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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #855
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
hist_text-digest Friday, September 7 2001 Volume 01 : Number 855
In this issue:
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853/Commercial Hides
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
-áááááá MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853/Commercial Hides
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 02:03:02 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
In a message dated 9/7/1 6:24:36 AM, Bublitz@aol.com writes:
<< . . . .for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you
get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn how you
guys like to do it? >>
You described a saddle stitch. To make it even stronger, you can throw an
overhand knot into the stitch - just tie the knot with the two sets of
needles and the knot will end up inside the leather stitch. This is a
technique of cordswainers (shoemakers).
Another stitch is the welted seam where a third strip of leather is inserted
between the two primary edges and all stitched together. Use a runnins
stitch where you come out of the leather for about a space of 1/16th of an
inch or less and then stitch at an angle through all three pieces, come out,
space 1/16th . . . . . . This is the typical stitch used by all Indians (NOT
the saddle stitch!). Stitch inside out then turn right side out and trip the
welt. Or you may use longer pieces of scrap for the welt and later use it
for fringe rather than trim it off. Check original Indian pieces in museums
for examples. It makes the seam kinda wavey. There is practically nothing
of the stitch exposed (opposite to the case of the saddle stitch) and so no
wear and no way to determine what materials were used to stitch with . . .
silk? linnen? sinue?
Richard James
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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:16:06 EDT
From: Mandan1727@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853/Commercial Hides
- --part1_51.10be94aa.28c9ce36_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Hello the list!
You were talking about Orange glow inthe dark Commercial tanned hides.
My first pair of Leggings I made where that color, and I just washed them a
time or two in the (RIT Dye remover) you can find at most stores. Just stick
them right in the washin machine. It turns them a somewhat smoked color. Now
when I put them on I don't stick out like a sore thumb. Thanks again Hardtack
for this tip!
Mandan
- --part1_51.10be94aa.28c9ce36_boundary
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2> Hello the list!
<BR>You were talking about Orange glow inthe dark Commercial tanned hides.
<BR>My first pair of Leggings I made where that color, and I just washed them a
<BR>time or two in the (RIT Dye remover) you can find at most stores. Just stick
<BR>them right in the washin machine. It turns them a somewhat smoked color. Now
<BR>when I put them on I don't stick out like a sore thumb. Thanks again Hardtack
<BR>for this tip!
<BR>
<BR> Mandan </FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:17:24 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
Sound wisdom,Teton
Good for all to hear a little preachin' once in awhile. In my humble
opinion, none of us have arrived yet. The folks that are "runnin' around",
think that they have arrived and are satisfied with their gear or have an
attitude of "if they'd had it, they'd of used it. There are guys that I knew
that are still wearing their first pair of day-glo elk hide pants they made
20 yrs. ago. With all the knowledge we have gained over the last 20 yrs. on
clothing and other material culture of the trade, that's inexcusable. The
difference is attitude, some folks want to keep learning and sharing, others
are looking for ways to justify what they have and are not teachable. No, we
haven't arrived yet, but,our eye is on a landmark and we're headed straight
that direction instead of "runnin, around".
Keep readin' and updating as needed.
Now, I'll get off the stump,
Don Secondine
>From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
>Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:43:00 -0600
>
>"Some of the best buckskinners I know are still running around in
>commercially tanned skins. (Some of them/us choose not to join AMM even
>though we could pass muster.) Also, there are literally hundreds of
>colors
>of commercial hide anymore that would pass muster for the correct
>color/colors which you can even go to the trouble of smoking if you feel
>that you need or want that."
>
>Kim,
>
>I was sitting here ruminating on Capt Lahti's well thought out response,
>and have the following thoughts to add.
>
>Folks who attend rendezvous and dress up in historical clothing all have
>some purpose in mind. They are there to
>have fun, hang out with friends, try to educate others etc. There are
>many reasons. If one attends to simply socialize and
>have fun, it puzzles me why they even try to dress in historical
>clothing. If they have any intention whatsoever of educating the public,
>then they owe it to the public to do so accurately. As a friend so aptly
>defines it, "Can be seen from space day glow chrome tan" leather never
>existed during the fur trade. I understand the economic temptation of
>using it. If one does, I think they should at least do all they can to
>alter and disguise it.
