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hist_text-digest         Monday, May 28 2001         Volume 01 : Number 807



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Ketland & Sons ?
-áááááá MtMan-List: Birding (was: camouflage)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Cane arrow shafts
-áááááá MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá MtMan-List: Shooting Stance
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: KETLAND & SONS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cane arrow shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting
-áááááá MtMan-List: bamboo shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance
-áááááá MtMan-List: A Mule
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: A Mule
-áááááá MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts
-áááááá MtMan-List: Memorial Day

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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 08:40:52 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ketland & Sons ?

One other thing, I'm not totally sure of the name of the firm.   It could be
Ketland & Co. or some other variation.

Pendleton


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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:58:09 -0600
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Birding (was: camouflage)

Angela wrote:

A few years back, when I was a fanatic birdwatcher (today I'm just keen
on
birding). . . .And before you guys decide that, since I'm a birder, I
must automatically
be some kind of vegan PETA-supporting type, the answer is no. I don't
hunt,
but I'll eat moose every chance I get!

Angela, you might have been very surprised at what you would  have heard
had you attended a recent presentation that some AMM put on for a school
in Idaho Falls.  These men and woman are very concerned with
environmental issues.  The idea that hunters and trappers are not
environmentally concerned is asinine  anti hunting stuff.  Groups like
Ducks Unlimited and the AMM spend a lot of money trying to save
habitat.  Yes, they use it for personal enjoyment but they wildlife are
not too concerned about motives.

I firmly believe that a more likely reaction among the list members I
have meet is disappointment that you do not live closer to the Snake
Country so we could learn from your expertise on birds.

Sincerely
Wynn Ormond



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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:13:31 -0400
From: "Two Crows" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Cane arrow shafts

The cane-like arrow shafts you see from Georgia are just that -- River
cane.
Pretty much like bamboo, but it's native and much smaller than asian
bamboo.  Local tribes used it for blowguns, darts, shafts, whatever.  Very
practical.

db

David Brown & Kristin Poulsen
Wollendael
4419 Gore-Subligna Rd.
Summerville, GA  30747

"If you're going through hell, keep going."
- --Winston Churchill




[e-mail]
http://www.2crows2.com



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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:25:25 -0600
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

Need some bamboo for atalata shafts, any ideas
joe
- --
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:53:01 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

Joe,

Not a good idea but a start. <G> Garden Centers sell bamboo plant stakes
that are about the right size but may be too short. Might be a place to
start looking though.

Capt. Lahti'

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Brandl" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 8:25 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts


> Need some bamboo for atalata shafts, any ideas
> joe
> --
> Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
307-455-2440
> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:57:29 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

Joe,

I have used bamboo for atlatl darts for a number of years and they are my
favorite material. I usually use those that are about as big as my finger
and around 5' long. I have used darts from 4'-6' as big around as my thumb
and as small as my little finger. Length seems to be personal preference and
where also you have to cut them to get the nodules in the right place. Never
used any as small as an arrow shaft though. I use a hard wood foreshaft that
fits up against a nodule and I cut it at the butt right against a nodule to
support the nock. For practice I sharpen one end of the foreshaft and it is
my point. I used hardwood oak dowels for some others I carved from various
hard woods. The bamboo darts are strong and light. These rocks here in
Montana sure do tear them up though. I have had my sister in Florida and
friends on the list in Georgia and South Carolina send me bamboo or cane.
Bigger pieces make good flutes and small sizes are arrow shafts. I plan to
make a blow gun, but just haven't gotten around to it. Saw guys with blow
guns at the Alafia Rondy a few years ago and they looked like great fun.
Good Luck.

Ghosting Wolf

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Brandl" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts


> Need some bamboo for atalata shafts, any ideas
> joe
> --



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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 15:10:10 -0600
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance

Ferris wrote in Chapter XLI (Installment 6) An account of one William
Peterson, of St. Louis:

We returned to our camp, and found every thing removed, from which we
concluded that the Indians had departed, and were encouraged to look for
the body of Piero, not doubting that he was killed. On our way down to
the "dams," (beaver) where we knew his traps had been placed, we passed
through a small prairie surrounded by willows; before leaving it, two
Indians intently gazing on the ground, were observed, evidently
following our tracks. I immediately placed one of my guns between my
knees, and shot the foremost of them with the other, dead on the spot.
My companion fled, and the surviving Indian slowly brought his gun to
his eye, as if to insure my fate; but in a twinkling, the empty gun
dropped from my hand, and the other was at my eye. The amazed red skin
sprang into a thicket and escaped.


How do you suppose he was holding his gun that he would use that
description, and is it a worthy method?

