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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, December 18 2001      Volume 01 : Number 906



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon
-áááááá MtMan-List: Book?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:15:32 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Garrett" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.


> AS FAR AS AGE MOST- <snip>  IT MAYBE
> THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY
> FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'.

Clint,

Why are you yelling?

>
>  Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the
> longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting
> shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from
> canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso.
> yep this was those ole buckskin shirts.

Mark Baker has changed his stance on a number of things over the years
though I have no reason to doubt that he came across information that
indicates the above.

  now if they
> cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in
> their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they
> provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp
> camp?

You really want to prove to your self that they just didn't live wet when it
was wet and dry when it was dry don't you? But have you? So far all you've
been doing is speculating to justify. So go ahead and oil your canvas or
grease your coat.

But don't call it authentic because your "exploratory/experamental
archaeology" made you come up with it even though there is no evidence other
than you got wet, decided you didn't like being wet, greased your tent so
you wouldn't be wet, so therefore the trappers of old must have done it! Be
honest and say, "I don't want to be wet and this is using natural materials
to keep me from being wet. The trappers may have done this thought there is
no proof. I just decided to do it."

And NO NEED TO YELL. Now you got me doing it! <G>

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'










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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:32:14 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

> but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a
> pre 1840 period

Clint,

The point of this AMM sponsored site is to discuss history.

  but the point of
> Buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp.

And one would want to do that as authentically as knowledge of how it was
done would allow? If that is a concern then one would not want to do
anything that can't be proven?



>
> i'm not saying we have to go become poachers

One of AMM's standing rules forbids the breaking of any game laws. Period.

as they
> were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they
> niggered/worked for.  but are we not supposed to
> emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorious
> or non-romantically done.

Right. So if they got wet, we get wet.


>
> I personally know of >

I'm sure we all know stories but we don't air them in public. We work within
to change things for the better.




> please regard I'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn I
> did it way back then, and yes compromises are made.
> show me a Californian AMM member who traps in his
> homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a
> offical employee.

If your not picking on someone then what is up? Your on a terror for some
reason. You can't legally trap in WA. state anymore either but that won't
keep you from meeting the challenge of "being able to demonstrate your
ability", which is what is called for.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:33:13 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

Clint, my man, your post is very nearly gibberish.  The rambling examples
you cite are largely a steaming pile of  mis-information, mild slander and
general nonsense.   I could go on, but I won't.
Lanney Ratcliff
AMM #1585

- ----- Original Message -----

From: "Clint Garrett" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article


>
> i hardily agree that we can not be 100 % period.  most
> of us will have fillings or surgerys that aren't
> period on our persons.  our bodies have digested non
> organic substances to become what it is.  everything
> is different, evolution and devolution goes on.
>
> but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a
> pre 1840 period and match the standards of those
> mountainerrs gone under.  i too as a greenhorn
> cany-ace/ass tenterfoot in my 1st year used
> 'thompson's water seal'.  but the point of
> buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp.
>
> i'm not saying we have to go become poachers as they
> were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they
> niggered/worked for.  but are we not supposed to
> emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorius
> or non-romanticly done.
>
> i personally know of brigades whom now compromise AMM
> standards by riding modern roping saddles when they
> are members grossing 50 to 75 K a year.  or other
> cases where a texan AMM member shot a squierel wired
> down beforehand and he tanned/brained it's skin.  BUT
> ARE THEASE EXAMPLES WORTHY OF EMULATING AND RECREATING
> THE FUR TRADE MYTH????????
>
> please regard i'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn i
> did it way back then, and yes compromises are made.
> show me a californian AMM member who traps in his
> homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a
> offical employee.  i realize the skirts have ruined
> that states ecology and have an effect on all of us.
>
> i realize buckskinning to joe normal seems fanatical.
> but then AMM did should represent the die hard zealots
> of the fur trade myth.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:48:01 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.

Clint Garrett wrote in part:

to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
the ground of their tipis; but where is the
documentation either in print or art?

For several years I have worked at finding things in the period writings
like the use of canvas.  Or to figure out how they did things and if I
could do it the same way.  It has been a labor of love; if I am supposed
to be offended by terms like ædocument zealotsÆ it hasnÆt worked.
Thank you!

Wynn Ormond


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Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:56:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps

Too much guessing, not enough researching...

"We then traveled that day about fifty milesand thought that we had got clear
of the Indians. We camped on a beautiful stream, one of the tributaries of
the Arkansas. During the nightwe had our best animals staked. We had with us
a very watchful dog and during the nighthe kept continually barking. We were
aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch... About an hour after
we left, a large party of Indians charged the camp running off all the loose
animals. Four men immediately mounted four of the best animals and followed
and in a short time overtook the Indians and recaptured all of the animals.
One of the four was severely wounded in the affray.  One Indian was killed."
DEAR OLD KIT (from the "Autobiography of Kit Carson") p. 56-57.

