ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n903

Internet Message Format | 2001-12-13 | 42KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #903
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest       Friday, December 14 2001       Volume 01 : Number 903



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/Trade Blanket Lists
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger
-áááááá MtMan-List: One more pig recipe
-áááááá MtMan-List: Period fishing gear
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re shelters, canvas and living outdoors
-áááááá MtMan-List: Canvas
-áááááá MtMan-List: poster...off topic
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:04:31 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/Trade Blanket Lists

Ladies & Gentlemen,

I have lost my "favorite links" list and am looking for the trade blanket
lists (URL) that one could use to buy or sell muzzleloading items on, got
them from you folks a few years ago, can anyone help - they sure worked.

As far as treated material being used for a rapping or packaging item, look
at some of the government contracts for weapons, ex: Hanson has shown in
several of his articles in the museum Quarterlies that different
manufacturers of different guns sent those weapons per their contract in an
"oiled wrap or sleeve". Again if one will look at some of the trade lists
you'll find "tinware" wrapped in a protective covering ("oiled wrap or
sleeve" ?).  Makes sense !

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:17 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger


>I would further propose that historically these treated materials were used
> more commonly for "packaging" rather than for shelters. I'm sure that some
> treated materials were used for shelters and that many of those treated
> packaging pieces would later be recycled and used for shelters. The only
> other use/advantage I would see for treated material would be for a ground
> cloth. These are just my suppositions and I don't have any documentation.
I
> do think that it would be a good research item for someone to look into.
>
> Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:46:14 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger

Capt Lahti.
Your entire post is very well stated,  the best I believe I
have ever read on this subject.  Thank you for your efforts!
Old Coyote


> Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to
> use. You
> just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do
> that with
> untreated either.
>
> My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your
> period
> shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who
> have
> searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly
> woven
> cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and
> thus
> treating such material is only adding weight to the material that
> probalby
> is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility"
> thus
> making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one
> uses
> common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques
> provide,
> one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters
> will work
> fine and be safe.
>
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:58:34 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters

   I too have found light, tightly woven canvas (such as a painter's drop
cloth) to be a good shelter in the rain, and much lighter than oil cloth.
The historical references mention skins or blankets draped over branches or
leafy bowers. I've done this with my canvas, or draped it over rope or ridge
pole, as conditions dictate, with acceptable results. Let's not forget that
the historical mountain men were able to shoot game animals frequently, and
probably had a surplus of green skins that could be used for shelter, over
and above their clothing needs. I admit to the use of a treated canvas
around my bedroll, which adds comfort and insurance against any minor
leakage from my untreated shelter, but I believe once you have lived in the
woods for many weeks, you become accustomed to being somewhat damp and
greasy, and such luxuries are less important. And again - there would have
been furs and skins that could be left behind after being used in prolonged
rain.
   Our conditions are different, we need to backpack our stuff and save it
for next time, so there is greater incentive to use waterproofed material of
a reasonably historic sort. I personally don't carry a heavy oiled canvas as
a shelter, but I don't live in a chronically rainy area either.
Pat Quilter

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:06:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001

In a message dated 12/11/01 9:58:08 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< They are running on 6 or

more years old now. So I submit that deterioration of treated cloth is not a

given. >>

I've only got 6-7 months on my oil cloth using linseed oil and yellow iron
oxide, and it still looks new, . I know of some tarps several years old made
in the same manner that have not "deteriorated" yet, so I question Mark's
statement...

Ymos,
Magpie

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:23:32 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger

Thank you Old Coyote.


