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hist_text-digest       Sunday, December 9 2001       Volume 01 : Number 900



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........
-áááááá MtMan-List: Buffalo
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder
-áááááá MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 04:25:29 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

I don't like black brass on a gun either. That's why I said buff it back
"judiciously". You get (immediate) results that looks just like the old
originals if you follow the instructions that I laid down in the original
answer to this question. I did not say to leave it black.
Brass Black is the medium of choice for antiqueing a new gun. And no I don't
own any stock in Birchwood Casey. In fact, that's about the only product of
theirs that I use on my guns that I build. And then only if the customer
wants the NEW gun to look USED when he walks out of my shop with it.
Remember,ju-dic-ious-ly: as in the use of good judgement.
Now, have a party, that's the best I can explain it.
Good Luck,
Don in the Ohio Country

>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts
>Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:23:10 -0600
>
>TOF
>not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal
>preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way---I like old
>looking brass and have given many people the way to make new brass look
>old---but there is no real surefire way to get the true age look without
>you guessed it age---but you can dull it in many ways and brass black is
>not what he is looking for---hazelnuts is a area specific method---just
>as easy to rub the brass with a cleaning patch from the rifle after you
>have fired it---dulls the brass and makes it have a patenia after a time
>period---believe that is what the guy relly asked about---
>
>
>nuff said---end of subject---and i did sign out with my whole signature
>block as normal---
>
>"HAWK"
>Michael Pierce        Home of "Old Grizz Products"  & "the Arkansas Under
>Hammers"
>854 Glenfield Dr.
>Palm Harbor Florida 34684  Phone:[phone]
>e-mail:  [e-mail]  web site:
>http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
>On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:32:39 EST [e-mail] writes:
> > I'm glad everyone likes black brass.  It looks like crap, and no
> > original gun
> > I've ever seen has it.  All you are doing is putting a sulfide
> > coating on it.
> >  When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina
> > through
> > normal oxidation.  In other words, it just gets darker and might
> > have a tinge
> > of green in it.    It also shows wear marks from normal usage where
> > your hand
> > or shoulder rubs certain areas.  Any gun with black brass, other
> > than the
> > nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all
> > over the gun
> > when he cleans it.  Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide
> > coating.
> >
> > The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in
> > several
> > period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls.
> >
> > Dave Kanger
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>________________________________________________________________
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>Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

> Thank God, we have Kanger on this list to lead
>  us out of the darkness.  Where would we be with
>  out his fun loving, informative, good natured input?

Charlie,
If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting behind an empty screen
wondering why no one is posting.  Now we've got lots of opinions flowing
across the board.

>  For a fact, several of the methods mentioned
>  will duplicate very closely the appearance of the
>  aged oxide patina on original old brass furniture.

Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the brass.  The key words
in your statement above are "aged oxide patina."  All the previous mentioned
methods darken the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an Oxide
coating.  Naturally aged brass does not blacken, as there are NO black oxides
of brass.

>  The methods mentioned has been used by some
>  pretty fine gun builders for restoration work of
>  museum quality, and has been accepted by true
>  experts who know the difference between what
>  looks  good and  what looks like "crap".

"Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous term.  It means too many
things to too many different people.  I have several guns that I bought from
a museum as they were surplus to their collection.  They are pieces of crap.
One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it.  When one restores a gun to original,
does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like it's 150-300
years old?  Depends on the gun, don't it?

Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don't think so.
But if that old gun is in the rafters of a barn for 100 years, subjected to
manure fumes, moldy hay, changes in temperature and humidity, and various
other things, then the oxide formed on the brass will react with those other
chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass.  However, this
ain't an aged patina.  It's just deterioration like the buttplates and
trigger guards of dug relics do through.

>  As for the green Hazel nut hulls, if you have a
>  lifetime to rub the brass, it will work.  I have
>  never met a recognized gun builder that uses
>  them to create  a patina look.

I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in the late
1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all mention this method in their
writings.  What I said was, it dulls shiny brass.  I didn't say it makes an
instant patina.  Obviously it works, because it was done in the field to dull
down sights and hardware.  Also, recognized gun builders don't know
everything.  Each knows things that the others don't, and there are many
things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered.

>  Since green
>  Hazel nuts are so plentiful and easy to obtain
>  here in the West I can't imagine why they don't
>  see more use for oxide brass patina.

Only you live in the West.  There are people here from all over.  As to using
them, few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention this
fact.  Like I said, everyone don't know everything.

