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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, December 11 2001      Volume 01 : Number 901



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: brass and brass
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass
-áááááá MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware
-áááááá MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator
-áááááá MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth
-áááááá MtMan-List: Apology...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware
-áááááá MtMan-List: Brass parts? Dare I ask?
-áááááá MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder
-áááááá MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:40:53 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: brass and brass

    TOF, secondly you said  <I didn't give my personal preferences.  >

    But first you said, <It looks like crap>

    That is clearly your personal preference and your opinion which was not
sought at all by the original inquirer.
    The desired effect is beauty, or otherwise, only in the eyes of the
beholder. You may state you don't like it but to demean another is very
ungentlemanly, not something respected on this list or others of similar
subjects.
    There is brass. Then there is 'brass' of another kind.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:54:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass

In a message dated 12/9/2001 8:41:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes: << You may state you don't like it but to
demean another is very ungentlemanly, not something respected on this list or
others of similar subjects. There is brass. Then there is 'brass' of another
kind. >>

WOOOHOOOO!  you go Frank.  That old shit seems to think this is his list,
too, but a couple of people rightly jumped down his throat, and I'm glad to
see it, too.   Take care,  Barney

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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:54:54 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass

oops, sorry, meant old FOX.  please forgive the indiscretion!   Barney

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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:06:54 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware

Don of the Ohio:

If others on this list will forgive me I will post it through there
since some besides you might be interested as well.  A while back you
posted asking about referances to Delewares in the mountains.  Naturally
I have watched fer their tracks since and I have a couple from Ruxton.

On what is page 35 fer me he says:

Against these same Indians a party of a dozen Shawnee and Delaware
trappers waged a long and most destructive war, until at last the Yutas
were fain to beg for peace, after losing many, of their most famous
warriors and chiefs. The cowardly Mexicans, however, have seldom
summoned courage to strike a blow in their own defence, and their savage
enemies so thoroughly despise them that they never scruple to attack
them, however large the party, or in spite of the greatest disparity in
numbers between them.

Later (pg 85)  he also makes, what for me is an interesting commentary
on racial relations.

Amongst the hunters on the Upper Arkansa were four Delaware Indians, the
remnant of a band who had been trapping for several years in the
mountains, and many of whom had been killed by hostile Indians, or in
warfare with the Apaches while in the employ of the states of New Mexico
and Chihuahua. Their names were Jim Dicky, Jim Swannick, Little Beaver,
and Big Nigger. The last had married a squaw from the Taos pueblo, and,
happening to be in New Mexico with his spouse at the time of the late
rising against the Americans, he very naturally took part with the
people by whom he had been adopted.

In the attack on the Indian pueblo it was said that Big Nigger
particularly distinguished himself, calling by name to several of the
mountain-men who were amongst the attacking party, and inviting them to
come near enough for him, the Big Nigger, to "throw them in their
tracks." And this feat he affected more than once, to the cost of the
assailants, for it was said that the Delaware killed nearly all who fell
on the side of the Americans, his squaw loading his rifle and
encouraging him in the fight.

By some means or another he escaped after the capture of the pueblo, and
made his way to the mountains on the Arkansa; but as it was reported
that a price was put upon his head, he retired in company with the other
Delawares to the mountains, where they all lay perdu for a time; and it
was pretty well understood that any one feeling inclined to reap the
reward by the capture of Big Nigger, would be under the necessity of
"taking him," and with every probability of catching a Tartar at the
same time, the three other Delawares having taken the delinquent under
the protection of their rifles. Although companions of the American and
Canadian hunters for many years, anything but an entente cordiale
existed towards their white confreres on the part of the Delawares, who
knew very well that anything in the shape of Indian blood is looked upon
with distrust and contempt by the white hunters.


  This is contridictory with the complimentary statements that Russell,
Meek, and Ferris make about the Eastern Indians that they hunt with, but
perhaps even if someone admired their ability it still was not enough
make them feel welcome or equal.

Wynn Ormond


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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:10:45 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator

<<...seems to think this is his list, >>

I was wondering, who does "own" this list?  One person or a conglomerate of individuals?  I.E. - who do we thank?


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:20:29 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator

hikingonthru wrote:
>who do we thank?

