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hist_text-digest      Saturday, December 22 2001      Volume 01 : Number 912



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá MtMan-List: blankets was canvas stuff
-áááááá MtMan-List: Horse Blanket
-áááááá MtMan-List: Merry Christmas from Indian Country!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing
-áááááá MtMan-List:  OT  --- Dove Season, etc. Comments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:19:14 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire

Lanney (I believe it was anyway) asked:
Just exactly what are your going to deep fry to impress your brothers??

I quote Ferris pg 98 in my version.  I am making it a little longer post
than needed but it is such good stuff.

The new year was ushered in with feasting and merriment, on dried
buffalo meat, and venison, cakes and coffee; which might appear to
people constantly accustomed to better fare, rather meagre variety for a
dinner, not to say a feast. But to us who have constantly in mind the
absolute impossibility of procuring better, and the no less positive
certainty, that we are often compelled to be satisfied with worse, - the
repast was both agreeable and excellent; for think not, that we enjoy,
daily, the same luscious luxuries of cake and coffee, that announces the
advent of 1834; by no means. Our common meals consist of a piece of
boiled venison, with a single addition of a piece of fat from the
shoulder of the buffalo; except on Sundays, when we have in addition a
kind of French dumpling, made of minced meat, rolled into little balls
enveloped with dough, and fried in the marrow of buffalo; which is both
rich and pleasant to the taste.



So either they deep fried in tin or carried cast and I would hate to
propose that. <G> I have experimented with these French dumplings a bit
and have a fair recipe that is only a little bit non period and I think
I could make it in camp except that I do not know about the deep frying
in tin on a fire.

Thanks  ôYÆallö for the help
Wynn Ormond



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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:20:18 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps

John R. Sweet quoted

"We then traveled that day about fifty milesand thought that we had got
clear
of the Indians. We camped on a beautiful stream, one of the tributaries
of
the Arkansas. During the nightwe had our best animals staked. We had
with us
a very watchful dog and during the nighthe kept continually barking. We
were
aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch... About an hour
after
we left, a large party of Indians charged the camp running off all the
loose
animals. Four men immediately mounted four of the best animals and
followed
and in a short time overtook the Indians and recaptured all of the
animals.
One of the four was severely wounded in the affray.  One Indian was
killed."
DEAR OLD KIT (from the "Autobiography of Kit Carson") p. 56-57.

John, the real question is, ôWere dogs good to have in camp.ö   With my
three quotes from Ferris and this one we have two that have the dogs
being helpful and two where they were scaring game away or attracting
unfriendlies.  That makes for a tie with jury still out.

Wynn Ormond



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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:16:31 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas

Gene,

I have just about everything that's been written about the Corps, I'll start
looking, when you mentioned this the old light came on - good job.  Remember
reading about oilskinned or oil bags, but couldn't remember where or which
book to look in, thanks.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas


> To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for
the
> Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference
> for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I
> know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate.
> However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of
> the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify
these
> purchases in it.
>
> "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June
> (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals.
He
> got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of
> oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he
> could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails
by
> day."
>
> Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen
> (tarps?) to set up for evening writing.
>
> YMOS
> Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:09:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

That's good that you belong to some group, but you already can no longer trap
on the public lands of Arizona.  Law have been made so restrictive that you
can no long trap in Colorado.  And many other states are in danger.  You help
save your state, but what of this great nation of ours.  The national assn.
helps us all.

                                                       Ridge Pole

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:14:21 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

Your right, while this list is honoring the trappers of old, the right to
keep and bear fire arms are also a part of that.  We are surrounded and keep
a guard at all points at all times.

                                                 Ridge Pole

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:26:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire

- --- Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]> ;
except on Sundays, when we
> have in addition a
> kind of French dumpling, made of minced meat, rolled
> into little balls
> enveloped with dough, and fried in the marrow of
> buffalo; which is both
> rich and pleasant to the taste.