>It is my personal opinion that people shouldn't attend rendezvous
>portraying some fictional being. To me, a person wearing all chrome
>tanned clothing and dripping with loomed or improperly patterned beadwork
>or festooned with feathers, bones and beads and capped off with any
>number of fur hats is as equally fictional and out of place at a historic
>reenactment as the average tourist walking by.
> In your statement that "Some of the best buckskinners I know are
>still running around in commercially tanned skins" implies they have yet
>to arrive at some unspecified destination and are rather "still running
>around." I wonder if they will ever decide to stop running around and
>chose to arrive? What is it that qualifies these folks as "Some of the
>best buckskinners I know"? The key may be that word "Buckskinner." I
>think that is the title given to the fictional being identified above. I
>am puzzled by where "Buckskinners" come up with the ideas they have
>sometimes. Many have apparently never cracked a book to see what were the
>proper materials and style of the time period they purport to represent.
>Often it is their own imaginations and ingenuity that guides them. Or
>perhaps the impressions left by some equally misguided buckskinner.
> It is not my intention to in any way imply that folks who wear
>such clothing as mentioned above should not be allowed to attend
>rendezvous. I welcome them as possible recruits to a more accurate
>portrayal of the time period.
> I've rambled longer than I intended, yet I'm not sure I've made
>my point. I guess a final thought might be summed up in the cliche
>"Anything worth doing, is worth doing right."
>
>
>"Teton" Todd D. Glover
>http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
>
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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:56:37 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@cox-internet.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
When my shirt was made by my wife, I'd had the hide commercially tanned
because, at the time, I figured "tanning is tanning". I'd heard of brain
tanning but did not have any input that one method was better or worse than
the other. Fortunately it is a sorta tan or butternut color, not offensive
orange.
My pants were made by a friend for me of elk, commercially tanned and
natural grayish white. They are the most comfortable garment I have ever
owned, except in hot weather.
Both were stitched with 'authentic' artificial sinew because we thought,
at the time, that stuff was the cats meow.
They don't match, but I don't think everything came from 'The Gap' back
then. I think they look pretty good.
Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point
that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and
liver mixture.
I'm not going to discard them. I like the pants and the shirt skins were
killed by me with a very historically important rifle, I'm pretty proud of
it.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:26:35 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM?
An "honorary" member, so to speak?
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SWzypher@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
> Ole
>
> Slim Pickins should be on this list as well. I know he paid for three
years
> membership. Once on sign-up and a renewal for two years.
>
> Dick James
>
> P.S. Who is this Ole at the top of the deceased list???
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:51:39 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
You don't need as much of a seam for leather as on cloth due to the
thickness of the material. With that in mind, when you make a trial cloth
example (a good idea) use a heavier material to more closely duplicate the
leather durability. Try a heavy, inexpensive canvas.
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <HikingOnThru@cs.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
In a message dated 9/6/01 8:29:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rfbac@execpc.com
writes:
<< IΓÇÖve never sown a thing before so this is going to
be a big project. Regardless of how it turns out, >>
I would STRONGLY encourage you to do a good amount of reading on the cutting
and sewing of leather. Apparently, you have to make some different seam and
length allowances for leather. Also, if you have never sewn before let me
offer a couple of helpful hints. If you get a pattern (and you will) use
the
paper pattern and transfer it to poster board. The poster board pattern
will
lay flatter on your fabric/leather and give more reliable tracings. Also,
take the time to sew up an old sheet to see what the pattern is like and if
it will look ok on you. Get some scrap leather and practice doing the
various stitches used in leather sewing!!! Best of luck and let us see how
the shirt turns out. Also, if you are a large to extra large fellow...3
skins may not be enough unless they are just really large....again,
Deerskins
into Buckskins has a lot of good info on leather sewing.