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Webb" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger


> Capt Lahti.
> Your entire post is very well stated,  the best I believe I
> have ever read on this subject.  Thank you for your efforts!
> Old Coyote
>
>
> > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to
> > use. You
> > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do
> > that with
> > untreated either.
> >
> > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your
> > period
> > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who
> > have
> > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly
> > woven
> > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and
> > thus
> > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that
> > probalby
> > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility"
> > thus
> > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one
> > uses
> > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques
> > provide,
> > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters
> > will work
> > fine and be safe.
> >
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:48:28 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

Clint,
  I have a different perspective on oilcloth, given that I'm from a
different part of the country than the others who have responded.
  You are right about The Ashley Men not using oilcloth .  Also, if you
check the records, I believe you'll find there was little or no cloth or
canvas of any kind taken to the rocky mountains, in the early years.
  My thoughts on oilcloth are that it's use depends on what area of the
country you are in.  Many of us live, work, rendezvous, hunt, trek, etc. in
areas where 40+ inches of rainfall  annually are typical, and virtually none
of it is freezing precipitation.  In our part of the country, 35 to 40
degree weather with slow rain for days on end is very common, in winter.
Staying relatively dry in that type of weather is REAL important.
  As you and others have stated, untreated canvas will shed water, if it's
put up right.  You can build yourself a bed out of leaves to get you off the
ground to keep the water from getting to your blankets, but you need to get
that done before it starts to rain.  ( something that is not usually an
option )
  I have used treated canvas and homemade oilcloth without any problems for
many years.  In fact I have never seen anyone have a treated canvas or
oilcloth treking shelter catch fire.  I'm not saying it can't or won't
happen.  Hell, ain't anything 100 % mountain man, or cowboy proof .
  Our forefathers had the materials and the knowledge needed to make
oilcloth, and I feel they did in climates where it was appropriate.  Besides
that, we just aren't nearly as tough as they were.  The very best of us
wouldn't make a pimple on Bridger's arse.  Not saying we shouldn't strive to
be as historically accurate as possible, but the fact is we live in a
totally different world.  I don't think it is wrong to use a water-resistant
shelter in order to be able to get up and go to work on mon. morning.
  My $0.02 worth,

Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:54:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas

Whoa, here a minute, somethin just clicked with the
post about multi use tarps, and packing.

Reading through Osbourne Russel and other Journals,
one notes that when packs and such were doused in
river crossings and such, much time was taken to
unpack and dry the beaver.  It makes sense that some
waterproof covering for the furry dollars would have
been sought out by the trappers, and possibly used
primarily to keep rain and snow from them, and
secondarily as a shelter. Trated canvas would
definately keeped packed goods drier than untreated
due to the fact that the canvas is going to touch the
stuff to packed on your mule or horse.

As for those who replied on the pig roastin, thanks.
I was really gonna do a Sandwich islander style pig,
but you southern boys sound like you have a damn good
method for BBQ, probably better than the in ground
method, now I might have to fill in my pit and do it
the SC way. Hell, its better than the Sandwich
islander method just because you have to stay up all
night drinkin in order to keep the fire stoked! properly

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:08:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

In a message dated 12/12/01 10:36:12 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< according to baker and other sources the problem with
oil cloth is that it is very flamable. >>

Hummm....again, I don't know where Baker is getting his information. AFTER
the oil cloth is dry, it doesn't burn any easier than straight canvas. I ran
some tests on sample pieces and reported the results to the List awhile
back....may well be the iron oxide is somewhat of a fire retardant...

Ymos,
Magpie

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:45:46 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger

Unfortunately, when you need a shelter most is also when you most need
to shed water from your trade goods. I >have< read, in multiple sources,
that pack goods were "waterproof packed" but the how, I think, varied
widely. Voyagers had this one whupped long before the RMFT, you betcha.
But unwaterproofing yer trade goods to turn a little water off yer hide?
Naw! Warn't gointa melt, darn yer hide. And trade goods soiled didn't
catch the squaws eye or catch the winter plew, so (to quote a lardacious
Texican), "Hell NAW."

