Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
Clint, or whoever you will be next time,
>P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for
>the good of all of us.
Please don't bother. It's not for the good of all.
Allen
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:01:49 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
> There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name
> engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the
graving
> goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the
> engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up
as
> authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive
then)
> from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted?
> (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and
> wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a
"true
> piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up.
>
> Sincerely
> Richard James
- ------------------------------------
Dick,
This happens all the time, I've seen Goose Bay Workshops old copper/brass
kettles (ones without his new stamp) being sold in an antique shops at twice
the price, darn near bought an "original" Gremmer Sharps until I did closer
looking and found a few thread sizes that didn't fit for American - was an
excellent antiquing job. Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an
Spanish repro of a "CSA" marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised it
turnout to be a phony that he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85,
several of us told him to have it checked before jumping - oh well.
Had a couple of native Americans (that I was housing) a few years ago -
craftsman of good to better quality items, always late with the rent but had
money for boozes. After a year of putting up with them and they moved on a
friend from a local museum called trying to find these boys, seems they had
sold several museums in the Denver area some faked antiques, never found
them from the last I heard.
The stories of this stuff is everywhere with real skilled craftsman that can
make anything old with their skills, I met a guy that had done time for
these skills, he now works at the Denver Art Museum in repairing old items -
figure that one?
You better know what your looking at when your going to spend serious money
on an antique items anymore.
Later
Buck.
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:17:55 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: re: hawkens
Richard James said,
< People just want to believe they have found a "true
piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up.>
Very true Richard, its a human failing fired by greed.
I once 'built' a short Ky. style flinter from an H&A kit. I sorta olded
it up by using brown Kiwi shoe polish for stock finish, made the barrel
browning very deep and rough, added some brass tacks and what all. To anyone
with any old gun knowledge it was an obvious recent made fence post with a
barrel.
After a couple years of knocking around I traded it to a friend who was
a bit of a gun trader. He took it to a gun show. While there some "expert"
came by his table and started carrying about this fine old 'original' rifle.
My friend, being honest, told him it was a recent made thing. The guy tried
to educate him about how he knew it was original. As the [eventual] buyer
carried on my friend kept raising the price. Eventually he let Mr.
Know-it-all buy the thing at a grossly inflated price.
That character resold it at a profit and today it hangs proudly over a
bar in Wisconsin, where "everyone knows" it is an original. Owner claims it
was built by some old timer in the Arkansas Ozarks. I guess that part is
accurate. :-)
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
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:
> > There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name
> > engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the
> graving
> > goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the
> > engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up
> as
> > authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive
> then)
> > from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted?
> > (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and
> > wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a
> "true
> > piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up.
> >
> > Sincerely
> > Richard James
>
Dick
I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well
and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out
of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to think it's
legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 for it
back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the street
that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are phonies
too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would think he
knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade guns, traps
and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won the best
of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. I wish I
could own such Junk.
Crazy Cyot
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">> There is a guy in Logan Utah that displays a "true" Hawken with the name
<BR>> engraved in script on the top flat of the barrel. Interestingly the
<BR>graving
<BR>> goes right over the top of several pits that are deeper and older than the
<BR>> engraving. This same guy showed me a pipe tomahawk he had just picked up
<BR>as
<BR>> authentic. I recognized it as on of Robert Kern's (he was still alive
<BR>then)
<BR>> from Ligoner, Penna. - a sand casting - and asked him how many he wanted?
<BR>> (He paid $125 for his "original") Robert was retailing them for $4 and
<BR>> wholesale for 50% off. People just want to believe they have found a
<BR>"true
<BR>> piece of the original cross" with every stick they pick up.
<BR>I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to think it's legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300 for it back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the street that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are phonies too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would think he knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade guns, traps and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won the best of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it. I wish I could own such Junk.
<BR>Crazy Cyot</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:46:44 EST
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
In a message dated 1/2/2002 11:44:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
doublelongspring@yahoo.com (Clint Garrett) writes: << >P.S. I will repeat
this message from time to time for the good of all of us. >>
Dear ClintWhoEverYouThinkYouMightBeButAdmittedlyArent... I slipped this time,
but thanks for again reminding me of the value of my DELETE button. I'll make
better use of it in the future. Since I did open your UNSOLICITED, DIRECT
MAIL to me, I have forwarded it to Dean Rudy, owner of this list.
Mining the AMM List for eMail addresses for your self-serving rhetoric is not
only in bad taste and bordering on unethical but is also improper use of the
List. I would request that you immediately remove this name from your
personal address book.
If you want to address me, do it onlist, not hiding behind private eMail like
you hide behind phony names; a trait not seen in any of the many AMM Brothers
I have had the pleasure to know. Thank You. Barn
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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 14:50:18 -0700
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please
Barry,
Your're right. It was late after a long day and I should of known
better. (As you and Pat S. have reminded me about the untimely
passing on of Charley). But, I never put anything pass a confirmed
historian- even if it is communicatng from beyond the grave.
I have quote on my fridge from Alice Hoffman:
"It is the deepest desire of every writer,
the one we never admit or even dare to speak of;
to write a book we can leave as a legacy.
