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hist_text-digest       Sunday, September 9 2001       Volume 01 : Number 857



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
-áááááá Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá MtMan-List: Translation of phrases from one language to another
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá MtMan-List: Census
-áááááá MtMan-List: Delaware Indians
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

I was there last time....hope to be there again.

linda

[e-mail] wrote:

> linda---
> darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin
> here---
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:37:13 -0600
From: "Kim & Jen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856

Hello, the camp:
    Thank you all for your well worded comments!!  I'm almost sorry that I
replied to the question on the buckskins in the first place as we seem to
have aimed in a totally different direction.  Since I am the cause of this,
I apologize profusely.
    I won't comment further on the buckskins question as it has been covered
more than adequately.
    On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of you,
but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity, I didn't think that it
was outside the realm of discussion), thank you Linda for the web site
address.  I haven't been there yet but will.  I would alsso like to offer
this one for those of you that are interested:
www.the7thfire.com/history.htm .  This one talks of "At the beginning of the
last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll
take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century)  that she found
early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed
to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway
culture.
    In regard to PROVING by physical evidence, that is as difficult for the
White culture as it is the American Indian culture, when the object of
contention is so easily and quickly deteriorated.  That becomes a difficult
prove.  Do the Whites say since they can't see one that was made before such
and such a date that they never existed and are "JUST A FAD" or do we give a
little leeway?  I'm sure that the religious discussions that have happened
since time immemmorial have pondered the same question.  It probably boils
down to how mush of a hard ass a person wants to be and what their personal
prejudices are.  I do have a bit of a problem with those that discount oral
traditions simpl;y because the folks that practiced them didn't have a
written language and had to transmit their heritage and history by word
rather than writing it down.  Most of us take for granted what we read in
the Bible even though most of the authors of the books contained there wrote
about things that had been handed down orally before they were written for
posterity.
    If you all are done discussing this subject, that's fine.  I didn't mean
to cause such an uproar.  I have enough EVIDENCE to satisfy what I needed it
for, anyway, now.
    Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion and for the luxury of
reading yours.
    Respectfully;
CallsTheWind


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:57:26 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

Dick,

The redheaded Mrs Tater made the first one I ever saw about 1981.  I might
still have the remnants.

They were called spider-webs back then and more simply made.

Never saw an old one.

John...

At 12:58 PM 9/8/01 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<  I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians
>
>didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >>
>
>I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990.  Any documentation??
>RJames

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 00:33:15 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

will be somewhere near hilljack and  ad millers place and the
range---will bring it with me---

hawk

On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400 Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
writes:
> I was there last time....hope to be there again.
>
> linda
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > linda---
> > darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn
> buffilo skin
> > here---
> >
> >     "HAWK"
> > Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "
> trademark (C)
> > 854 Glenfield Dr.
> > Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> > E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 04:37:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

In a message dated 9/8/01 10:08:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Am I being a hardheaded prick again???   D>>

again, or still?  :)  Sorry Dennis, couldn't resist!   You're right on the
money, though.  Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim & Jen" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856


>     On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of
you,
> but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to
offer
> this for those of you that are interested:
> www.the7thfire.com/history.htm .  This one talks of "At the beginning of
the
> last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll
> take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century)  that she
found
> early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed
> to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway
> culture.

Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and
continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website
you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website
also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time
period, not early 19th century.
In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does
describe a
charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite
mis-quotes  her comments of the purpose of this object.
She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective charms.
Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards.
These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in
diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn
usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two
spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, "caught
any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds
whatever comes in contact with it".
Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any
way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb
charm".
The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and
its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were used
on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature
representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream
object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a
benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were
carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on
dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as
saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not
learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to
them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own
strength."
The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why
research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The
website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular
in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream
catchers".
It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had
been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native
people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different
in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream
catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned with
historical accuracy to make a buck.

