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hist_text-digest        Saturday, May 26 2001        Volume 01 : Number 806



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List:black walnut fishing--
-áááááá MtMan-List: loading blocks
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camouflage (was: why walnut dye?)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #805
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: loading blocks
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fire Drill
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #805
-áááááá MtMan-List: Site Update
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting
-áááááá MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá MtMan-List: Greetings from the wilds of NE Iowa
-áááááá MtMan-List: Apology
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Greetings from the wilds of NE Iowa
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá MtMan-List: Greetings from Iowa , approximatly
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters
-áááááá MtMan-List: KETLAND & SONS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:26:05 -0500
From: "Shadow" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List:black walnut fishing--

Hi all, know the walnut/fishing thing is kind of off topic, but I was
wondering if anyone knew what chemical was responsible for the effect? I am
in norhtern Indiana, and have heard of this being done, albeit many years
ago by my father(57) and his father. I have also heard of ammonium nitrate
type fertilizers causing kills of fish, by robbing the water of vital
oxygen? Maybe this is the same principle. Also, does anyone know of a source
of good knappable obsidian?? Thanks all, great list, Shadowwalker


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 06:23:11 -0700
From: Kierst Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: loading blocks

Loading blocks are one of the most helpfull tools that I can think of in
muzzleloading. Its practicly cut my loading time in half. But I cant find
anything about weather or not its authentic.
Joe Dirty Shirt Kierst



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:35:51 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camouflage (was: why walnut dye?)

Tim,

What is your time period and place?
I would search the archives in the Fur Trade Business records
(http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/bizrecs.html) and the Fur Trade
Library of Journals (http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mmarch.html). Here
are some bibliographic resources:
(http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/research.html)
Early American newspapers can also be valuable resources:
(http://www.newsbank.com/readex/scholarly/eapap1.html).
Here are some HBC links: (http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/index.html)
and HBC Private Records:
(http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/resource/priv-rec/e1.html).

Assuming that your persona is in the Rocky Mountain fur trade, I would look
at the Sketch book series: The 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by
Rex Norman and The Mountain Man's Sketch Book Volumes 1 & 2 by Hanson &
Wilson. The Rocky Mountain fur trade can be broad too depending on the time
period, your persona, nationality, occupation, where you came from and what
part of the Rockies you are operating in. You could be Metis, you could be
HBC, could be a hunter out of a fort like Fort Union, could be part of a
brigade, you could be an early (1810?) trader/trapper, you could have come
from Taos, St. Louis or Canada, etc. Are you trapper, trader, clerk, camp
keeper, hunter, engage', boatman, etc.? Are you French, Spanish, Dutch,
English, part Indian (What tribe and what area),etc.?  All of these will
have some influence on your clothing and equipment. Another source are the
Books of Buckskinning.

There are any number of good books and articles, depending on your persona
and time. Many of them have been written by the good folks on this list. I
think once you get the particulars "nailed" down on who you are it will come
together a little easier. Of course sometimes you need to look at all this
stuff to make that decision.

Good Luck,
Ghosting Wolf

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:25 PM

<<I'm putting together a journal of the documentation associated with my
> "persona".  Unfortunately it still has a lot of the what-ifs and I-thinks
> that you refer to..... My problem is, being new to this, the few books I
have been able to collect so far do not show any reference to any mountain
man wearing walnut dyed clothing.  I have found many references to
"brighter" colors and even one reference to brown,  maybe that brown was
walnut dyed....I've also searched the Internet and haven't been able to find
the
> information I need.  Would you kindly point me in the direction of where
you
> found this information so that I can add it to my journal?>>



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:32:42 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #805

Maybe I'm not awake yet, but this posting has me puzzled.

Richard James ([e-mail]) wrote:
>Angela - going back to the initial letter on this subject, the person was
>wondering about using walnut dye as period correct.   And it is.

All _I've_ seen is some folks claiming, without evidence, that walnut dye
is period correct. I saw your note about the Confederate army's butternut
color, but that was a long time after the RMFT.

If we're going to pick nits, let's pick the right ones, okay?

>Uniforms of green were
>used by Roger's Rangers during the French and Indian war - uniformity and
>intended blending with nature, so its not a new idea.

