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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, September 6 2001 Volume 01 : Number 854 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Double three point blankets -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: smoothbore rear sights -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -áááááá MtMan-List: Delaware Indian Trappers -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -áááááá MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: what exactly do "YOU" carry in your possibles bag? -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:58:32 -0600 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Double three point blankets > THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT. Your mail reader does not support MIME. > Please read the first section, which is plain text, and ignore the rest. - --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y4659 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Dennis, He's not really that old or forgetful, that's another handy tool he uses to his advantage when trading, believe me has had great success playing that game - like a fox. He's always fair but usually comes out a little ahead of the game with his dealings, one reason why Buck is highly thought of because he won't short anyone. He's down in "Grizz" Hayward's area now doing something for the phone company in Cedar City and St. George, plus looking at property, then stopping at the AMM property on the way back in. Should be back middle of next week, get hold of him on the blankets, if he doesn't want to sell what he has he make know of others that are available. Mr. Miles, I saw a letter Buck wrote to the editor about that fool that was crying about you in Muzzleloader, started at something like; Bill, In reference to that "know-nothing" piece of cramp that wrote....... <G><G> should be interesting to see if Bill prints it, you know your buddy when someone bad mouths a friend. Take care folks and you Dennis. </TT> <TT>Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith _____________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__ http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__ [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign" _____________________________________________</TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> - --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y4659 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="OriginalBody.htm" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OriginalBody.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: OriginalBody.htm PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9u YWwvL0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGUg Y29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PWlzby04ODU5LTEiPg0KPE1FVEEgDQpjb250 ZW50PSJjb21tdG91Y2gsIHByb250bywgbWFpbCwgZnJlZSBlbWFpbCwgZnJlZSwgYnJhbmRl ZCwgd2ViIGJhc2VkLCBmcmVlIHdlYiBiYXNlZCBlbWFpbCwgY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMsIGlu dGVybmV0LCBzb2Z0d2FyZSwgYWR2ZXJ0aXNpbmcgYmFubmVycywgZS1tYWlsLCBmcmVlIHNv ZnR3YXJlIiANCm5hbWU9a2V5d29yZHM+DQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PSJNU0hUTUwgNS41MC40 NjExLjEzMDAiIG5hbWU9R0VORVJBVE9SPg0KPFNUWUxFPjwvU1RZTEU+DQo8L0hFQUQ+DQo8 Qk9EWSBiZ0NvbG9yPSNmZmZmZmY+DQo8RElWPjxGT05UIGZhY2U9QXJpYWwgc2l6ZT0yPjwv Rk9OVD4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxCTE9DS1FVT1RFIA0Kc3R5bGU9IlBBRERJTkctUklHSFQ6 IDBweDsgUEFERElORy1MRUZUOiA1cHg7IE1BUkdJTi1MRUZUOiA1cHg7IEJPUkRFUi1MRUZU OiAjMDAwMDAwIDJweCBzb2xpZDsgTUFSR0lOLVJJR0hUOiAwcHgiPg0KICA8RElWIHN0eWxl PSJGT05UOiAxMHB0IGFyaWFsIj5Db25jaG8sPC9ESVY+DQogIDxESVYgc3R5bGU9IkZPTlQ6 IDEwcHQgYXJpYWwiPiZuYnNwO0hlJ3Mgb2xkIGFuZCBmZXJnZXRmdWwsIGJ1dCBub3QgVEhB VCANCiAgZmVyZ2V0ZnVsLi4uIEknbGwgdGFrZSBhIHNob3QuLiZsdDtHJmd0OzwvRElWPg0K ICA8RElWIHN0eWxlPSJGT05UOiAxMHB0IGFyaWFsIj5EPEJSPjwvRElWPg0KICA8RElWIHN0 eWxlPSJGT05UOiAxMHB0IGFyaWFsIj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj48L0JMT0NLUVVPVEU+PC9CT0RZ PjwvSFRNTD4NCg== - --Interpart.Boundary.11.22.33.M2Y4659-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:12:43 -0600 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothbore rear sights <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><blockquote><blockquote><TT>---- Begin Original Message ---- Tom said, <. What I do recall (as I have an interest in rear sights) was a chisled notch across the barrel just forward of the breech with said notch having a fine groove filed at the center, thus creating a rear sight.> Frank G. Fusco - ---- End Original Message ---- Frank, Our friend Buck Conner has 4 original tradeguns, 2 have sights as just described, one is smooth, while the other is a late cartridge gun, but smooth. Buck was a good friend of Mr. Hanson's of the Museum of the Fur Trade and a student of the same for many years, their research shows that many of the government contracts did state "smooth barrels with front sight only", but according to Mr. Hanson when received - the sight method as described by you was added per customer option, usually by the local blacksmith or gunsmith. This may be the reason why most of the shooting events state "smooth barrels with front sight only", like the original government contact request ! Hope that helps. </TT> <TT>Later, Daniel L. "Concho" Smith _____________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__ http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__ [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign" _____________________________________________</TT> <TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></body></html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:16:39 EDT From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under DONT forget Grandel Granny Martin #9. Two Bear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:30:09 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under TwoBear, He doesn't show up in the record under number 9. What state did he live in? What was his full name? YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under >Date: Thu, Sep 6, 2001, 1:16 PM > >DONT forget Grandel Granny Martin #9. > Two Bear > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:55:27 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" <dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indian Trappers Howdy Friends, I have read the account of Pierre Menard at the Three Forks of the Missouri, with the Missouri Fur Company. He talks about George Droulliard of Lewis and Clark fame, hunting and trapping with Delaware Indians in his group and how they got rubbed out in 1810 by the Blackfeet. This is the second account I have read about that event. Question; Does any of you know of any accounts that talk about Delaware Indian trappers in the Rockies previous to 1810? I would appreciate any information on this topic that you can post. Really, any info on Delawares in the west would be interesting to me. Thanks, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:52:20 -0500 From: David K Bostrom <wetshirt@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Ole, Add Peter Trilling #???? Birnamwood, WI To the list. Sorry I don't know his number. Would it be possible for me to get a copy of the completed list, when done, if so ,thanks much! Your most obedient, and humble servant, Chemise Dampe (Wetshirt) #1645 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:22:04 -0500 From: Richard Bacon <rfbac@execpc.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt Thank you, to all that responded to my question about making my buskin shirt. I guess I should have given you a little bit more info about how far I am at this time. As most of you guessed, the hides I have were all tannery tanned. Over the years I shot my deer I would take it to a tannery and have it tanned. I=92m very interested in that brain tanning method and will try it this year, but it=92s too late for the ones I have now. I picked out 3 hides that are about the some color and soaked and stretched them already. At this point, it sounds as if the best way to go from here is to follow the advice buy Capt. Lahti=92. I=92m not sure w= hat my finished product will look like but I want to try to make as =93correct=94 as I can. I=92ve never sown a thing before so this is going= to be a big project. Regardless of how it turns out, I will have the satisfaction of being able to tell friends, it was made by me, it was killed my me, with a black power gun I made myself, and the meat was good. I will probably have more questions as I go, but when I get done with the shirt; the pants will be next. Dick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:44:15 -0700 From: "John Funk" <j2hearts@shasta.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under How about "Curly"? - ----- Original Message ----- From: <TerryTwoBear@aol.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under > DONT forget Grandel Granny Martin #9. > Two Bear > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 21:46:40 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what exactly do "YOU" carry in your possibles bag? In a message dated 9/6/01 11:34:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: < I admit I don't have positive proof, but the French, English, Longhunters and even the Indians were known to use separate bags for possibles and shooting supplies, I find it hard to believe that these practices would be lost to our American fur hunters. I wish respectfully to disagree with your research and statements. This comment was made about Wynn's supposition that I interpreted as leaning towards the belief of one pouch for shooting and possibles. I would like to point out that even with our best examples that we just likely will never know. Did a guy have 2 or three pouches? Did a guy have a great pouch with two or three sections devoted to different articles? Did a trapper cram it all in one pouch and dig for it when he needed it. If I had to bet my last pound of powder (which was not so great anyway <BG>) I say the answer was yes to all these. Remeber these were real people...not actors off a popular SCI_FI show that all dress and outfit the same!!!! Probably, some did it one way more that others. I do not carry my rifle by the barrel. Did some others? yes! Who is correct? I wear my clout 18 inches in front when I wear one. Another all the way to his calves. Who is right? SO, on the pouches... maybe the issue is not so much how many as it is what material/style/decoration, etc. Just a thought. - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:06:58 -0700 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt Richard, Good luck to you of course. And don't hesitate to ask any of us questions as you go along and before you cut. <G> Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Bacon <rfbac@execpc.com> To: hist_text-digest <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt Thank you, to all that responded to my question about making my buskin shirt. I guess I should have given you a little bit more info about how far I am at this time. As most of you guessed, the hides I have were all tannery tanned. Over the years I shot my deer I would take it to a tannery and have it tanned. I'm very interested in that brain tanning method and will try it this year, but it's too late for the ones I have now. I picked out 3 hides that are about the some color and soaked and stretched them already. At this point, it sounds as if the best way to go from here is to follow the advice buy Capt. Lahti'. I'm not sure what my finished product will look like but I want to try to make as "correct" as I can. I've never sown a thing before so this is going to be a big project. Regardless of how it turns out, I will have the satisfaction of being able to tell friends, it was made by me, it was killed my me, with a black power gun I made myself, and the meat was good. I will probably have more questions as I go, but when I get done with the shirt; the pants will be next. Dick - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:03:34 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt In a message dated 9/6/01 8:29:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rfbac@execpc.com= =20 writes: << I=E2=80=99ve never sown a thing before so this is going to be a big project. Regardless of how it turns out, >> I would STRONGLY encourage you to do a good amount of reading on the cutting= =20 and sewing of leather. Apparently, you have to make some different seam and= =20 length allowances for leather. Also, if you have never sewn before let me=20 offer a couple of helpful hints. If you get a pattern (and you will) use th= e=20 paper pattern and transfer it to poster board. The poster board pattern wil= l=20 lay flatter on your fabric/leather and give more reliable tracings. Also,=20 take the time to sew up an old sheet to see what the pattern is like and if=20 it will look ok on you. Get some scrap leather and practice doing the=20 various stitches used in leather sewing!!! Best of luck and let us see how=20 the shirt turns out. Also, if you are a large to extra large fellow...3=20 skins may not be enough unless they are just really large....again, Deerskin= s=20 into Buckskins has a lot of good info on leather sewing. - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 21:01:04 -0600 From: "Kim & Jen" <kimanjen@wyoming.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 Hau, Richard; In regard to Cap'n L's info, he's so right. However, if you must use the pumpkin orange skins, (assuming that is what you have) as he said use the slick side in. Yes, as stated by someone else you'll have a problem with sweat. There is one good thing about all of this. once the slick side gets wet, it begins to breathe and you are almost as cool as you would be with brain tan. I do have one problem with those that say that you have to either not buy commercial, or that you need to throw the commercial away and buy brain tan for several reasons. I have no grumble with anyone saying that brain tan is better, it is, but it is out of some people's ball park when it comes to price. If you are not AMM it is not a requisite that you have brain tan. Some of the best buckskinners I know are still running around in commercially tanned skins. (Some of them/us choose not to join AMM even though we could pass muster.) Also, there are literally hundreds of colors of commercial hide anymore that would pass muster for the correct color/colors which you can even go to the trouble of smoking if you feel that you need or want that. I am disabled and still doing the rendezvous circuit as a trader as much as my limitations will allow. Since most of my skins are of the shooter/thrower/participant, I sometimes don't fit for the correct trader clothing. Oh well, we do the best that we can. One more thing. I believe that buckskining should be a family thing if you can pull it off. That leaves the women portraying either missionary women or Indian women, if you are TRULY being period correct the kids are stuck with being Indians as, apparently, there were no white children out here in the fur trade country during the period. To outfit the whole group of people with brain tan is either very expensive or one hell of a lot of work for both you and the wife. My advise is to ease into things as easily and cheaply as possible. If one steps into his first rondy totally period correct on everything he owns is one hell of a burden to put on someone who wants to try something new and fun. By the way, Bodmer and Catlin might not have painted or drawn any of the mountaineers with long fringe but that doesn't mean that those of us who married Indian women didn't wear pants or leggin's with long fringe. Of course, that's just my opinion. Respectfully; Kim "CallsTheWind" Curtis CHECK OUT OUR HOMEPAGE: www.geocities.com/jenaka/index > Richard, > > I presume you have had those hides commercially tanned? And they are of a > golden color? > > Firstly, as has been offered by others, nothing beats brain tan for garment > leather appropriate to the 1800's Rocky Mt. Fur Trade era. But that is > probably news that's too late for you. There are a few things you should > keep in mind about the leather you do have. Since it is of the color that > tanneries normally use, it is not the right