ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n905

Internet Message Format | 2001-12-16 | 31KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #905
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Monday, December 17 2001       Volume 01 : Number 905



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas
-áááááá MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:56:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

In a message dated 12/14/01 9:46:57 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a buffalo

running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like taking

a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. >>

Haaaaa......you mean ya got more than one gun!!!!!?!

Magpie

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 00:03:33 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont

Buck,
  Yes sir, your Lenape is correct. And thanks for the new site addresses.
When ya see Ken, tell him I moved to Ohio. And if you guys go to Ft.
deChartes, I'll see ya there.
Your friend,
Don


>From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
>Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:37:32 -0700
>
>He' Don,
>
>I'll try and run him down, Monsieur LaVelle wants to do some brain tanning
>between the holidays and we maybe able to get Ken to come down from his
>lodge. Would be a good chance to let him cleanup a bit, he's been living in
>the tipi since this past spring on government property above Boulder, has
>something about paying out money for rent, you know him - different.
>
>We did a trip from Bonnet's Mill MO early this spring down to the fort to
>see Frenchy and Hacker haven't decided about this spring, but will let you
>know. Our Party is hosting the AMM Nationals so if a trip would be in the
>works in would be after that probably in July ?
>
>Kulamali Haqh? say it - for those wanting to know (Koo-la-mal-si hahch) is
>that correct Don ? Means "Do you feel well ?" [Lennie Lenape]
>
>Nulamalsi (No-la-mal-si) - "I feel well."
>
>We have changed our URL's as [about.com] has changed their policies on size
>and amount of usage, etc. please make the needed changes to your favorite
>links, thanks.
>
>My email has also changed to Buck Conner [e-mail]
>
>New URLs are:
>
>Buck's Base Camp:  http://buckconner.tripod.com
>
>Historical Research:   http://conner110.tripod.com
>
>O'Connor/Connor/Conner History:  http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm
>
>Clark & Sons Mercantile:  just sold last summer to Paul Jones, he's added a
>bunch to the wares.
>http://www.clarkandsons.com/
>
>Daniel"Concho"Smith's site:   Historical Research & Development
>http://hrd7.tripod.com   since I retired the last of this November Concho
>has been here from PA trying to get me to do the rendezvous circuit with
>him, sounds like much work.
>
>Peter "GooseBay" Goebel:  http://goosebayworkshops.com/   Peter has moved
>to
>Delaware and now has his own web site and a retail store next to his shop.
>His email is: [e-mail]
>
>Take care,
>Buck
>"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
>---------------------------------------------------
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:29 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
>
>
> > He' Buck,
> >   Good to hear from ya. Lost track for awhile. I see you got a new E-
>mail
> > address. No, I haven't found Ken yet. Are you fellas floatin' down the
> > Missouri to De Chartes  come green up?
> > Luppitch Knewelch,
> > Don Secondine
> >
> >
> > >From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
> > >Reply-To: [e-mail]
> > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
> > >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:02:02 -0700
> > >
> > >Hey Don,
> > >
> > >Have you heard from Ken Wee lately ?
> > >
> > >Take care,
> > >Buck Conner
> > >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
> > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:09 AM
> > >Subject: MtMan-List: Fremont
> > >
> > >
> > > > Howdy fellows,
> > > >   For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I
> > >found
> > > > Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library
>on
> > >the
> > > > Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL:
> > > >
> > > >       http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580
> > > > Enjoy the read,
> > > > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
>http://messenger.msn.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:52:37 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont

Buck...
 What email??<G>
D


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:44:14 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont

I know nothing !!!
Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont


> Buck...
>  What email??<G>
> D
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:46:50 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont

When I see Wee I'll tell "HI" from you.  Been along time to write or speak
the human language Don. Will let you know what our schedule will be for the
fort.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont


> Buck,
>   Yes sir, your Lenape is correct. And thanks for the new site addresses.
> When ya see Ken, tell him I moved to Ohio. And if you guys go to Ft.
> deChartes, I'll see ya there.
> Your friend,
> Don
>
>
> >From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
> >Reply-To: [e-mail]
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont
> >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:37:32 -0700
> >
> >Kulamali Haqh? say it - for those wanting to know (Koo-la-mal-si hahch)
is
> >that correct Don ? Means "Do you feel well ?" [Lennie Lenape]
> >
> >Nulamalsi (No-la-mal-si) - "I feel well."
> >



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:48:50 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

Many guns when we go, usually have 3-4 animals going down at the same time.
Easier to have each man carry 2 guns than have to carry his busted butt out.
<GG>.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........