That's interesting. But it doesn't have much direct bearing on the reasons
Mountain Men might have worn brown clothing, if, indeed, they did. This
whole thread has been full of "possiblities and vaguerys, what-ifs, and
I-thinks", and I guess I should be flattered that you seem to be holding me
to a higher standard.

>  Nothing period has
>been excluded by any of the messages and the Red, White, and Blue for
>voyagers from Quebec, Montreal, and Tois Rivieres (sp? - Threee Rivers)

Thanks for bringing that up. I think that's either a post-1821 thing, or
total bunk. I certainly haven't seen anything about it in my reading &
research, and it's definitely not in Nute.

>along
>with plaids, cheques --  and paisley imports from India, cannot be ignored by
>any researcher.  From that came the ma nypossiblities and vaguerys, what-ifs,
>and I-thinks, that have bounced off the screen for this past week.
>Sincerly
>Richard James



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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:48:19 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loading blocks

Joe,

The reason you can't find much to document them is because there isn't much
to document them and what information is out there is suspect. We've had
this discussion before so you may find more in the archives of this list by
doing word searches for "loading blocks".

With all that, I use them anyway. You might also try a "Jager Patched" ball.
Just tie the patch material around the ball like it's in a sack and secure
with a clove hitch, cutting off the excess patching. Dip in melted lube.
Works great in my Tulle' and I want to try it in my rifle as it is supposed
to work there too. Somehow the patch comes off on it's own. Push down the
barrel with knot facing out. This is supposed to have been done but probably
not all that common.

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kierst Family" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 6:23 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: loading blocks


> Loading blocks are one of the most helpfull tools that I can think of in
> muzzleloading. Its practicly cut my loading time in half. But I cant find
> anything about weather or not its authentic.
> Joe Dirty Shirt Kierst
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:05:54 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fire Drill

Maybe I've been doing this to long.  I got an email (I read this at
work) on fire drills, I thought using a bow and spindle, but it was just
about the fire drills for our building.  I was disappointed.

Jim

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:40:32 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

Does anyone know a source of sitka spruce arrow shafts?
Walt


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:08:00 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

> Does anyone know a source of sitka spruce arrow shafts?

Walt,
Don't know about spruce, but I have 3 dozen cedar shafts 31.5" long and one
dozen that are 28.5" long.  They are old stock, Herter's shafts from the
50's, 5/16ths in diameter.  Dollar apiece or a  good trade.  Also have about
a dozen asst. broadheads from the 50's and 60's that have never been used, a
couple of fish points, and assorted field and target tips..  Just in case
anyone's interested.  It must be about 20 years since I shot my bow last.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:47:55 -0700
From: "John Funk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

Dave,
There is a publication called "Primitive Boyer".  Don't know their web site
add. but some browsing might link you up with something.  They're are tons
of sources for bow and arrow material in the publication.  Bought some
spruce  and Port Orford (SP) Cedar from a couple of locations a few years
back.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce


> > Does anyone know a source of sitka spruce arrow shafts?
>
> Walt,
> Don't know about spruce, but I have 3 dozen cedar shafts 31.5" long and
one
> dozen that are 28.5" long.  They are old stock, Herter's shafts from the
> 50's, 5/16ths in diameter.  Dollar apiece or a  good trade.  Also have
about
> a dozen asst. broadheads from the 50's and 60's that have never been used,
a
> couple of fish points, and assorted field and target tips..  Just in case
> anyone's interested.  It must be about 20 years since I shot my bow last.
>
> Dave Kanger
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:51:01 -0700
From: "ALAN AVERY" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #805

Angela,

I read that post twice and was still not sure what was being said, so it's
not just you!

As far as the original question goes, (walnut dyed clothing in the RMFT) it
would seem pretty unlikely that the mountain men would have used walnut dye,
and nothing in a quick review of my (modest) primary sources says otherwise.
My conclusion would be that such usage is not documentable, but, as with
many other issues, it is not impossible that it occured. I guess in the end,
it comes down to how authentic you want to be. I count myself fortunate, as
a voyageur, that there is ample primary documentation of what clothing was
issued to the brigades.(thank heaven for the record keeping of the HBC/NWC)


Bigfoot

p.s. Are you and your good husband planning on going to Heffley Creek this
year? (Aug25 - Sep03 in case you're not on the mailing list).
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: May 24, 2001 6:40 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #805


