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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #836 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, July 29 2001 Volume 01 : Number 836 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page -áááááá Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page -áááááá MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil -áááááá MtMan-List: Goose Baywork Shops catalog on line. -áááááá MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá MtMan-List: Conner Prarie -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 10:44:13 -0600 From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language >Hi! > From the description, my guess would be the sign for "fire." As in=20 >campfire. > Tom Orr Tom is an astute man. It is a fire of sorts that is represented but fire is not the answer. Wynn > =E2=80=9CHold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the=20= neck, > hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the > nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate > hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb > with a snap. . . .=E2=80=9D >=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:44:56 -0600 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Walt,<BR> <BR> Buck is in MN training new telephone engineers<BR> and doesn't have access to the list right now.<BR> <BR> He said to tell you he been so busy with work he<BR> hasn't had time to get back into the comparsions<BR> for that site between the - iceman - native<BR> americans - mountainmen. <BR> <BR> He was looking at moving to UT or ID, but because<BR> of questions not answered by his company, he has<BR> turned them down and will be in CO for a few more<BR> years, at least that was the last I heard from<BR> his wife.<BR> <BR> Hope that helps.<BR> <BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__<BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<BR> <BR> [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign"<BR> _____________________________________________</TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:53:56 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com> Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dan, Let Buck know that the Ice Man Otzi was killed by an arrow. He was shot = high in the left shoulder. Cutting nerves, blood vessels and breaking = the shoulder blade. He lived long enough to gain his last resting spot. Cheers, Walt - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META=20 content=3D"commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web = based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, = advertising banners, e-mail, free software"=20 name=3Dkeywords> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Dan,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let Buck know that the Ice Man Otzi was = killed by=20 an arrow. He was shot high in the left shoulder. Cutting = nerves,=20 blood vessels and breaking the shoulder blade. He lived long = enough to=20 gain his last resting spot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers, Walt</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D+0></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:33:50 -0500 From: "Glenn Darilek" <glenn@leaklocationservices.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Also in the archives is a warning about the spontaneous combustion of cloth coated with linseed oil. Some of us remember the old fire safety warning of not storing oily rags. That was talking about linseed oil, because linseed oil was used a lot for thinning paint, clean up, etc. Under some conditions, linseed oil rags can spontaneously combust (catch fire by itself). Also, don't feel too lax about fires if your canvass, etc. has no oil coating. I tested canvass, canvass with Thompson's waterseal, and canvass coated with paraffin. They ALL burn like the blazes. Some inadvertent field testing of my plain canvass tent verified those findings! Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Any oil or wax treated cloth (unless treated with retardant and probably >then still) will burn hotter and more brightly than plain cloth. Differing >materials have differing flash points; they all have one, it's the nature >of oil & wax; the higher the flash point the hotter it burns; this may not >be good around powder horns. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:51:57 EDT From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil In a message dated 7/27/01 12:33:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@leaklocationservices.com writes: << I tested canvass, canvass with Thompson's waterseal, and canvass coated with paraffin. They ALL burn like the blazes. A common practice to water proof the Circus tents of 75 - 100 years ago was to dissolve paraffin in kerosene or gasoline and leave the tent up until the dissolving agent evaporated / dried. Still quite hazardous when the lighting of the day was primarily oil burning lamps! < Some inadvertent field testing of my plain canvass tent verified those findings! >> Can confirm the rapidity of the burning of a tent. How long did yours take? Mine took all of 10 minutes to reduce it to char cloth even with attempts to put it out. Supposedly had been treated with "fire retardant" -- yea, right! NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:31:10 -0600 From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Goose Baywork Shops catalog on line. <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>Hey the camp,<BR> <BR> Talked to our old friend and supplier Peter <BR> Goebel, the move to the new home was very hard on <BR> him and family taking longer than originally <BR> planned, but he is now settled.<BR> <BR> He said with the rising costs of printing they <BR> decided to put their catalog on line showing <BR> Debra's fine art work and text details of each <BR> item.<BR> <BR> Of course they will make about anything anyone <BR> needs on a custom order as before, just not <BR> carried as usual inventory.<BR> <BR> They hope to have a retail store setup on the <BR> property by next year, around late spring - early <BR> summer, for those in the area.<BR> <BR> http://www.goosebayworkshops.com<BR> <BR> Just passing on a site that everyone will enjoy, <BR> thanks.