Dean Rudy doesn't get thanked enough.  Check out the resources on his site
Mountain Men and the Fur Trade.
Unbelievable.
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

Thanks, Dean.
Lanney Ratcliff



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:47:21 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware

Thanks Wynn,
  Thanks for the shared info. There is some good reading in Bent's Fort by
David Lavendar on Delaware Indians also. BTW, You mention Joe Meek, he made
the statement that he would not go into the mountains w/o Delaware trappers
in his company.
Your friend,
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country


>From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware
>Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:06:54 -0700
>
>Don of the Ohio:
>
>If others on this list will forgive me I will post it through there
>since some besides you might be interested as well.  A while back you
>posted asking about referances to Delewares in the mountains.  Naturally
>I have watched fer their tracks since and I have a couple from Ruxton.
>
>On what is page 35 fer me he says:
>
>Against these same Indians a party of a dozen Shawnee and Delaware
>trappers waged a long and most destructive war, until at last the Yutas
>were fain to beg for peace, after losing many, of their most famous
>warriors and chiefs. The cowardly Mexicans, however, have seldom
>summoned courage to strike a blow in their own defence, and their savage
>enemies so thoroughly despise them that they never scruple to attack
>them, however large the party, or in spite of the greatest disparity in
>numbers between them.
>
>Later (pg 85)  he also makes, what for me is an interesting commentary
>on racial relations.
>
>Amongst the hunters on the Upper Arkansa were four Delaware Indians, the
>remnant of a band who had been trapping for several years in the
>mountains, and many of whom had been killed by hostile Indians, or in
>warfare with the Apaches while in the employ of the states of New Mexico
>and Chihuahua. Their names were Jim Dicky, Jim Swannick, Little Beaver,
>and Big Nigger. The last had married a squaw from the Taos pueblo, and,
>happening to be in New Mexico with his spouse at the time of the late
>rising against the Americans, he very naturally took part with the
>people by whom he had been adopted.
>
>In the attack on the Indian pueblo it was said that Big Nigger
>particularly distinguished himself, calling by name to several of the
>mountain-men who were amongst the attacking party, and inviting them to
>come near enough for him, the Big Nigger, to "throw them in their
>tracks." And this feat he affected more than once, to the cost of the
>assailants, for it was said that the Delaware killed nearly all who fell
>on the side of the Americans, his squaw loading his rifle and
>encouraging him in the fight.
>
>By some means or another he escaped after the capture of the pueblo, and
>made his way to the mountains on the Arkansa; but as it was reported
>that a price was put upon his head, he retired in company with the other
>Delawares to the mountains, where they all lay perdu for a time; and it
>was pretty well understood that any one feeling inclined to reap the
>reward by the capture of Big Nigger, would be under the necessity of
>"taking him," and with every probability of catching a Tartar at the
>same time, the three other Delawares having taken the delinquent under
>the protection of their rifles. Although companions of the American and
>Canadian hunters for many years, anything but an entente cordiale
>existed towards their white confreres on the part of the Delawares, who
>knew very well that anything in the shape of Indian blood is looked upon
>with distrust and contempt by the white hunters.
>
>
>   This is contridictory with the complimentary statements that Russell,
>Meek, and Ferris make about the Eastern Indians that they hunt with, but
>perhaps even if someone admired their ability it still was not enough
>make them feel welcome or equal.
>
>Wynn Ormond
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:30:18 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:20:29 -0600 "Lanney Ratcliff"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> hikingonthru wrote:
> >who do we thank?
>
> Dean Rudy doesn't get thanked enough.  Check out the resources on
> his site
> Mountain Men and the Fur Trade.
> Unbelievable.
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html
>
> Thanks, Dean.
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
i'll secont that one and he dont get involved in any of the petty crap as
some list owners believe they have to---he lets the list run its
self---thanks dean---and again---thanks dean---we all appreciate your
work -----AMM dont need moderation or censorship or injection of personal
predijuces----contact me offline pard---


nuff said---

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce        Home of "Old Grizz Products"  & "the Arkansas Under
Hammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684  Phone:[phone]
e-mail:  [e-mail]  web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:25:49 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator

On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:10:45 -0500 [e-mail] writes:
> <<...seems to think this is his list, >>
>
> I was wondering, who does "own" this list?  One person or a
> conglomerate of individuals?  I.E. - who do we thank?
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

it says it at the bottom of each post---as you can see above---but
believe dean says its a AMM thing for all the brothers---and all those
who want to learn and try to become one of the brothers---or to just
learn the history and ways of the mountain man---dean its your list as
far as i know---you are the cpt of this camp---

Nuff said---

"HAWK"
Michael Pierce        Home of "Old Grizz Products"  & "the Arkansas Under
Hammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida 34684  Phone:[phone]
e-mail:  [e-mail]  web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:16:26 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator

I agree to that!!  MANY, MANY Thanks, Dean, for all of your work on this
list.