B'st'rd

Clint Garrett wrote:
>
> this very topic of packaging your goods or tying it to
> the packsaddle came up at the POLEBRIDGE RENDEZVOUS
> this summer.  the conversation was at a packsaddle
> makers trade blanket.  the consensus became that the
> ground cloth and shelter were the packaging covers.
> it was seen that there was no use carrying any extra
> weight or matewrial to cover your gear.  one had only
> so many animals to carry his gear; why add items when
> you can utilize things for multi different purposes.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:10:30 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: One more pig recipe

Chris
One more pig roasting suggestion.  I read about this many years ago and, in
truth, never used it...primarily because I have never gotten around to
cooking a whole pig.  If this is a duplication of something somebody else
sent it's because I didn't see the other post due to my computer giving me
some troubles lately.....fixed now, hopefully.

Dig a fire pit...trough, actually..... a couple of feet longer than the pig
and build a big hardwood fire in it, allowing it to burn down to coals.  Or
dump a lot of charcoal in the pit and light it.  Put up two sturdy "Y" posts
near each end of the pit but a foot or two to one side.  Truss  the pig to a
long pole (or steel rod) with a crank at one end, with the pole entering the
pig at one end and coming out of the other with the legs tied up close to
the body (so they won't burn off).  Suspend the pig between the two "Y"
posts so that the pig is near (but not actually over) the fire pit and
parallel to it.  Turn the pig slowly and mop  it with a mixture of cooking
oil & apricot jam until done.  Hours, probably. The pig will cook  and all
the drippings will end up on the ground, not in the fire, preventing
flare-ups and nasty smoke from the burning grease.  Any number of mopping
concoctions would probably work just fine.  Nothing at all would also work.
The recipe came from a magazine article about a hunting club somewhere that
roasted a pig in this manner every year.  I think they hired a couple of
school boys to turn the pig...sounds like a lot of work.  Grown men might do
it if sufficient adult beverages were made available.
I will try this one of these days.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:58:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Period fishing gear

I think it was Ole, looking for some references on fishing in during the Fur
Trade...
I just read an interesting account from John K. Townsend in "Narrative of a
Journey Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River". Townsend was an
ornithologist (likes birds) that accompanied Nathaniel Wyeth in 1834....

On Ross's creek, a tributary of the Portneuf...  "....and the stream contains
an abundance of excellent trout. Some of these are enormous, and very fine
eating. They bite eagerly at a grasshopper or minnow, but the largest fish
are shy, and the sportsman requires to be carefully concealed in order to
take them. We have here none of the fine tackle, jointed rods, reels, and
silkworm gut of the accomplished city sportsman; we have only a piece of
common cord, and a hook seized on with half-hitches, with a willow rod cut on
the banks of the stream; but with this rough equipment we take as many trout
as we wish, and who could do more, even with all the curious contrivances of
old Izaac Walton or Christopher North?"

Looks like a willow rod, and a grasshopper stuck on a half-hitched hook would
be PC.....<G>

Ymos,
Magpie

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:34:01 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article

Clint,
  I have a different perspective on oilcloth, given that I'm from a
different part of the country than the others who have responded.
  You are right about The Ashley Men not using oilcloth .  Also, if you
check the records, I believe you'll find there was little or no cloth or
canvas of any kind taken to the rocky mountains, in the early years.
  My thoughts on oilcloth are that it's use depends on what area of the
country you are in.  Many of us live, work, rendezvous, hunt, trek, etc. in
areas where 40+ inches of rainfall  annually are typical, and virtually none
of it is freezing precipitation.  In our part of the country, 35 to 40
degree weather with slow rain for days on end is very common, in winter.
Staying relatively dry in that type of weather is REAL important.
  As you and others have stated, untreated canvas will shed water, if it's
put up right.  You can build yourself a bed out of leaves to get you off the
ground to keep the water from getting to your blankets, but you need to get
that done before it starts to rain.  ( something that is not usually an
option )
  I have used treated canvas and homemade oilcloth without any problems for
many years.  In fact I have never seen anyone have a treated canvas or
oilcloth treking shelter catch fire.  I'm not saying it can't or won't
happen.  Hell, ain't anything 100 % mountain man, or cowboy proof .
  Our forefathers had the materials and the knowledge needed to make
oilcloth, and I feel they did in climates where it was appropriate.  Besides
that, we just aren't nearly as tough as they were.  The very best of us
wouldn't make a pimple on Bridger's arse.  Not saying we shouldn't strive to
be as historically accurate as possible, but the fact is we live in a
totally different world.  I don't think it is wrong to use a water-resistant
shelter in order to be able to get up and go to work on mon. morning.
  My $0.02 worth,

Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:16:25 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey Charlie,

Why are you guys messing with all these different things to age brass =
when your shooting black powder, use your dirty wet cleaning patches and =
wipe the brass to the appearance you want, wipe it enough and it will =
get close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old method that I saw =
and was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner Kirkland's old =
Dixie Gun Works catalogs.

Take care,
Buck Conner

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Charlie Webb=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 12:01 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

  Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end
  product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that has
  submitted a method for a patina  look for brass furniture
  has written that after the application of their favorite=20
  agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the brass
  part to the desired look.  The desired look and the finished
  part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is not a
  true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close
  to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap")


- ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=3D0 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0 =
rightMargin=3D3>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Hey Charlie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Why are you guys messing =
with all these=20
different things to age brass when your shooting black powder, use your =
dirty=20
wet cleaning patches and wipe the brass to the appearance you want, =
wipe it=20
enough and it will get close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old =
method=20
that I saw and was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner =
Kirkland's=20
old Dixie Gun Works catalogs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Take care,<BR>Buck=20
Conner<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>"Eternal vigilance is the =
price of=20
liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail] =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Charlie Webb</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 08, =
2001 12:01=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: brass=20
parts</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end</DIV>
  <DIV>product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that =
has</DIV>
  <DIV>submitted a method for a patina  look for brass =
furniture</DIV>
  <DIV>has written that after the application of their favorite </DIV>
  <DIV>agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the =
brass</DIV>
  <DIV>part to the desired look.  The desired look and the =
finished</DIV>
  <DIV>part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is =
not=20
  a</DIV>
  <DIV>true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close</DIV>
  <DIV>to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like =
crap")</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0--


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:29:08 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........

What Mike says is so true, saw a kid with a TC 45 cal. take the 1st shot on
Dad's 2000 lb. bull (Dad being a good guy and all) and drop it cold, then I
have had a cow go nuts and try and run everything down that moved and take 6
shots to kill her, my mistake had several gut shots in all the excitement.

Again as Mike has mentioned don't ever miss a chance to go on a buff hunt.
Someone mentioned Jack Garner - took him on his first buff hunt along with
Glen Jones and Freddie Harris (all gun builders from the south), little
different than shootin' little southern deer for those boys, lots of gut
shots, biggest problem is they stand there and look and don't reload until
you slap them in the butt with a ramrod <GG>.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Moore" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........


>     It is amazing to me how different a buffalo can react when
> shot. I seen a green pilgrim with a 50 cal TC knock one down
> and not have his get up. And then I been in chases when on foot and in a
> truck that took four hours in snow/rain/sleet to get him. I know of
friends
> which have had them charge when shot- aah, just like the old days!
>     Any time that you have a chance to go on a buffalo hunt do it.
> Nothing can teach you more about history than doing it. I am still amazed
> at how much blood a single animal can hold. But the chase, the meat and
> good friends can make for a experience that lasts a life time.
>                                 mike.
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> > [e-mail] writes:
> >
> > <<   I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to
work
> > on
> >  the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of
killing.
> >  >>
> >
> > A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal.  Took 8
shots
> > before it fell.  He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how.
Autopsy
> > showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs.  Yep!  I'd say they were a
might
> > tough to kill!
> >
> > NM
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:35:00 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........

NM,
I have taken 8 buffalo with tradeguns, 2 with rifled guns and 2 with a
Sharps 40/70 2-1/10 bottleneck and 400 grain bullet, I'll take a tradegun
every time, it's hard to beat those .600 round balls with 85 grains of 3F.