- -C.Kent
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:40:17 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C13778.B8C05460
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hardtack,
I do it the way you say I shouldn't! <G> Thanks for the tutorial on =
proper stitching technique. I will try to incorporate it into my next =
leather project.=20
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bublitz@aol.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
sorry about the blank post prior to this one......=20
Dick's new shirt project brought up a question...... What is =
everyone's=20
favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone =
have=20
any neat tricks, etc..... ? ?=20
I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I =
made a=20
punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then =
sharpened the=20
tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line =
along=20
the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and =
strike (4=20
holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), =
etc...... =20
This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then =
take two=20
dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I =
tie=20
the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles=20
equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each =
hand, with=20
a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a =
stitch=20
pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. =
Now you=20
have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole =
from=20
opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It =
looks=20
good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then =
catch up=20
with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. =
Once you=20
get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn =
how you=20
guys like to do it? hardtack=20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C13778.B8C05460
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hardtack,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I do it the way you say I shouldn't! =
<G>=20
Thanks for the tutorial on proper stitching technique. I will try to =
incorporate=20
it into my next leather project. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:Bublitz@aol.com" =
title=3DBublitz@aol.com>Bublitz@aol.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 06, =
2001 10:05=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: sewing =
tips</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>sorry about =
the blank=20
post prior to this one...... <BR>Dick's new shirt project brought up a =
question...... What is everyone's =
<BR>favorite=20
sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone =
have=20
<BR>any neat tricks, etc..... ? ? =
<BR> I=20
tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made =
a=20
<BR>punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then =
sharpened the <BR>tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of =
leather=20
and score a line along <BR>the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 =
prong=20
punch along the line and strike (4 <BR>holes). Place fork in last =
hole, strike=20
again (3 more holes), etc...... <BR>This leaves me =
a nice=20
straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two <BR>dull =
pointed=20
needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie =
<BR>the=20
ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles =
<BR>equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a =
needle in=20
each hand, with <BR>a double string in between with the knot in the =
middle.=20
To start a stitch <BR>pass one needle through the first hole and =
pull=20
knot up to the hole. Now you <BR>have a needle on each side. =
pass each=20
needle through the next hole from <BR>opposite sides, repeat , etc.... =
This is called a saddle stitch. It looks <BR>good, and is =
very=20
strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up =
<BR>with the=20
other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. =
Once you=20
<BR>get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm =
interested=20
to learn how you <BR>guys like to do it? =
hardtack</FONT>=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C13778.B8C05460--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:58:09 -0700
From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
> Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this
point
> that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and
> liver mixture.
Frank,
I understand your reluctance to discard them. If nothing else, there are
lots of memories tied up in them. But whos to say they can't be
restyled/resewn if that is appropriate? In any case rubbing them with brain
or liver solution isn't what will give them the feel of brain tan. It is the
presence of the scarf skin (epidermis layer) still on the leather that is
the biggest difference from such commercially tanned leathers and brain tan.
All the brain and liver solutions do is wash out the "hide glue" so the
fibers that make up the hide will lay separately and not "glued" together.
Commercial tanning does this with chemicals.
I would think your best bet would be to disassemble the garments, wet and
stretch them, let them dry on that hard smooth surface, sand the scarf skin
off best you can with that sander and sheet rock pad, then reassemble them
using sinew or linen thread if you care to. You may need to put in new welts
as that is a very small piece of leather to try to rework or deal with but
it's just an option.
Hope this helps and gives some encouragement. You won't hurt the leather by
running it through some rite dye remover either.
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:21:28 -0400
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt
On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:22:04 -0500 Richard Bacon <rfbac@execpc.com>
writes:
>when I get done with the shirt; the pants will be next.
Dick
You probably have a ready made pattern there pard and dont know
it-----get one of your worn out pairs of levies that you have and rip out
the seams---but leave them attached lay this on the leather and add
about 1/2 inch for your sewing seams---then where the zipper is add a
flap on both sides about 6" long---be sure to reinforce the crotch and
the back where the seam is then add a tye buttton or such for closure and
get a pair of good gallicus or belt to hold them up---dont worry if they
are a bit tight when you first make them "they gonna streach" a bit when
you wear them especially in the knees as they get to having
charactor---if the hides are not big enough you can add leather to get
the length you need---usually for a pretty big guy it takes about 3 hides
with one for each side and one for extention of the legs---(what i call
10sq hides or medium sized ones)--I also add a reinforcement at the
bottom of the leg---normally i leave the bottom rough ---if you have to
add hide to get the length you can add a bit for a due breaker fringe
around the calf of the leg---it works and keeps the moisture from going
up the pants and helps to make it dry a bit quicker when wet ---some of
the other guys can tell you how they make theres---Have made several
pairs for people and that is what i use for a pattern for their
pants---tell them to bring me a pair of their old levies and i cut them
open for my pattern-----"the funny thing they always seem to fit right"
without having to alter them---
"HAWK"
Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:51:27 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
I still use commercially tanned leather for my trousers and moccasins
but there are two elk hides in my garage that will provide replacements for
them when I brain-tan them. My current leather works fine and looks good
but I am on a journey to be as period-correct as my time, knowledge and
money will allow. Brain-tanned leather is an interesting product. It's
free if you do it yourself but very expensive if you pay someone to do it
for you. Hand labor as opposed to machine work always costs more in
time/effort or money. Commercial leather works for the rest of us. Orange
hides can be approved on for a more period look if you're interested. I
assume you're participating in this list because you are interested.
