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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #889 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, November 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 889 In this issue: -áááááá RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard -áááááá MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Cavalry -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá MtMan-List: Bucking -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Bucking -áááááá MtMan-List: lye or lime -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: lye or lime -áááááá MtMan-List: lye water -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá MtMan-List: Bucking those skins with Lye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:43:11 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Lanney, I asked my better half to put on my breeches. She said "but, Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..." I said, "Let that be a lesson to you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around here". She said, "put on my undergarments". I said, " I can't get into those!". She said, "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you have that attitude". Lesson learned.<g> hardtack > From: Lanney Ratcliff <amm1585@hyperusa.com> > BREECHES, n. plu. brich'es. [Low L. braccoe.] > A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs. It is now a close > garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called > trowsers, laxoe braccoe. > To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the husband. > > > - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it fro - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 05:10:59 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard In a message dated 11/16/01 3:39:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I will guarantee that not carding after each application will cause a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and time plays a roll in how coarse and grainy. With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a nice finish IF I card the last 2 applications. If I don't card the last 2 applications, then things get grainy. A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to wear as well as a fine grained finish. < Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush for most things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! As you say, need to degrease after using it. I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok. < Just for kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part such as a lock plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale builds up to the normal carding point, then toss it into a container of hot near to boiling water for a few minutes, take the part out (the heat will dry it very quickly) and card. Walla, you will have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine. Will have to remember that. < Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect, Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has evaporated & while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax. Parts have to be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a method I read somewhere that the original builders also used. Linseed oil should accomplish the same thing. < My comments here are not to tell anyone how they should do things, but to give a bit more information so they can decide for themselves how they want to do things. Exactly! I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me the results I'm looking for. The nice thing about this list is we can compare notes & learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can pick our brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through. Think it was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started this thinking he had to polish the parts before browning. Polishing before hot bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job. < (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.) Hmmmm! Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I assumed it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do. Another excellent degreaser is diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse than Coleman fuel. But it has the advantage of being available in aerosol cans. Rubbing alcohol works too. I prefer aerosols so I can just flood the part & let the excess drip off. With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag gets contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags frequently is a MUST! OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing! They have something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with Coleman fuel. NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and linseed oil canvas preparation. i recently discussed with an A.M.M member about improvising a tipi from canvas peices. although warmth was my purpose the pitch adds color and waterproofing. i sincerily doubt the western mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless they brought it with them from back east. as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil because a fire burned a bro's beewaxed leanto; i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion could erupt in modern storage. i beleive smoking it during winter camps from evergreen pitch was most common. also mansinita in the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in northern california and east of the big muddy, oak galls can be boiled and give a grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing as a morten. WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all the pitch and stains. question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 15:19:29 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and linseed oil canvas preparation. improvising a tipi from canvas peices i smoked my canvasses during elk season; they look great and according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerily doubt the western mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless they brought it with them from back east. as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter; i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion could erupt in modern storage. i beleive smoking it during winter camps from evergreen pitch was most common. also mansinita in the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing. WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all the pitch and stains. question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:58:11 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:40:37 -0700 Charlie Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> writes: > Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush for most > things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come > from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that > forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent > contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. Pard --- I dont use steel wool for carding as you say it contains oil ---have for several years used brass woll i also use brass woll to remove frost rust on old guns ---but then i add oil and rub the surface---it will not scratch blueing even on the finest rifles but is excelent to remove the surface scale---works much better then steel woll or a wire brush or such---thats my suggestion---home depot has it in about 4 grades ans i get the finest i can get to use for cleaning and carding---it works super for the carding > Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid > effect, I heat the barrel or let it