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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #856
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Saturday, September 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 856
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
-áááááá Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
-áááááá MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá MtMan-List: Dream Catchers....oh yea>>??? 1990????
-áááááá Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:33:10 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes:
<<Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with sinew too
(the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise,
>>
Addendum to Pat Quilter's shirt making directions:
First - the shirt description seems to be that of a euopean-influences
pattern. Great! Let me caution you all to NOT make a shirt of a decorated
Indian pattern - medicine shirt, etc.. To any Indian who knows his stuff
(not TV educated), a white man in such apparel is highly offensive.
Second - a white-man shirt made of commercial deer skins is very period.
(see "breeches" in Rural Penna. Clothing publication). The colonists and
Europeans used leather of their own tanning to make clothes. However,
slick-in was the rule for easy on easy off dressing/undressing. They also
dyed their leather - sometimes after it had been worn a while to cover up
spots and spills.
Third - saddle stitching is a very-whiteh-man technique. Indians used
the running stitch with a welted seam . . . far more practical for buckskin
clothing.
Fourth - If you want fringe on your sleeve, do not put it on the bottom
(lower) edge of the seam. Believe me! You will end up with an arm pit full
of fringe . . . very uncomfortable. Instead -- lay out the sleeve for the
desired outline, but make the seam paralel to the top edge of the sleeve.
This means a fold rather than a seam along the bottom. If you want a
yoke-type body where there is fringe across the back, (or/and front), the
fringe on the body connects the two points where the sleeve fringe/seam
contacts the body. This is non-Indian and very correct.
Third - Why do you want a leather shirt, anyway?? As Osbourn Russell
pointed out - it is far more comfortable to be wet in a cloth shirt than a
leather one, but when leather must be used, they prefered antelope because it
is so much lighter. First time I tried on a leather shirt (1967) I thought
I had "arrived". I made and wore two more after that before I discovered the
wisdome of Russell. A buckskin jacket (see Miller's paintings of Stewart's
French hunter) or a smock are FAR more practical. (an opinion based on
considerable experience)
Most sincerely
Richard James
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:33:43 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes:
<<Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with sinew too
(the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise,
>>
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:05:16 EDT
From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party
laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present
received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9
that is where i got the number
Two Bear
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:16:56 EDT
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
In a message dated 9/7/01 9:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
frankf@cox-internet.com writes:
<< Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point
that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and
liver mixture. >>
Frank,
Maybe you could use the pant legs and shirt bottom to wipe the grease off
your hands. After a year or two they should develop that neat black color
!!! <VBG> I understand that would be somewhat period correct!!! :)
- -C.Kent
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:21:44 EDT
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin
In a message dated 9/7/01 11:55:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com
writes:
<< I would think your best bet would be to disassemble the garments, wet and
stretch them, let them dry on that hard smooth surface, sand the scarf skin
off best you can with that sander and sheet rock pad, >>
Capt. Lahti,
Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not sand
off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now. True, the stuff in and
near the seams would not come off but the rest would and Frank would not have
to contend with parts of his pants that do not really line up just right
anymore. If any of y'all have sewn anything you know a little variance can
throw the garment dimensions way off!!!! (If you do not believe me...I have
a set of dropfront britches that would make Jethro Bodine proud!!!)
- -C.Kent
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:40:08 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin
> Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not
sand
> off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now.
- -C.Kent,
There is usually a good reason for following directions as given. If I were
Frank or anyone else who wishes to try this method, I strongly suggest you
follow directions.
The whole reason for wetting the leather and stretching it flat on a firm
surface is to make it possible to actually sand off the scarf skin without
sanding holes through the leather but just as important, to make it possible
to actually sand it off in the first place. If it is not stretched wet,
dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the
sanding medium to work.
He will actually end up with more leather than he started with since the
epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when dry and stretch out
when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you
try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally
tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems.
Of course your free to try it. <G>
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:02:57 -0600
From: "Kim & Jen" <kimanjen@wyoming.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
Captain Lahti and Teton;
Somewhere along the line of my post I must have come across as just
barely above a total neophyte. Sorry I left that impression.
As for "those of us that have been around a few years" I think that I
qualify. For the last 35 years or so living in the Wind Rivers and trapping
nearly everything that moves, brain tanning some of my catch/kills,
researching most of the Fur Trade Era history of this area, collecting books
and manuscripts, etc, and writing articles and working on historical novels
of the time period, giving lectures and talks for the public and for
skinners alike, stripping and sewing with sinew, living with the Indians
themselves and learning their techniques, practicing the survival skills and
medicines of the old days, rendezvousing for 28 years and being married to a
Lakhota should get me there.
Sorry I took exception if none was aimed my way, but that's the way I
took it.
As far as your responses I pretty much agree with most of what was said
with the possible exception of the long fringe really getting in the way and
not being used by the Indians themselves when out in the bush, so to speak.