>Maybe I'm not awake yet, but this posting has me puzzled.
>
>Richard James ([e-mail]) wrote:
>>Angela - going back to the initial letter on this subject, the person was
>>wondering about using walnut dye as period correct.   And it is.
>
>All _I've_ seen is some folks claiming, without evidence, that walnut dye
>is period correct. I saw your note about the Confederate army's butternut
>color, but that was a long time after the RMFT.
>
>If we're going to pick nits, let's pick the right ones, okay?
>
>>Uniforms of green were
>>used by Roger's Rangers during the French and Indian war - uniformity and
>>intended blending with nature, so its not a new idea.
>
>That's interesting. But it doesn't have much direct bearing on the reasons
>Mountain Men might have worn brown clothing, if, indeed, they did. This
>whole thread has been full of "possiblities and vaguerys, what-ifs, and
>I-thinks", and I guess I should be flattered that you seem to be holding me
>to a higher standard.
>
>>  Nothing period has
>>been excluded by any of the messages and the Red, White, and Blue for
>>voyagers from Quebec, Montreal, and Tois Rivieres (sp? - Threee Rivers)
>
>Thanks for bringing that up. I think that's either a post-1821 thing, or
>total bunk. I certainly haven't seen anything about it in my reading &
>research, and it's definitely not in Nute.
>
>>along
>>with plaids, cheques --  and paisley imports from India, cannot be ignored
by
>>any researcher.  From that came the ma nypossiblities and vaguerys,
what-ifs,
>>and I-thinks, that have bounced off the screen for this past week.
>>Sincerly
>>Richard James
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:59:29 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site Update

Sorry for the cross posting. Just did a small update on the site.. A new
Warhawk and some Folders...          http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

Thanks
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:41:44 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

Hallo Walt,

Check out Three Rivers, and Raptor Archery, they may have some sitka spruce=20
shafting. I've used it before, and it is good stuff... hard to break, but I=20
think it's a bit light for hunting. I like Douglas Fir over Cedar, because=20
it's heavier, very straight grain, and it grows in my back yard. If you=20
really get serious, find some Silent Pond Ash shafting...

Ymos,
Magpie =20

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.3riversarchery.com/">Three Rivers Archery Supply</A>

 <A HREF=3D"http://www.raptorarchery.com/">Raptor Archery, Home of Tradition=
al=20
& Primitive=E2=80=A6</A>

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:02:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

Speaking of Arrow shafts, Do you guys have any
experience with Arrow Weed (PLUCHEA SERICEA).  It is
so called because it has thin straight woody stalks
and apparently the paiutes and other SW tribes used it
for arrow and AtlAtl darts.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:07:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

In a message dated 5/24/1 6:06:17 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Arrow Weed (PLUCHEA SERICEA).  It is
so called because it has thin straight woody stalks
and apparently the paiutes and other SW tribes used it
for arrow and AtlAtl darts.  >>

    Just spent time with Paiutes last week.  Will call some this evening and
spend part of next week with them.  These have never heard of them and they
are the archeaology sort.  Paiutes are spread from central Utah to Boulder
Dam, Nevada and north to somewhere above Boise, Idaho.  I'll keep asking.
World Atlatl Association will be gathering at the Fremont State Park near
Richfield, Utah on Father's day week-end to chuck darts.  That's a good place
to ask.  See you there?
Richard James

Richard James

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:23:09 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

I know this shafting material.  I spent a month in Ojai, Calif visiting with
several associations there including one that had some Chumash culture
gathered around there reservation..  They showed me what arrow weed was.  I
cut some and brought it home.  Made up arrows.  It works but not the sort of
good stuff that must have been around in the old days.  When weeds were left
along.  I have been told the Chumash are considered to be the western most
of the Shoshone culture who extended from the mountains to the sea coast in
that area.  Also the Paiute or river bottom people are also of the Shoshone.
Chokecherry, dog wood or river willow works real well for arrows and darts.
Look underneath the cottonwood trees for the straighter taller stuff.
Walt
>
> In a message dated 5/24/1 6:06:17 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<Arrow Weed (PLUCHEA SERICEA).  It is
> so called because it has thin straight woody stalks
> and apparently the paiutes and other SW tribes used it
> for arrow and AtlAtl darts.  >>
>
>     Just spent time with Paiutes last week.  Will call some this evening
and
> spend part of next week with them.  These have never heard of them and
they
> are the archeaology sort.  Paiutes are spread from central Utah to Boulder
> Dam, Nevada and north to somewhere above Boise, Idaho.  I'll keep asking.
> World Atlatl Association will be gathering at the Fremont State Park near
> Richfield, Utah on Father's day week-end to chuck darts.  That's a good
place
> to ask.  See you there?
> Richard James