This list is open to all for discussions on the fur trade period. But
unlike other "rendezvous/black powder/buckskinning" chat groups it is meant
to be based on experience and research specifically into this period of time
we all love so much. Other lists are more interested in the rendezvous
"culture". This list is sponsored by, but not limited to, members of the
AMM. Our goals and objectives are clearly stated on our website. Basically,
we are a group of former "buckskinners" who eventually came to see that to
truly understand the life and times of the American mountain man you had to
experience more than just the six weeks of party that the rendezvous
represented.
In my case, I looked around one day and realized that my "club" could no
longer teach me the things I wanted to learn. My buckskinning club was a
wonderful place to raise my kids in. We had all the stuff to make us
comfortable and still look the "part". The rendezvous movement still does
these things well. And it is enough for most of us. But for those that
really have an interest in learning about this period first hand from
experienced teachers, there is the AMM. We're not for everyone. Most
people aren't interested in learning primitive survival techniques on a
continuous basis. Some are not "joiners". Some are so social that there is
no room for listening or learning. Some refuse to teach the skills they've
learned. Many are not physically able to endure the inconvenience/hardships
that the skills require. But all of us can come to this site to learn more.
To drink from this fountain of collected wisdom.
And all experience and research is welcome. Some tips are general.
(Hardtack's tip on a four pronged "awl" was an great example.) Some tips
are useful to only those who do competition shooting. (Personally, I'm
bored to death by the smoothbore rear sight discussion.) And some tips that
pertain to the black powder/rendezvous culture will reach a more
appreciative audience on a different site. Building a better folding camp
table or disguising a plastic water jug with a canvas cover labeled
"American Fur Co." is not what this group is all about. So ask your
questions and share your knowledge. You don't need to defend yourself about
how you keep your camp...unless you ask for advice and don't like what you
hear.
See you on the trail.
Larry Huber AMM #1517
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim & Jen" <kimanjen@wyoming.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:01 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
> Hau, Richard;
> In regard to Cap'n L's info, he's so right. However, if you must use the
> pumpkin orange skins, (assuming that is what you have) as he said use the
> slick side in. Yes, as stated by someone else you'll have a problem with
> sweat. There is one good thing about all of this. once the slick side
gets
> wet, it begins to breathe and you are almost as cool as you would be with
> brain tan.
> I do have one problem with those that say that you have to either not buy
> commercial, or that you need to throw the commercial away and buy brain
tan
> for several reasons. I have no grumble with anyone saying that brain tan
is
> better, it is, but it is out of some people's ball park when it comes to
> price. If you are not AMM it is not a requisite that you have brain tan.
> Some of the best buckskinners I know are still running around in
> commercially tanned skins. (Some of them/us choose not to join AMM even
> though we could pass muster.) Also, there are literally hundreds of
colors
> of commercial hide anymore that would pass muster for the correct
> color/colors which you can even go to the trouble of smoking if you feel
> that you need or want that.
> I am disabled and still doing the rendezvous circuit as a trader as much
as
> my limitations will allow. Since most of my skins are of the
> shooter/thrower/participant, I sometimes don't fit for the correct trader
> clothing. Oh well, we do the best that we can.
> One more thing. I believe that buckskining should be a family thing if
you
> can pull it off. That leaves the women portraying either missionary women
> or Indian women, if you are TRULY being period correct the kids are stuck
> with being Indians as, apparently, there were no white children out here
in
> the fur trade country during the period. To outfit the whole group of
> people with brain tan is either very expensive or one hell of a lot of
work
> for both you and the wife. My advise is to ease into things as easily and
> cheaply as possible. If one steps into his first rondy totally period
> correct on everything he owns is one hell of a burden to put on someone
who
> wants to try something new and fun.
> By the way, Bodmer and Catlin might not have painted or drawn any of the
> mountaineers with long fringe but that doesn't mean that those of us who
> married Indian women didn't wear pants or leggin's with long fringe. Of
> course, that's just my opinion.