Wynn, It sounds doable, just do real small batches and
leave about 4" of headspace in the boiler.  But they
may not have been "Deep" frying.  Could be you get
good results with about an inch of oil.  Another way
to make it safe is to fry on a small fire you feed
with coals from a larger fire kept a safe distance
away.  All those who suck their teeth and shake their
heads at your folly will just have to eat crow when
those morsels come out pipin hot and delicious. <VBG>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:27:45 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

Ridge Pole,
 It would seem that with the trapping rights being lost right & left, a
National group has little effect. Grassroots, local & state is the way to
win. National orgs. get spread way thin.
D

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and
zealots)


> That's good that you belong to some group, but you already can no longer
trap
> on the public lands of Arizona.  Law have been made so restrictive that
you
> can no long trap in Colorado.  And many other states are in danger.  You
help
> save your state, but what of this great nation of ours.  The national
assn.
> helps us all.
>
>                                                        Ridge Pole
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:53:05 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: blankets was canvas stuff

    some have quoted,
    <The blankets used by these travellers of the
> wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and
> almost impervious to water>
    Would these have compared to the 'horse rug' or 'buffalo blanket' made
by Whitney? As sold by:
    http://www.ocbtp.com/withors.html
    They look very useful and might make good coats.  But I am sure the
price today is very high compared to what it would have been 'back then'.
    BTW, I never would have suspected all the palaverin' that is happening
over canvas. I am not the hard-case must-be-100%-authentic type that some
are but I do recall that it is almost universally agreed that the use of
canvas in an RMFT camp is, in itself, a compromise.  We just don't have the
plains of head-high grasses everywhere nor can we kill an abundance of elk
and buff every couple days to provide fresh hides for an 'authentic lodge .
    I better get off this or my hide is liable to be used for something
other than its original intended purpose. :-)
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:40:20 -0800
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Horse Blanket

<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Frank,   I used a Whitney Horse Blanket to make my coat.  I made a short Capote, with a cape and collar rather than a hood.  The thick wool, cape,  and collar makes this a snug coat in the wind, rain or snow.   It being short (mid thigh) and no fringe, etc...makes it less cumbersome around camp.  I am pleased with this warm coat.   hardtack</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A></DIV>
<DIV>we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,</DIV>
<DIV>we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></BODY></HTML>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 23:02:49 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Merry Christmas from Indian Country!

Dear friends of the Fur Trade,
  Here's wishin' all of ya a very Merry Christmas and a Peaceful and
Prosperous New Year. We hope the Ol' Trickster, Sandy Claws, fills your
moccasins with plenty of plunder to share with family and friends.
  Luppitch Knewelch,
  Don, Darlene, and the girls



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:47:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire

In a message dated 12/22/2001 11:10:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I do not know about the deep frying in tin on a fire. >>

Would a small Copper boiler have the same problem of coming unsoldered as
Tin, or are there other problems as well?    Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 20:07:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

In a message dated 12/22/2001 10:51:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
<[e-mail]> writes:

<< ... that will get you a seat at my camp anytime. >>

Ole, I appreciate that. I've had the privilege of getting on the ground with
some of your Brothers here in California, and hope that we too can one day
share some shinin' times together.    Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:59:01 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fats in the Fire

Would a small Copper boiler have the same problem of coming unsoldered as
> Tin, or are there other problems as well?    Barney
>


Friends.

I want to assure you that a tin boiler or a copper boiler will not come
unsoldered while deep frying. The temperature of the oil will be below the
flow temperature of the solder as long as there is either oil or water in
the boiler.

Perhaps if you let the level get down to a small fraction of an inch, but
then the oil would flash over and be well lit. Same for a quantity of oil.
It will flash over before it reaches the flow temperature of the solder and
the same for water. It will boil away before the pot ever reaches the flow
temperature of the solder. In other words the pot will never get hotter than
the contents and thus will effectively never get hot enough to become
unsoldered.

Now the problem with deep frying in any container over an open fire is in
keeping the oil from getting so hot that it flashes over/ignites not to
mention keeping the pot upright. Should the pot spill, there will be an
instant lighting of the night for several hundred yards around. Having never
attempted deep frying with anything other than a small cast iron pot (less
than a quart and actually about the size of a plumbers lead pot) I will say
that you should be able to safely deep fry in any metal container that you
can keep upright. I would recommend that you either hang the pot from a
tripod of green sticks using a string or thong as the suspending medium or
from a metal tripod or cross bar using metal hooks, etc. Either will work
fine.