>  But then again, what does any of us mere mortals know?

Mere mortals know the total sum of their education.  We got A students and C
students, and even the A students are still studying.

>  Heck Dave this is your big chance at a new item
>  to sell, crush the hulls, bottle the nectar and sell
>  it as  instant brass oxide  patina.  Just think of all
>  The money  you will have to support your relaxed
>  disposition.

A bit of satire..........I like that in a man.

>  "Let the flames begin!"

Ain't no future in it.  Too many old guys get all bent out of shape and have
heart attacks sitting at the computer because of high blood pressure.  Each
can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end, half will
believe one guy and half the other.  You disappoint me.  Just a couple of
weeks ago, you said you wished I would provide some input on smoothbores.  Go
figger!!

OldFox

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:48:22 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

> not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal
>  preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way---I like old
>  looking brass and have given many people the way to make new brass look
>  old---but there is no real surefire way to get the true age look without
>  you guessed it age---

Hawk,
I didn't give my personal preferences.  I merely gave a traditional way of
doing it.  I agree with you that age is the only way to age something.  If a
guy wants to have a new gun with black brass on it............then it's his
gun.  Maybe he oughta take a chain to the stock and hardware as well, to put
some wear marks on it.  Or better yet, buy one of Jack Hubbard's Butt Ugly
guns.  To each his own.

>  nuff said---end of subject---and i did sign out with my whole signature
>  block as normal---

Yup, that's OK.  There is no ban on "commercial advertising" on this list.
Maybe I'll start advertising here too, like everyone else.

TOF

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:45:53 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........

In a message dated 12/7/01 11:52:40 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The
.62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from  >>

Don't dispair Mitch! I've shot moose, caribou, deer and bear with a 50cal
flinter, and it's a rare thing to "drop" them. All the old reports I've read
on shooting buffalo, indicates they're pretty darn tuff. On the big mean one,
reload fast......<G>

Ymos,
Magpie

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 03:10:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........

In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<   I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work
on
 the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing.
 >>

A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal.  Took 8 shots
before it fell.  He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how.  Autopsy
showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs.  Yep!  I'd say they were a might
tough to kill!

NM

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 03:20:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........

In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<   I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work
on
 the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing.
 >>

A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal.  Took 8 shots
before it fell.  He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how.  Autopsy
showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs.  Yep!  I'd say they were a might
tough to kill!

NM

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:08:41 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........

    It is amazing to me how different a buffalo can react when
shot. I seen a green pilgrim with a 50 cal TC knock one down
and not have his get up. And then I been in chases when on foot and in a
truck that took four hours in snow/rain/sleet to get him. I know of friends
which have had them charge when shot- aah, just like the old days!
    Any time that you have a chance to go on a buffalo hunt do it.
Nothing can teach you more about history than doing it. I am still amazed
at how much blood a single animal can hold. But the chase, the meat and
good friends can make for a experience that lasts a life time.
                                mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<   I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work
> on
>  the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing.
>  >>
>
> A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal.  Took 8 shots
> before it fell.  He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how.  Autopsy
> showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs.  Yep!  I'd say they were a might
> tough to kill!
>
> NM
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:39:25 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo

Joe wrote:
I have shot several off horseback with bow/arrow, 45-70
and colt walker pistol, still have to it one with a lance, I have
tried twice.


Waugh!!!
Wynn Ormond


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:01:50 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST [e-mail] writes:
> Charlie,
> If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting behind an
> empty screen
> wondering why no one is posting.

Yes, Dave, my whole life is centered on a blank screen
waiting for self appointed authorities  like you to throw me
a tid bit of their vast knowledge.

Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end
product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that has
submitted a method for a patina  look for brass furniture
has written that after the application of their favorite
agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the brass
part to the desired look.  The desired look and the finished
part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is not a
true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close
to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap")

 > Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the brass.  The
> key words
> in your statement above are "aged oxide patina."  All the previous
> mentioned
> methods darken the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an
> Oxide  coating.

I believe that this is the message we have all tried to convey. however
you choose to not mention or accept the buffing part of the procedure.

> "Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous term.  It means
> too many
> things to too many different people.  I have several guns that I
> bought from
> a museum as they were surplus to their collection.  They are pieces
> of crap.
> One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it.

I seldom waste time or spend my money on museum  surplus if it is crap.

> does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like
> it's 150-300
> years old?  Depends on the gun, don't it?

Absolutely in my humble opinion!

> Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don't
> think so.
> But if that old gun is in the rafters of a barn for 100 years,
> subjected to
> manure fumes, moldy hay, changes in temperature and humidity, and
> various
> other things, then the oxide formed on the brass will react with
> those other
>chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass.  However,
> this
> ain't an aged patina.

I agree, but that is not the question, the question was " what can be
done to give brass a dulled aged look in less than a hundred years."
As you said above, all of the mentioned methods will darken the brass,
but not give it a true oxide finish.  Buffing the sulfide finish will
give
a very close look to the oxide finish. Jewelers and engravers have
for centuries used Liver of Sulfur to darken jewelry back grounds
and lettering in engraving.  After the application the piece is buffed to
the desired contrast.

> I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in the
> late
> 1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all mention this method in
> their
> writings.  What I said was, it dulls shiny brass.  I didn't say it
> makes an
> instant patina.  Obviously it works, because it was done in the
> field to dull
> down sights and hardware.

Apparently you haven't tried the hull rubbing method,  I have,
it works to a degree, but is very slow and somewhat fugitive,
it don't last long.  A Sharpie pen is quicker and lasts longer,
but  again, is not pre 1840.

>Also, recognized gun builders don't know everything.
>Each knows things that the others don't, and there are
> many  things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered.

I can't totally agree with this,  Wallace G, and John B have
forgotten far more about the old ways than you or I will ever
know.  (May John rest in peace)  Both of these recognized
gun builders wrote of the merits of liver of sulfur for an aged
look for brass.  I do beleave however you are correct in you
statement that there is still a wealth of information for researchers
to uncover/discover.  (my interpretation of your statement)

> Only you live in the West.

I spent the majority of my life in Kentucky, and I understand
the fact that there are folks on this list from all over the world
thats why I didn't give a  method to darken brass that would
be a local or be very difficult for list members to obtain.

> few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention
> this fact.  Like I said, everyone don't know everything.

Today, most everyone has access to the extensive reference
(research) libraries you refer to.  There is very little information
that is not accessible by any member on this list if they don't mind
a little work.

But then again, what does any of us mere mortals know?

> Mere mortals know the total sum of their education.  We got A
> students and C  students, and even the A students are still studying.

I am sure that the membership of this list are not all (A) students,
but I will guarantee that regardless of an academic classification
every single individual on this list are "still studying," researching
and
working very hard to learn everything they can about this thing
we love.  They wouldn't hang out on this list if they were not "still
studying"!

"Let the flames begin!"

> Ain't no future in it.  Too many old guys get all bent out of shape
> and have
> heart attacks sitting at the computer because of high blood
> pressure.  Each
> can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end,
> half will
> believe one guy and half the other.

Here I agree again.

>You disappoint me.  Just a  couple of  weeks ago, you said you
wished I would provide some input on  smoothbores.
>Go  figger!!

You know, sometimes I am a disappointment to my self, but
what I wrote about you and Bob providing some input on
smoothbores was genuine.  However you chose not share
your experience with us, which is a shame.  I must say that
you are more of a disappointment to me and the list than I
am to myself  because of the way you sometimes communicate
with this list (or any of the others you are on).  Go back and
read your original post on this subject.  Dave, you are not God,
you don't know everything about anything, but your  posts  sound
like you think you are God and do know everything.  What you
say is the only acceptable way and everybody on the list is stump
dumb because they don't have your education, reference/research
facility or may simply disagree with you.  You have a lot to share
if you wanted to, but your method of presentation needs some
serious scrutiny.      None of us know it all, but some of us show
our true ignorance by pretending we do!  This format allows anyone
to be anything they want to be, the choice is yours!  My problem has
always been I only write about what I have hands on experience with.
Much of the research I have done in the past 60 years I have not
personally  field tested so I don't write about it, or pass it on as if
it
was proven fact.   Again, "different strokes for different folks"