And although it is sometimes easy to forget,
wanting to be a writer is not about reveiws or
advances or how many copies are sold.
It is much simplier than that, and more passionate.
If you do it right, and if they publish it,
you may actually leave something behind that can last forever."
Charley and all others do speak to us today, even from beyond.
People like Hafen, Chittenden, Sage, Ruxton and all the people
we love to read still live on in their writings. They pass on info
and give us a perpective which can not be done again. Heres to all
those men.
mike.
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:47:59 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
In a message dated 1/2/2 10:29:01 AM, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes:
<< . . . As many of the old ones have continued the torch as you see men of
60, 70 . . . >>
Pretty good letter until I got to the part that pointed out I was old. Dang!
reality.
Dick James
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:51:30 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
In a message dated 1/2/2 1:05:36 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes:
<<Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an Spanish repro of a "CSA"
marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised itturnout to be a phony that
he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85, . . . .>>
Ah - the price of an education these days.
Dick James
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:00:49 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
In a message dated 1/2/2 2:34:36 PM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes:
<<don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him Very well
and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade him out
of it. >>
I have known him for thirty years and I know he has some good stuff. When I
first heard the story he had written a letter to Charlie and sent him
pictures. Charlie told him from the pictures that the gun was probably real.
Charlie didn't see the engraving over the top of a much older set of rust
pits. The story gets better with time. I know he has one "original" Hawken
that was nothing more than the barrel and a piece of the forestock found out
west of the Ochre mountains here in Utah. He had a local riflesmith re-build
it complete from modern castings and such and now displays it as "for real".
He doesn't know that the statement of the re-build and the date is to be
found hidden under the new-stocked barrel.
Dick James
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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:21:21 -0500
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
Please, good sir, isn't there some other list
for you to enlighten and entertain?
Tom (yes, I really am)
Clint Garrett wrote:
> ........................
>
> To all of you whom seek the trail,
>
> CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him)
>
> P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for
> the good of all of us.
>
>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:54:43 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Moore" <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please
> Barry,
> Your're right. It was late after a long day and I should of known
> better. (As you and Pat S. have reminded me about the untimely
> passing on of Charley). But, I never put anything pass a confirmed
> historian- even if it is communicatng from beyond the grave.
I figured it must be paint fumes or lack of sleep Mike.
B.
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:55:55 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
Ain't that the truth.
Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SWzypher@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
>
> In a message dated 1/2/2 1:05:36 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes:
>
> <<Years ago I watched a "Mr. Know-It-All" buy an Spanish repro of a "CSA"
> marked model Colt 1860 - when it was appraised itturnout to be a phony
that
> he bought for $8500 and really worth about $85, . . . .>>
>
> Ah - the price of an education these days.
>
> Dick James
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:57:51 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Last bridge gone.
Like Mr. Roberts says Clint it's time to move on, you've burned all the
bridges here.
Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "tom roberts" <troberts@gdi.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
> Please, good sir, isn't there some other list
> for you to enlighten and entertain?
>
> Tom (yes, I really am)
>
>
>
> Clint Garrett wrote:
> > ........................
> >
> > To all of you whom seek the trail,
> >
> > CLINT GARRETT(but I'm not him)
> >
> > P.S. I will repeat this message from time to time for
> > the good of all of us.
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:07:51 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <conner_one@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
Dave,
"The more one thinks they have learned the less they really know" an old
Dutchman told me that when I opened my big mouth about a Spencer rifle one
time at a gun show in Lancaster PA back in the 60's. I made the remark about
cal. and year of manufacture and was off on both (damn Dixie Gun Works
Antique Catalog), that was my bible until I found out they didn't know
anymore than what I had found out from asking questions from collectors.
With the way things are doctored up today, it takes a real good collector to
not get cheated, I like some of the faked stuff - looks better than the real
thing sometimes. It's just the price that has to be worked around to pay for
the artist's skills. <GG>.
Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ThisOldFox@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
> There is a purported "original" Hawken rifle on display at the Clymer
Museum
> of Art in Ellensburg, WA. It could be an "undocumented" original gun. It
is
> on loan from the widow of the owner..........
>
> I think it would be a real boon for someone who is knowledgeable in these
> guns to try and arrange a close examination of it. Perhaps Buck Conner or
> some of you other guys who travel a bit............
>
> Dave Kanger
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:22:48 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: WA hunting reports
Brothers,
If you had any problems with the link below try this one:
http://www.fishhunt.dfw.wa.gov/ . Should take you right to the page that
offers you an opportunity to submit your report.
Good story about the elephant Magpie. <G>
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SWcushing@aol.com>
To: <ammlist@xmission.com>
Cc: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 8:58 PM
Subject: AMM-List: WA hunting reports
> Klahowya boys,
>
> Just a heads up.... For all of you that hunted in Washington State this
year,
> it is now required that everyone submit a report, by January 31st, 2002.
Even
> if you didn't make meat, or didn't even hunt, if you got a tag, you must
> submit a report to the below web site.