Wynn Ormond


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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:13:35 +1200
From: Duncan Macready <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: KETLAND & SONS

Pendelton wrote:
>Does anyone have any information about the gunbuilding firm of Ketland and
>Sons ?

Gardner lists: Ketland & Co ,London England 1715,: Ketland & Izon
Birmingham England 1805,;  Ketland & Walker Birmingham England
1765-1829,:  Ketland ,Walker & Adams Birmingham 1818, :Ketland, Walker & Co
Birmingham 1808- 1815; Ketland T, Birmingham 1750-1829 ; Thomas & John
Ketland  took temporary residence in Philadelphia Pen USA,in1797-1800 where
they contracted to make 10000 muskets for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,
but none are recorded as being delivered although a musket has been found
stamped Ketland & Cie, United States, : Thomas & William Ketland ,
Birmingham before and after 1803; Ketland Wm & Co Birmingham 1808-29 :
So You can see that the Ketlands were in business for a long time



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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:42:47 -0700
From: "ALAN AVERY" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

According to an article in a recent Muzzleloader Magazine, Mark Baker and
Frank House modified Mel Gibson's shooting bag, adding the loading block
(among other changes) at Mel's request to "make it look more like Mark's".

Alan Avery

"Black Knife"
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: May 25, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters


>
>In a message dated 5/25/1 1:31:15 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><<Even Mr. Neumann admits that everything in the collection has
>>  not been documented to the Rev War time period. A couple of things that
are
>>  in the collection, and the book, that are not documented to the Rev War
>time
>>  period are the short starter and the bullet blocks that he shows.
>
>Given the fact that there are several other items attached to the short
>starter, including some rawhide and an antler measure; and given the
>importance of documenting this item, couldn't someone with a little pull
>coerce them into doing some dating procedures on samples taken from the
>artifacts.>>
>
>The producers of The Patriot make an issue that the materials in their film
>were all documented through the Smithsonian.  I noticed a loading block
>swinging from Mel Gibson's  pouch strap.  Anyone have any know-how with
this
>group?
>RJames
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:26:23 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cane arrow shafts

Two Crows,

Zip over to K Mart and get some Martha Stewart bamboo stakes.  They sell
them in 6" lengths.

Good Luck,

Frank


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Two Crows <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 1:13 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Cane arrow shafts


> The cane-like arrow shafts you see from Georgia are just that -- River
> cane.
> Pretty much like bamboo, but it's native and much smaller than asian
> bamboo.  Local tribes used it for blowguns, darts, shafts, whatever.  Very
> practical.
>
> db
>
> David Brown & Kristin Poulsen
> Wollendael
> 4419 Gore-Subligna Rd.
> Summerville, GA  30747
>
> "If you're going through hell, keep going."
> --Winston Churchill
>
>
>
>
> [e-mail]
> http://www.2crows2.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:51:06 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance

> How do you suppose he was holding his gun that he would use that
> description, and is it a worthy method?  > Wynn Ormond

Hi Wynn,

Consider straddling one of them and squeezing your knees together.

Walt


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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:05:16 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance

I picture him kneeling.  Stable shooting position, natural cradle for the
second gun with some concealment in the prairie grass.  I guessing that the
shot was at about 50 yds. given that the Indians did not see them at first
And for as quick as he got the gun up, he wasn't able to get that second
shot off. Why?  Distance?  Cover?  Either the Indian dropped into the grass
or ran like hell.

Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance


> > How do you suppose he was holding his gun that he would use that
> > description, and is it a worthy method?  > Wynn Ormond
>
> Hi Wynn,
>
> Consider straddling one of them and squeezing your knees together.
>
> Walt
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:49:20 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

In a message dated 5/26/1 11:46:14 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Garden Centers sell bamboo plant stakes
that are about the right size but may be too short. Might be a place to
start looking though.>>

Mebbeso where you live and I know they do in the south, but here in the
Rockies no one carries anything but plastico and vinyl-covered metal.
RJames

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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:52:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

In a message dated 5/26/1 11:57:28 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I have had my sister in Florida and

friends on the list in Georgia and South Carolina send me bamboo or cane>>

Got any extra sisters in Florida you would like to trade for a sack of
obsidian?
RJames

P.S.  Lets spell it correctly: atlatl.

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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:55:16 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting

In a message dated 5/24/01 10:04:36 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< What is silent pond shafting?