This incident was in 1833 in the mountains west of Colo. Spgs.  No matter how
many primary references people make PROVING that dogs were not at all
uncommon in trappers' camps, so people will just keep right on guessing
instead of reading.

John R. Sweet

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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 05:19:11 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps

Thanks John,
  That's one I had read and couldn't remember where I had read it.
If my memory serves me, years ago I read a similar incident in Gerard's
Wahtoya and the Taos Trail. But I ain't sure and I can't find my darn book.
Don Secondine



>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps
>Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:56:25 EST
>
>Too much guessing, not enough researching...
>
>"We then traveled that day about fifty milesand thought that we had got
>clear
>of the Indians. We camped on a beautiful stream, one of the tributaries of
>the Arkansas. During the nightwe had our best animals staked. We had with
>us
>a very watchful dog and during the nighthe kept continually barking. We
>were
>aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch... About an hour after
>we left, a large party of Indians charged the camp running off all the
>loose
>animals. Four men immediately mounted four of the best animals and followed
>and in a short time overtook the Indians and recaptured all of the animals.
>One of the four was severely wounded in the affray.  One Indian was
>killed."
>DEAR OLD KIT (from the "Autobiography of Kit Carson") p. 56-57.
>
>This incident was in 1833 in the mountains west of Colo. Spgs.  No matter
>how
>many primary references people make PROVING that dogs were not at all
>uncommon in trappers' camps, so people will just keep right on guessing
>instead of reading.
>
>John R. Sweet
>
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>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 05:55:25 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.

Mike,

I think many just see the years that the individual was in the field and
think that they died shortly after or at the end of the time that career
ended, not realizing that a large number returned to the settlements and
lived long lives for the time - doing other things, you made a good point.
Put me down for your new book, should be interesting as all your articles
have been, thanks for your time bud.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Moore" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.


> Clint,
>     Oh, I must say one of my pet peeves. This one is about the normal
> ages of the men in the west during the fur trade. Actually, the median
> age when most of the men died was about 66 years. Which is only
> slightly less tha what it is today. People were killed young, but majority
> of them lived good long lives.You can find this
> age put forth in the Hafen's last book of his set in "A Statical Review"
> by Richard Fehrman (pages 9 -14, volume 10). He takes all 280+ men
> wrote about in the ten volumes and gives alot of useful information, on e
> of which is the average age of death.  I went alittle further in
> a chapter in my book due out in Jan/ Feb about this subject. Some did
> die young. Pilgrims and ones who only lasted a year or two in the west
> did not have a long life. But many found the west to be a place that made
> them
> stronger and healthier.
>     Most did have joint problems, healed old wounds and scars from run ins
> with various creatures and people, but the were tough. If any would like
to
>
> to have a copy of the chapter I did on it, let me know.
> I will include here a note by Washington Irnving from "A Tour of the
> Prairies"
> pages 160-161. It is a note on the guide of his who lived in the west all
> of his
> life.
> October 27,
>      Our man Beatte had come out of his contest with the bear very much
> worsted and discomfited. His drenching in the brook, together with the
> recent change of weather, had brought on rheumatic pains in his limbs, to
> which he is subject. Though ordinarily a fellow of undaunted spirit, and
> above all hardship, yet he now sat down by the fire, gloomy and dejected,
> and for once gave way to repining. Though in the prime of life, and of a
> robust frame, and apparently iron constitution, yet, by his own account,
he
> was little better than a mere wreck. He was, in fact, a living monument of
> the hardships of wild frontier life. Baring his left arm, he showed it
> warped and contracted by a former attack of rheumatism; a malady with
which
> the Indians are often afflicted; for their exposure to the vicissitudes of
> the elements does not produce that perfect hardihood and insensibility to
> the changes of the seasons that many are apt to imagine. He bore the scars
> of various maims and bruises; some received in hunting, some in Indian
> warfare. His right arm had been broken by a fall from his horse; at
another
> time his steed had fallen with him, and crushed his left leg.
>      "I am all broke to pieces and good for nothing," said he; "I no care
> now what happen to me any more."  "However," added he, after a moment's
> pause, "for all that, it would take a pretty strong man to put me down,
> anyhow."
>                                           mike.
>


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 05:56:37 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

Amen,

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
To: "History List" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article


> Clint, my man, your post is very nearly gibberish.  The rambling examples
> you cite are largely a steaming pile of  mis-information, mild slander and
> general nonsense.   I could go on, but I won't.
> Lanney Ratcliff
> AMM #1585
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:01:16 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

Apparently this gentleman believes what some of today's writers put down
years ago as being documented  and correct (when it's a combination of their
ideas and others), there are those that write to just sell their wares, then
there are those that state documented proof w/references of what they are
writing about, the gentleman he refers to was known for poor documentation
in the early 1980's (he was learning his trade at that time, many of us
remember how he thought a TC Hawkin was close to a weapon of choice <GG>),
after a few butt chewing about this and other misleading statements made in
the very early years of his wonderings, he has got down to "covering his
tracks" with good documentation, honing his woodsman skills, getting out on
the ground (writing included) to what we have today, a pretty damn good
woodsman, writer and personal friend.