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:12:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth

Klahowya ows,
I just finished watching the newest Longhunter Series,vol #5, with John
Curry. While I enjoyed Mark Baker's first 4 in the series a bit more, #5 is
interesting. John Curry mentioned that oil cloth and painted canvas were not
"period correct" for a "civilian" longhunter of the mid 1700's.... They
camped in either caves, or under primitive leantos, covered with leaves and
such, and most looked pretty cold and wet.

Anyone know how long oil cloth and/or painted canvas has been around? Hell, a
small piece of untreated canvas would have worked better, and I gotta believe
was PC....

Ymos,
Magpie

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 23:50:44 -0500
From: "CrookedHand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth

Know what?  primitive lean to's are gREAT if you have no wind and a nice
piece of canvas to throw over the top.. real great in a drizzle so long as
you don't back up to a hill that drains under your back side!\\

note  if it is cold or damp.. ANY shelter is welcome.. it is the ability to
build a fire in close proximity that is the challenge///
Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://www.alltel.net/~chand/
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth


> Klahowya ows,
> I just finished watching the newest Longhunter Series,vol #5, with John
> Curry. While I enjoyed Mark Baker's first 4 in the series a bit more, #5
is
> interesting. John Curry mentioned that oil cloth and painted canvas were
not
> "period correct" for a "civilian" longhunter of the mid 1700's.... They
> camped in either caves, or under primitive leantos, covered with leaves
and
> such, and most looked pretty cold and wet.
>
> Anyone know how long oil cloth and/or painted canvas has been around?
Hell, a
> small piece of untreated canvas would have worked better, and I gotta
believe
> was PC....
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 01:22:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth

In a message dated 12/9/01 8:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass!
 If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a
 gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age
 it to a period correct patina.  >>

I have a real problem with this too Dog!  Doesn't make sense to me to take a
nice new rifle & beat the heck out of it with chains & such & smear the brass
with old cleaning patches or nut hulls to artificially age 'em.  Maybe that's
OK if what the owner wants is a "wall hanger", but I USE my rifles & figure
they'll get enough of their scratches, dents & darkened brass honestly.  Like
Big Thunder said; "Take it beaver trappin' & fall in the mud with it!"  To my
way of thinking, there just ain't no substitute for hard use & age to get
"that look".  One of my rifles is 8 years old & looking just the way I think
it should.  Besides, as Dog said, we're reenacting the period when these guns
were NEW or just a few years old.  I seriously doubt Crockett, Bridger,
Boone, Meek or any of the people we try so hard to emulate would buy a gun
that looked 150 years old.  Another 2 cents for the pot!

NM

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:19:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Apology...

To all members of this list, and especially Dave (TOF) Kanger, I owe you a
personal apology for my posting yesterday. It was definitely out-of-line, and
I am truly sorry.   Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:17:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware

In a message dated 12/9/01 4:48:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  Bent's Fort by
 David Lavendar on Delaware Indians also. >>

THAT'S where I read it!  Thanks for reminding -- was going nuts trying to
remember where I'd read about the Delewares.

NM

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:42:41 -0800
From: "De Santis, Nick" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Dare I ask?

Well now!  I want to thank all of you fine ladies and genterman fur your
idears!  I might just give one or two of the good uns a wirl, But I will be
Gaud-damned if I ever let go which one I even tried!  A feller could get his
head bit offen' his here neck!

This question was more amusing than the time we let the snakes go in the
Ladies Room at the 1st Baptist Church!  Them hens did't stop cluckin for a
month!

All in fun ladies, all in fun!

Nick


- -----Original Message-----
From: De Santis, Nick [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:50 PM
To: '[e-mail]'
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass parts?


Hi,

I have been playing around trying to fix up a bad kit pistol I picked up
cheap at a show, and I am trying to go for the older gun look.  I have some
ideas on browning and wood finishing, but need some input on the furniture
that is brass (or silver for that matter) and how to give it that older
patina (sp?).  Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been
finished looks new.  How to get to the old look in less than 20 years?

Thanks for any tricks you may want to share.

