not dangerous, because they would break and be thrown away, but now with the knowledge to repair them, there is danger with the natives having arms. "God what have we done, created demons", was this gentlemen's first remark about his find. ╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖╖ The stories that friends of these two could tell would fill a dozen pages and then some, may God take care of Marie, we know he's already looking out for Charley. If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together. Its Sublette, Williams, Smith, Bridger, the Bent's, Russell and others of by-gone years relaxed and enjoying each others company, right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together. On the edges of the light are a mixture of French, Crow, Blackfeet, Shoshoni, Assiniboin and others of mixed nationalities at peace with themselves and their brothers around them, equipage of the Fur Trade, bales of fur, plews stretched on willow hoops, horses grazing and several dogs lying among these men. In the foreground stands Miller and Catlin watching as Bodmer sketches this setting, a Frenchmen plays softly on a Jaw harp while several Native women tend to camp duties. This is a life time dream of ours and our friend, may this scene be replayed night after night, and may we join as our time draws near. God Bless you Charles E. Hanson, Jr., and continue on with your research in the most proper manner, now first hand or as your friends around that camp fire would say, "right from the horses mouth", we will miss you. God Bless both of you. - -------------------------------- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #919 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.