I use a wood switch tripod and a string to hang my corn boilers and bigger
pots above the flames and have never lost a pot to the fire. I find it easy
to raise and lower the pot by simply taking up some of the extra string. It
starts at the tripod as part of the clove hitch securing the three sticks
and hangs down through the bail and back up to be hooked over any handy stub
using a simple loop in that end of the string. It does not burn through as
long as there is no direct flame impingement.

 It is easy to "walk" the pot off the fire if necessary by simply walking
the three legs of the tripod to the side. A bit of experimentation with
these techniques before the fire gets going too well will train you to
accomplish the raising and lowering and walking to the side with skill very
quickly.

If your going to deep fry in your pot just be sure that it hangs level and
is not "tipsy" as it hangs from the suspending mechanism as some low wide
pots can be with their low center of gravity.

Now go forth and deep fry. Save me some fry bread. With sugar and cinnamon
if you please! <G> Oh yea, you can make a handy pickeruper with two small
sticks in the shape of chop sticks. Learn to use chop sticks and you can
pick your dumplings out of the fat and feed yourself in the field without
packing silverware. Probably not PC to the mountains but it works.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to tend that chunk of "Ned" I got roasting
over the coals out back. I think the brown sugar has caramelized over the
surface enough to form a nice glaze and my Christmas Company is getting
restless! Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:55:58 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing


>
> Then: Clay J. Landry wrote in part
>
> The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles rigged
> with a single cinch and crupper.  Most of his drawings indicate that the
> single cinch was "center shot" or
> rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center
> of
> his barrel.

> Do you know of anyone who has tried this rigging?  I am going to have to
> fix a saddle and may try it.  Just a little concerned about center
> rigging in steep country.

- -----I do not know of anyone who has tried it on a pack saddle.  The "center
shot" rigging on the old saddles has always puzzled me-if you study many of
the old saddles or trees you will see that many, though not all, of the
riding saddles were also rigged "center shot". A book called "Man Made
Mobile" by Ahlborn ,has examples of some saddles from the early 1800s
- -there is a California saddle dated "1830to1860"   that is center shot then
another specimen from Mexico dated about the same that is forward rigged
about 3/4. Several of the  Texas saddles from 1850 to 1860 are rigged 3/4 to
full while a presentation saddle made in 1862 by a Denver saddle maker is
center rigged.
 The center rigging could be a real problem in steep country if the pack
saddle is allowed to slide forward-thus I would think that a center rigged
pack saddle defintely needs a crouper. If  you try a pack saddle rigged in
this manner I would appreciate hearing about the results and your opinion of
that setup.

> (Mr Landry)
> I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on
> packs. This  was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond
> hitch.
> (Me)
> What would it cost me to know what that source is?

- -----Nothing-------page 29 of  "Journey to the Rocky Mountians in 1839" by
Frederrick A. Wislizenus. "The baggage is divided into two equal parts, each
part firmly bound up, and hung by loops on either side of the yoke shaped
pack saddle. The hole is further fastened by the  so-called "lash rope", of
stout buffalo leather, which is first wound around the barrel of the animal,
then in diamond shaped turns as firmly as possible around the pack. My
baggage weighed 150 to 200 pounds, a quite ordinary load for a mule."
>
> (Mr Landry)
>  Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds each.
> (Me)
> Do you believe this to be accurate?  With an average horse of 750 lbs
> and two packs equaling 200 lbs that is close to 28%.  I don't believe
> the RMFT was a nice sweet touchy feelings type but that is Heavy.

- -----For the most part I do believe the goal was to have the packs weigh 100
pounds each when it came to packing furs-there are just to many journal
naratives and ledger entries that refer to this weight of fur  pack. Trade
goods on the other hand probably had various weights- it would be very
difficult to get a pack containing blankets up to a 100 lbs-just to much
bulk-likewise one containing tinware, silk scarves, shirts and other cloth
items. Your point about the weight being to much for a 750 pound horse is
well taken-but as Wislizenus pointed out -average for a mule,
plus ---horses, as viewed by the fur men, were a tool  and often used very
hard.

> I too have started the study of historical horse use and enjoyed Mr
> Landry's post.

Good luck in your study-if you like and use horses it should be a lot of
fun.

