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hist_text-digest      Saturday, December 22 2001      Volume 01 : Number 911



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES
-áááááá MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!!     ???????
-áááááá MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas
-áááááá MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:29:40 -0600
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!!     ???????
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and  zealots)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:43:01 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members

We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today
into Sat, the skiers love it.
I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction
and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his
site.  He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty
good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking
about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of
the year.

Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met
last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts
yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other
states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything
for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on.

Buck.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES


> Buck.
>  Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess..<G>
> Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a
> thinking.. How be things your way?
> D



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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:18:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES

your humility reflects your superiority, a trait that
if you did not have you would not be.

but capt, i must say, i ain't one to suck up; jest
tell it as i see it.  and for those poor souls of the
supersensitive bent whom may get offended cause the
skirts had or have too much influence on em i'll jest
have to bear it. funny i recall all those pre 1840
white and black males out there as largely
patriarchal, and the plains and mountain warriors.
yep that might be part of the sensitivity issue here.

all else aside capt., being how your from a wetter
climate than my Montana, i surely wish you would get
Dean's permission to put your oilcloth recipie in this
pages archives if it has not been done.  or contact
somebody with 'muzzleloader' mag or some simular and
publish a tested proven oilcloth formulae as yours.

do you know anyone up in yore country or elsewhere
whom has an oilcloth that has survived at least 10
years of moderate use?

also, could you post your oil cloth formulae very very
thorough and detailed one more time?

i can see why your a brigade leader,
clint garrett

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:30:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES

mitch or anyone confused or in doubt,
   since i do not use perfect or semi-perfect english
skills in my posts i can see why there may be a
communication barrier. after reading ogden's journals
and others whom were educated for their day and seeing
their use of english i do not think we would have too
much trouble following those whom had even less such
as boone.

but i really think it could/may be that many have the
AMM isscussion page coming in to them via there all
inclusive e-mails.  i mean i personally have only the
discussin group on this e-mail of mine.  that way i
don't miss anything if i keep up every few days, by
reading the topic concerned and the past few days
prior.

hope that may help.  if not write me privately, you
have my address, if it's something you don't want posted.

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:46:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!!     ???????

>
> There ya go. Someone did use his beaver pelts to
> make it through a cold night. Now the only question
> is how prevelant it was and was that an emergency
> expedient or something done quite frequently.
>
>
>   "The Chronicles of George C. Yount"  while with
> William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range
> wrote:
>
>   The blankets used by these travellers of the
> wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and
> almost impervious to water- A small stream of water
> running directly through a corner of their camp,
> they found not difficult to keep open for the use of
> themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was
> kept burning night & day in the center- With their
> Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves
> and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut
> out from all the world, while the storm was hawling
> around them, and the snow falling in astonishing
> profusion--
>
>   Mark " Roadkill" Loader
>
THANKS Capt. and Mark,
   not that you did it for me but for all of us.  i
mean that iz what this document zeal is all about;
sharing the knowledge that settles only hypothetical
conjecture.  i never read of this until now, but
sometimes you can speculate upon what they may have
done only to have it proven latter on,

this documentation plunder is as worthy as doin tha
craftwork, thanks.

clint

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:17:51 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings

   It is a stormy afternoon, what passes for winter here in Southern
California, and there is probably a good deal of snow falling in the local
mountains. My friend Burnt Spoon and his wife Greyflower are probably
stoking their wood stove and lighting kerosene lamps in their cottage on the
slopes of Mt Palomar; they may have received snow at their elevation
overnight. Other friends are warming their homes "on the grid" up and down
the coast. It has been an eventful year, both personally and nationally,
with more stress than I would have desired at this stage in my life.
   May we all enjoy a safe and warm Christmas season surrounded by our loved
ones, and may the coming year bring us health, prosperity, and improved
protection against those who wish us harm. My father always liked to make
sure we understood the exact wording of the biblical proclamation:
"Peace on earth, TO MEN OF GOOD WILL".
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Pat Quilter.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:57:15 -0700
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas

To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for the
Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference
for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I
know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate.
However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of
the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify these
purchases in it.

"Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June
(1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals. He
got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of
oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he
could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails by
day."

Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen
(tarps?) to set up for evening writing.