> Respectfully;
> Kim "CallsTheWind" Curtis
> CHECK OUT OUR HOMEPAGE:
> www.geocities.com/jenaka/index
>
> > Richard,
> >
> > I presume you have had those hides commercially tanned? And they are of
a
> > golden color?
> >
> > Firstly, as has been offered by others, nothing beats brain tan for
> garment
> > leather appropriate to the 1800's Rocky Mt. Fur Trade era. But that is
> > probably news that's too late for you. There are a few things you should
> > keep in mind about the leather you do have. Since it is of the color
that
> > tanneries normally use, it is not the right color to be historically
> > correct. Not that you can't use it but you did want to know. Secondly,
> with
> > the "scarf skin" (where the hair comes out) still on the hide, it will
> > stretch, be hot, be cold, be less than it could be. Getting it wet and
> > stretching it before you make clothing out of it will help but not that
> > much.
> >
> > Your best bet is to take the scarf skin off. It is a simple process. Get
> the
> > hide wet, stretch it out on a very flat smooth sheet of plywood and let
it
> > dry. Use an oscillating/vibrating hand sander with a sheet rock sanding
> pad
> > installed, carefully rough up the scarf skin side. You can take it
> > completely off if your careful but it isn't necessary. Just rough it up
> > good.
> >
> > You can also experiment with Rit Dye Remover on some scrap to see if you
> can
> > take the color out. The hide should be a very faint tan somewhere
between
> > white and grayish tan. You can even smoke it after you get the original
> > color out and make it more like brain tan. If you do not decide to do
> this,
> > at lest use the leather rough side out. It will look a lot better.
> >
> > Whether you go this far or not, the next question is clothing patterns.
> Most
> > clothing you see at Rendezvous today is not correct for the 1800's.
> > Particularly the leather clothing. You might make a pair of tight
legged
> > drop front pants and perhaps a somewhat fitted coat from your hides but
> most
> > original sketches of that era show men wearing cloth shirts. A small
> amount
> > of very fine fringe down side seams is not out of the question but do
not
> go
> > overboard on length and stay away from gaudy decorations in the Indian
> mode.
> > Just not appropriate for a white man in the fur business, contrary to
what
> > your rendezvous friends might say or believe. Of course if you want to
do
> > it, your free to do so. Just won't be right for the period. If you want
> > visuals, get ahold of some Miller Sketches. He was a contemporary artist
> > that drew and later painted the scenes from the original Rendesvous. His
> > sketches show better detail without later artistic license.
> >
> > In any case, it will be worth the effort to take that scarf skin off.
The
> > leather will be soft and warm and will function almost as well as brain
> tan
> > which is like velvet when done right.
> >
> > "I got the impression
> > that just as its personal preference on how you cut and sew your shirt
> > it was personal preference on what side you wanted out too."
> >
> > It is personal preference in modern buckskinning. It was not personal
> > preference in the 1800's. Don't get the two mixed up. Most of what you
saw
> > was modern ideas somewhat off the mark from what they really wore. I'm
> sure
> > you saw very few correct outfits. Though I could be wrong. In any case
> it's
> > your leather, do as you will. And best of luck.
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:46:17 -0400
From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853
"unless you ask for advice and don't like what you hear."
Larry,
But that is what stats 90% of the good, blood letting arguments.. When
someone asks "what do you think?" and they get a unvarnished, straight
answer.><G>
D
"Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from
babies"
- -Me
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:47:10 -0600
From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853/Commercial Hides
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Mandan,
That's what I'm talking about. If everyone would make that effort to
disguise those day glow buckskins, then there would be less need for al
those sunglasses we see!
On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:16:06 EDT Mandan1727@aol.com writes:
Hello the list!
You were talking about Orange glow inthe dark Commercial tanned hides.
My first pair of Leggings I made where that color, and I just washed
them a
time or two in the (RIT Dye remover) you can find at most stores. Just
stick
them right in the washin machine. It turns them a somewhat smoked color.
Now
when I put them on I don't stick out like a sore thumb. Thanks again
Hardtack
for this tip!