Nick

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:34:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Clint Garrett <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001

Magpie,
   Baker wrote an article in the present issue of
'Muzzleloader Mag' where he gives some info regarding
historical reference as well as the downside of oil
cloth; at least maybe his formulae.  it could be
linseed oil just deteriates canvas quickly.  you may
want to read this article.

i was at Polebridge for the natl., Baker and I go way
back.  i'm the one who bought his honeymoon Tipi as
well as attended the wedding.  he even camped
primative in the White mtns. of arizona in 82 and
helped me pull traps on a coyote line during a
blizzard.

according to his story hudson bay used the canvas to
cover goods while transporting by boat or pack train.
afterwards they traded the oil cloth to trappers.
question is since it deteriatted so fast did it last
til the next summer rendezvous?

it would seem wiser to me to keep a plain cotton
canvas and use it many years rather than be caught
with a shelter that eventually came apart and/or got
on your clothes.  i just wonder if they 'tallowed' or
greased canvas for waterproffing after years, or
months of use.  i'm sure when the oil cloth became
deteriated they hated the mess all over ther goods,
bales, and clothing.

there has to be canvas treatment we haven't uncovered
as of yet; documentation is sometimes rare or
non-existent.


__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:18:46 -0800
From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." <[e-mail]>
> Now, if you will let me sit at yer fire I'll tell you 'bout the thicket I
> got hung up in today, the one where rabbit skeletons were tangled in the
> briars and those of coyotes .............

Hallo Ronny

I'm a bit behind in my reading of the list and other corrospondence.... but
a belated welcome.  Hope you get back up to God's country some day.

Regards

Lee Newbill
North Idaho


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:45:35
From: neddins <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company

An early reference to Delaware in the Rocky Mountains is in the letters of Pierre Meanrd, Resident Partner of the Missouri Fur Company  û Menard states two Delaware were killed with George Drouillard at the Three Forks in 1810, not Shawnee.

Take Care,
Ned
www.thefurtrapper.com



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:57:24 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001

Clint,

Though the jury may still be out on how wide spread the use of "oil cloth"
was and exactly how it was made, I would share with you that I have a couple
"oil cloths" made of muslin for lightness of weight, a frock of fairly heavy
linen that was similarly treated with linseed/bee's wax and burnt umber oil
paint and none have deteriorated that I can notice. They are running on 6 or
more years old now. So I submit that deterioration of treated cloth is not a
given.

If Baker is experiencing such deterioration of his oil cloths it may be his
formula because it is not quite the same as what I did. I probably would
have done it as Magpie and Baker did if I had known exactly how Baker had
done it.  I came into the experiment somewhere in the middle and didn't hear
the full story so just went with what I thought would be the right way. That
proved different from Baker's formula/method in that I used some bee's wax
and instead of pigment, used the artists oil paint for color. I also put the
stuff on well thinned with turpentine or Naphtha (whatever I had on hand).

But having said all that, I have found that treating good cotton shelter
material with anything other than a lime/alum soak as George Washington
Sears did in the late 1800's is not necessary and in fact that isn't even
really necessary if the canvas is pitched steep enough and is a tightly
woven material in the first place. Now a ground cloth is a different story
if your trying to keep your bedding from getting wet from the ground.

I have also discovered that most painters cloths end up making poor shelter
material, preferring something in the neighborhood of pocket drill/100%
cotton. Linen is a different story in that most that I have come across is
not tightly woven enough to make a good shelter at least to my eye, though I
admit to not having tried it yet because of the expense of linen. It looks
too open even after having been shrunk washed.

On the subject of Baker's ML article, I'm thinking that his shelter design
could be much improved if he had made some small changes in  how it was set
up, specifically how the shelter sections had been laid on the stick work.

A shingle effect is desirable. Thus the side pieces should have been laid on
first then covered with the roof pieces starting at the bottom going up. As
he has it diagramed, water can run under the part of the side pieces that
lay over the roof and in to the inhabited area. Just putting them on first
will eliminate that possibility.

And for my money and time, a flater version of a tipi shape works better for
a small group shelter. Two poles extending to right and left of a wide
opening door area with one going straight to the back of the intended
shelter. Each occupant adds loose poles to give the frame some filled in
body and then adds his shelter piece shingle fashion around the frame until
it is all enclosed to the degree wished. A shelter much the same shape as
our NW Plateau Indians made of reeds would be close and probably work even
better. It is similar to two tipis set a few feet apart with a ridge pole
going between. Extra poles are laid into the ridge and the whole covered
with reed mats or whathave you. Makes for one long cozy lodge/longhouse.

Our party of 7/8 made such a shelter last Jan. and ended up with our fire
inside.  Not much head room except in the middle but it was cozy and roomy
non the less. It was much more storm proof than Bakers open faced lean-to
and took less tying and probably fewer poles since we build below a big pin
(where all the needles had fallen for the past 30 years) and used a low
lying branch as a starting point for the apex of our shelter.

Hope that all helps some.

YMOS

Capt. Lahti'




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