YMOS
Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:58:25 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation)

Barry Conner said
<<Isn't it amazing ... the vision our forefathers had... How in the world
could these men 200 years ago have the foresight to put down this
information that still governs today - when compared, them to what we have
today - need I say anymore...>>
   As I was reading Undaunted Courage last year, I was struck by that age's
dedication to truth and facts. They actually believed that if a good
observer wrote stuff down in a journal, and brought the information back to
other educated people, that by using logic and systematic analysis, this
information could be developed into knowledge that added to the storehouse
of science. One of the most depressing developments of the last 25 years is
the assumption that documentation and conclusions must be tainted by the
politics of the witness, so that we automatically distrust all scientific or
governmental pronouncements, at least until we know what their "agenda" is.
Whereas our ancestors were using the most basic tools to extract nuggets of
knowledge from a sea of ignorance, we are now living in an age of confusion
while surrounded by an incredible richness of facts and observations. I
believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies a
lot of the spirit of living history.
Pat Quilter


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:48:05 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members

Buck,
There may be some starting at "This is the Place State Park" in Salt Lake, I
will find out later.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members
>Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 7:43 AM
>

>We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today
>into Sat, the skiers love it.
>I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction
>and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his
>site.  He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty
>good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking
>about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of
>the year.
>
>Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met
>last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts
>yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other
>states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything
>for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on.
>
>Buck.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES
>
>
>> Buck.
>>  Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess..<G>
>> Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a
>> thinking.. How be things your way?
>> D
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:59:05 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

Clint,
AMM Brothers? I have checked the Database and I can not seem to locate youre
name. What is youre status? youre number?.
YMOS
Ole # 718 Hivarno
- ----------
>From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
>Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 1:56 PM
>

>Now if your interested in being as pc as possible
>> then you set yourself a
>> high bar and must refuse that which you can not
>> provide the evidence
>>
>> >>Well said Capt.  That is a very high bar indeed.
>> Of course Naked with a
>> Rock is definitely period correct.  I wonder if that
>> is what Mr. Garrett is
>> talking about ?  <VBG>
>> Pendleton
>
>Brother Larry,
>
>I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal.  i
>also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to
>what i'm talking about.  if you read the post i made
>today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you
>will/can not help but agree.  we all compromise the
>standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade.
>      if you visit many AMM encampments you will see
>men living in tipis without indian wives.  how many
>mountain men had tipis?  unless they were married to a
>wife from the tribes, whom left him.  according to
>walker "Lakota Society" written about during the
>second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was
>a woman's(win'yan) .  on the plains you will find that
>among the tribes the only males living in lodges
>without wives or female relatives whom owned them were
>generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say.  of
>course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned
>the lodge.
>   so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i
>show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a
>authentic native wife. funny even though i do not
>think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have
>seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of
>course i could compromise as carson travelled with
>fremont with a lodge.  but wasn't that after 1840?
>
>     of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know
>it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease
>elements of history are.  there may be documentation
>that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis.
>maybe ogden's brigades?
>
>
>LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among
>the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi?  if there
>is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it
>must have handed down from heaven by the
>spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to
>be it.
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:41:21 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

Clint,
    Actually you find alot of winter camps or "winter quarters" to
have the tipi used in them. Some were used because they wintered
with a tribe (wheather they married into them or not), a few because
the trappers themselves were of mixed races. But we can find sources
that show white men living through the winter monthes in lodges.
    In Parkman's book, Reynal, his half french/ half indian friend and
guide
hauled a lodge around with him, with his wife. Warren Ferris (twice) and
Osbourne
Russell both tell of staying in these snug lodges, with up to six men a
piece
in them. I will give one of the best descriptions of this wintere living:
    ôThe winter season having become so far advanced, we pitched quarters
in a large grove of aspen trees, at the brink of an excellent spring that
supplied us with the purest water, and resolved to pass the winter here.
Our hunters made daily excursions to the mountains, by which we were half
surrounded, and always returned with the flesh of several black tailed
deer; an animal almost as numerous as the pines and cedars among which they
are found....we passed the time by visiting, feasting, and chatting with
each other, or by hunting occasionally, for exercise and amusement. Our
camp presented eight leather lodges, and two constructed of poles covered
with cane grass, which grows in the dense patches to the height of eight or
ten feet along the river. They were all completely sheltered from the wind
by the surrounding trees.
 Within, the bottoms were covered with reeds, upon which our blankets and
robes were spread, leaving a small place in the center for the fire. Our
baggage was placed around at the bottom of the lodge, on the inside, to
exclude the cold from beneath it, and each one of the inmates had his own
particular place in assigned to him. One who had never lived in a lodge,
would scarcely think it possible for seven or eight persons to pass a long
winter agreeably, in a circular room, ten feet in diameter, having a
considerable portion of it occupied by the fire in the center; but could
they see us seated around the fire, cross legged like Turks, upon our beds,
each one employed in cleaning our guns, repairing moccasins, smoking, and
lolling at ease on our elbows, with out interfering with each other, they
would exclaim, Indeed they are comfortable as they could wish to be! Which
is the case in reality.ö  WarrenFerris, "Life in the rocky Mountains", pp
354-5.
    I myself, have brought my lodge to a AMM camp probably 2 out of the
last 3 years
for the winter camp. And will use it again for a buffalo hunt in the next
few months.
Very practical and authenic for winter camps.
                                mike..