<BR> <BR> </TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p align=left><TT>Later, <BR> Daniel L. "Concho" Smith<BR> _____________________________________________ <BR> HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__<BR> http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<BR> <BR> [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign"<BR> _____________________________________________</TT><br><TT>Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com </TT></blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:31:52 -0600 From: "Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of the hand >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. >Mark "Roadkill" Loader Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. two bear Languages are dynamic and whoever ôweö are should open their minds a little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party understand perfectly well that TomkinÆs watered down boy scout version would never touch. DonÆt get me wrong TomkinÆs book is great and I appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you really have an interest in sign perhaps you would ôcareö. One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about ôperiod correctö and material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you donÆt have to use Webster book English ifn you donÆt want to. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:47:04 -0400 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign books for comparison. Here's some dialog fodder: Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several essentials such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for "flint" while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on these terms? Tom Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > the hand > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > two bear > > Languages are dynamic and whoever ôweö are should open their minds a > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > understand perfectly well that TomkinÆs watered down boy scout version > would never touch. DonÆt get me wrong TomkinÆs book is great and I > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would ôcareö. > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about ôperiod correctö and > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you donÆt have to use > Webster book English ifn you donÆt want to. > > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:20:38 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Okay... So what do we do?? D - ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom roberts" <troberts@gdi.net> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 3:47 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language > Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the > simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the > depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For > example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've > tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark > is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign > books for comparison. > > Here's some dialog fodder: > > Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several > essentials > such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for > "flint" > while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on > these terms? > > Tom > > > > Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > > the hand > > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > > two bear > > > > Languages are dynamic and whoever "we" are should open their minds a > > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > > understand perfectly well that Tomkin's watered down boy scout version > > would never touch. Don't get me wrong Tomkin's book is great and I > > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would "care". > > > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about "period correct" and > > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don't have to use > > Webster book English ifn you don't want to. > > > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 14:33:29 -0600 From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller Hello all, The auction I am running for the book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" is closing tonight at 8:00. So far Randy Bublitz has the high bid of $100.00. That easily covers my cost for the book and the land fund will get another nice donation. Any last bids? "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 16:37:30 -0400 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Off the top of my head, I'm thinking we improvise. Lead: hot + liquid (or soft) + metal Bullet: hot + liquid + metal + small + round + shoot Mold: hot + liquid + metal + small + round + shoot + pour Gets rather complicated plus requires the creation of some signs. You're a worker of hot liquid (almost) metal, how do you sign that? Black + smith ? <G> I'm sure two reasonably proficient signers could get the point across to each other, but it might be a little different for each conversation. T Dennis Miles wrote: > > Okay... So what do we do?? > D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom roberts" <troberts@gdi.net> > To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 3:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language > > > Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the > > simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the > > depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For > > example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've > > tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark > > is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign > > books for comparison. > > > > Here's some dialog fodder: > > > > Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several > > essentials > > such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for > > "flint" > > while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on > > these terms? > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > > > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > > > the hand > > > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > > > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > > > > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > > > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > > > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > > > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > > > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > > > > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > > > two bear > > > > > > Languages are dynamic and whoever "we" are should open their minds a > > > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > > > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > > > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > > > understand