Still would like to hear your input on smoothbores.  But I won't beg.<G>

Once again, a respectful,
Old Coyote
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<DIV>On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A> writes:<BR>>=20
Charlie,<BR>> If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting =
behind an=20
<BR>> empty screen <BR>> wondering why no one is=20
posting.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes, Dave, my whole life is centered on a blank screen</DIV>
<DIV>waiting for self appointed authorities  like you to throw me</DIV>
<DIV>a tid bit of their vast knowledge.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end</DIV>
<DIV>product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that has</DIV>
<DIV>submitted a method for a patina  look for brass furniture</DIV>
<DIV>has written that after the application of their favorite </DIV>
<DIV>agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the brass</DIV>
<DIV>part to the desired look.  The desired look and the finished</DIV>
<DIV>part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is not=
=20
a</DIV>
<DIV>true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close</DIV>
<DIV>to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap")</=
DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> > Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the=20
brass.  The <BR>> key words <BR>> in your statement above are "=
aged=20
oxide patina."  All the previous <BR>> mentioned <BR>> methods =
darken=20
the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an <BR>> Oxide =20
coating.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I believe that this is the message we have all tried to convey.=20
however</DIV>
<DIV>you choose to not mention or accept the buffing part of the=20
procedure.</DIV>
<DIV> <BR>> "Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous=20
term.  It means <BR>> too many <BR>> things to too many =
different=20
people.  I have several guns that I <BR>> bought from <BR>> a =
museum=20
as they were surplus to their collection.  They are pieces <BR>> of=
=20
crap.  <BR>> One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I seldom waste time or spend my money on museum  surplus if =
it is=20
crap.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like=
=20
<BR>> it's 150-300 <BR>> years old?  Depends on the gun, don't=20
it?<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Absolutely in my humble opinion!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>> Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don=
't=20
<BR>> think so.  <BR>> But if that old gun is in the rafters of =
a=20
barn for 100 years, <BR>> subjected to <BR>> manure fumes, moldy hay,=
=20
changes in temperature and humidity, and <BR>> various <BR>> other =
things,=20
then the oxide formed on the brass will react with <BR>> those other=20
<BR>>chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass. =
=20
However, <BR>> this <BR>> ain't an aged patina.  <BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree, but that is not the question, the question was " what =
can=20
be</DIV>
<DIV>done to give brass a dulled aged <U>look </U>in less than a hundred=20
years." <BR>As you said above, all of the mentioned methods will =
darken the=20
brass,</DIV>
<DIV>but not give it a true oxide finish.  Buffing the sulfide =
finish=20
will give</DIV>
<DIV>a very close look to the oxide finish. Jewelers and engravers have</=
DIV>
<DIV>for centuries used Liver of Sulfur to darken jewelry back grounds</DIV>
<DIV>and lettering in engraving.  After the application the piece=
=20
is buffed to</DIV>
<DIV>the desired contrast. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in =
the=20
<BR>> late <BR>> 1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all =
mention=20
this method in <BR>> their <BR>> writings.  What I said was, it =
dulls=20
shiny brass.  I didn't say it <BR>> makes an <BR>> instant=20
patina.  Obviously it works, because it was done in the <BR>> field=
 to=20
dull <BR>> down sights and hardware.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Apparently you haven't tried the hull rubbing method,  I have,</=
DIV>
<DIV>it works to a degree, but is very slow and somewhat fugitive,</DIV>
<DIV>it don't last long.  A Sharpie pen is quicker and lasts longer,</=
DIV>
<DIV>but  again, is not pre 1840.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>Also, recognized gun builders don't know everything. </=
DIV>
<DIV>>Each knows things that the others don't, and there are <BR>&=
gt;=20
many  things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered.<BR></=
DIV>
<DIV>I can't totally agree with this,  Wallace G, and John B have</DIV>
<DIV>forgotten far more about the old ways than you or I will ever</DIV>
<DIV>know.  (May John rest in peace)  Both of these recognized</=
DIV>
<DIV>gun builders wrote of the merits of liver of sulfur for an aged</DIV>
<DIV>look for brass.  I do beleave however you are correct in you</DIV>
<DIV>statement that there is still a wealth of information for researchers<=
/DIV>
<DIV>to uncover/discover.  (my interpretation of your statement)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> Only you live in the West. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I spent the majority of my life in Kentucky, and I understand</DIV>
<DIV>the fact that there are folks on this list from all over the world</=
DIV>
<DIV>thats why I didn't give a  method to darken brass that would </=
DIV>
<DIV>be a local or be very difficult for list members to obtain.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention=20
<BR>> this fact.  Like I said, everyone don't know everything.<BR><=
/DIV>
<DIV>Today, most everyone has access to the extensive reference<BR>(=
research)=20
libraries you refer to.  There is very little information<BR>that is =
not=20
accessible by any member on this list if they don't mind</DIV>
<DIV>a little work.<BR><BR>But then again, what does any of us mere mortals=
=20
know?  <BR> <BR>> Mere mortals know the total sum of their=20
education.  We got A <BR>> students and C  students, and even =
the A=20
students are still studying.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>I am sure that the membership of this list are not all (A) students,</=
DIV>
<DIV>but I will guarantee that regardless of an academic classification</=
DIV>
<DIV>every single individual on this list are "still studying," =
researching=20
and</DIV>
<DIV>working very hard to learn everything they can about this thing </DIV>
<DIV>we love.  They wouldn't hang out on this list if they were not=20
"still</DIV>
<DIV>studying"!</DIV>
<DIV><BR>"Let the flames begin!"<BR><BR>> Ain't no future in it.  =
Too=20
many old guys get all bent out of shape <BR>> and have <BR>> heart =
attacks=20
sitting at the computer because of high blood <BR>> pressure.  Each=
=20
<BR>> can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end=
,=20
<BR>> half will <BR>> believe one guy and half the other.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here I agree again.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>You disappoint me.  Just a  couple of  weeks ago, =
you=20
said you </DIV>
<DIV>wished I would provide some input on  smoothbores.  </DIV>
<DIV>>Go  figger!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You know, sometimes I am a disappointment to my self, but</DIV>
<DIV>what I wrote about you and Bob providing some input on</DIV>
<DIV>smoothbores was genuine.  However you chose not share</DIV>
<DIV>your experience with us, which is a shame.  I must say that</DIV>
<DIV>you are more of a disappointment to me and the list than I </DIV>
<DIV>am to myself  because of the way you sometimes communicate</DIV>
<DIV>with this list (or any of the others you are on).  Go back and </=
DIV>
<DIV>read your original post on this subject.  Dave, you are not God,<=
/DIV>
<DIV>you don't know everything about anything, but your  posts =20
sound</DIV>
<DIV>like you think you are God and do know everything.  What you=
=20
</DIV>
<DIV>say is the only acceptable way and everybody on the list is stump</DIV>
<DIV>dumb because they don't have your education, reference/research </DIV>
<DIV>facility or may simply disagree with you.  You have a =
lot to=20
share </DIV>
<DIV>if you wanted to, but your method of presentation needs some </DIV>
<DIV>serious scrutiny.      None of us know =
it=20
all, but some of us show</DIV>
<DIV>our true ignorance by pretending we do!  This format allows=20
anyone</DIV>
<DIV>to be anything they want to be, the choice is yours!  My problem =
has=20
</DIV>
<DIV>always been I only write about what I have hands on experience with.</=
DIV>
<DIV>Much of the research I have done in the past 60 years I have=
=20
not </DIV>
<DIV>personally  field tested so I don't write about it, or pass =
it on=20
as if it</DIV>
<DIV>was proven fact.   Again, "different strokes for =
different=20
folks"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Still would like to hear your input on smoothbores.  But I won't=
=20
beg.<G></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Once again, a respectful,</DIV>
<DIV>Old Coyote</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:28:37 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

