ftp.xmission.com

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ ftp.xmission.com / 2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar / ftp.xmission.com / pub / lists / hist_text / archive / v01.n890 < prev next >

Wrap

Internet Message Format | 2001-11-20 | 47KB

From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #890 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, November 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 890 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá MtMan-List: browning -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? -áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá MtMan-List: linseed oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: linseed oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye -áááááá MtMan-List: Walnut Dye -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:20:35 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil > >The proper mordant for walnut is iron. This is false information. Walnut dye is self-mordanting. >You're "iron pot or rusty water" or even some filings or shavings from machining >would be correct for walnut hull dye. In this case, the type of pot or added ingredients used changes the color of the dye. Using an iron kettle instead of a plastic bucket will result in a deeper color. The addition of added ingredients simply changes the chemcal properties of the dye. >I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel > is needed. Depends on what you are doing. Walnut hulls are a cold dye. It works without boiling. If you start adding iron, then it starts reacting with the tannic acid to change the dye mix. The more you add, the more you get away from having walnut dye and the closer you get to having an iron based dye. A handul of filings, a couple of iron nails, or simply that which is dissolved from the iron pot are sufficient. You can also add sumac leaves/bark to alter the color. It depends on what you want, and experimentation is required. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:17:34 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca> Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------=_NextPartTM-000-68fbda51-dae1-11d5-a0b9-0008c75b2c46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0" - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is only semi-related, but I thought I'd pass it on; For many years I camped with a big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used paraffin wax dissolved in white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the middle of bloody nowhere, well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the fabric and seals it up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you could have used it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended periods.) Was always worried about flammability until one evening a big ol ember from the fire landed on the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened. The ember burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued to glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in the weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads. I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was done. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2651.75"> <TITLE>canvas treatment</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This is only semi-related, but I = thought I'd pass it on;</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">For many years I camped with a = big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used paraffin wax dissolved in = white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the middle of bloody nowhere, = well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the fabric and seals it = up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you could have used = it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended = periods.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Was always worried about = flammability until one evening a big ol ember from the fire landed on = the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened. The ember = burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued to = glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in = the weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I know it ain't the way a = mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas but once done, it's = pretty hard to tell HOW it was done.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0-- - ------=_NextPartTM-000-68fbda51-dae1-11d5-a0b9-0008c75b2c46-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:28:12 -0800 From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: browning Hawk said, <---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you know what the color and all is like on the browning> Yeppers, he sure did. And a fine Jaeger it is. The browining is deep and smooth. I don't know much about the Parker solution but I bet that much time was spent on the surface preparation for it to look this good. BTW: I have long used aerosol cans of carburetor cleaner for cleaning guns and gun parts. Handy and effective. But like the other stuff, use only with plenty of ventilation and no flames. Frank - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:38:04 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us. In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <<Pg. 82. "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally . . . .>> Great start, Alan! Thanx1 Now -- with this example, who is next? Most sincerely Dick James Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:44:44 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? In a message dated 11/17/1 4:39:17 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <<Also consider that a bunch of us have been doing the primitive demonstrations at Bridger for the past 3 years, and will be next year as well........all the things you are looking for are discussed and demonstrated there. >> The idea of something printed was to get it into the hands of 40,000 people - not just the small percent that visit the AMM camp and stop to visit. A nice coup for AMM to have the article included at no cost to AMM. This offering was put out to everyone on line - many more than are in the AMM camp in Ft. B. Besides, as I recall, the original idea was yours. Are you saying now it was a bad idea to begin with? Dick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:49:05 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes In a message dated 11/17/1 5:45:59 AM, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << Notice the pronunciation.......rhymes with "itches" not "leeches". No entry is found for "britches>> Thank you, Lanny, for the notes. I have recorded them in their entirety with the other contributions. Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:41:47 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil In a message dated 11/19/01 7:22:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: << This is false information. Walnut dye is self-mordanting. >> Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out? NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:49:10 -0800 (PST) From: mitch post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye - --- . > >> > > Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come > it washes out? > > NM > Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc. If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough. Mitch in SW Arkansas ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:30:04 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil > Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out? It doesn't. I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye. The more you wash it, the duller it gets. If will never wash out completely. It just isn't the color you want or envision it to be. I have a walnut stained shooting bag that has never been washed. It's the same color as when I dyed it. I also have two shirts that I wear regularly for the past 8-10 years that have faded to a brownish tan color early on and have remained that same color ever since. If you want to retain that brownish/black Walnut Ranger appearance, don't wash your clothes. If you wash them, they will fade regardless of how they were dyed. Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them? Dave - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:46:43 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye In a message dated 11/19/1 8:51:46 PM, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc. If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough. Mitch in SW Arkansas>> I have a book on dying that references walnut dye back into the 1600s on this continent among euro-Americans. If it is not perfect -- I guess they just lived with it. It is known that the dye frequently used for CSA uniforms was "butternut brown" created by boiling walnut hulls and rusty iron. Dye formulas also refer to acid-rust browning where an acid (hydrochloric, nitric, sulphuric, etc.) is used to reduce the iron. Perhaps the walnuts and rust produce a more permanent dye. I plan to find out with 10 yards of wool. A recent experience: I used aqua fortis to take the rust-proof finish off of a lot of iron hardward and screws a short time ago. When I was finished with the job I neutralized the dilute acid with soda but (and I have done this before) I accidentally splashed some of the muck on a good shirt. I Immediately rinsed it in cold water and then doused it with numerous "stain-out" laundry boosters. No good. That brown is there permanently! I would say then that to utilize this now known fact . . . . use nitric in dilute (5/1 -- 10/1) solution to clean rust off whatever it was you were dreading, then take the nickle finish off screws, hinges, chap buckles, etc in the liquid. Before you start have a bucket of sodium barcarbinate disolved in water in a heavy solution standing by. When you take the metal out of the acid, neutralize it in the soda water. Also use it on whatever you unintentionally splash the acid-liquid. When you are all through GENTLY/SLOWLY pour the used acid liquid into the soda-water neutralizer. You will get a lot of foamy bubbles! Allow for this so you don't get overflow. That brown liquid you see is a stout dye! If you wish you can boil up a big tub of wallnut hulls and add the acid liquid so you get the color of the combined dyes and cook your fabric in this (less than boiling). It will work for leather, also, but at warm to cook temperatures. Caution: best to wear rubber exam gloves and clothes you plan to eventually dye brown anyway. Sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:28:03 -0500 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes May be of little value but here's an interesting bit of detail from the journal of Zenas Leonard describing what might be an early chafe guard <G>, or perhaps just insulation? "We had not even leather to make snow shoes, but as good fortune would have it, some of the men had the front part of their pantaloons lined with deer skin, and others had great coats of different kinds of skin..." This being January 29, 1832, headed for "santafee" (NM). At the time they were eating beaver skins (!!) for sustanence, and wishing themselves elsewhere. And this from Ferris, traversing the Bitteroot river (somewhere between 1830 and 1835), listing the few things he deemed important enough to mention: "With my gun, blanket, tomahawk and knife, together with a small strip of dried venison I set out on snow shoes.." Tom SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > > We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look > more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of > pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us. > > In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: > > <<Pg. 82. "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally . . . .>> > Great start, Alan! Thanx1 > > Now -- with this example, who is next? > > Most sincerely > Dick James > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:37:40 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list - --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thing the Fort Bridger paper should have is a list of recommended books=20 that are easy and inexpensive to buy. All the books I list are available on=20 the inter net for less than $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky=20 Mountains 1820 to 1840. I recommend newer published paper back books. They=20 have better indexes, foot notes and forwards with corrections on miss=20 information or information that has been discovered sense the books writing.= =20 It also allows the reader to make notes and reminders in the book without=20 destroying a valuable book. Also a reader should read the intire book=20 introduction, preface, foot notes and bibliography. Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade history Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trade hi= story Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell =A0=A0=A0e= quipment Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over view of= =20 trappers life Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trappers= =20 life Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of the rend= ezvous The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's party This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade=20 history =A0 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10 Vol.