Clint Garrett wrote:

> Now if your interested in being as pc as possible
> > then you set yourself a
> > high bar and must refuse that which you can not
> > provide the evidence
> >
> > >>Well said Capt.  That is a very high bar indeed.
> > Of course Naked with a
> > Rock is definitely period correct.  I wonder if that
> > is what Mr. Garrett is
> > talking about ?  <VBG>
> > Pendleton
>
> Brother Larry,
>
> I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal.  i
> also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to
> what i'm talking about.  if you read the post i made
> today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you
> will/can not help but agree.  we all compromise the
> standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade.
>       if you visit many AMM encampments you will see
> men living in tipis without indian wives.  how many
> mountain men had tipis?  unless they were married to a
> wife from the tribes, whom left him.  according to
> walker "Lakota Society" written about during the
> second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was
> a woman's(win'yan) .  on the plains you will find that
> among the tribes the only males living in lodges
> without wives or female relatives whom owned them were
> generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say.  of
> course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned
> the lodge.
>    so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i
> show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a
> authentic native wife. funny even though i do not
> think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have
> seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of
> course i could compromise as carson travelled with
> fremont with a lodge.  but wasn't that after 1840?
>
>      of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know
> it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease
> elements of history are.  there may be documentation
> that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis.
> maybe ogden's brigades?
>
> LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among
> the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi?  if there
> is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it
> must have handed down from heaven by the
> spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to
> be it.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:29:11 -0700
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:29:40 -0600

Mr Garrett wrote:
>      if you visit many AMM encampments you will see
>men living in tipis without indian wives.

Mr Garrett
I have been to many AMM camp (in eight states) and I have seen exactly two
tipis.........but I have never seen you.  You are inching closer and closer
to being deleted automatically by lots of men who might otherwise help you
learn.  Nothing will earn you that dubious honor more quickly than claiming
an affiliation with AMM that doesn't exist.
I will begin deleting your posts unread immediately unless you can
satisfactorily answer Ole Jensen's question.

Lanney Ratcliff, Bossloper #1585
Tejas Party, Texas/Oklahoma Brigade



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:11:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation)

In a message dated 12/21/2001 3:58:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies
a
 lot of the spirit of living history. >>

You are waxing most eloquent Pat and I wholeheartedly agree. Our family
wishes you and all members of this incredible List as well as those they care
about, a wonderful Holiday season and the best of new years to come...
 Ralph Rosen aka Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:15:24 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not
seem to locate youre name >>

Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were
wasting your time on that one.....  <EG>                Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:18:59 -0700
From: Allen Hall <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

Clint,

Osborne Russell bought a lodge at Fort Hall with 5 other guys to spend the
winter.  I'll get exact quotes etc. if you're interested.

Allen




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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 21:34:17 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

CLINT GARRET
SORRY PARD---GET A LIFE---MORE BABBLEING---GET ON THE GROUND---RUN WITH
THE BIG DOG OR GET OFF THE POARCH---ENOUGH BS AND WASTED BAND SPACE---

NUFF SAID-------- AND YES I AM SHOUTING---AND I AGREE WITH LANNY---
"We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o"---LANNY TAKE ANOTHER
BITE AT THE PILGREM---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 07:35:42 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt

Barney,
You are not bosteful and have mannors and that will get you a seat at my
camp anytime.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt
>Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 8:15 PM
>

>In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not
>seem to locate youre name >>
>
>Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were
>wasting your time on that one.....  <EG>                Barney
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:19:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

The people on this list argue back and forth about what was.  Who traps in
the was of old,. and much more.  Hopefully all this helps most of use become
better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was.  How
many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn.  Trapping is in danger
of being outlawed.  How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next
generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we
can to keep our heritage alive.