perfectly well that Tomkin's watered down boy scout version > > > would never touch. Don't get me wrong Tomkin's book is great and I > > > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > > > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would "care". > > > > > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > > > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about "period correct" and > > > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > > > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > > > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > > > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don't have to use > > > Webster book English ifn you don't want to. > > > > > > Wynn Ormond > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 15:03:05 -0600 From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary skills. Most languages have varying numbers of dialects generally defined by geographic regions. So it is not surprising that Indian Sign talk also has some variables. It is important however to have a standard to begin with. I first purchased a copy of Tomkins book as a young Boy Scout in 1974. I thought it was a great book as I was infatuated with the American Indian culture. It wasn't until 24 years later that I got my hands on Clarks book. What a treasure! It has so much detail and is a great read for info on the culture alone. However, since most of us are mere amateurs at Indian Sign and struggle to gain minimal proficiency, I think it's important to begin with a recognized standard and go from there. I think that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in use for a long time. I enjoy learning a sign from Tomkins, then checking to see what Clarks book might add. But it's frustrating to learn a sign in one manner, and then see someone do it completely different. In such instances I ask "What sign is that? I thought it was done this way.." The reply often is "Well, that's what Tomkins says, but I find Clarks version much better," or some similar answer. To make it simple, I've always advocated using Tomkins book as the standard. Among my circle of friends we have discussed this issue and agreed to use tomkins as our basis. We've even had discussions on what the appropriate interpretation of Tomkins signs are and then try to use an agreed upon standard among our group. Enjoying the discussion.........I remain...... "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:39:22 EDT From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller I'll up it to $125. NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 18:41:51 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language In a message dated 7/28/01 2:03:03 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary skills. >> I too, am fascinated with Indian sign language, and have the 140 flash cards from "Books and Crannies". Used with Tomkins and Clark, and your web site, I think I can understand, and get more than a few ideas across. Unfortunately, there's not many people for me to practice with often. At Nationals, or any AMM gathering, someone mentioned at least one day should be a "no talk, sign only" day. Whoa.....that sure would get a few dusty books off the shelf! A few may have heard me, Crawdad, La Bisquee, Pappy, and some other boys from the Great North West, speak Chinook Jargon. It's a centuries old trade dialect that's been enlarged by the HBCo and used from the coast to the Rockies. It's not a difficult language to learn, period correct, and a great way to keep the FBI from reading your email....<G> I'm in the process of translating all of the two hundred signs in most general use to Chinook Jargon and will have that list available to those that are interested... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:59:50 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Todd wrote , I think that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in use for a long time. Todd, I use both, but much prefer Clark's book. I agree that Tompkin's is easier to use, but it doesn't give nearly enough information. It's easier for most folks to learn if they understand why a sign is made a certain way, and you don't get much of that from Tompkin's. I really wish Clark's book was the standard for that reason plus, I think many of the signs in Clark's are more descriptive and simply make more sense. If you really want to get confused, get yourself a copy of Tim McCoy's old tape. That old man was poetry in motion, but many of his signs are totally different. The thing that is interesting is, he actually lived it and used it as a cowboy working around the reservations at the turn of the 20th century. So which is right ? I dunno. I don't think there was a right and wrong way to make the signs back then. It was just communication, and whatever it took to make ones point was what was used. I think we get too hung up on the technical aspect of it. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 19:40:51 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Tom, I was very frustrated that I did not find a sign for lead or round ball. Then it occurred to me that Clark's book was written in the 1880's and Tompkin's was written latter than that. Bar lead and round balls were not commonly used that late. I think you will find that both have a sign for bullet or cartridge. The sign indicates roughly a 45/70 cartridge. I use the sign for gun and add a sign that I invented using the index finger and thumb to form a small circle to make the sign for round ball. I would think you could add a sign using both hands to indicate the size and shape of period bar lead, as it was traded to get the sign for bar lead. Improvise ! Adapt and Overcome ! I figure that is what they did ! Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 20:18:51 -0500 From: "Douglas Hepner" <dullhawk@texomaonline.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Conner Prarie This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got back last week from Conner Prarie just outside of Indianapolis, = Indianna. It is well worth the stop! It is an entire 1836 farming = community. Just thought I would let y'all know. Douglas Hepner - ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Got back last week from = Conner Prarie=20 just outside of Indianapolis, Indianna. It is well worth the stop! It is = an=20 entire 1836 farming community. Just thought I would let y'all = know.