= =20 set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20 Trappers of the Far West=20 French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20 Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West Your suggestions are appreciated Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>One thing the Fort Bridge= r paper should have is a list of recommended books that are easy and inexpen= sive to buy. All the books I list are available on the inter net for less th= an $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky Mountains 1820 to 1840. I r= ecommend newer published paper back books. They have better indexes, foot no= tes and forwards with corrections on miss information or information that ha= s been discovered sense the books writing. It also allows the reader to make= notes and reminders in the book without destroying a valuable book. Also a=20= reader should read the intire book introduction, preface, foot notes and bib= liography. <BR> <BR>Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade hist= ory <BR>Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal <BR>Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trad= e history <BR>Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell=20= =A0=A0=A0equipment <BR>Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over vie= w of trappers life <BR>Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal <BR>Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal <BR>A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trap= pers life <BR>Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal <BR>Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of=20= the rendezvous <BR>The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's p= arty <BR>This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade= history =A0 <BR>1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear <BR> <BR>The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10=20= Vol. set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West <BR> <BR>Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20 <BR>Trappers of the Far West=20 <BR>French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20 <BR>Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West <BR> <BR>Your suggestions are appreciated <BR>Mark "Roadkill" Loader</FONT></HTML> - --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:00:45 -0800 (PST) From: Clint Garrett <doublelongspring@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment > I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have > waterproofed his canvas > but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was > done. one has to remember that there are simularities in wax , dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things were lost that just didn't survive the document process. who says some colonial never waxed a canvas object? not every procedure is a surviving document. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:20:59 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil Ole quoted: "To waterproof canvas goods" Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS. SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING. LANNEY PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" PPS: MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK. SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO. ....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary LITH'ARGE, n. [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver. A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation with lead. It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent shining plates. .. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:59:55 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: linseed oil Lanney, I wondered what that was!. But that's what it said I wouldn't eat it. I wonder what it would act like? YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> >To: "History List" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil >Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001, 7:20 PM > >Ole quoted: >"To waterproof canvas goods" >Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge > >MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS >BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS. SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING. >LANNEY >PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" >PPS: MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK. SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO. > >....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary >LITH'ARGE, n. [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver. >A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation >with lead. It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent >shining plates. > >.. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:46:45 -0800 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment > one has to remember that there are simularities in wax > , dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things > were lost that just didn't survive the document > process. who says some colonial never waxed a canvas > object? not every procedure is a surviving document. Clint, Who says they did use wax? For that matter who says they didn't do a lot of things we can think of? So where does it stop? Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:20:19 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the slammer....yet....<G> Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 05:50:37 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye In a message dated 11/19/01 12:32:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: << It doesn't. I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye. Well, I'd call that washing out or fading. < The more you wash it, the duller it gets. If will never wash out completely. It just isn't the color you want or envision it to be. I dyed 4 shirts (1 linen & 3 cotton) 3 years ago & they're now gold instead of brown or any shade there of. Wife also managed to snag my frock & lightened it to about a medium brown with just one washing! She's since been threatened with broken fingers if she washes frock again & SO FAR, that's worked! 8) I really liked the color & feel of the frock when it was freshly dyed -- DARK brown & had almost a waxy feel to it. One of the shirts had interesting darker spots -- almost black originally -- like maybe it had been on the bottom & came into contact with the solids in the bottom of the pot. Even the dark spots on that shirt are gone now. Someone said walnut is a "cold dye"?? Maybe what I did wrong was dye the shirts hot? Then too, someone else said they dyed hot, so maybe I did it right? Left the shirts in about 1 hr, & yes they had been washed prior to being dyed. Since I'd used a big (7 gal) aluminum cook pot, I thought maybe the lack of iron was the reason they faded so quickly & completely. I know when I watched a dying demonstration at Old Ft. Niagara, they used cast iron pots. < I also have two shirts that I wear regularly for the past 8-10 years that have faded to a brownish tan color early on and have remained that same color ever since. I wouldn't have minded if my shirts stayed that color, but as I said, they're now a light golden color. < Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them? They ARE still blue, just not as dark. Someone's solution to my problem was "redye" --- easier said than done. Dang few walnut trees here in the Nevada desert! The batch of dye I used the first time was from nuts I'd picked up from Dad's farm in N. W. Missouri, but he's since sold out & his new home in town doesn't have any walnut trees. The turkey that bought the old homestead bulldozed the all the walnut trees, so that source is even gone. He didn't even cut the trees for lumber -- just pushed 'em off in a ditch & burned 'em. Those trees were good sized when Dad bought the farm in 1950. I almost cry overtime I think how many rifle stocks went up in smoke! Anyhow, my source of more dye is now non existent. NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:32:19 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye I have read the discussion of dyeing with walnut hull. This has been produced for years for dying traps, but west of the Rockies we have used criss oak leaves and small branches. Hope this helps. Joe aka Ridge Pole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:09:54 -0800 (PST) From: mitch post <hiparoo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye - --- SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the > slammer....yet....