>
> In a message dated 12/14/01 9:46:57 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a
buffalo
>
> running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like
taking
>
> a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. >>
>
> Haaaaa......you mean ya got more than one gun!!!!!?!
>
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:03:50 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Buff can be very unpredictable, and they can turn on a dime at full tilt.
 Amazing critters. >>

According to the park rangers up at Yellowstone, they can hit full speed from
a standing start on the second stride or in about 20 feet!  If memory serves,
"full tilt" is somewhere around 30 - 35 mph.  That's faster acceleration than
ol' John Force gets on the drag strip & a darn site faster than most of us
can run.  "Amazing" is a good word!

NM

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:38:22 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

A friend that raises buffalo to be harvested with muzzleloaders has told me
that they can catch a good quarter horse in the first 100 feet or just about
anything he knows of.  Plus they can turn on a dime and nail your butt if
you where lucky enough to side step his first charge and before you could
regain your balance when charged again.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........


> In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Buff can be very unpredictable, and they can turn on a dime at full
tilt.
>  Amazing critters. >>
>
> According to the park rangers up at Yellowstone, they can hit full speed
from
> a standing start on the second stride or in about 20 feet!  If memory
serves,
> "full tilt" is somewhere around 30 - 35 mph.  That's faster acceleration
than
> ol' John Force gets on the drag strip & a darn site faster than most of us
> can run.  "Amazing" is a good word!
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:54:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas


awright i no evurbodies tired of hearin it; but the
debate stands.

back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me
that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among
they each started out with 12 sheepskins.  as bedding
then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests,
ect.

baker didn't say the following but it only stands to
reason as i have discussed with others, that plews
replaced the sheep skins.  as they were not in quest
of coat furs as today; they were literaly 'fluff
seekers'. i mean the down not the guard hair was the
desired stuff.  so, it didn't matter if ye rolled on
em all night for months nor a little beaver fat
wallowed in.

as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented
documentation as of yet it only makes sense that
tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or
something was utilized to keep em out of dampness.
even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know
something other than being cold and damp was done.
somethings were so common knowledghe they were not
recorded.

to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
the ground of their tipis; but where is the
documentation either in print or art?  yet, i found a
reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of
what their grandparents had told them.  the only
trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy
smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with
wolves'.

BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD
DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL.  SO YE CAN GIT
YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE
AND GRAB A FEW.  I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO
BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET
RESISTANT CANVAS.

IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'?
OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:11:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.

AS FAR AS AGE MOST- YEP DIED BEFORE 30.  THE FEW LIKE
BRIDGER, CARSON AND BOoNE ARE THE RARITYS.  RHEMATISM
AND AUTHURITIS HIT EM HARD BY THE LATE 30'S AND
40'S(AGE THAT IS)as wadin streams made stiff joints.
THUS THEY WERE RETIRED.  ONE HAS TO REMEMBER IN THE
17TH CENTURY IN EUROPE TO LIVE TO 50 OR 60 MEANT YOUR
COMMUNITY EXPECTED 'YOU HAD MADE A DEAL WITH THE
DEVIL'.  INFANT MORTALITY AND DESEASE, COMPOUNDED WITH
ACCIDENTS FROM HARDSHIPS TOOK MOST EVERYONE-EARLY.
EXAMPLES LIKE COLTER SURVIVING THE WILDERNESS ONLY TO
DIE ON HIS FARM OF A COMMON DISEASE BEFORE AGE 35 ARE
MORE THE NORM THAN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.  IT MAYBE
THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY
FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'.

 Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the
longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting
shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from
canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso.
yep this was those ole buckskin shirts.  now if they
cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in
their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they
provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp
camp?

maybe tallow anyone?



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:33:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

i hardily agree that we can not be 100 % period.  most
of us will have fillings or surgerys that aren't
period on our persons.  our bodies have digested non
organic substances to become what it is.  everything
is different, evolution and devolution goes on.

but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a
pre 1840 period and match the standards of those
mountainerrs gone under.  i too as a greenhorn
cany-ace/ass tenterfoot in my 1st year used
'thompson's water seal'.  but the point of
buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp.

i'm not saying we have to go become poachers as they
were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they
niggered/worked for.  but are we not supposed to
emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorius
or non-romanticly done.

i personally know of brigades whom now compromise AMM
standards by riding modern roping saddles when they
are members grossing 50 to 75 K a year.  or other
cases where a texan AMM member shot a squierel wired
down beforehand and he tanned/brained it's skin.  BUT
ARE THEASE EXAMPLES WORTHY OF EMULATING AND RECREATING
THE FUR TRADE MYTH????????

please regard i'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn i
did it way back then, and yes compromises are made.
show me a californian AMM member who traps in his
homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a
offical employee.  i realize the skirts have ruined
that states ecology and have an effect on all of us.

i realize buckskinning to joe normal seems fanatical.
but then AMM did should represent the die hard zealots
of the fur trade myth.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:33:32 -0800
From: "Spivey, Michael" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas

How about common "Oil Cloth"?  It is just linseed (Flax) oil applied to
cloth (canvas, cotton, wool, or linen).  The linseed
oil is allowed to dry (cure) is rubbed or massaged, and in the presense of
UV it polymerizes.  Oil cloth has been around as long as linseed oil has
been used as a wood finish.

Just a thought.

Mike Spivey
Bear Gulch Mountain Men, Cucamonga, Cal



- -----Original Message-----
From: Clint Garrett [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:54 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas





awright i no evurbodies tired of hearin it; but the
debate stands.

back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me
that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among
they each started out with 12 sheepskins.  as bedding
then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests,
ect.

baker didn't say the following but it only stands to
reason as i have discussed with others, that plews
replaced the sheep skins.  as they were not in quest
of coat furs as today; they were literaly 'fluff
seekers'. i mean the down not the guard hair was the
desired stuff.  so, it didn't matter if ye rolled on
em all night for months nor a little beaver fat
wallowed in.

as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented
documentation as of yet it only makes sense that
tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or
something was utilized to keep em out of dampness.
even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know
something other than being cold and damp was done.
somethings were so common knowledghe they were not
recorded.

to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
the ground of their tipis; but where is the
documentation either in print or art?  yet, i found a
reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of
what their grandparents had told them.  the only
trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy
smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with
wolves'.

BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD
DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL.  SO YE CAN GIT
YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE
AND GRAB A FEW.  I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO
BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET
RESISTANT CANVAS.

IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'?
OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:48:18 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID.

Clint,
    Oh, I must say one of my pet peeves. This one is about the normal
ages of the men in the west during the fur trade. Actually, the median
age when most of the men died was about 66 years. Which is only
slightly less tha what it is today. People were killed young, but majority
of them lived good long lives.You can find this
age put forth in the Hafen's last book of his set in "A Statical Review"
by Richard Fehrman (pages 9 -14, volume 10). He takes all 280+ men
wrote about in the ten volumes and gives alot of useful information, on e
of which is the average age of death.  I went alittle further in
a chapter in my book due out in Jan/ Feb about this subject. Some did
die young. Pilgrims and ones who only lasted a year or two in the west
did not have a long life. But many found the west to be a place that made
them
stronger and healthier.
    Most did have joint problems, healed old wounds and scars from run ins
with various creatures and people, but the were tough. If any would like to