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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:12:39 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

In a message dated 5/24/1 9:23:56 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Chumash culture

gathered around there reservation..  They showed me what arrow weed was.  I

cut some and brought it home.  Made up arrows.  It works but not the sort of

good stuff that must have been around in the old days.  When weeds were left

along.  I have been told the Chumash are considered to be the western most

of the Shoshone culture who extended from the mountains to the sea coast in

that area.  Also the Paiute or river bottom people are also of the Shoshone.

Chokecherry, dog wood or river willow works real well for arrows and darts.

Look underneath the cottonwood trees for the straighter taller stuff.>>

Walt;
This is some very interesting information.  I have seen arrows out of
California, Texas, Georgia and other such states made of a sort of cane with
the point mounted on the insert.  Is the arrow weed of which you spoke a cane
of this sort?  I have only heard of the Cumash but didn't know they were part
of the Shoshonean group.  I know the greater family includes Paiute, Gosiute,
Bannock, Ute, Comanche, and Aztec.  I have a lot of dealings with Shoshone -
close and frequent.  They have never mentioned the Cumash.  Now I must learn
more about the Cumash group.
I have the woods you mentioned growing on my property or on the river a
bb-shot north of here.  Except for the willow, I find them needing a lot of
straightening.  There is a fragile cane here called phragmite (frag-mite-ee)
that was used for footed atlatl darts in archaeic times, but it is kinda
fragile.
Thanx
Richard James

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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:00:19 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

 The arrow weed I was shown and cut was not a cane.  It had a ribbed
outside.  I think that is what makes it grow as straight as it does.
Not much left of this culture in terms of a lot of people.  Very small
population.  History indicates they traded over the mountain into the river
bottoms you mentioned.  Artifacts show a very divirsified culture.  More so
further back than the time of the mountain men.

River willow is only one of the kinds of willow found here.  It is the stuff
sweats are constructed of today.  Most of the good patches are gone.  But if
you find the stuff about arrow or dart size as it is growing it is
relatively straight.  The big stuff grows 10' to 12'.  I think it is the
same type of willow shown in some of the old illustraitions of mountain men
camps.  The half rounds.

 There is a fragile cane here called phragmite (frag-mite-ee)   I have found
it here also.  Made arrows from it.  Very light and as you say fragile. One
shot stuff.

Walt


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Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:04:15 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: silent pond shafting

All right Magpie.  I'll bite.  What is silent pond shafting?
Walt


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 07:43:26 -0600
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

Don't want to start another long discussion and arguement, but here's some
evidence of a short starter from the Revolutionary War. It is in the
National Park Service museum collection from Valley Forge. See the site
listed:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/csd/exhibits/revwar/vafo/vaforifle.html

YMOS
Ghosting Wolf


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:41:07 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

In a message dated 5/24/1 11:01:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<River willow is only one of the kinds of willow found here.  It is the stuff

sweats are constructed of today.  Most of the good patches are gone.  But if

you find the stuff about arrow or dart size as it is growing it is

relatively straight.  The big stuff grows 10' to 12'.  I think it is the

same type of willow shown in some of the old illustraitions of mountain men

camps.  The half rounds.>>

There is some of that good willow in the Weber river on a couple of small
islands (when the run-off goes down they are islands) about a half mile from
here.  I think the reason they are the good straight ones because they are
relatively uncrowded.   I am really intrigued by the arrow weed you
mentioned.  I guess it wouldn't grow here in the Rockies.
RJames

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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:42:08 -0500
From: Richard J Holliday <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Greetings from the wilds of NE Iowa

Hello Richard,

I thought I=92d better let you know that I am still =93alive and kicking=94=
 here=20
in Iowa.  It has been a really busy spring what with work, meetings, 2=20
branches and lots of honey-do work.  I thought I was caught up on most of=20
it but still have to be at a Holstein convention for a couple of day, we=20
have a stake temple trip coming up in Chicago (500 mile RT) and a special=20
stake conference on June 10th when they will make 5 stakes out of the=20
present Cedar Rapid, Davenport, Des Moines and Nauvoo Stakes.