All is a learning process that we all should be following, the key word is
RESEARCH, RESEARCH and then more RESEARCH, old writers/researchers worth
their salt usually started their careers researching first then wanting to
share their new learned knowledge started writing, seems many get the
process ass-backward. If Charley Hanson was alive he would be in the middle
of this telling you the same thing Clint, a good example of good solid
research is Mike Moore, seen by his last post - his journey started with an
interest, research and then writing. Mike will tell you the RESEARCH never
ends and what you found today as being the way it was, could change tomorrow
because of more RESEARCH.

Sorry for the lengthy rambling members.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas


>
> > back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me
> > that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among
> > they each started out with 12 sheepskins.  as bedding
> > then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests,
> > ect.
>
>
> Clint,
>
> I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they
will
> last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole
year,
> I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and
> flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and
smoked
> robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins?
>
> >
> > baker didn't say the following but it only stands to
> > reason as i have discussed with others, that plews
> > replaced the sheep skins.
>
> No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper
> would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for
> beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would
> anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs
are
> just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and
> then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit.
>
> > as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented
> > documentation as of yet it only makes sense that
> > tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or
> > something was utilized to keep em out of dampness.
>
> Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more
> like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. <G>
>
>
> > even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know
> > something other than being cold and damp was done.
> > somethings were so common knowledghe they were not
> > recorded.
>
> Then they did not record it. But I doubt that.
>
> >
> > to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
> > lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
> > the ground of their tipis; but where is the
> > documentation either in print or art?
>
> How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the
> lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other
> "Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings
for
> their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote
> it down but somehow the secret got out.
>
>   yet, i found a
> > reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of
> > what their grandparents had told them.
>
> That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn.
Of
> course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe
our
> eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation
today.
>
>  the only
> > trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy
> > smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with
> > wolves'
>
> What did they have to say?
>
> .
> >
> > BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD
> > DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL.  SO YE CAN GIT
> > YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE
> > AND GRAB A FEW.  I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO
> > BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET
> > RESISTANT CANVAS.
>
> Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were
> available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter
> by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas
> will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it.
>
>
> >
> > IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'?
> > OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ.
>
> Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up
to
> the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built
plank
> boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a
lousy
> waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner
for
> a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried
on
> in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was
> almost always available.
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:16:01 -0800
From: Rick Guglielmi <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon

My name is Rick Guglielmi, I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about
a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get
involved.  Black Powder, reenacting, treking or what ever you call it is
not new to myself, however for the past 4 years due to personal matters, I
have not been active in this area.  Although I have continued to do
research,  improve on my gear and take an occasional scout by myself when
the time allowed, I thought it was time to get reaquanted with other folks
who enjoy this lifestyle.

I would especially like to make contact with other folks in the Pacific
NorthWest who enjoy going on scouts/treks along with meeting at some of the
local roundyvous.  I am particularly interested in horse scouts but will on
occasion leave the mules at home and set out afoot.

It seems like I am coming up with more questions than what I have answers
for and am excited that this forum may be a way to present these
questions.  It may take me awhile to get this whole process figured out and
polish my writing skill so I get my oint across to everyone.

One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and
mules were packed during the 1800-50 period.  I have recently read several
articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single
rigged,had a breast collar, etc.  I have also seen in different
publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what
is called an aparejo packsaddle.  What I have not seen i show these saddles
were actually packed.  Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they sling
load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle.  What about the
Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but
have no idea on the way a aparejo works.

I look forward to participating in furure discussions and hearing from
folks especially from NE Oregon.