> Wynn Ormond
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:03:22 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing

Clay,
    Good to see your name from time to time, how is the wife and family?
Ran across a reference the other day on saddle bags. I know Osbourne
russel tells of carrying all his stuff (which wasn't much) i one from fort to
fort, but do you find them much in other journals?
    Our baggage had hitherto been transported on a light wagon, but we were now
to break our way through an untravelled country, cut up by rivers, ravines, and
thickets, where a vehicle of the kind would be a complete impediment.  We were
to travel on horseback, in hunter's style, and with as little encumbrance as
possible.  Our baggage, therefore, underwent a rigid and most abstemious
reduction. A pair of saddle-bags, and those by no means crammed, sufficed for
each man's scanty wardrobe, and, with his great coat, were to be carried upon
the steed he rode.  The rest of the baggage was placed on pack-horses.  Each one
had a bear-skin and a couple of blankets for bedding, and there was a tent to
shelter us in case of sickness or bad weather.  We took care to provide
ourselves with flour, coffee, and sugar, together with a small supply of salt
pork for emergencies; for our main subsistence we were to depend upon the case.
                  "A Tour of the Prairies"     Washington Irving, p. 19.
                                                        mike.

"Clay J. Landry" wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
> To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 12:18 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing
>
> >
> > Then: Clay J. Landry wrote in part
> >
> > The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles rigged
> > with a single cinch and crupper.  Most of his drawings indicate that the
> > single cinch was "center shot" or
> > rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center
> > of
> > his barrel.
>
> > Do you know of anyone who has tried this rigging?  I am going to have to
> > fix a saddle and may try it.  Just a little concerned about center
> > rigging in steep country.
>
> -----I do not know of anyone who has tried it on a pack saddle.  The "center
> shot" rigging on the old saddles has always puzzled me-if you study many of
> the old saddles or trees you will see that many, though not all, of the
> riding saddles were also rigged "center shot". A book called "Man Made
> Mobile" by Ahlborn ,has examples of some saddles from the early 1800s
> -there is a California saddle dated "1830to1860"   that is center shot then
> another specimen from Mexico dated about the same that is forward rigged
> about 3/4. Several of the  Texas saddles from 1850 to 1860 are rigged 3/4 to
> full while a presentation saddle made in 1862 by a Denver saddle maker is
> center rigged.
>  The center rigging could be a real problem in steep country if the pack
> saddle is allowed to slide forward-thus I would think that a center rigged
> pack saddle defintely needs a crouper. If  you try a pack saddle rigged in
> this manner I would appreciate hearing about the results and your opinion of
> that setup.
>
> > (Mr Landry)
> > I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on
> > packs. This  was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond
> > hitch.
> > (Me)
> > What would it cost me to know what that source is?
>
> -----Nothing-------page 29 of  "Journey to the Rocky Mountians in 1839" by
> Frederrick A. Wislizenus. "The baggage is divided into two equal parts, each
> part firmly bound up, and hung by loops on either side of the yoke shaped
> pack saddle. The hole is further fastened by the  so-called "lash rope", of
> stout buffalo leather, which is first wound around the barrel of the animal,
> then in diamond shaped turns as firmly as possible around the pack. My
> baggage weighed 150 to 200 pounds, a quite ordinary load for a mule."
> >
> > (Mr Landry)
> >  Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds each.
> > (Me)
> > Do you believe this to be accurate?  With an average horse of 750 lbs
> > and two packs equaling 200 lbs that is close to 28%.  I don't believe
> > the RMFT was a nice sweet touchy feelings type but that is Heavy.
>
> -----For the most part I do believe the goal was to have the packs weigh 100
> pounds each when it came to packing furs-there are just to many journal
> naratives and ledger entries that refer to this weight of fur  pack. Trade
> goods on the other hand probably had various weights- it would be very
> difficult to get a pack containing blankets up to a 100 lbs-just to much
> bulk-likewise one containing tinware, silk scarves, shirts and other cloth
> items. Your point about the weight being to much for a 750 pound horse is
> well taken-but as Wislizenus pointed out -average for a mule,
> plus ---horses, as viewed by the fur men, were a tool  and often used very
> hard.
>
> > I too have started the study of historical horse use and enjoyed Mr
> > Landry's post.
>
> Good luck in your study-if you like and use horses it should be a lot of
> fun.
>
> > Wynn Ormond
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:43:57 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas

Gene,

The list of articles from the Jackson Letters, vol. 1, p. 71-72, shows: "20
yds. Oil linnnen for wrapping & securing Articles [,] 10 yds do.do of
thicker quality for covering and lining boxes, &c [,] 40 Yds Do. Do. To form
two half faced Tents or Shelters contrived in such manner their parts may be
taken to pieces & again connected at pleasure in order to answer the several
purposes of Tents, covering to Boat or Canoe, or if necessary to be used as
sails. The pieces when unconnected will be 5 feet in Width and rather more
than 14 feet in length" and "15 Oil Cloth Bags for securing provision".
Where Steve came up with the "each eight by twelve feet" is anybody's guess.

Hope this answers your question.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]





- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas


> To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for
the
> Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference
> for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I
> know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate.
> However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of
> the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify
these
> purchases in it.
>
> "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June
> (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals.
He
> got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of
> oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he
> could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails
by
> day."
>
> Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen
> (tarps?) to set up for evening writing.
>
> YMOS
> Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 23:21:07 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing

Mike

Saddle bags are an item that shows up occasionally, but not as often as you
would think. The paper that I presented at the Fur Trade 2000  Symposium
dealt with the outfitting of all of the AMFC Rocky Mountain trapping/trading
expeditions from the  1829 to 1834. In all of the information pertaining to
these enterprises I found only a few records of saddle bags being purchased
or used.

The Western Department of the American Fur  Company ledgers includes  the
accounts of Thornton Grimsley, a St. Louis saddle maker. Most of the entries
on an account page from 1829 are credits to Grimsley for items of horse tack
that he was furnishing to the company. A July 6, 1829 entry indicates that 7
pairs of saddle bags were delivered to the UMO, (in 1829 the UMO trapping
venture was lead by W.H. Vandenburg), while earlier in the year, on May 23,
Grimsley was credited $7.00 for "2 dz leather sursingles

Likewise, I have only found an occasional mention of  saddle bags in my
studies of the Fort Hall records, Astorians, Ashley Henry, Jed Smith, Robert
Campbell, Peter Ogden expeditions  and the first person journals that I have
read. Why??-I can only speculate-so here goes,

Speculation #1. I have seen Spanish saddles list as "complete" and priced
for $5.00 while on the same list  just "Spanish saddle" priced at
$3.00-obliviously there $2.00 more of something to a "complete Spanish
saddle"-did this extra charge include saddle bags?? I don't know for sure
but it could have.

Speculation #2.  Larpenteur states that in 1834  "My load to Fort Union not
very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed
at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel shirts,
etc".  Could this style of saddle bag, being much cheaper that leather bags
and something that the mountaineers could manufacture themselves quite
easily, been the popular choice-thereby not the kind of item that would
show up on the trade ledgers other than as a piece of brown muslin?? The
Fort Hall ledgers, 1834 to 1837, contain several purchases yards of brown
cloth by the trappers of the Columbia River Fishing and Trading Company.

Good to visit with you-we sure had some fine doings over the years at old
Fort Laramie-Jamie and I are very happy and finally getting settle in our
new home on the Powder river.