Take care,
Buck Conner

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........


> In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<   I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to
work  on
>  the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of
killing.
>  >>
>
> A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal.  Took 8 shots
> before it fell.  He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how.  Autopsy
> showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs.  Yep!  I'd say they were a might
> tough to kill!
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:45:33 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

Magpie,

NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a buffalo
running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like taking
a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. Believe me
the old timers had several guns (if not back up shooters) when meat hunting
or on a stand, do the same, I always take a pair of guns (tradeguns), and
practice shooting the main gun - then laying it down to the side of you (so
you don't fall over it) and knowing where the second weapon is with out
taking your eyes off your target and then make the second shot. Like
shooting anything, with the 1st hit the game is starting to good into shock,
so hit it again fast before it has a chance to get it's second wind, that's
when the crap hits the fan. Been there - done that.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:45 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........


>
> In a message dated 12/7/01 11:52:40 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The
> .62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from  >>
>
> Don't dispair Mitch! I've shot moose, caribou, deer and bear with a 50cal
> flinter, and it's a rare thing to "drop" them. All the old reports I've
read
> on shooting buffalo, indicates they're pretty darn tuff. On the big mean
one,
> reload fast......<G>
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:19:14 -0800
From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Quilter" <[e-mail]>


> I admit to the use of a treated canvas
> around my bedroll, which adds comfort and insurance against any minor
> leakage from my untreated shelter, but I believe once you have lived in
the
> woods for many weeks, you become accustomed to being somewhat damp and
> greasy, and such luxuries are less important.

I read with interest the above post.  I recall a summer long past in the
Pacific Northwest, where I walked with M16 in hand and rain soaking me from
morning to night (Fort Lewis), June through August.  After the first week,
none of us noticed the rain anymore, it was just part of life.  We didn't
even notice each other's smell.... until we finally got showers.  Course...
I was 20 then....

I do have a treated canvas 10x10.... nowadays I usually roll my blankets up
in it, and sleep under stars or a tight stretched untreated canvas.

Regards from Idaho

Lee


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:49:59 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re shelters, canvas and living outdoors

Lee Newbill wrote:

<< I recall a summer long past in the Pacific Northwest, where I walked with
M16 in hand and rain soaking me from morning to night (Fort Lewis), June
through August.  After the first week, none of us noticed the rain anymore,
it was just part of life.  We didn't even notice each other's smell....
until we finally got showers.  Course... I was 20 then.... >>

I have made it past that first week and experienced this effect, but not for
a whole summer. This kind of first-person input is very much in keeping with
the spirit of "living history" and why some of us try to be "modern mountain
men" if only for brief periods. "Non-period" episodes of prolonged roughing
it are valuable for this reason. When I was getting started, people told me
that being comfortable in primitive conditions was as much a matter of
attitude as physical training. I have found that much of "acclimatizing" is
in simply knowing what to expect, (or not expect), rather than physical
hardiness as such. One needs to be in minimum condition to get along, but
"being prepared" for typical conditions and their effects seems to matter
more.

And regarding the "20's effect" - let us not forget most of the mountain men
were about that age in their heyday. Daniel Boone came out west in his 80's,
but my general impression is that mountain men retired from the wilderness
by the age of 50 or so. We can do better these days since we stay out only
briefly and have many comforts and aids in between, but the "aging of the
corps" is a notable problem. Let's hope we can continue to get young people
interested in experiencing the glory of the wilderness on its own terms.