T. Clark




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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:48:12 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856

Thanks Kim and Jen,
  You can not depend on venders to do your research for you. I have
personally witnessed traders "authenticating" their trade goods with some of
the weirdest yarns you have ever heard. I am a native person from Oklahoma
and grew up at Pow-Wows and have seen the evolution of the "Indian culture"
through my 40+ years. Like I said in a previous post"What FAD is it going to
be next?"  I don't like Indians or whites misrepresenting our culture for a
buck. New agers aren't just white, and not all natives are as honorable as
the american myth would have you believe. Thank you again for a sensible and
informative post.
  Your friend in Ohio, Watch out for the Shamans for hire.
  Don Secondine

>From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kim & Jen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
>
>
> >     On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of
>you,
> > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to
>offer
> > this for those of you that are interested:
> > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm .  This one talks of "At the beginning of
>the
> > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll
> > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century)  that she
>found
> > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is
>supposed
> > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the
>Ojibway
> > culture.
>
>Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and
>continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website
>you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website
>also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time
>period, not early 19th century.
>In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does
>describe a
>charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite
>mis-quotes  her comments of the purpose of this object.
>She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective
>charms.
>Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards.
>These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in
>diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn
>usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two
>spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they,
>"caught
>any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds
>whatever comes in contact with it".
>Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any
>way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb
>charm".
>The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and
>its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were
>used
>on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature
>representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream
>object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a
>benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were
>carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on
>dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as
>saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not
>learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to
>them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own
>strength."
>The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why
>research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The
>website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular
>in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream
>catchers".
>It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had
>been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native
>people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different
>in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream
>catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned
>with
>historical accuracy to make a buck.
>
>T. Clark
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:56:41 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856

Sorry T. Clark,
   I thanked the wrong party for this post. But, THANKS to all concerned
because the truth eventually comes out if we use our logic instead of
emotion to think with.
   I'll eventually learn how to use this thing,I appreciate everyones
patience.
Sincerely,
Don Secondine


>From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kim & Jen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856
>
>
> >     On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of
>you,
> > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to
>offer
> > this for those of you that are interested:
> > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm .  This one talks of "At the beginning of
>the
> > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll
> > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century)  that she
>found
> > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is
>supposed
> > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the
>Ojibway
> > culture.
>
>Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and
>continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website
>you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website
>also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time
>period, not early 19th century.
>In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does
>describe a
>charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite
>mis-quotes  her comments of the purpose of this object.
>She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective
>charms.
>Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards.
>These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in
>diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn
>usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two
>spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they,
>"caught
>any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds
>whatever comes in contact with it".
>Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any
>way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb
>charm".
>The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and
>its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were
>used
>on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature
>representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream
>object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a
>benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were
>carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on
>dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as
>saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not
>learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to
>them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own
>strength."
>The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why
>research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The
>website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular
>in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream
>catchers".
>It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had
>been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native
>people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different
>in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream
>catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned
>with
>historical accuracy to make a buck.
>
>T. Clark
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:16:32 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

In a message dated 9/8/1 10:30:49 PM, [e-mail] writes:(about
Bridger)

<< There was one fellow, well known by now,
who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of
Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets!
What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve
"Mountain Men" who lined up
on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent
over and displayed a sizeable portion
of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies.>>

You seem to have gotten the same impression - and chuckles - from the Oshkosh
mointain man that I did.  The boys-on-the-bridge-bunch are another example of
people who don't understand why they are being laughed at.   One year on
Henry's Fork a young buck though he was putting on a show for the wife of a
doctor and the nurse with her.  They came back to the tipi laughing at what
might have been appropriate behavior on their part such as: just pointing and
laughing, or saying (sypathetically)Oh-h . . . That's too bad.

The open (to the public) rendezvous has many facets besides the wonder and
the entertainment you have mentioned.  Many people (40,000??!!) wander
through there and see some of the "good stuff" for the first time.  From this
group we harvest a corps of quality buckskinners  --  participants who would
never has gotten involved were it not for this initial contact.  Then there
are the ones you have mentioned whom we all hope the rest of the world
realizes them to be just what they appear -- something equivalent to not
realizing they are in the wrong movie.

" . . . good with the bad"

Richard James


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<I've never seen any documentation on dream catchers anywhere before 1840. I
feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread
proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research
then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn
about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from who
knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That
simply is not the way to do research.>>

Don: I have know a number of Indians -  Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . .  who all
swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers.  All of them have one
thing in common  --  they SELL dream catchers!.  You can talk to them about
other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue.  A
few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the
country  with a little story attached and the statement that this magical
creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with
artifical sinue) by an Indian.  It was true.  They were being cranked out in
Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta,
India.   How more Indian can you get??