sit in the sun until it is > almost to hot to handle, then smear on a coat of boiled linseed. Let > it sit for an hour or so then wipe off the excess oil. According > to Bivens this is what a lot of the old builders did, and has > worked for me for 40 years or so. I usto do the same as bevins for many years but found that sometimes if you dont get the surface sealed good the parts will continue to rust especially in the trigger area and the lock---and under the tangs---then if you let a gun sit up for 6 mo or more you get funny things happening to the lock and the triggers---so now i just make it simpler and kill the acid---also the sealer of linseed seems to give a real slick surface and some people dont want that I want a even matt on the finish---and after you handel it a while it slicks out and looks more original than the linseed oil that gives a gloss on ocasions---just my humbel opinion of course ---what ever works for you and what you are looking for it the final line in the process--- . (By the way, Coleman fuel > used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.) > Old Coyote you are truly correct i use the same stuff but if i am in an open area i also use acetone or just plain soap and water and scrub the parts and then dont let them toutch my hands---use rubber glooves ---with the parker solution you dont have to worry about that---thats one of the primary reasons i went to it---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you know what the color and all is like on the browning---its a black brown not a rust brown---looks like most of the originals you see in museums--- got to run---back to the hunting woods--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 16:50:14 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Garrett" <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil > > you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and > linseed oil canvas preparation. Clint, I don't want to sound like some kind of expert but I must address some points you make as they run counter to my experience and understanding. I've viewed Mark Baker's video where he goes into detail on waterproofing canvas. Firstly it is linen canvas that he uses as I understand and he does not use walnut dye. If he did so, it was by chance as far as the waterproofing process is concerned. He may have used a piece of cloth that had been previously dyed and if he implied that the dye helps waterproof the material I'll disagree with that assumption. What I saw him do was paint his material while it hung from the side of an old log building. His "paint" is a mixture of linseed oil and a choice of pigments. I believe he used iron oxide but may have suggested that other pigment bases would work. I got the impression that what he was trying to accomplish was to impregnate the pigment into the canvas pores using the linseed oil as a carrier. Incidentally, I did a similar experiment a few years ago when he first mentioned trying this (in an article in Muzzle Loader) but I used linseed, burnt umber oil paint and bee's wax all melted together over modest heat. The mixture was then "painted on to cotton muslin. The bee's wax was incorporated to keep the fabric from becoming too stiff and thus fragile in cold weather particularly. It worked to some degree. > > improvising a tipi from canvas pieces i smoked my > canvasses during elk season; they look great and > according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the > tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerely doubt the > western Mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless > they brought it with them from back east. I doubt the western Mt. Man used walnut hull dyes either. I don't think Baker thinks they did either as I pointed out above. Smoking canvas does tend to close the pores and I think it also increases the surface tension so water is less likely to penetrate. But I have canvas shelters that are not treated with anything and they are generally good shedders of water as long as they aren't pitched too shallowly. The canvas gets wet, swells up and stops further leakage if any. I have also tried George Washington Sears' method of treating canvas with lime, alum and rain water. That also helps but though authentic to the late 1800's is probably not something that mountain men did or had done (which is the more likely way they acquired anything like this). > > as far as baker's justification of using linseed oil > because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter; > i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion > could erupt in modern storage. There are a number of things that Baker believes that I find not to be true in reality and ways of doing things that amaze me but each to his own. As a retired Fire Capt. I can assure you that linseed treated canvas is just as flammable/combustible at it's driest as canvas treated with bee's wax. And after linseed treated canvas has cured to a 'dry to the touch' state it will not spontaneously combust in storage in your garage. Only as still oily/tacky cotton/linen waste, shut up in a pile will it combust on it's own. Basically the same that happens with a wet hay stack. Dried out the hay is fine, but bailed wet and you have the good potential for spontaneous ignition. Same for any of the natural oils in cloth. > > i beleive smoking it during winter camps from > evergreen pitch was most common. I would suggest that this is true but just a lucky byproduct of setting up a camp and burning wood quite naturally. I doubt it was done on purpose. also mansinita in > the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in > northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a > grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). Again true but Baker wasn't dying his canvas, I believe he was painting it though it may have already been dyed. > > a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no > note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and > venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty > water is essentual for dyeing. I've noticed that too but am not much into natural dyes so I'm quite ignorant of the mordents needed other than that they are needed. > > WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water > seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. Quite true. I've used it in the distant past but have recently figured out that it really isn't necessary. Plain tightly woven cotton cloth will work fine without adding much of anything. Linen is a somewhat different story as it is rarely woven tight enough. A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? <G> > > recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all > the pitch and stains. > > question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE > USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS. No and I doubt anyone will. > I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. From what I understand they were more often painted rather than coated or treated with bee's wax. > I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS > APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. I did paint my linen haversack and a small knapsack with bee's wax. I got it quite hot and used a natural fiber brush so the heat would not curl the bristles. The material soaked up the bee's wax to the degree it could be soaked up and no more (it went on much as a light oil would until it cooled of course). I didn't find that the end product was messy or left layers of wax to crumble and break/flake off. I may have added some thinner to the mix just to cut the amount of wax being carried into the material but don't recall. I hope this has been of help and some clarification. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:48:02 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment In a message dated 11/17/2001 3:15:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS? >> Call me crazy, but from what I've seen over the years, it's easy enough to burn a lodge down as it is. Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no? Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:27:31 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to > the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no? > Barney Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old OD green military wall tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been treated with a wax/oil waterproofing. <G> As long as you didn't put a match to the edge of it, it never burned up. Even an arrant spark would only burn a smoldering hole, no flame. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:51:19 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment In a message dated 11/17/2001 5:22:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old OD green military wall tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been treated with a wax/oil waterproofing. <G> >> Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like Linseed Oil. Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:51:47 -0700 From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes At 09:43 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Lanney, I asked my better half to put on my breeches. She said "but, >Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..." I said, "Let that be a lesson to >you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around >here". She said, "put on my undergarments". I said, " I can't get into >those!". She said, "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you >have that attitude". Lesson learned.<g> hardtack I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack! Otherwise it's gonna be a long cold winter............. Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:22:58 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Cavalry <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rjbublitz@earthlink.net href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">Randal Bublitz</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=rjbublitz@earthlink.net href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">ammlist</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 11/17/01 6:46:57 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> AMM-List: Cavalry</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <P> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Hi Guys, I was looking at the newspaper today. It had a picture of our Special Forces guys on horseback. What a kick in the pants. Here are our highest trained warriors on horseback. I can't wait until they hit the river country...I want to see a pic of our boys in canoes. hardtack</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P></FONT> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>-------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays!</BODY></HTML> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 23:27:18 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil In a message dated 11/17/01 4:45:23 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? <G> >> Thanks Capt......here's what worked for me. The oil cloth I made was out of a queen size "Egyptian Cotton" sheet...about 220 threads per inch. It squared up at 7.5'X7.5', and both sides were painted with a mix of boiled linseed oil and yellow iron oxide....about a half gallon and 1 lb of oxide was used. It took a couple days to dry to the touch in the sun, and a week or two in the shade to loose most of the oil smell. I hemmed the edges, and reinforced the corners with the scraps to make the tarp a bit more tear resistant. I'm pleased with the end result.....it's light, waterproof, fairly strong, and didn't cost much to make. As far as flame proof....I took several scrap samples and held a match to the edge, expecting an explosion. The edge would burn, but if I turned it edge up, like a candle wick, the flame would go out. My thinking is the iron oxide acts somewhat as a flame retardant...or at least slows the burn rate way down. I've seen untreated canvas burn faster, and with a bit of common sense, I'd use it for any camp. I just picked up a pound of red iron oxide, a nice piece of 9X9, coarse "home spun" looking cotton canvas, that I'll hand sew into my next tarp when the rain stops....mebbe six months from now. Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:12:36 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment > Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like > Linseed Oil. Barn Barn, Linseed is not going to combust any more so after it dries than a wax coating but if your worried even after all this assurance then at least you'll be extra cautious. <G> And if you dry it properly (it takes a long time in hot sun during a hot summer by the way) it doesn't smell all that bad any more. But it does add weight to the fabric and if the fabric is a tight weave in the first place, and you do not need water tight integrety to protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and would not carry the extra weight. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:23:37 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes No Comment <s> hardtack > I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack! Otherwise it's > gonna be a long cold winter............. > > Allen maillist.html - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Ch - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:12:14 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:07:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << you do not need water tight integrety to protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and would not carry the extra weight. >> You got a point there Capt. <G> I have a feeling the stuff I've seen made with Linseed Oil may not have been dried properly, 'cuz it was tacky and reeked, and that was weeks after it had been made. I think my concern about burning comes from once wrapping a rag soaked with boiled Linseed Oil around a hawk handle to tighten it up. When I came back in the morning, the handle and cloth were way hot and toasted to a nice medium brown! If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could present a problem in storage. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:04:54 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand > and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could > present a problem in storage. Barney Barney, I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does not cause spontanious ignition even in that tent all folded up in the corner of your garage. Wet linseed rags or cloth waded up, folded over or whatever is a spontanious ignition/combustion problem and what we guard against. Your dripping linseed oiled wrap around the hawk handle was almost guarenteed to heat up. If it had been a well dried linseed oiled wrap, nothing would have happended. And if you want to make an oil cloth plan on doing it on the driest hotest part of the summer or it may never dry out! And it will stink until it does! <G> YMOA Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:17:32 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking Got a questions after reading stuff on braintan.com. They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective mix. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:53:22 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bucking Wynn, You can't use too much. Only so much lime will mix with the water, and this saturation point is the correct mixture. "with hydrated lime: mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of water. It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a saturation in water at the perfect concentration. There should be enough lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to bring it back to full strength. Use more than you need. Pretty darn easy" Matt Richards Deerskins into buckskins pg 48 I bought 50 lbs of hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store hardtack - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:14:30 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: MtMan-List: lye or lime Whoa, Hardack, Wynn asked how much LYE to mix with water not how much LIME. Which is it, Wynn, LYE or LIME? You can dang sure put too much LYE in water. You put a lot of lye in water and you will very quickly create a scalding hot, caustic solution that could cause serious injury. A lot of lime in water will result in the essentially harmless solution you talked about. If it is lye be careful how you add it to water. Use an enamel ware or stainless steel pan and slowly dribble the lye into cool water while stirring gently with a wooden spoon. Do this outdoors to avoid the fumes. Ask any soap maker. Lanney Wynn wrote: They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective mix. Hardtack wrote: Wynn, You can't use too much. Only so much lime will mix with the water, and this saturation point is the correct mixture. "with hydrated lime: mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of water. It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a saturation in water at the perfect concentration. There should be enough lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to bring it back to full strength. Use more than you need. Pretty darn easy" Matt Richards Deerskins into buckskins pg 48 I bought 50 lbs of hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store hardtack Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:22:52 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: lye or lime OOOoooopppsss....I am used to using lime, as called for in brain tanning books I have, so just read lime, rather than lye. Sorry for my oversite. I've used lime, and recommend it highly to help the hair slip. It will save A LOT of work. hardtack - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:48:55 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: MtMan-List: lye water Hardtack I don't know how much lye to mix with a given amount of water to dehair a critter, but I know it works because I have seen it done. I went coon hunting in the bottoms of east Texas many times in the 1970's and the man I went with would keep any possums we shot while looking for the high dollar coon pelts....in those days a large, top quality cased coon pelt would fetch upwards of $40. To prepare the possum for the pot he would dump a can of Red Devil lye in a couple gallons of water in a plastic bucket and swirl the possum around in the liquid for a few minutes, using its tail for a handle. He would use his garden hose to wash off all the fur from the possum which would then be cleaned and cooked. He loved to eat the nasty sob's and tried his damnedest to get me to eat one. Naw, not the kid. In east Texas, country people will tell you that if you sneak up on a dead cow and give the carcass a kick, at least one possum will run out of its rear end, smacking its lips and grinning with all 50 teeth......supposedly the most teeth of any North American land animal. Not naw, but HELL naw. But I have eaten armadillo and those devils can carry leprosy. How dumb is that?? Lanney ps: For those who don't speak our local dialect, "naw" is Texican for "no" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:26:03 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment In a message dated 11/18/2001 11:59:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does not cause spontanious ignition... ...make an oil cloth on the driest hottest part of the summer or it may never dry out! Capt., Yer right. Thanks for two points, well taken! Barn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:20:15 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking those skins with Lye ">They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use >lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective >mix. Wynn, Last year I used the Red Devile lye to buck my braintan project. It worked like a charm, but I can tell you that one skin in a 5 gallon bucket will require a lot of stirring and "refolding". If you can, go get one of these 18 gallon rubbermaid totes with a lid at wal-mart (about 4 bucks last time I got one). The stirring space and the lid are worth it. NOW, to answer your question...put in as much as you'd like...just know that it will irritate you a LOT if the mix is too rich. I did a little digging at the braintan.com site and came up with the answer...it is pretty high up the list under a bucking question category. I think I used half a bottle to 8 gallons of H20. HOWEVER, if you can get hardwood ashes (esp. hickory) then use those...I found that it colors the hide and makes it easier to see where you have already scraped the grain and where you miss...Red Devil Lye does not. And any little bit of grain you miss will not soften well. If you do not have any hardwood ashes, make some!!! What better excuse to have your friends over for a whole-hog bbq? <VBG> Good luck with your skins!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 00:40:25 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing. >> The proper mordant for walnut is iron. You're "iron pot or rusty water" or even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull dye. I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is needed. Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up on anyting but walnut. However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get it to dry properly. NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:53:29 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Gentelmen, I have a book called "the Encyclopedia of practical knowledge" The book was published in 1880. The following formulas were listed in it. "To waterproof canvas goods" Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge "Scarlet Dye" Cream of tarter 25 oz Cohinical, pulverized 12 1/2 oz Muriate of tin or Scarlet spirit 8 lbs Boil mixture for 15 minutes then add cloth and boil for 1 1/2 hr while agitating. Dry in sun YMOS Ole #718 - ---------- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil >Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001, 10:40 PM > >In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, >doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: > ><< natural dyes require a morten, salt and > venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty > water is essentual for dyeing. >> > >The proper mordant for walnut is iron. You're "iron pot or rusty water" or >even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull >dye. I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is >needed. Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up >on anyting but walnut. However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or >yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get >it to dry properly. > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #889 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.