color to be historically > correct. Not that you can't use it but you did want to know. Secondly, with > the "scarf skin" (where the hair comes out) still on the hide, it will > stretch, be hot, be cold, be less than it could be. Getting it wet and > stretching it before you make clothing out of it will help but not that > much. > > Your best bet is to take the scarf skin off. It is a simple process. Get the > hide wet, stretch it out on a very flat smooth sheet of plywood and let it > dry. Use an oscillating/vibrating hand sander with a sheet rock sanding pad > installed, carefully rough up the scarf skin side. You can take it > completely off if your careful but it isn't necessary. Just rough it up > good. > > You can also experiment with Rit Dye Remover on some scrap to see if you can > take the color out. The hide should be a very faint tan somewhere between > white and grayish tan. You can even smoke it after you get the original > color out and make it more like brain tan. If you do not decide to do this, > at lest use the leather rough side out. It will look a lot better. > > Whether you go this far or not, the next question is clothing patterns. Most > clothing you see at Rendezvous today is not correct for the 1800's. > Particularly the leather clothing. You might make a pair of tight legged > drop front pants and perhaps a somewhat fitted coat from your hides but most > original sketches of that era show men wearing cloth shirts. A small amount > of very fine fringe down side seams is not out of the question but do not go > overboard on length and stay away from gaudy decorations in the Indian mode. > Just not appropriate for a white man in the fur business, contrary to what > your rendezvous friends might say or believe. Of course if you want to do > it, your free to do so. Just won't be right for the period. If you want > visuals, get ahold of some Miller Sketches. He was a contemporary artist > that drew and later painted the scenes from the original Rendesvous. His > sketches show better detail without later artistic license. > > In any case, it will be worth the effort to take that scarf skin off. The > leather will be soft and warm and will function almost as well as brain tan > which is like velvet when done right. > > "I got the impression > that just as its personal preference on how you cut and sew your shirt > it was personal preference on what side you wanted out too." > > It is personal preference in modern buckskinning. It was not personal > preference in the 1800's. Don't get the two mixed up. Most of what you saw > was modern ideas somewhat off the mark from what they really wore. I'm sure > you saw very few correct outfits. Though I could be wrong. In any case it's > your leather, do as you will. And best of luck. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:34:59 EDT From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under - --part1_32.1a8adbb7.28c99a63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the camp=20 Next years national will be on our new land hosted by the Baker party and it= =20 looks like it will be Memorial Day week. It might be appropriate to remember= =20 AMM Brothers that have gone under at that time. We are asking your help to=20 make a list:=20 Name, camp name, AMM number, age, and year of passing.=20 Bring in the wood and help the Baker Party=20 The following are from Ole Lee Robertson # 102 Jim Rowley # 721 Jim Giles # 228 Robert L. Takace # 677 James Mulvaney # 188 John L. Elliott # 469 Ronald Hancock # 583 Pat D. Tearney # 163 Mathew J. Malloy # 1015 Robert Stigler # 1620 Joe Lynde # 18 Gray beard Regionald Laubin # 9 Gray beard Dev Rhoades # 877 David L. Sample # 1294 George W. Johnston #5 Gray beard Charles E. Hanson # 174 The following are added by other brothers Walt McCurdy Slim Pickins=20 Leighton Baker =A0from the Florida Brigade Charley Knight =A0from the Florida Brigade Grandel Granny Martin #9 He doesn't show up in the record under number 9. > died about 1992 at the age of 95 or so, Laguna Party of the AMM > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0What state did he live in? > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0What was his full name Granny was Graybeard # 2, ?? right after George Johnston Peter Trilling #???? Birnamwood, WI=20 Bob "Reb" Neal of the Red River Renegades of Wichita Falls, Texas. =A0 He died in January 1996. =A0=20 Bob "Duff" Stigler #1621? (Can't remember right off) Doc Newell Party, Ohio =A0He was 53 yrs when he went to the valley where the beaver are so thick th= ey=20 say "Take me!" in 1997=20 Bob "Reb" Neal, graybeard #849 to the list. =A0 He died peacefully in his sleep in January 1996. How about "Curly"? If you can add information that will help complete any of the above list or=20 add to it please do so Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader - --part1_32.1a8adbb7.28c99a63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML>Hello the camp=20 Next years national will be on our new land hosted by the Baker party an= d it=20 looks like it will be Memorial Day week. It might be appropriate to reme= mber=20 AMM Brothers that have gone under at that time. We are asking your help=20= to=20 make a list:=20 Name, camp name, AMM number, age, and year of passing.