Mandan
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Mandan,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That's what I'm talking about. If everyone would make that effort to=20
disguise those day glow buckskins, then there would be less need for al =
those=20
sunglasses we see!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:16:06 EDT <A=20
href=3D"mailto:Mandan1727@aol.com">Mandan1727@aol.com</A> writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: =
10px">
<DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2> =
Hello the=20
list! <BR>You were talking about Orange glow inthe dark Commercial tanned=
=20
hides. <BR>My first pair of Leggings I made where that color, and I=
just=20
washed them a <BR>time or two in the (RIT Dye remover) you can find at =
most=20
stores. Just stick <BR>them right in the washin machine. It turns =
them a=20
somewhat smoked color. Now <BR>when I put them on I don't stick out like =
a=20
sore thumb. Thanks again Hardtack <BR>for this tip!=20
<BR><BR>  =
; &=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; &=
nbsp; Mandan=20
</FONT> </FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"Teton" Todd D.=20
Glover<BR>http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html<BR></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:30:12 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan?
In a message dated 9/7/1 2:57:48 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes:
<< Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point
that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and
liver mixture.>>
You can smoke them. They will take on a more uniform color - though
sleightly mottled - and you will smell good enough to eat.
Richard James
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:32:38 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
In a message dated 9/7/1 4:03:59 PM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes:
<<Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM?
An "honorary" member, so to speak?
>>
He had a number. He paid his first years dues and when he came up for
renewal his wife sent a check for two years. I know. I deposited it in the
AMM account and forwarded his card.
Most sincerly
Richard James
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:33:00 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under
In a message dated 9/7/1 4:03:59 PM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes:
<<Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM?
An "honorary" member, so to speak?
>>
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:07:29 -0700
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips
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I have made several leather shirts using common sense and observation of
tailored cloth shirts, but read my note at the bottom before continuing.
Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with sinew too
(the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise,
handled the same).
Mostly, I lay the two leather pieces together, sewing inside out, so the
resulting seam will be to the inside, and punch my holes thru both pieces at
once, so they automatically align. A single awl also works OK. A soft board
or bed of cork for the awl to poke into is helpful. You can punch a few
inches worth of holes, sew them before you lose your place, and continue
punching.
The way I make a simple pullover shirt is as follows:
- --As noted, begin by wetting and stretching commercial tanned skins and
allowing to dry stretched. This occurs naturally in the final processing of
brain tanned.
- --Select two skins, one front and one back, and orient in the direction of
the original animal (shoulders matched to your shoulders). The usual wedge
shape should hopefully cover your torso. This puts the thicker areas front
and back with the thinner areas along the sides. I agree with putting the
slick side in, and if you wear any skins long enough, the inside will get
slick and greasy anyway.
- --Examine a commercial shirt, and note how the seams from neck hole to
shoulders are placed somewhat forward of the center of the garment. Note
also, the slant, of the shoulders, taking account of your own shoulders.
- --After establishing where the skins seem to cover you best, using clamps,
staples, or an assistent, establish the shoulder seams, and where the neck
hole will fall. You will now have to start cutting, always a momentous step,
but this method minimizes risk. Turn the skins inside out (smooth side out)
and sew the two shoulders along the marked lines. It is not actually
necessary to cut yet, or at least, leave some margin in case of adjustments.
You probably will need to make a minimum cut in each skin for the neck hole,
keeping in mind you can always trim more off, but it's annoying to put
anything back.
- --Sew the two shoulder seams, about six inches each, on each side of the
neck hole. You should now have a poncho-like garment you can actually drape
over your head. Put it on, and assess the neck hole and shoulder seams. Trim
the neck opening reasonably well so the shirt lays on you. Clamp the leather
together under your arms, and start establishing the side seams. Go slowly
however, make sure the shoulder fit is good. It's a small amount of sewing
to re-do at this point.
- --Mark the side seams, leaving some slack for pulling it off, and don't make
the arm holes too tight. Here is where you will note that for most
comfortable fit the shoulder seam will be slightly front of center. In
particular, mark where the sides come together most naturally while wearing
the shirt, as it will not lie flat when you take it off to sew it.
- --Sew a few inches of side seam, and recheck the fit. NOTE: you are sewing
inside out, and it is not necessary to trim the leather all the way back to
the seams initially, in case you have to let it out some.
- --When confident of fit, sew the sides all the way past your belt line, but
you can leave the last few inches open below the waist.
- --You should now have a tunic with no arms. Check the fit again and make any
adjustments. Again, allow for slack under the arms.