Rick


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:22:43 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon

Welcome aboard Rick, you'll find it a pretty good journey, a little ruff at
times but for most a good experience.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Guglielmi" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon


> My name is Rick Guglielmi, I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about
> a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get
> involved.  Black Powder, reenacting, treking or what ever you call it is
> not new to myself, however for the past 4 years due to personal matters, I
> have not been active in this area.  Although I have continued to do
> research,  improve on my gear and take an occasional scout by myself when
> the time allowed, I thought it was time to get reaquanted with other folks
> who enjoy this lifestyle.
>
> I would especially like to make contact with other folks in the Pacific
> NorthWest who enjoy going on scouts/treks along with meeting at some of
the
> local roundyvous.  I am particularly interested in horse scouts but will
on
> occasion leave the mules at home and set out afoot.
>
> It seems like I am coming up with more questions than what I have answers
> for and am excited that this forum may be a way to present these
> questions.  It may take me awhile to get this whole process figured out
and
> polish my writing skill so I get my oint across to everyone.
>
> One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and
> mules were packed during the 1800-50 period.  I have recently read several
> articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single
> rigged,had a breast collar, etc.  I have also seen in different
> publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what
> is called an aparejo packsaddle.  What I have not seen i show these
saddles
> were actually packed.  Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they
sling
> load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle.  What about the
> Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but
> have no idea on the way a aparejo works.
>
> I look forward to participating in furure discussions and hearing from
> folks especially from NE Oregon.
>
> Rick
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:41:48 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

Capt,
You said what I was thinking. You are right on the money.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas
>Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 5:06 PM
>

>
>> back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me
>> that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among
>> they each started out with 12 sheepskins.  as bedding
>> then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests,
>> ect.
>
>
>Clint,
>
>I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they will
>last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole year,
>I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and
>flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and smoked
>robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins?
>
>>
>> baker didn't say the following but it only stands to
>> reason as i have discussed with others, that plews
>> replaced the sheep skins.
>
>No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper
>would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for
>beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would
>anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs are
>just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and
>then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit.
>
>> as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented
>> documentation as of yet it only makes sense that
>> tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or
>> something was utilized to keep em out of dampness.
>
>Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more
>like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. <G>
>
>
>> even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know
>> something other than being cold and damp was done.
>> somethings were so common knowledghe they were not
>> recorded.
>
>Then they did not record it. But I doubt that.
>
>>
>> to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
>> lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
>> the ground of their tipis; but where is the
>> documentation either in print or art?
>
>How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the
>lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other
>"Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings for
>their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote
>it down but somehow the secret got out.
>
>  yet, i found a
>> reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of
>> what their grandparents had told them.
>
>That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn. Of
>course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe our
>eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today.
>
> the only
>> trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy
>> smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with
>> wolves'
>
>What did they have to say?
>
>.
>>
>> BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD
>> DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL.  SO YE CAN GIT
>> YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE
>> AND GRAB A FEW.  I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO
>> BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET
>> RESISTANT CANVAS.
>
>Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were
>available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter
>by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas
>will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it.
>
>
>>
>> IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'?
>> OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ.
>
>Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up to
>the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built plank
>boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a lousy
>waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner for
>a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried on
>in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was
>almost always available.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:56:58 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon

Welcome to the camp fire. Pull up a log, grab a cup of coffee, and jaw
awhile...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:54:49 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Book?

Mike ,
I saw Bucks post about a book, if you are doing a book
I definitely want a copy!  Please keep me in mind!
and when and where to ship the plews.
        Wish you the best in this Holiday time!
Take care,
Charlie


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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:10:05 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

Buck,
Very well stated, I wish I had a nickle for every time
I thought I had everything right/correct then tomorrow
came when additional RESEARCH  pointed out the
errors in my thinking.  We must keep an open mind,
and simply keep digging.  I will not live long enough
to learn all the answers, but I am sure going to work
at it while I can.

Respectfully,
Charlie Webb
AKA Old Coyote
        > Apparently this gentleman believes what some of today's writers
put
> down
> years ago as being documented  and correct (when it's a combination
> of their
> ideas and others), there are those that write to just sell their
> wares, then
> there are those that state documented proof w/references of what
> they are
> writing about, the gentleman he refers to was known for poor
> documentation
> in the early 1980's (he was learning his trade at that time, many of
> us
> remember how he thought a TC Hawkin was close to a weapon of choice
> <GG>),
> after a few butt chewing about this and other misleading statements
> made in
> the very early years of his wonderings, he has got down to "covering
> his
> tracks" with good documentation, honing his woodsman skills, getting
> out on
> the ground (writing included) to what we have today, a pretty damn
> good
> woodsman, writer and personal friend.
>
> All is a learning process that we all should be following, the key
> word is
> RESEARCH, RESEARCH and then more RESEARCH, old writers/researchers
> worth
> their salt usually started their careers researching first then
> wanting to
> share their new learned knowledge started writing, seems many get
> the
> process ass-backward. If Charley Hanson was alive he would be in the
> middle
> of this telling you the same thing Clint, a good example of good
> solid
> research is Mike Moore, seen by his last post - his journey started
> with an
> interest, research and then writing. Mike will tell you the RESEARCH
> never
> ends and what you found today as being the way it was, could change
> tomorrow
> because of more RESEARCH.
>
> Sorry for the lengthy rambling members.
>
> Take care,
> Buck Conner
> "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

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