=20 Bring in the wood and help the Baker Party=20 The following are from Ole Lee Robertson # 102 Jim Rowley # 721 Jim Giles # 228 Robert L. Takace # 677 James Mulvaney # 188 John L. Elliott # 469 Ronald Hancock # 583 Pat D. Tearney # 163 Mathew J. Malloy # 1015 Robert Stigler # 1620 Joe Lynde # 18 Gray beard Regionald Laubin # 9 Gray beard Dev Rhoades # 877 David L. Sample # 1294 George W. Johnston #5 Gray beard Charles E. Hanson # 174 The following are added by other brothers Walt McCurdy Slim Pickins=20 Leighton Baker =A0from the Florida Brigade Charley Knight =A0from the Florida Brigade Grandel Granny Martin #9 He doesn't show up in the record un= der number 9. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px so= lid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">died about 1992= at the age of 95 or so, Laguna Party of the AMM =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0What state did he live in? =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0What was his full name</FONT= ></BLOCKQUOTE> Granny was Graybeard # 2, ?? right after George Johnston Peter Trilling #???? Birnamwood, WI=20 Bob "Reb" Neal of the Red River Renegades of Wichita Falls, Texas. =A0 He died in January 1996. =A0=20 Bob "Duff" Stigler #1621? (Can't remember right off) Doc Newell Party, Ohio =A0He was 53 yrs when he went to the valley where the beaver= are so thick they=20 say "Take me!" in 1997 Bob "Reb" Neal, graybeard #849 to the list. =A0 He died peacefully in his sleep in January 1996. How about "Curly"? If you can add information that will help complete any of the above list= or=20 add to it please do so Thanks Mark "Roadkill" Loader </HTML> - --part1_32.1a8adbb7.28c99a63_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:50:47 -0700 From: "rtlahti" <rtlahti@msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 I believe that buckskining should be a family thing if you > can pull it off. That leaves the women portraying either missionary women > or Indian women, if you are TRULY being period correct the kids are stuck > with being Indians as, apparently, there were no white children out here in > the fur trade country during the period. Kim, Thanks for backing me up. <G> I have got to expound a bit on the general gist of your post though. As to the above comments, what we all seem to forget in our romancing of the RMFT era is that while there were a few missionary women/whites that made it to a rendezvous (actually just passing through) and there were certainly many truly native American Indian women of the tribes friendly to trappers such as the Snakes and Shoshone and Nez Perce, a large percentage of the populace at Rendezvous and involved in the Fur Trade in general were of mixed French and "old Northwest" Indian tribes such as Chipawa, Iroquois, etc. These people didn't necessarily dress as a white trapper might dress but they dressed much more European than native. The peoples that eventually identified themselves as Metis out of Central Canada were such mixed bloods and quit civilized compared to their Plains relatives. < To outfit the whole group of > people with brain tan is either very expensive or one hell of a lot of work > for both you and the wife. This implies that you must be dressed in Brain tan from head to toe to be authentically clothed. Nothing could be further from the truth. As has been pointed out the Book of Buckskinning series has an excellent article in it by AMM members Clay Landry and Allen Cronister, (sic) who have gone to great lengths in their research of proper dress during that period and location. Cloth of all the various types from silk to wool from linen to cotton were well represented. While it is true that a trapper might have leg wear and foot wear made from Indian dressed hides and a coat likewise, there were just as many or more garments made and traded for that were of some type of cloth. There is even some tantalizing evidence that someone was wearing common lace up boots and shoes typical of the styles on the frontiers. The clothing styles of cuts were much the same whether of leather or cloth but do not be deceived that one must be wearing all brain tan to be authentic and historically correct. My advise is to ease into things as easily and > cheaply as possible. If one steps into his first rondy totally period > correct on everything he owns is one hell of a burden to put on someone who > wants to try something new and fun. Again it must be pointed out that most open rendezvous really only expect that the new person blend in. Very little attention is paid to the degree of authenticity displayed by the neophyte. Only when one aspires to participate in another higher level of Buckskinning such as AMM or ALRA will authenticity be very important prior to participation. To that end we who have been around a few years try to encourage folks getting started to think long and hard about the corners they cut in the beginning. Some of those corners can end up being very expensive. If you have the alternative it is cheaper to go with proper cloth clothing first, acquire brain tan as you can and change certain items of clothing over a period of time. Of course the challenge of making your own brain tan is very rewarding and really not that hard to do. It is labor intensive but as a skill it is worth having if one has the desire to really know what it was like to be a RMFtrapper or long hunter, etc. Apartment living is not a valid excuse since a hide can be brained and finish in a weekend in camp. > By the way, Bodmer and Catlin might not have painted or drawn any of the > mountaineers with long fringe but that doesn't