Damned if it ain't refreshing to have a pissin match going, that I didn't
start !  <GGG>

My $0.02 on Brass Parts.  Charlie, wipe them down with the first dirty patch
you get after shootin the gun for the first time.  This will dull the bright
finish considerably.  Then, just use the gun and wipe it down religously
with oily or greasy patches each time you clean it.  You'll be surprised how
fast the parts will take on a nice patina.  As long as you don't ever shine
them up with polish or steel wool, they will just get better with age.
Pendleton
" Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "


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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:22:34 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts

No such match going on with me, the method you describe
is exactly what I wrote in my first response to this question.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:28:37 -0800 "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Damned if it ain't refreshing to have a pissin match going, that I
> didn't
> start !  <GGG>
>
> My $0.02 on Brass Parts.  Charlie, wipe them down with the first
> dirty patch
> you get after shootin the gun for the first time.  This will dull
> the bright
> finish considerably.  Then, just use the gun and wipe it down
> religously
> with oily or greasy patches each time you clean it.  You'll be
> surprised how
> fast the parts will take on a nice patina.  As long as you don't
> ever shine
> them up with polish or steel wool, they will just get better with
> age.
> Pendleton
> " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . "
>
>
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> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:50:15 -0600
From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder

Been across the canyon watching long enough to reckon some of y'all look
like Indians and I would be honored to sit at yer fire.

Twas born 42 winters back and was raised in the Mississippi Territory.  Grew
up as a rather modern farm boy and didn't get to burn sulphur for the first
18 years of my life but hunted, trapped, and fished more than Mama 'loud.