to have a copy of the chapter I did on it, let me know.
I will include here a note by Washington Irnving from "A Tour of the
Prairies"
pages 160-161. It is a note on the guide of his who lived in the west all
of his
life.
October 27,
     Our man Beatte had come out of his contest with the bear very much
worsted and discomfited. His drenching in the brook, together with the
recent change of weather, had brought on rheumatic pains in his limbs, to
which he is subject. Though ordinarily a fellow of undaunted spirit, and
above all hardship, yet he now sat down by the fire, gloomy and dejected,
and for once gave way to repining. Though in the prime of life, and of a
robust frame, and apparently iron constitution, yet, by his own account, he
was little better than a mere wreck. He was, in fact, a living monument of
the hardships of wild frontier life. Baring his left arm, he showed it
warped and contracted by a former attack of rheumatism; a malady with which
the Indians are often afflicted; for their exposure to the vicissitudes of
the elements does not produce that perfect hardihood and insensibility to
the changes of the seasons that many are apt to imagine. He bore the scars
of various maims and bruises; some received in hunting, some in Indian
warfare. His right arm had been broken by a fall from his horse; at another
time his steed had fallen with him, and crushed his left leg.
     "I am all broke to pieces and good for nothing," said he; "I no care
now what happen to me any more."  "However," added he, after a moment's
pause, "for all that, it would take a pretty strong man to put me down,
anyhow."
                                          mike.

Clint Garrett wrote:

> AS FAR AS AGE MOST- YEP DIED BEFORE 30.  THE FEW LIKE
> BRIDGER, CARSON AND BOoNE ARE THE RARITYS.  RHEMATISM
> AND AUTHURITIS HIT EM HARD BY THE LATE 30'S AND
> 40'S(AGE THAT IS)as wadin streams made stiff joints.
> THUS THEY WERE RETIRED.  ONE HAS TO REMEMBER IN THE
> 17TH CENTURY IN EUROPE TO LIVE TO 50 OR 60 MEANT YOUR
> COMMUNITY EXPECTED 'YOU HAD MADE A DEAL WITH THE
> DEVIL'.  INFANT MORTALITY AND DESEASE, COMPOUNDED WITH
> ACCIDENTS FROM HARDSHIPS TOOK MOST EVERYONE-EARLY.
> EXAMPLES LIKE COLTER SURVIVING THE WILDERNESS ONLY TO
> DIE ON HIS FARM OF A COMMON DISEASE BEFORE AGE 35 ARE
> MORE THE NORM THAN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.  IT MAYBE
> THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY
> FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'.
>
>  Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the
> longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting
> shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from
> canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso.
> yep this was those ole buckskin shirts.  now if they
> cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in
> their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they
> provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp
> camp?
>
> maybe tallow anyone?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:06:53 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas

> back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me
> that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among
> they each started out with 12 sheepskins.  as bedding
> then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests,
> ect.


Clint,

I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they will
last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole year,
I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and
flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and smoked
robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins?

>
> baker didn't say the following but it only stands to
> reason as i have discussed with others, that plews
> replaced the sheep skins.

No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper
would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for
beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would
anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs are
just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and
then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit.

> as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented
> documentation as of yet it only makes sense that
> tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or
> something was utilized to keep em out of dampness.

Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more
like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. <G>


> even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know
> something other than being cold and damp was done.
> somethings were so common knowledghe they were not
> recorded.

Then they did not record it. But I doubt that.

>
> to give an example to the 'document zealots' the
> lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover
> the ground of their tipis; but where is the
> documentation either in print or art?

How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the
lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other
"Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings for
their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote
it down but somehow the secret got out.

  yet, i found a
> reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of
> what their grandparents had told them.

That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn. Of
course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe our
eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today.

 the only
> trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy
> smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with
> wolves'

What did they have to say?

.
>
> BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD
> DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL.  SO YE CAN GIT
> YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE
> AND GRAB A FEW.  I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO
> BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET
> RESISTANT CANVAS.

Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were
available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter
by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas
will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it.


>
> IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'?
> OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ.

Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up to
the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built plank
boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a lousy
waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner for
a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried on
in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was
almost always available.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #905
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.