- --You may apply a collar or cape now or later, using period patterns for
suggestions. When you do the collar, you will of course have to complete
establishing the neck opening.
- --Trim the leather back to within about 1/4-inch of your seams, ONLY AFTER
you are quite confident that it fits well. To attach the arms as noted
below, you will need to work right-side out.
- --The arms take more leather than you might think. Ideally, you will have a
large, thin skin with enough for two arms, or even two small skins. Put the
thin part inside the elbow. Wrap the skin around your arm and match the
upper diameter to the armholes of your tunic, keeping in mind you need to be
able to raise your arms overhead. Usually, sewing the arms so they poke out
at right angles is OK, Again, check how commercial shirts do it. The arms
should be quite tapered.
- --The arms will tend to bunch up lengthwise as you wear it, so make the
sleeves as long as you can. Fold back the excess into cuffs. Long cuffs can
be let down as partial gloves, to handle hot pans, etc.
- --As before, the seam along the arms is butt-seamed and sewed inside out.
Usually, you need only one seam, along the inside, unless having to piece
together smaller remnants.
- --To connect the arms to the tunic, I have had good results by lap-seaming
the arms inside the tunic. By putting the arms inside the tunic, and saddle
stitching the overlapped area, you get a smooth join, AND the excess
material left on the tunic that hangs over the shoulders can be trimmed into
a bit of decorative fringing.
- --I recommend against long fringe on sleeves and down the side, as it
catches on stuff, drags in your food, and bunches up underneath you when
sleeping. You can fringe the lower edge of the tunic for decoration if you
like.
- --I can offer no particular documentation for the resulting pullover shirt,
other than it uses basic European designs, was also seen in northern tribes
where wind proofing is an issue, and of course uses primitive materials. The
general pattern resembles what you would get if you duplicated a period
cloth shirt with available leather and the simplest construction. Most
references to "hunting shirts" describe a long open-front leather shirt,
worn over a cloth shirt, sort of like a leather capote (without the hood).
The pullover shirt described here is more of a primary shirt that you would
add outer layers to as required.
Good luck
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bublitz@aol.com [mailto:Bublitz@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:06 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips
sorry about the blank post prior to this one......
Dick's new shirt project brought up a question...... What is everyone's
favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone have
any neat tricks, etc..... ? ?
I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a
punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the
tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along
the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4
holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc......
This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take
two
dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie
the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles
equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with
a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch
pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now
you
have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from
opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks
good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up
with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you
get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn how you
guys like to do it? hardtack
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>I have
made several leather shirts using common sense and observation of tailored cloth
shirts, but read my note at the bottom before continuing.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001>Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works
well with sinew too (the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your
source, but otherwise, handled the same). </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001>Mostly, I lay the two leather pieces together, sewing
inside out, so the resulting seam will be to the inside, and punch my holes thru
both pieces at once, so they automatically align. A single awl also works OK. A
soft board or bed of cork for the awl to poke into is helpful. You can punch a
few inches worth of holes, sew them before you lose your place, and continue
punching. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>The
way I make a simple pullover shirt is as follows:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--As
noted, begin by wetting and stretching commercial tanned skins and allowing to
dry stretched. This occurs naturally in the final processing of brain tanned.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001>--Select two skins, one front and one back, and orient
in the direction of the original animal (shoulders matched to your shoulders).
The usual wedge shape should hopefully cover your torso. This puts the thicker
areas front and back with the thinner areas along the sides. I agree with
putting the slick side in, and if you wear any skins long enough, the inside
will get slick and greasy anyway.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001>--Examine a commercial shirt, and note how the seams
from neck hole to shoulders are placed somewhat forward of the center of the
garment. Note also, the slant, of the shoulders, taking account of your own
shoulders.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=712141520-07092001>--After establishing where the skins seem to cover you
best, using clamps, staples, or an assistent, establish the shoulder seams, and
where the neck hole will fall. You will now have to start cutting, always a
momentous step, but this method minimizes risk. Turn the skins inside out
(smooth side out) and sew the two shoulders along the marked lines. It is not
actually necessary to cut yet, or at least, leave some margin in case of
adjustments. You probably will need to make a minimum cut in each skin for the
neck hole, keeping in mind you can always trim more off, but it's annoying to
put anything back. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--Sew
the two shoulder seams, about six inches each, on each side of the neck hole.