Sincerely
Richard James

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 22:13:08 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

He' Richard,
Thanks for the chuckle!(LOL)
Your friend,
Don Secondine


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<I've never seen any documentation on dream catchers anywhere before 1840.
>I
>feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread
>proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research
>then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn
>about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from
>who
>knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That
>simply is not the way to do research.>>
>
>Don: I have know a number of Indians -  Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . .  who
>all
>swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers.  All of them have one
>thing in common  --  they SELL dream catchers!.  You can talk to them about
>other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue.  A
>few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the
>country  with a little story attached and the statement that this magical
>creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with
>artifical sinue) by an Indian.  It was true.  They were being cranked out
>in
>Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta,
>India.   How more Indian can you get??
>
>Sincerely
>Richard James
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:35:28 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Translation of phrases from one language to another

On another list, a member has just shared a link to a web site where you can
type or paste a phrase in a foreign language and get a translation to
English or whatever other language you desire. I have book marked the page
for future use.

Here is the URL:

http://translator.dictionary.com/fcgi/translate

www.dictionary.com  is the home site for this particular service.

Capt. Lahti'



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Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:36:48 -0600
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

No Dennis, you're not be hard headed at all...............ha ha

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:11:57 -0600
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Census

Not long ago Don from the flat lands of Ohio <G> wrote:

Whoa! Ol' Hoss,
  Who do you think the majority of mountain men were from 1803 - 1839?
EASTERNERS!!!!

The majority of the mountain men were from, mixed blood,  or Canadians,
according to Ferris 60%.  Others (Good to hear from you agian Walt) have
speculated even higher.  I have often wondered what effect it has on
clothing, etc if the average trapper was a half breed who may have ties
north instead of a Kentucky frontiersman.  Any thoughts?

Wynn Ormond



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Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians

In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware
Indians in the fur trade.  I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware
in the search.  I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote:

. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party
to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville.

Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to
Iroquois are really not being tribe specific.  The Iroquois were a large
presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it
would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden
when in fact there were more tribes represented.   I can not remember
now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but
if they are that would make the link even closer.

Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry.

Wynn Ormond



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:30:28 -0400
From: "Double Edge Forge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

Hey Todd....  :^ P!!!!!!


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:26:11 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin

In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< If it is not stretched wet,
 dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the
 sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he
started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when
dry and stretch out
 when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you
 try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally
 tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems.
  >>
Capt. Lahti,

I will take that as sage advice!!!!  I have lived not too long but long
enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even if
they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!!  Thanks
for the explanation!!

- -C.Kent

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Thanks for the chuckle!(LOL)
Your friend,
Don Secondine>>

Some smile
Some are offended
I just risk it.
Too old to matter.
Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor.

Most sincerely your friend
Richard James
(where do you live, anyway??)

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:46:09 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians

Thanks Wynn for the note,
  The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin language. The Delawares lived
around Westville(present day kansas City) and Lawrence,Ks. from the 1820's
to 1867-68. (One of their many stops during the migration west from their
homeland along the Delaware River Valley at European contact. I'll check out
Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in more detail concerning
Delawares.
Thanks again,
Don Secondine


>From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians
>Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600
>
>In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware
>Indians in the fur trade.  I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware
>in the search.  I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote:
>
>. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party
>to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville.
>
>Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to
>Iroquois are really not being tribe specific.  The Iroquois were a large
>presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it
>would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden
>when in fact there were more tribes represented.   I can not remember
>now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but
>if they are that would make the link even closer.
>
>Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry.
>
>Wynn Ormond
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:59:30 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854

Howdy Richard James,
  I'm from Okla. but, now live in the northwest corner of Ohio. The flat as
a griddle part of Ohio. It's so flat that when I look west I can see the
very top tips of the shiny mountains.
Your friend,
Don Secondine in the Ohio country


>From: [e-mail]
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<Thanks for the chuckle!(LOL)
>Your friend,
>Don Secondine>>
>
>Some smile
>Some are offended
>I just risk it.
>Too old to matter.
>Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor.
>
>Most sincerely your friend
>Richard James
>(where do you live, anyway??)
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:46:42 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin

C.Kent,

Your welcome. And thanks for taking it. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf
skin


> In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail]
> writes:
>
> << If it is not stretched wet,
>  dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the
>  sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he
> started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up
when
> dry and stretch out
>  when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you
>  try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather
generally
>  tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further
problems.
>   >>
> Capt. Lahti,
>
> I will take that as sage advice!!!!  I have lived not too long but long
> enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even
if
> they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!!
Thanks
> for the explanation!!
>
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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