Went to Ole Miss for the wimmens and got educated on the side.  Served both
in the Air Force and the Army and still hold a commission in the Army
Reserves.  And yes, I do have my bid in for the all expense paid goat hunt
across the pond.

Although I am back in land of the Choctaws (Grenada, MS)  now,  I spent four
years in the Clearwaters of North Idaho (Pierce and the Lolo Trail) in the
'90s. I moved there after my last active duty hitch just because I was born
160 years too late and refused to accept the fact that I couldn't trap
beaver in the mountains and be a mountainee man.  Well, I did and dammit I
am!  Hope to move back someday but my new and lovely Mississippi  bride has
a long ways to go before she will acclimate her mind to moving to a cooler
climate.  Much as I loved the mountains  Mississippi girls are still made in
only one place.  It is a powerful thing that can keep me away from those
mountains.

Shoot a .54 Garner TVM Southern Rifle most of the time (rock in  rain
today).  BTW I took it back to have the sights repaired a couple of weeks
ago.  I had boogered them up, but Jack and the boys repaired it at no
charge.  Not bad service on this nine year old gun!  He is now operating
under his own name and is builiding fine rifles as always, but they do cost
more these days.  No catalog and no website and apparently no plans for
either.  He doesn't need them. He is also making stocks for a few other
shops who are also highly reputable and surely proud to buy from Jack.  As
you would expect, he spoke highly of the new TVM and of Jackie Brown.
Northeast Mississippi has more than its fair share of the finest!

Forgive me please,  but I do ramble with the Saturday awerdenty ration.
This list caught my interest because of its affiliation with the AMM and of
my interest in the RMFT and mountain man era. It seems that most of the time
the list is a good mix of  hiverannos and green hands and everything in
between.  Subjects range from the so-called stupid questions that we all
have at one time or another to the excitement of a mountain man buffalo hunt
today. Yet, I must admit I get queersome confused when list members wander
to far from the fire.  Who cares if bear grease is or isn't the best patch
lube?   I have enough to last to my next kill even if it takes a few years
and will quit using it when convinced that it is not period correct.  And I
don't want to make my gear look like it has survived 180 years - I just want
it to look like what the mountain men used.  Black brass?  Patinas?  Forgive
me again, but I just don't see why that stick should float down the list so
long?  Yes, I know that it started in innocence but enough is enough.  Go
trap beaver and fall in the mud with it.  That's when you start gettin' that
character stuff.   Whatever I bought last rendezvous looks its appropriate
age if I use and abuse it enough.  My life has its modern side with bullets
stuffed in brass and beer in cans, but I don't come to this list for it.
Really now  I am not a so-called flamer and am a nice guy, but.............

Yessir, I am an old infantryman and prefer to cut the BS and shoot sharp.
Nawsir, I am not there yet.  Gotta long way to go before I am satisfied with
my knowledge and my gear.  This list is helping, and I thank you all.

Friends call me Big Thunder.  Twice now lightning has lit me up, and even
though I like the name I would  rather not have earned it.  Occasionally, I
have to retrain myself to shoot flinchlocks - it was hard enough to overcome
the flinching the first time, but the second took years.

Back to my poor state of affairs with having to live back here in
Mississippi with the love of my life - the eight deer (and one a day in
Alabama)  and year round beaver trapping do shine.  It surely shines.

Now, if you will let me sit at yer fire I'll tell you 'bout the thicket I
got hung up in today, the one where rabbit skeletons were tangled in the
briars and those of coyotes .............

Ronny Oswalt, Sr.
Big Thunder
Grenada, MS



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Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:19:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth

I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass!
If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a
gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age
it to a period correct patina.  If you want to dull
the brass so as to not reflect light, just get the oil
from your hands on it-ask any ex-military man who has
suffered through a dress inspection!  Well that's my 2
cents worth, see you on the trail, Dog, Hiv.#617

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
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Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:24:52 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth

Dog,
Rightly said! We got a camp comming up on the 11,12 & 13 of January at
either Fort Hall or Fort Buenaventure we ain't sure yet. But come too it and
bring Moki.
YMOS
Ole
- ----------
>From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
>To: hist list <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth
>Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2001, 9:19 AM
>

>I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass!
>If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a
>gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age
>it to a period correct patina.  If you want to dull
>the brass so as to not reflect light, just get the oil
>from your hands on it-ask any ex-military man who has
>suffered through a dress inspection!  Well that's my 2
>cents worth, see you on the trail, Dog, Hiv.#617
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
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