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Douglas=20 Hepner</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 21:43:18 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language You're a worker of hot liquid (almost) metal, how do you sign that? >>Work + Hot + Iron (metal) Or work + iron (metal) Or shake me damned hammer at 'em with a BIG grin on my puss..<G> D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 22:28:28 -0600 From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller Looks like Naugamok (that's you ain't it Vic?) has won the Alfred Jacob Miller book with a bid of $125.00! The land fund will benefit greatly from your bid. Contact me off list for details. I will be leaving for Scout camp on Monday, and won't be back until next Saturday. Thanks to all the bidders! "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 01:07:52 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Randy, Try Bed, Bath & Beyond or Strouds. They carry all kinds of Egyptian Cotton sheets. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 0:7:1 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" <rjbublitz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Ralph..... Long time , no see...... How's you and the family. Did your arm come back 100%? I hope so. I'm suffering some tendon problems, but will get by. Steve McGehee dropped by this evening, and told me he found a website that carries egyptian cotton at 300+ threads per inch. Sounds like some tightly woven cloth. He says it's on his work 'puter, as his home 'puter is down with a virus. Once I get the site, I'll pass on the info. to everyone. He also brought me a frozen solid elk hide, which he got from a friend. In the morning it should be thawed enough to see what I have. I hope it's a good match for the partially processed elk hide that I already have in the freezer. If I'm lucky, the next time you see me I may be wearing a nice brain tanned coat? Wish me luck. Hope to see you soon. Randy - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sent: 7/28/01 6:07:52 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Randy, Try Bed, Bath Beyond or Strouds. They carry all kinds of Egyptian Cotton sheets. Barney - ---------------------- - --- Randal Bublitz - --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>Thanks Ralph..... Long time , no see......</DIV> <DIV> How's you and the family. Did your arm come back 100%? I hope so. I'm suffering some tendon problems, but will get by. Steve McGehee dropped by this evening, and told me he found a website that carries egyptian cotton at 300+ threads per inch. Sounds like some tightly woven cloth. He says it's on his work 'puter, as his home 'puter is down with a virus. Once I get the site, I'll pass on the info. to everyone. He also brought me a frozen solid elk hide, which he got from a friend. In the morning it should be thawed enough to see what I have. I hope it's a good match for the partially processed elk hide that I already have in the freezer. If I'm lucky, the next time you see me I may be wearing a nice brain tanned coat? Wish me luck. Hope to see you soon. Randy</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=LivingInThePast@aol.com href="mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com"></A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=LivingInThePast@aol.com href="mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 7/28/01 6:07:52 PM </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <P> <DIV>Randy, Try Bed, Bath & Beyond or Strouds. They carry all kinds of Egyptian </DIV> <DIV>Cotton sheets. Barney</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>----------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P></FONT> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--- Randal Bublitz</DIV> <DIV>--- <A href="mailto:rjbublitz@earthlink.net">rjbublitz@earthlink.net</A></DIV> <DIV>We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 08:44:51 -0700 From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language I agree with Teton Todd here. Two Bears was referring to the decision by the American Mountain Men to use Tompkins guide for qualification in Indian Sign. Clark's book is much more detailed and a great reference for signs not covered by Tompkins or clarification of Tompkins' illustrations or descriptions. It is essential when working together as a group to agree on the basics of communication in this area. Because Tompkins illustrated his signs rather than rely on text alone makes his work the "basic" volume to learn from. Try getting scouts or any young person to learn from Clark - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Glover" <tetontodd@juno.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language > I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it > takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary > skills. > Most languages have varying numbers of dialects generally defined by > geographic regions. So it is not surprising that Indian Sign talk also > has some variables. It is important however to have a standard to begin > with. > > I first purchased a copy of Tomkins book as a young Boy Scout in 1974. I > thought it was a great book as I was infatuated with the American Indian > culture. It wasn't until 24 years later that I got my hands on Clarks > book. What a treasure! It has so much detail and is a great read for info > on the culture alone. However, since most of us are mere amateurs at > Indian Sign and struggle to gain minimal proficiency, I think it's > important to begin with a recognized standard and go from there. I think > that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to > understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in > use for a long time. > > I enjoy learning a sign from Tomkins, then checking to see what Clarks > book might add. But it's frustrating to learn a sign in one manner, and > then see someone do it completely different. In such instances I ask > "What sign is that? I thought it was done this way.." The reply often is > "Well, that's what Tomkins says, but I find Clarks version much better," > or some similar answer. > > To make it simple, I've always advocated using Tomkins book as the > standard. Among my circle of friends we have discussed this issue and > agreed to use tomkins as our basis. We've even had discussions on what > the appropriate interpretation of Tomkins signs are and then try to use > an agreed upon standard among our group. > > Enjoying the discussion.........I remain...... > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #836 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.