Clay
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing


> Clay,
>     Good to see your name from time to time, how is the wife and family?
> Ran across a reference the other day on saddle bags. I know Osbourne
> russel tells of carrying all his stuff (which wasn't much) i one from fort
to
> fort, but do you find them much in other journals?
>     Our baggage had hitherto been transported on a light wagon, but we
were now
> to break our way through an untravelled country, cut up by rivers,
ravines, and
> thickets, where a vehicle of the kind would be a complete impediment.  We
were
> to travel on horseback, in hunter's style, and with as little encumbrance
as
> possible.  Our baggage, therefore, underwent a rigid and most abstemious
> reduction. A pair of saddle-bags, and those by no means crammed, sufficed
for
> each man's scanty wardrobe, and, with his great coat, were to be carried
upon
> the steed he rode.  The rest of the baggage was placed on pack-horses.
Each one
> had a bear-skin and a couple of blankets for bedding, and there was a tent
to
> shelter us in case of sickness or bad weather.  We took care to provide
> ourselves with flour, coffee, and sugar, together with a small supply of
salt
> pork for emergencies; for our main subsistence we were to depend upon the
case.
>                   "A Tour of the Prairies"     Washington Irving, p. 19.
>                                                         mike.
>
> "Clay J. Landry" wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gretchen Ormond <[e-mail]>
> > To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 12:18 PM
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing
> >
> > >
> > > Then: Clay J. Landry wrote in part
> > >
> > > The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles
rigged
> > > with a single cinch and crupper.  Most of his drawings indicate that
the
> > > single cinch was "center shot" or
> > > rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center
> > > of
> > > his barrel.
> >
> > > Do you know of anyone who has tried this rigging?  I am going to have
to
> > > fix a saddle and may try it.  Just a little concerned about center
> > > rigging in steep country.
> >
> > -----I do not know of anyone who has tried it on a pack saddle.  The
"center
> > shot" rigging on the old saddles has always puzzled me-if you study many
of
> > the old saddles or trees you will see that many, though not all, of the
> > riding saddles were also rigged "center shot". A book called "Man Made
> > Mobile" by Ahlborn ,has examples of some saddles from the early 1800s
> > -there is a California saddle dated "1830to1860"   that is center shot
then
> > another specimen from Mexico dated about the same that is forward rigged
> > about 3/4. Several of the  Texas saddles from 1850 to 1860 are rigged
3/4 to
> > full while a presentation saddle made in 1862 by a Denver saddle maker
is
> > center rigged.
> >  The center rigging could be a real problem in steep country if the pack
> > saddle is allowed to slide forward-thus I would think that a center
rigged
> > pack saddle defintely needs a crouper. If  you try a pack saddle rigged
in
> > this manner I would appreciate hearing about the results and your
opinion of
> > that setup.
> >
> > > (Mr Landry)
> > > I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on
> > > packs. This  was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond
> > > hitch.
> > > (Me)
> > > What would it cost me to know what that source is?
> >
> > -----Nothing-------page 29 of  "Journey to the Rocky Mountians in 1839"
by
> > Frederrick A. Wislizenus. "The baggage is divided into two equal parts,
each
> > part firmly bound up, and hung by loops on either side of the yoke
shaped
> > pack saddle. The hole is further fastened by the  so-called "lash rope",
of
> > stout buffalo leather, which is first wound around the barrel of the
animal,
> > then in diamond shaped turns as firmly as possible around the pack. My
> > baggage weighed 150 to 200 pounds, a quite ordinary load for a mule."
> > >
> > > (Mr Landry)
> > >  Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds
each.
> > > (Me)
> > > Do you believe this to be accurate?  With an average horse of 750 lbs
> > > and two packs equaling 200 lbs that is close to 28%.  I don't believe
> > > the RMFT was a nice sweet touchy feelings type but that is Heavy.
> >
> > -----For the most part I do believe the goal was to have the packs weigh
100
> > pounds each when it came to packing furs-there are just to many journal
> > naratives and ledger entries that refer to this weight of fur  pack.
Trade
> > goods on the other hand probably had various weights- it would be very
> > difficult to get a pack containing blankets up to a 100 lbs-just to much
> > bulk-likewise one containing tinware, silk scarves, shirts and other
cloth
> > items. Your point about the weight being to much for a 750 pound horse
is
> > well taken-but as Wislizenus pointed out -average for a mule,
> > plus ---horses, as viewed by the fur men, were a tool  and often used
very
> > hard.
> >
> > > I too have started the study of historical horse use and enjoyed Mr
> > > Landry's post.
> >
> > Good luck in your study-if you like and use horses it should be a lot of
> > fun.
> >
> > > Wynn Ormond
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 01:55:23 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List:  OT  --- Dove Season, etc. Comments

Amen, Dennis.  Agree with your comments 100%.  Michigan is STILL trying
to get a mourning dove hunting season. Lost in Dec.2000 by ONE VOTE!
Reintroduced again this year - now going to the Senate.  A never ending
battle against false information and ignorance put forth by Anti-Hunters
as you so eloquently stated.
[P.S.  am a Life Member in the Michigan United Conservation Clubs - aka
MUCC].

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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