<G> > Magpie > Nope, not in the slammer-just in Arkansas..... Getting ready to send Bead Shooter some black walnuts-do you want me to send enough for you? Let me know. Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:52:40 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Tom All good stuff. Thank you. I have added it to the archive hopeing there will eventually be enough material to generate the final product/list/guidelines. Sincerly Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 14:00:50 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list Roadkill: Good addendum and good approach for how to use a book for research. I am pleased to see that every book you recommended is included in my library. Especially valuable is the Mari Sandoz book that many people seem not to be aware of. I have archived your message with the few others I have received, hoping there will in time be enough to finish the project. If you can think of others to add to the bibliography, please send them along. Sincerey Dick James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:08:40 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye In a message dated 11/20/01 6:36:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: << west of the Rockies we have used criss oak leaves and small branches. >> Now that you mention it, when I was on a bear hunt in the Adirondacks, it rained & the wet maple & oak leaves left some interesting colored spots on my diamond fly. Didn't last long, but the leaves DID cause a color to be transfered to the canvas. "Criss oak -- any relation to our desert "scrub oak"? NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >> That would cure my problem. Now if someone can tell me how to make it more permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be getting somewhere! NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:29:58 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye NM, It's the green hulls that actually does the dyeing.(If you already Know that, I don't mean to be insulting)the acid in the hulls do the work and if you pile them up in a cast iron kettle and let the hulls soak for a few days so they ceate a little rust in the kettle,then build a fire around the kettle and let it cook for about an hour. The rust from the kettle creates the mordant for the dye bath. You can dye smoked brain tan almost a blackish purplish brown.(like the old stuff you see from eastern bags and mocs in museums. Let your dye bath cool a little before you put your skins or material in it. You don't want to cook it, just want to dye it. I hope this will help you. Don in the Ohio Country >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST > >In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, >hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: > ><< Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with > me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW > Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >> > >That would cure my problem. Now if someone can tell me how to make it more >permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be >getting somewhere! > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:03:18 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Walnut Dye P.S. The old brown wrinkled up ugly hulls work for dye,too. But, it just takes more of them. Don _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:19:57 -0700 From: Charlie Webb <cwebbbpdr@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have one more if the list will allow. You mention bee's wax being applied to the hot (warm) barrel. As I interpret your meaning the wax creates sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking finish. I believe the wax application is very valuable in preventing future or additional rusting. As I said before, I use an application of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last carding. This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth of color (brown) that I like. My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously apply the hot wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats that lie in the stock) to create just the sort of sealer you speak of. I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax application was a common practice of old gun makers. I have used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years, and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown our way, and never had a rust problem. I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch lube) Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!! Respectfully, Old Coyote << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I will > guarantee that not carding after each application will cause > a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and time plays a > roll in how coarse and grainy. > > With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a > nice finish > IF I card the last 2 applications. If I don't card the last 2 > applications, > then things get grainy. A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to > wear as > well as a fine grained finish. > > < Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush > for most > things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come > from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that > > forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent > contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. > > Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! As you say, need to > degrease > after using it. I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok. > > < Just for kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part > such as a lock plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale > builds > up to the normal carding point, then toss it into a container of > hot near to boiling water for a few minutes, take the part out > (the heat will dry it very quickly) and card. Walla, you will > have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine. > > Will have to remember that. > > < Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect, > > Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has > evaporated & > while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax. Parts > have to > be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a > method I read > somewhere that the original builders also used. Linseed oil should > accomplish the same thing. > > < My comments here are not to tell anyone how they > should do things, but to give a bit more information so they > can decide for themselves how they want to do things. > > Exactly! I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me > the results > I'm looking for. The nice thing about this list is we can compare > notes & > learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can > pick our > brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through. > Think it > was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started > this > thinking he had to polish the parts before browning. Polishing > before hot > bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job. > > < (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an > excellent > degreaser.) > > Hmmmm! Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I > assumed > it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do. Another excellent > degreaser is > diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse > than > Coleman fuel. But it has the advantage of being available in > aerosol cans. > Rubbing alcohol works too. I prefer aerosols so I can just flood > the part & > let the excess drip off. With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag > gets > contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags > frequently > is a MUST! OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing! They > have > something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with > Coleman > fuel. > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3Dcontent-type content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DUS-ASCII> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0 rightMargin=3D3> <DIV></DIV> <DIV>Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have</DIV> <DIV>one more if the list will allow. You mention bee's wax being=20 applied</DIV> <DIV>to the hot (warm) barrel. As I interpret your meaning = the=20 wax creates</DIV> <DIV>sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking</= DIV> <DIV>finish. I believe the wax application is very=20 valuable in preventing </DIV> <DIV>future or additional rusting. As I said before, I use an=20 application</DIV> <DIV>of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last=20 carding.</DIV> <DIV>This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth = of=20 </DIV> <DIV>color (brown) that I like. My last action before mounting the=20 barrel</DIV> <DIV>is to generously apply the hot wax to the underside or what I = call=20 </DIV> <DIV>the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats <= /DIV> <DIV>that lie in the stock) to create just the sort of sealer you = speak=20 of.</DIV> <DIV>I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses</DIV> <DIV>of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax </DIV> <DIV>application was a common practice of old gun makers. I have</DIV> <DIV>used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years,</= DIV> <DIV>and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown =20 our</DIV> <DIV>way, and never had a rust problem. I have many times for=20 extra</DIV> <DIV>protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount</DIV> <DIV>of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch=20 lube)</DIV> <DIV>Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have=20 fun!!!</DIV> <DIV>Respectfully,</DIV> <DIV>Old Coyote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I = will=20 <BR>> guarantee that not carding after each application will=20 cause<BR>> a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and = time=20 plays a <BR>> roll in how coarse and grainy.<BR>> <BR>> With= our=20 low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a <BR>> nice = finish=20 <BR>> IF I card the last 2 applications. If I don't card the last = 2=20 <BR>> applications, <BR>> then things get grainy. A coarse = grain=20 finish doesn't stand up to <BR>> wear as <BR>> well as a fine grained= =20 finish. <BR>> <BR>> < Carding is another can of worms, I use= a=20 soft steel wire brush <BR>> for most<BR>> things, steel = wool=20 on the other hand is used by many, as it come<BR>> from the = hard=20 ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that <BR>>=20 <BR>> forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to=20 prevent<BR>> contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to= =20 brown.<BR>> <BR>> Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! = As=20 you say, need to <BR>> degrease <BR>> after using it. I use a=20 stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok.<BR>> <BR>> < Just for= =20 kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part<BR>> such as a= lock=20 plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale <BR>>=20 builds<BR>> up to the normal carding point, then toss it = into a=20 container of<BR>> hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,&= nbsp;=20 take the part out<BR>> (the heat will dry it very quickly) = and=20 card. Walla, you will<BR>> have the prettiest rust blue you = can=20 imagine.<BR>> <BR>> Will have to remember that.<BR>> <BR>>=20 < Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect,=20 <BR>> <BR>> Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the = water=20 has <BR>> evaporated & <BR>> while the parts are still hot, I rub= them=20 down with bees wax. Parts <BR>> have to <BR>> be hot enough to = melt=20 the wax, but it seems to work well & is a <BR>> method I read <BR>&= gt;=20 somewhere that the original builders also used. Linseed oil should=20 <BR>> accomplish the same thing.<BR>> <BR>> < My comments= here=20 are not to tell anyone how they <BR>> should do things, but to = give a=20 bit more information so they<BR>> can decide for themselves how = they=20 want to do things.<BR>> <BR>> Exactly! I'm not saying what I'm = doing=20 is right, but it gives me <BR>> the results <BR>> I'm looking for.&= nbsp;=20 The nice thing about this list is we can compare <BR>> notes & <BR>&= gt;=20 learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can <BR= >>=20 pick our <BR>> brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've = suffered=20 through. <BR>> Think it <BR>> was someone who'd never browned=20 anything's question that started <BR>> this <BR>> thinking he had to= =20 polish the parts before browning. Polishing <BR>> before hot <BR>&= gt;=20 bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job.<BR>> <BR>> < (= By=20 the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an <BR>> excellent= =20 <BR>> degreaser.)<BR>> <BR>> Hmmmm! Never tried it = because=20 knowing it's a petroleum product, I <BR>> assumed <BR>> it'd leave a = film=20 - -- gasoline & diesel do. Another excellent <BR>> degreaser is= =20 <BR>> diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- = worse=20 <BR>> than <BR>> Coleman fuel. But it has the advantage of = being=20 available in <BR>> aerosol cans. <BR>> Rubbing alcohol works=20 too. I prefer aerosols so I can just flood <BR>> the part &=20 <BR>> let the excess drip off. With liquid on a rag, sometimes the= rag=20 <BR>> gets <BR>> contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, = so=20 changing rags <BR>> frequently <BR>> is a MUST! OH, & the = red=20 "shop towels" suck for degreasing! They <BR>> have <BR>> = something=20 in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with <BR>> Coleman= =20 <BR>> fuel.<BR>> <BR>> NM<BR>> <BR>>=20 - ----------------------<BR>> hist_text list info: <BR>> <A=20 href=3D"http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html">http://www.= xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</A><BR>>=20 </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #890 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.