Having done many miles of running in 7 inch and longer fringe with little
dificulty leads me to this conclusion as well as having the Indian elders
(my Lakhota adoptive father who lived in the 1800s as one) tell me of their
experiences. I'm not talking of running through the trees, rocks sagebrush,
etc., with beaded, ermine trimmed and much adorned leggings. Just the basic
legging with fringe, a breachclout and moccasins and perhaps either your
rifle or bowcase and quiver. This would have been an impossition for a
plains Indian of the Horse Culture as much as being afoot was for the white
trapper.
As for the "running around in commercial skins" thing, maybe it was a
poor choice of words. I have a friend who is 87 years old, has trapped,
snow shoed and lived in the wildest conditions that any of us can imagine
for 80 years and is wearing buckskins of chrome tanned leather, however the
color is correct. This man has forgotten more about the old trapping and
Indian ways than most of us will ever be privileged to know. He just isn't
into going any farther than he needs to at this stage of his life to sit
around the camp fire at rendezvous and impart what knowledge others ask him
to impart.
My point was that there are those of us out here that might not need the
AMM credentials to make us genuine. I considered it years ago and like
joining MENSA, I declined. I do know the difference between brain tan and
commercial, and period correct and that stuff that passes at the usual
rendezvous.
I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians
didn't use dream catchers before 1840. The Bridger rendezvous and others
don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed,
feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been
personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that put
it's usage befor the 1870's.
The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for
several hundred years to thousands of years.
Any comments?
CallsTheWind
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:53:50 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
The Bridger rendezvous and others
> don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed,
> feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been
> personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that
put
> it's usage befor the 1870's.
> The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for
> several hundred years to thousands of years.
> Any comments?
> CallsTheWind
CallsTheWind,
Comments? Yes lots but where to begin? Probably best not to say anything.
Oh, what the hell....
We walk a fine line here between a pure discussion of History (which is the
chartered purpose of this list) and discussions of what is and isn't
historical, correct, period correct, proven, suspected, or believed in a
spiritual sense, along with what is OK at various events, that it behooves
us all to think through our responses before we make them public for no
other reason than to avoid confusion and worse, hard feelings. I'm not going
to dig back to what you offered that caused me to go into further detail and
explanation. Suffice it to say that we were not talking about what you and I
have done in our own personal lives but trying to answer another's need for
guidance in the world of "Modern Rendezvous" and "historical re-enactment".
I'll stand by my comments and observations of what was historically correct
and what is practical for someone portraying a white or Anglicized trapper
of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade Era. Most participants and practitioners do not
run around in breech clout and leggings + moc's. They hardly get involved in
"living" the life much more than a weekend or week at a time. They don't
portray "Plains Indians". They are torn between wanting to get involved and
doing it cheaply and doing it right.
Most get the wrong image from what their first encounters show them. Few
actually get good advice before they have jumped in with both feet but head
first into the mud. If I'm asked, I will give my best answers. And I will
temper that only by what I perceive the questioner's real intent is. Some
will wish to know how to do it absolutely authentically from the get-go,
some will have an honest need to cut a corner or two on the way. Different
needs. Different answers.
Now to your "Dream Catchers". What this and serious re-enacting is all about
is authentication. Authenticate them at the original Rendezvous and they are
accepted. Fail to do so and they are suspect and may not be accepted by any
number of organizations/organizers. Of course you can be the organizer and
permit them if you wish. You say the Ojibway and other tribes claim to have
had them for several hundred years? Show the evidence. Oral tradition is
great for story telling and religious belief but it doesn't cut it as far as
authentication of historical correctness is concerned. Oral history often
does not mesh with archeological evidence or the lack thereof. It should be
listened to with respect for the truth it may contain, but it is not
definitive proof. In this end of the game we do not look for proof that it
can't be shown not to have been present. We show proof that it was. Or as a
purist, it is not accepted.
Of course this is all prefaced with the supposition that one is concerned
with authenticity in their personal choices or the standards of a particular
group or organization of like minded individuals. Modern Rendezvous pay lip
service to authenticity. Other groups such as AMM work hard to foster and
attain authenticity, though we often find we have fallen short of the mark.
But we are entitled to set standards and entitled to believe certain things
to be so until proven otherwise because we are not public. And it is not
necessary to be AMM to be genuine. As an organization, AMM gets it right
more often than not. As individual members, AMM'ers are all pilgrims on a
journey with no end.
But I think you know what I am saying and where I am coming from. Thank you
for your resume of accomplishments, affiliations, knowledge, level of
intelligence and live experiences. You are a unique and special individual
as are we all. I have no quarrel with you. I only wish to give my best
advice and answer when I perceive I have been asked to comment. If I
disagree with someone else's answers or comments I will try to enter the
discussion with good manners and grace. If I did not do that, you have my
apology.