                                           TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole

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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:31:59 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!!     ???????

 I have nothing to say they did or didn't, but it makes since.  You can only
carry so much and you are surely keep what you came to the mountains for, and
nothing is as warm as fur.

                         TrapRJoe AKA Ridge Pole

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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 10:56:06 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

Ridge Pole,
 I am agreement with you 100%. Although no longer a member of the NTA, I am
a member of the Ohioans for Wildlife Conservation and a Charter member of
Darke Countians for Wildlife Conservation. We formed in 77 when the anti's
took a grand stab here at outlawing trapping here in Ohio. Threw ALL their
national efforts at us.. We whipped 'me.. And whipped the anti's again a
couple years ago when they went after out Dove season.. We will, with
support, whip 'me again, cause they WILL be back. And they assault all
states and try to destroy sound game management with "new age" thinking.
Hell, we can even use snares in Ohio once again.
Everyone needs to keep a vigilant eye on our rights. If we get complacent,
we will lose.
D


"We will always remember.
We will always be proud.
We will always be prepared,
so we may always be free. "


Ronald Reagan


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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:59:26 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and  zealots)

Recieved this by private email, thought the rest of you would like to see
it. It is a response to my answer to Ridge Pole.
I also enclosed is my answer to B'st'rd.
D




- ----- Original Message -----
From: "JW Stephens" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and
zealots)


> Your classing conservationists as pro- and anti- bothers me because you
> seem to imply that all of the anti-s are bad and all of their ideas are
> bad, and conversely, that those who agree with you must be right.
> Remember how the buffalo were almost wiped out, and a beaver desert
> created? Sound game management practices are not the sole domain of
> pro-s nor anti-s and while I applaud your fervor, it's not rights that
> need to be defended here, but what is right. Was it right that the
> buffalo was almost hunted to extinction? And yet it was government
> policy, and thus the right of the hunters. What about the rights of the
> natives in that case? Are all rights devolved only to you? What about
> when your rights confiict with my rights?
>
> Note that I am not saying that what you are doing or supporting is
> wrong, only that keeping a vigilant, blind eye on our rights is only
> worth doing if we keep the other eye focused upon what is right.
>
> B'st'rd
> --
> Cyclists need safe accommodation on public roads.
> Nothing more is expected.  Nothing less is acceptable.
>
> JW Stephens, Primary Color Systems, Irvine, CA    949.862.1751
>

B'st'rd.
 WHOAA Bubba! I didn't paint Conservationists as pro & anti. What we fight
is groups like PETA, Humane Society of the US  and other groups that use
liberal, cuddly & fuzzy logic in their attacks, bring in millions of dollars
and give NOTHING to wildlife, no habitat, no proper managemnet, nothing.
THOSE are NOT conservationists.. Period.  I have NOTHING against any
CONSERVATIONIST or CONSERVATION GROUP that uses sound wildlife management &
prfessionals in the course of what they do.
I think you are somewhat befuddled in what I said.

Let me ignore some of the other stuff here and ask a question with a
question..
"What about the rights of the natives in that case? "

When it comes to buffalo, are these the same natives who would run entire
herds off of blind bluffs (aka buffalo drops)?
That is sound practice alright and I bet a helluva spectical!.
D




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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:10:54 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas

Donald Jackson's book "Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and related
documents" , contains  reproductions of just about all of the orders and
invoices pertaining to supplying and equipping the expedition. On page 90 is
an invoice from Mr. Richd. Wevill, dated June 15, 1803 in which he bills the
government for the following;

107 yds of brown Linen @ 1/6
46 1/2 yds of (Russia) Flanders sheeting  @ 2/5
10 yds of 7/8 Country Linen    3/
making the brown Linen into 8 Tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps etc. Thread
etc.
making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & cord. @1/6
2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes @ 3/9
Oiling all of the Linen & Sheeting   150 square yards @ 2/6
numbering all the Bags a& Tents

A summary of this bill is latter listed as "Oil-cloth tents & Baggs
Wevill--Qr. Mr......119.39"

I have also seen references to pieces of  "Russia sheeting" in list of goods
supplied to rendezvous and trappers-including the men of General Ashley. I
would have to do some digging to see if any of it was referred to as
"oiled". Have seen numerous references to "linen tents" in the American
Fur Company ledgers.


Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Hickman <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas


> To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for
the
> Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference
> for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I
> know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate.
> However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of
> the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify
these
> purchases in it.
>
> "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June
> (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals.
He
> got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of
> oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he
> could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails
by
> day."
>
> Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen
> (tarps?) to set up for evening writing.
>
> YMOS
> Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:24:37 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots)

Joe,

How many are members of the NRA, that's fighting to keep the Second
Amendment alive, when the guns go you'll be able to use your traps to
protect your house and maybe get a few of those that want to take all our
rights.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and
zealots)


> The people on this list argue back and forth about what was.  Who traps in
> the was of old,. and much more.  Hopefully all this helps most of use
become
> better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was.  How
> many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn.  Trapping is in
danger
> of being outlawed.  How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next
> generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we
> can to keep our heritage alive.
>
>                                            TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:18:34 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Horse Packing

Rick Guglielmi asked about packing methods

I wrote in part:
Ruxton used and describes the aparejo quite well.  IÆll try to get the
referances later.  I believe that some trappers who learned the art from

the Spaniards would likewise have used them.  I never have but I really
question all the glowing reports I have read about them.


Where is RuxtonÆs words pg 16:

The greatest difficulty I experienced was in packing the mules, which
operation, when on an aparejo, or Mexican pack-saddle, is the work of
two men, and I may as well describe the process.

The equipment of a pack-mule--mula de carga -consists first and foremost
of the aparejo, which is a square pad of stuffed leather. An idea of the
shape may be formed by taking a book and placing it saddle-fashion on
any object, the leaves being equally divided, and each half forming a
flap of the saddle. This is placed on the mule's back on a xerga, or
saddlecloth, which had under it a salea, raw sheepskin softened by the
hand, which prevents the saddle chafing the back. The aparejo is then
secured by a broad grass-band, which is drawn so tight, that the animal
appears cut in two, and groans and grunts most awfully under the
operation, which to a greenhorn seems most unnecessary and cruel. It is
in this, however, that the secret of packing a mule consists; the firmer
the pack-saddle, the more comfortably the mule travels, and with less
risk of being "matada," literally killed, but meaning chafed and cut.

The carga is then placed on the top, if a single pack; or if two of
equal size and weight one on each side, being coupled together by a
rope, which balances them on the mule's back: a stout pack-rope is then
thrown over all, drawn as tight as possible under the belly, and laced
round the packs, securing the load firmly in its place. A square piece
of matting - petate - is then thrown over the pack to protect it from
rain, the tapojos is removed from the mule's eyes, and the operation is
complete. The tapojos - blinker - is a piece of thin embroidered
leather, which is placed over the mule's eyes before being packed, and,
thus blinded, the animal remains perfectly quiet. The cargador [packer]
stands on the near side of the pack, his assistant on the other, hauling
on the slack of the rope, with his knee against the side of the mule for
a purchase; when the rope is taut, he cries "Adios!" and the packer,
rejoining "Vaya!" makes fast the rope on the top of the carga, sings out
"Anda!" and the mule trots off to her companions, who feed round until
all the mules of the atajo are packed.


Then: Clay J. Landry wrote in part

The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles rigged
with a single cinch and crupper.  Most of his drawings indicate that the
single cinch was "center shot" or
rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center
of
his barrel.


Do you know of anyone who has tried this rigging?  I am going to have to
fix a saddle and may try it.  Just a little concerned about center
rigging in steep country.

(Mr Landry)
I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on
packs. This  was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond
hitch.


(Me)
What would it cost me to know what that source is?


(Mr Landry)
 Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds each.



(Me)
Do you believe this to be accurate?  With an average horse of 750 lbs
and two packs equaling 200 lbs that is close to 28%.  I donÆt believe
the RMFT was a nice sweet touchy feelings type but that is Heavy.

I too have started the study of historical horse use and enjoyed Mr
LandryÆs post.

Wynn Ormond






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