You should now have a poncho-like garment you can actually drape over your head.
Put it on, and assess the neck hole and shoulder seams. Trim the neck
opening reasonably well so the shirt lays on you. Clamp the leather together
under your arms, and start establishing the side seams. Go slowly however, make
sure the shoulder fit is good. It's a small amount of sewing to re-do at this
point. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--Mark
the side seams, leaving some slack for pulling it off, and don't make the arm
holes too tight. Here is where you will note that for most comfortable fit the
shoulder seam will be slightly front of center. In particular, mark where the
sides come together most naturally while wearing the shirt, as it will not lie
flat when you take it off to sew it. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--Sew
a few inches of side seam, and recheck the fit. NOTE: you are sewing inside out,
and it is not necessary to trim the leather all the way back to the seams
initially, in case you have to let it out some. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--When
confident of fit, sew the sides all the way past your belt line, but you can
leave the last few inches open below the waist. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--You
should now have a tunic with no arms. Check the fit again and make any
adjustments. Again, allow for slack under the arms. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--You
may apply a collar or cape now or later, using period patterns for suggestions.
When you do the collar, you will of course have to complete establishing the
neck opening.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--Trim
the leather back to within about 1/4-inch of your seams, ONLY AFTER you are
quite confident that it fits well. To attach the arms as noted below, you will
need to work right-side out. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--The
arms take more leather than you might think. Ideally, you will have a large,
thin skin with enough for two arms, or even two small skins. Put the thin part
inside the elbow. Wrap the skin around your arm and match the upper diameter to
the armholes of your tunic, keeping in mind you need to be able to raise your
arms overhead. Usually, sewing the arms so they poke out at right angles is OK,
Again, check how commercial shirts do it. The arms should be quite tapered.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--The
arms will tend to bunch up lengthwise as you wear it, so make the sleeves as
long as you can. Fold back the excess into cuffs. Long cuffs can be let down as
partial gloves, to handle hot pans, etc. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--As
before, the seam along the arms is butt-seamed and sewed inside out. Usually,
you need only one seam, along the inside, unless having to piece together
smaller remnants. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--To
connect the arms to the tunic, I have had good results by lap-seaming the
arms inside the tunic. By putting the arms inside the tunic, and saddle
stitching the overlapped area, you get a smooth join, AND the excess material
left on the tunic that hangs over the shoulders can be trimmed into a bit of
decorative fringing. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--I
recommend against long fringe on sleeves and down the side, as it catches on
stuff, drags in your food, and bunches up underneath you when sleeping. You can
fringe the lower edge of the tunic for decoration if you like.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>--I
can offer no particular documentation for the resulting pullover shirt, other
than it uses basic European designs, was also seen in northern tribes where wind
proofing is an issue, and of course uses primitive materials. The general
pattern resembles what you would get if you duplicated a period cloth shirt with
available leather and the simplest construction. Most references to "hunting
shirts" describe a long open-front leather shirt, worn over a cloth shirt, sort
of like a leather capote (without the hood). The pullover shirt described here
is more of a primary shirt that you would add outer layers to as required.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>Good
luck</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=712141520-07092001>Pat
Quilter</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bublitz@aol.com
[mailto:Bublitz@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:06
PM<BR><B>To:</B> hist_text@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
MtMan-List: sewing tips<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT
size=2>sorry about the blank post prior to this one...... <BR>Dick's new shirt
project brought up a question...... What is
everyone's <BR>favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ?
Does anyone have <BR>any neat tricks, etc..... ? ?
<BR> I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together.
For instance, I made a <BR>punch out of an old fork. I cut most of
the handle off, then sharpened the <BR>tines with a file. I take a pre
cut piece of leather and score a line along <BR>the edge to be sewn . I
align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4 <BR>holes). Place fork in
last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc...... <BR>This
leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two
<BR>dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread.
I tie <BR>the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring
the needles <BR>equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a
needle in each hand, with <BR>a double string in between with the knot in the
middle. To start a stitch <BR>pass one needle through the first hole and
pull knot up to the hole. Now you <BR>have a needle on each side. pass
each needle through the next hole from <BR>opposite sides, repeat , etc....
This is called a saddle stitch. It looks <BR>good, and is very
strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up <BR>with the
other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you
<BR>get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested
to learn how you <BR>guys like to do it? hardtack</FONT>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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