Pat Quilter


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:18:46 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas

I have tried to find some evidence of canvas or some such documentation
in bedding to no avail.  On a horse trip with the Poison River Party in
99 I slept on blankets alone.  It only rained during the day and I never
slept any the worse but it was pleasant weather.  But damn the debris;
all kinds of grass and plant material, pieces of bark, and dirt.  It
got all over the blankets and had to be cleaned off before saddling up.
Here is RuxtonÆs commentary:

We ourselves suffered extremely, turning constantly, and rolling almost
into the embers of the scanty fire; and towards daybreak I really
thought I should have frozen bodily. My bedding consisted of two
blankets -one of them a very thin one, which was all I had between my
body and the snow; and the other, first soaked with the sleet and
afterwards frozen stiff and hard, was more like a board than a blanket,
and was in that state no protection against the cold

It appears clear that he claimed to not have the protection of canvas
but he did start out in Mexico and used the Mexican method of packing
his horses not a sawbuck.  If I remember Russell also bragged of the one
blanket theory with no meantion of a ground cloth.  Even Zenas when he
quoted  FitspatrickÆs tale of escape from the Indians says ô. The loss
of my blanket was also severe, as the weather was sometimes quite cold,
and I had no other clothing than a shirt and vest - having thrown the
rest away when pursued by the Indians on the mountain.ö  Note: it is
ôblanketö that is  meantioned many times not bedding.

I know the arguments that logic dictates but if we are talking
documentation I will be happy to have someone prove me wrong.

I will also state that I believe that the RMFT used to go on vacations
of sort.  On these trips to hunt, explore or trap they frequentally
traveled lighter than usual and I believe that it is these trips that we
often get the detailed accounts of.

Maybe they were just tougher than I am but the idea of lying down in the
snow without some kind of ground cloth is more than I can bare.  Reading
Ruxton recently it impressed on me how mentally tough they must have
been.  In my adventures I have been plenty wet and cold but I always
knew there was some kind of warmth and shelter at the end of the day if
I could get to it.  Traveling for days knowing that not only would there
be a severe camp at the end of the day but not even knowing if there was
ever going to be a cheery warm camp at journeys end is daunting beyond
belief.

Well I guess I have rambled enough.

Wynn Ormond


Wynn Ormond


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 17:15:53 -0600
From: "John & Nancy McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: poster...off topic

To all,
    I just came across a poster that you might like to own. The picture is
on page 13 of the newest Readers Digest and can be seen by going to
www.poster.rd.com It measures 22x28 inches and is a picture of a group of
firefighters hanging an American flag from a lightpost during the trade
center disaster. 7.95 covers the poster AND shipping and handling. The
article says that the poster is offered on a not for profit basis. Least we
not forget.  Thanks for this opportunity,     John




- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:22:51 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Buck,
Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original
post.  The other stuff  mentioned does work,
but why go out and buy something when you
already can achieve the same end result with a
fouled/dirty cleaning patch.  As Hawk would
say, nuff said!
Take care,
Old Coyote




Hey Charlie,

Why are you guys messing with all these different things to age brass
when your shooting black powder, use your dirty wet cleaning patches and
wipe the brass to the appearance you want, wipe it enough and it will get
close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old method that I saw and
was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner Kirkland's old Dixie Gun
Works catalogs.

Take care,
Buck Conner

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
- ----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=3D0 bgColor=3D#ffffff leftMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0 =
rightMargin=3D3>
<DIV>Hi Buck,</DIV>
<DIV>Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original</DIV>
<DIV>post.  The other stuff  mentioned does work,</DIV>
<DIV>but why go out and buy something when you </DIV>
<DIV>already can achieve the same end result with a</DIV>
<DIV>fouled/dirty cleaning patch.  As Hawk would </DIV>
<DIV>say, nuff said!</DIV>
<DIV>Take care,</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid">
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Hey Charlie,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Why are you guys messing =
with all=20
  these different things to age brass when your shooting black powder, use =
your=20
  dirty wet cleaning patches and wipe the brass to the appearance you =
want,=20
  wipe it enough and it will get close to black, plus it stays on. This is =
an=20
  old method that I saw and was told about thirty years ago in one of=
=20
  Turner Kirkland's old Dixie Gun Works catalogs.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Take care,<BR>Buck=20
  Conner<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>"Eternal vigilance is the =
price of=20
  liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-=
LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE=
></BODY></HTML>

- ----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d--

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #903
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.