> If you don't....ya can't hunt this year in Washington....which is OK,
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:40:07 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitching
The real issue here is being lost in what are really minor technicalities
like what kind of thread you use. If you want to learn exactly how things
were then you must do them precisely as they were done in even the most
tedious element.
Not everything must be done to that punctilious standard to fulfill our
every function or to learn something worth knowing. It is important we
know how, it is important that at some point we do it exactly right without
compromise. Until then we can make do with what we've got to work with.
Linen thread is a compromise on braintan. Exactly right is sinew. Linen
happens to be more correct on soap tan (imitation braintan) than on real
braintan. Linen would be used more on settlement dressed hides - not all
settlement dressed hides were bark tanned, braintan deserves the very best
- -- sinew. This can get very involved and leads to some very loud
discussions around campfires. Everybody owns at least one large spool of
artificial sinew. Lousy thread, strong string, fuse the knots with heat to
prevent unraveling.
The real issue is: form follows function.
The stitch you use is best chosen based on the needed function regardless
of thread or material. The most noticeable difference in the two stitches
heretofore discussed is how they look when finished. That is a result of
how they lay. If you want a zig-zag looking finished seam; and neither
strength nor complete closure of the seam are issues then the simple
running stitch is adequate. If the seam would better lay flat to more
simulate butt-joining the edge then the whip stitch is the better
choice. Either stitch used with a welt better protects the thread and
strengthens the seam. This presupposes a turned seam similar
considerations apply to exposed finished seams.
These two basic stitches are the foundation for most of the sewing we
do. If the seam is better made to stand proud and strong and a uniform
straight look to the finished work is desired then the saddle stitch or the
doubled (sew to one end and then back) running stitch is the better
choice. If an edge must take wear and the work cannot be "turned" to
finish then a button hole stitch variation of the whip stitch may suit the
purpose. A rolled seam can provide additional welting strength and can
help shape the finished work. It and edge binding are generally stitched
with a variation of the running stitch; some specialized work may call for
courses of stitching to overlay. Think about what you are doing, its
needed function and then what will work best.
If you are making coats, shirts, leggings or pants it is pretty easy to sew
in a fringe panel as a welt. Be careful with fringe, way too much is way
too easy to achieve.
One other stitch not before mentioned, that I find useful, is the chain
stitch (like awl-for-awl tool). Long seams can be sewn more quickly;
particularly useful when binding edges. Variations found favor among sail
makers and millers, amongst many others. It is done with an awl which has
a thread hole near the point. The disadvantage (advantage to some
purposes) of a chain stitch (forerunner of a sewing machine stitch) is it
can unravel and open the seam from a single break in the thread.
I made my living, in years past, from the historic pattern business. I've
never used one of the patterns myself. I have no formal training in
sewing. The stuff is pretty simple, you look at it and make something like
it that fits you. They didn't have printed patterns.
To do it the old way -- do it the old way.
If you don't do it the old way you don't learn the old lessons.
The old way can be learned by stages, most people do.
Over time you will want to make at least one of every little thing you wear
or use in pursuit of your learning the old ways. Do the best you can with
what you presently have to work with and know; later you will know more to
better do it again.
Not everything you have now (or then) must be of your own manufacture: they
didn't back then; and then as now, if you use this stuff you use this stuff
up. You will find what you have a talent for, try and trade for better on
the other.
A single spool of 2 strand twist linen thread is sufficient for nearly all
leather sewing if you use a drop spindle to prepare thread lengths in
precisely the ply required by the work. If you try and work with too long
threads you will slow the work. How long are your arms? Proper waxing of
the thread can increase breaking strength 50%.
John...
At 03:48 AM 1/1/02, you wrote:
>Dick,
>
>As has been noted, artificial sinew isn't even remotely period. A good
>period substitue is linen thread. You can get a spool from a saddle shop
>that will last your whole buckskinning career.
>
>Oh, and the stitches are both correct. If you use a running stitch with a
>welt, the threads are concealed and not as likely to get snagged and broken
>in the bushes.....
>
>Good luck.
>
>Allen
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 03:01:21 EST
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
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Dick
You once more have proven to me your true nature. It sure is funny the
things you can come up with.
This good friend of yours has suffered a stroke and is not in very good
heath. I was working with him and his son to get he's collection to display
in the AMM display in Pinedale. But if it is all a bunch of B.S. as you say
?? Suppose his 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too.
Dick I think if you have any more to say about my friend you had better do it
off list to me. And we will dance off list.
Crazy
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2> Dick
<BR> You once more have proven to me your true nature. It sure is funny the things you can come up with.
<BR> This good friend of yours has suffered a stroke and is not in very good heath. I was working with him and his son to get he's collection to display in the AMM display in Pinedale. But if it is all a bunch of B.S. as you say ?? Suppose his 58 cal. Left handed hawkin pistol is B.S. too.
<BR>Dick I think if you have any more to say about my friend you had better do it off list to me. And we will dance off list.
<BR>Crazy
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:14:22 -0500
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: asking for info please
thanks buck---
couldnt be said any better about a outstanding person devoted to his life
quest---
nuff said---
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)