mean that those of us who > married Indian women didn't wear pants or leggin's with long fringe. Of > course, that's just my opinion. I have observed a few "buckskinners" over the years that were so festooned with fringe and ermine tails, bead work and gewgaws as to not be able to move 25 feet into cover before his pursuers would have his hair if he were really back in an earlier time. Such long fringe and decoration is not practical for a practical portrayal of almost any era of woods man that I can think of. Highly decorated clothing on even Indians was a showoff dress for special occasions not for every day wear. You can deck yourself out that way if you want but those in the know will know you for a camp fire skinner rather than a true woodsman. Your choice. Again, it will be worth your while to work those commercial hides as I suggested before you make them into garments of whatever style you have in mind. Fail to do so and I suspect you will not wear them as much as you'd like just for their lack of comfort and functionality. Good luck with your sewing Richard. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 01:05:30 EDT From: Bublitz@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips - --part1_f6.f11ce31.28c9af9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry about the blank post prior to this one...... Dick's new shirt project brought up a question...... What is everyone's favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone have any neat tricks, etc..... ? ? I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4 holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc...... This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now you have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn how you guys like to do it? hardtack - --part1_f6.f11ce31.28c9af9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>sorry about the blank post prior to this one...... Dick's new shirt project brought up a question...... What is everyone's favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone have any neat tricks, etc..... ? ? I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4 holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc...... This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now you have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn how you guys like to do it? hardtack</HTML> - --part1_f6.f11ce31.28c9af9a_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:43:00 -0600 From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #853 "Some of the best buckskinners I know are still running around in commercially tanned skins. (Some of them/us choose not to join AMM even though we could pass muster.) Also, there are literally hundreds of colors of commercial hide anymore that would pass muster for the correct color/colors which you can even go to the trouble of smoking if you feel that you need or want that." Kim, I was sitting here ruminating on Capt Lahti's well thought out response, and have the following thoughts to add. Folks who attend rendezvous and dress up in historical clothing all have some purpose in mind. They are there to have fun, hang out with friends, try to educate others etc. There are many reasons. If one attends to simply socialize and have fun, it puzzles me why they even try to dress in historical clothing. If they have any intention whatsoever of educating the public, then they owe it to the public to do so accurately. As a friend so aptly defines it, "Can be seen from space day glow chrome tan" leather never existed during the fur trade. I understand the economic temptation of using it. If one does, I think they should at least do all they can to alter and disguise it. It is my personal opinion that people shouldn't attend rendezvous portraying some fictional being. To me, a person wearing all chrome tanned clothing and dripping with loomed or improperly patterned beadwork or festooned with feathers, bones and beads and capped off with any number of fur hats is as equally fictional and out of place at a historic reenactment as the average tourist walking by. In your statement that "Some of the best buckskinners I know are still running around in commercially tanned skins" implies they have yet to arrive at some unspecified destination and are rather "still running around." I wonder if they will ever decide to stop running around and chose to arrive? What is it that qualifies these folks as "Some of the best buckskinners I know"? The key may be that word "Buckskinner." I think that is the title given to the fictional being identified above. I am puzzled by where "Buckskinners" come up with the ideas they have sometimes. Many have apparently never cracked a book to see what were the proper materials and style of the time period they purport to represent. Often it is their own imaginations and ingenuity that guides them. Or perhaps the impressions left by some equally misguided buckskinner. It is not my intention to in any way imply that folks who wear such clothing as mentioned above should not be allowed to attend rendezvous. I welcome them as possible recruits to a more accurate portrayal of the time period. I've rambled longer than I intended, yet I'm not sure I've made my point. I guess a final thought might be summed up in the cliche "Anything worth doing, is worth doing right." "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #854 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.