As always, I remain.............
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:51:08 -0400
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
I agree with Capt. Lahti remarks on AMM being a never ending search. I am not a
member, though at one time I fought to be one and then saw the errors of my way.
;-) Men need men things and the ladies can teach them men. Rather be a
contrary lady with lots of little opinions based on my research, travels and
Native people I have learned from and then help a few "men" become members.
There are several women on this list who could fulfill all the requirements.
Also, there is going to be a great conference or symposium by some very learned
people, Native and white, at Great Falls, Montana if you really like to argue a
point. They can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be
there.....drop by.
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm
And on with the remarks on Dream Catchers, in the many museums and private
collections of the North Plains and Central Plains, written research among some
very noted collectors, historians and even ledger drawings, I have not seen one
of these Dream Catchers. But I have, in my 40+ years have heard the changing
stories and names of the item and how they have developed into a huge tourist
item and that now every tribe has a "history" of a Dream catcher. Most of this
seems to have started during the 1960s as a tourist item for the Powwows and
exploded from there in to the very outlandish hoops of today. What tourist is
going to buy a plain little piece of round wood with fake sinew on it. They want
gaudy and a good story to go with that prized "Indian item". Now I have seen
willow hoops in a few New England and Plains collections that date back to the
mid. 1800s that were used in games or as practice targets for throwing sticks or
spears. But the so called "Dream Catcher" of today with all its feathers, beads
and furry things does not seem to have existed in the old times and not by that
name.
The Great Lakes tribes and area did make a "little" round hoop to sometimes hang
on a cradle board to amuse the child...and that went with the old stories of the
"Spider" and were mostly related to catching bad dreams before they got to the
baby or out to spread to the world...I forget which at this moment. But there
are so many stories of that hoop and now the true meaning of the item is getting
lost in the "New Age" lingo.
What is period correct when referring to the materials. Are you really
referring to "real" sinew and a few old time beads. As to the feathers, is that
eagle, hawk or owl or Prairie Chicken, Canadian Geese, Swan, or dove? Or are we
talking the synthetic plastic sinew, reproduction old time beads and pheasant,
turkey, or colored chicken feathers?
These are just a few observations, opinions or insights from the side bars.
Linda Holley
http:www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:34:15 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
Mr. Huber,
Slim had a number=347
Youre sausage and biscuit eatin buddy
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
>Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 7:26 AM
>
>Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM?
>An "honorary" member, so to speak?
>
>Larry Huber
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <SWzypher@aol.com>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:59 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
>
>
>> Ole
>>
>> Slim Pickins should be on this list as well. I know he paid for three
>years
>> membership. Once on sign-up and a renewal for two years.
>>
>> Dick James
>>
>> P.S. Who is this Ole at the top of the deceased list???
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:46:09 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
Terry,
I finnaly found his original entry in the ledger, his number was Gray Beard
# 8.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
>Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 5:05 PM
>
>Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party
>laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present
> received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9
> that is where i got the number
> Two Bear
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 07:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: scott mcmahon <mustanggray@excite.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
-Well I was waiting for this to come up and it may have been covered
already as I still have a few emails I haven't read but I'll add my thoughts
anyway....If you use this method you will have a nice pair of buckskin
levis, NOT a period pair of buckskin trousers! If you really want a pair of
period trousers get a pattern from Past Patterns(can be found through Alter
Years out of California?) for straight leg mid 19th century trousers. They
will fit properly and will also have the "look" of period trousers ie. the
waist will be in the proper place(middle fall button at the navel). They are
drop front which is not outdated or uncommon for the 30's as some would have
you believe. You will have to use alittle ingenuity since leather is thicker
than wools and satinettes when seams are concerned, generally around the
waist band but in the end you'll be happy with the outcome. Just my
thoughts!
Scott McMahon
_______________________________________________________
http://inbox.excite.com
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:58:12 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes:
<< I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians
didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >>
I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation??
RJames
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400
From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't
wanna",
"if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs
on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying to
correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research,
experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think.
My $.02.
Am I being a hardheaded prick again???
D
"Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from
babies"
- -Me
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:23:34 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
> I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any
documentation??
> RJames
Something to consider. Hoops have been documented in games. They were used
as targets. I doubt that they were a mountain man thing here in Montana
being used as dream catchers. But the idea and use of hoops is very old.
Cheers,
Walt
Park City, Montana
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:29:15 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes:
<< . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be
there....>>
Linda
Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very
perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality.
I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without
reading.
Most Sincerly
Richard James
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 15:27:23 -0400
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
I am????? Not according to my students and Vice Principle. Was that a
compliment?