Walt >>

Oops.....sorry Walt. Silent Pond is the name of the company that makes ash
arrow shafting. I guess that post only made sense to me.....<G>

Magpie

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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 00:30:45 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting

 Silent Pond is the name of the company that makes ash
> arrow shafting. > > Magpie

Hi Magpie, do they have a phone number or web address?
Walt


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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:15:41 -0600
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts

Does anyone know where I can order some shafts? I have checked
primitive archer magazine and am hoping for some sources. I'm sure as
Richard says, there are no bamboo garden shafts in Wyoming.
thanks in advance
joe
- --
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:34:51 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts

Joe,

I have a few dozen Georgia cane shafts for making arrows if you are
interested.

email me at [e-mail].

Frank V. Rago


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 7:15 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts


> Does anyone know where I can order some shafts? I have checked
> primitive archer magazine and am hoping for some sources. I'm sure as
> Richard says, there are no bamboo garden shafts in Wyoming.
> thanks in advance
> joe
> --
> Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
> Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture
307-455-2440
> New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:48:21 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Atalata shafts

> Need some bamboo for atalata shafts, any ideas
> joe
> --
Go to your local Kmart and buy the Martha Stewart brand of bamboo
plant stakes. Martha Stewarts seem to be the most consistent and hightest
quality, and are available in 4, 5 and 7 foot lenghts. The 3 foot lenghts
make
REAL good primitive arras too.

Hmmmm, Come to think of it, Martha's lump charcoal ain't bad for forging
aara heads either.

Wonder what old Martha would think if she knew us old hunters were using
her products to make arras and darts? heh, heh, heh,
J.D.




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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 21:53:06 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shooting Stance

:
I immediately placed one of my guns between my
> knees, and shot the foremost of them with the other, dead on the spot.
> My companion fled, and the surviving Indian slowly brought his gun to
> his eye, as if to insure my fate; but in a twinkling, the empty gun
> dropped from my hand, and the other was at my eye. The amazed red skin
> sprang into a thicket and escaped.
>
>
> How do you suppose he was holding his gun that he would use that
> description, and is it a worthy method?
>
Sounds to me he was standing and placed his second gun between his knees
to hold it closer to hand for a quick second shot.


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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:47:40 -0600
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: A Mule

This may not be of any interest to some but I believe that it is of
value to consider in the context of the horse and mule usage in the
Rocky Mountains.

Today was my mules first day under saddle.  It was not the first day I
started her, that began the day she hit the ground. At that time I
petted near every inch of her several times over and until she was not
bothered by it.   By the end of that month I could catch her, pet her
all over, play with her ears, pick up her feet , and move her by hand or
with a rope.  That list remained my goal for the next two years.  Today
she stood almost happily while I rubbed her with a blanket then slid on
the saddle.  She took to bucking a little when I asked for a trot, other
than that everything went smoothly.  Eventually the time came (the wife
stood with video camera encouraging the mule to give her a good show)
and there was nothing left to do but slip up on top the saddle.  Man
that neck looked short after all those big horses I have been sitting
on!

Other than a little nervous trotting it all went amazingly smoothly.  I
wonder what it would have been like on an open prairie with a 9 pound
rifle, a days work, and bunch of companeros looking on.  This mule is
close to the size most estimate for the RMFT but her background was
certainly different.  My hat goes off to the wranglers, packers and
horsemen of a bygone day.  I study and follow their tracks but I will
never fill them.

Wynn Ormond



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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:16:37 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Mule

Hi Wynn,

What do you think your mule weighs?

Walt


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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:31:47 -0600
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith

Hello all,

 Today is the anniversary of Jedediah Smith's death 170 years ago. A hero
til the end, he was out desperately looking for water to save the
caravan. His uncommon skill and luck that had brought him through so many
tight spots before had finally ran out.
To me he will always be the greatest Mountaineer!

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 23:46:00 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bamboo shafts

I think it was Frank who suggested trying the nursery department of K-mart.
I see many of such green bamboo nursery stakes around these parts and believe
they would be good for arrow shafts.
On another note,  there is a great place a few miles from my house that
specializes in Bamboo. Here is their link: <A
HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~bamboosource/index.htm">Bamboo Sourcery</A>.
 I have no affiliation with them whatsoever.  I keep threatening wifie that
I'm going to plant some of their fine Tonkin or other species of giant
bamboo.... Bamboo is an incredible plant....   They have some species growing
over there that must be 50 - 70 feet tall and with diameters of somewhere
between 4-6 inches.   I understand it makes good bow material as well....
Ck out their site, its really pretty cool.......   They are well-versed in
many types of bamboo.  Perhaps they know what species have historically made
the best arrow shafts.....   Good luck...Tom

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Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:45:25 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Memorial Day

To all my fellow veterans, I want to thank you for your service.
Have a good day and remember our comrades.

Ghosting Wolf AKA Gene Hickman
Colonel, USAF Ret.
1970-1997


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