And is my ear big enough? is this good news?? Who is buying the drinks? and I am
staying at the Ponderosa Inn where is symposium will be held. Sounds like there
will be one hell of a good party, discussion on anything and it will go into the
night.
Cannot wait for the "show and tell/sells" that will happen in many of the rooms.
And whose tribe of Dream Catchers are we going to discuss into the night,
Seminole???? Want to get my Dream Catcher earrings on along with my Dream Catcher
necklaces and Dream Catcher watch. Want to make sure I "catch" everything you
say...and how long it takes.....;-).
And you mean to say you have been deleting my words of sometimes humorous
wisdom..?
I will buy you a drink for being brave.
Look for the large lady with the miniature Crow horse collar around her neck.
You can't miss me. And you won't be able to miss me without the collar....I have
a tendency to run over people. You can also listen for the Southern accent and
the screams of laughter. Love to laugh....love to win a good point and love to
learn. So don't hesitate to come up and say....I'm Richard James from the
internet and give me a good hug....I always need a good hug.
Linda Holley
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com
SWzypher@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes:
>
> << . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be
> there....>>
>
> Linda
> Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very
> perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality.
>
> I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without
> reading.
>
> Most Sincerly
> Richard James
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 15:47:42 -0400
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dream Catchers....oh yea>>??? 1990????
Linda Holley wrote:
> I think we can find plenty of documentation of before 1990. How about 1950???
> 1940? 1930? or so. There are plenty of documentation's after 1950....before that
> there is a great deal of vagueness.
> Each site is different:
> http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/drmabout.html
> http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamfaq.html
> http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamcat.html
>
> I am enclosing this web site on catchers.....dig through it.....there are some
> very interesting items of information.
>
> Linda Holley
>
> SWzypher@aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes:
> >
> > << I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians
> >
> > didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >>
> >
> > I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation??
> > RJames
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
Calls the Wind,
I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant.
I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the
good Capt's
message. He summed it up rather well as usual.
My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an
example. I've no doubt that
he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream
of matching. Does this qualify him
as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century
Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily,
unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if
we talked to him about period correctness
and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It
reminds me of questioning Native Americans
about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course
it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian
and I made it so it's authentic."
Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned
from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the
most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy
Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now,
who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of
Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets!
What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve
"Mountain Men" who lined up
on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent
over and displayed a sizeable portion
of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies.
The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest.
Never saw that in a Miller painting.
I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed
impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations
on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the
old timer and professed "veteran" it's
inexcusable.
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:06:42 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
D, No, for one, I don't think your being a hard headed prick.(of course, I
don't know you personally)but, the sentiments you voice here, I agree with
whole heartedly.
The proof should not be on us to prove Indians DIDN'T use dreamcatchers
pre-1840. It should be that we prove that they DID use them before 1840.
I've never seen any documentation on dream catchers anywhere before 1840. I
feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread
proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research
then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn
about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from who
knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That
simply is not the way to do research.
In the 1970-1980's it was god's eyes, now, it's dreamcatchers. What fad will
come along next is anybodys guess.
In a good way,
Don Secondine
>From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400
>
>Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't
>wanna",
> "if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs
>on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying
>to
>correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research,
>experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think.
>My $.02.
>
>Am I being a hardheaded prick again???
>D
>
>
>"Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from
>babies"
>-Me
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:20:44 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
I believe you've hit the nail square on the head again, Teton! Hope to share
a fire with you one of these days.
Later,
Don Secondine
>From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600
>
>Calls the Wind,
>
> I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant.
>I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the
>good Capt's
>message. He summed it up rather well as usual.
> My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an
>example. I've no doubt that
>he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream
>of matching. Does this qualify him
>as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century
>Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily,
>unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if
>we talked to him about period correctness
>and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It
>reminds me of questioning Native Americans
>about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course
>it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian
>and I made it so it's authentic."
> Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned
>from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the
>most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy
>Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now,
>who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of
>Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets!
>What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve
>"Mountain Men" who lined up
>on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent
>over and displayed a sizeable portion
>of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies.
>The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest.
>Never saw that in a Miller painting.
> I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed
>impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations
>on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the
>old timer and professed "veteran" it's
>inexcusable.
>
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover
>http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:01:17 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
> Am I being a hardheaded prick again???
> D
Yes, but we have come to expect it so don't go changing. You'll throw us all
off balance. <G>
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:06:48 EDT
From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
Brother Ole, thanks
Two Bear
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:44:25 -0400
From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
" don't go changing. You'll throw us all off balance. "
Rog,
Don't you worry none..Won't do it.... I have to be as I am, to balance that
sickening "understanding & nurturing" portion of this hobby...<G>
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Knives and Iron Accouterments
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
"Knowing how is just the beginning."
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 20:42:13 -0400
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854
linda---
darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin
here---
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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