The good news is that after all that is done we are leaving for our annual=
=20
summer trip west on the 2nd of July.  We will be in Lander WY until the 9th=
=20
and then in Rexburg until the 17th or 18th of July when we have to leave=20
for home.  Some time during our Rexburg time I would like to drive down and=
=20
meet you and visit for awhile =85 but only if it is convenient for=20
you.   Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Doc

*********************************
Richard J. Holliday, DVM
Holistic Dairy Veterinarian
203 2nd St N E    Waukon, Iowa  52172
319 568 3624
Regular Correspondence Mailto:[e-mail]
All other mail, FWD's, jokes, etc Mailto:[e-mail]
WebPage  http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/holvet.html
******************************


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:44:33 -0500
From: Richard J Holliday <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Apology

My apologies to the list for using the wrong address for a personal post.


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:42:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sikta spruce

I won't be in Utah this weekend.  I actually am not
real involved with the primitive archery thing.  I'm
into ethnobotany though and was just wondering about
the properties of Arrow weed.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:55:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings from the wilds of NE Iowa

Hey, Richard
    I am so glad you wrote.  I lost a bunch of data off of my address book
(bad grammer) and didn't know how to get in touch with you.  Rexburg.   I've
been there.  A couple of weeks ago I went through there on the way to the
border.  I had a chance to go in on a "deal" and shoot a bison on a ranch up
there.  After the meat was cut up (wouldn't let me do it) it was pretty much
high-graded before I got my share.  But -- come on down and if you will eat
buff burgers, we will pig-out on that item.  I had a roomate from Rexburg
named Westerberg.  Any such name familiar to you?

    I was supposed to send you something.  I forgot.  Tell me what it was?
Book? Drawing?  Help me out.

    I have been working with some friends doing a documentary on the Fremont
Indians.  They asked me to help them with costuming and technicalities.  No
pay - just the association but they know I like to see things show up on tape
"right" rather than Hollywood.   I got some hides that are tanned in Germany
that are sueded on both sides and really look like brain-tanned.  I'm not
satisfied with the color so I am stitching them together so I can put them
over a smudge fire and smoke them for the costuming.  So - that is what I am
going to do right now.

    Schedule looks good for July.   Your trip comes between AMM Rendezvous,
my class 50 year re-union, and the Festival of the American West.  Lets keep
co-ordinated.

Your Friend
Dick James

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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:07:58 -0500
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

George,

You are referencing an item from George Neumann's Valley Forge Collection
that also appeared in his book "Collector's Encyclopedia of the American
Revolution". Even Mr. Neumann admits that everything in the collection has
not been documented to the Rev War time period. A couple of things that are
in the collection, and the book, that are not documented to the Rev War time
period are the short starter and the bullet blocks that he shows.

Unfortunately, you are just pointing out the same short starter that has
been discussed many times on several message boards.

YMH&OS,
R. E. Hedden


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>; "Muzzle Loader Mailing List"
<[e-mail]>
Cc: "Steve Cushing" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 8:43 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters


> Don't want to start another long discussion and arguement, but here's some
> evidence of a short starter from the Revolutionary War. It is in the
> National Park Service museum collection from Valley Forge. See the site
> listed:
>
> http://www.cr.nps.gov/csd/exhibits/revwar/vafo/vaforifle.html
>
> YMOS
> Ghosting Wolf
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:16:32 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Greetings from Iowa , approximatly

Sorry folks
A friend of mine sent mail on this site for all the world to see before
realizing which addresss he had used.  I didn't check either before I
answered him on the site.
Appologies for the clutter.
Richard James

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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:30:05 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

> Even Mr. Neumann admits that everything in the collection has
>  not been documented to the Rev War time period. A couple of things that are
>  in the collection, and the book, that are not documented to the Rev War
time
>  period are the short starter and the bullet blocks that he shows.

Given the fact that there are several other items attached to the short
starter, including some rawhide and an antler measure; and given the
importance of documenting this item, couldn't someone with a little pull
coerce them into doing some dating procedures on samples taken from the
artifacts.  I know that the US Forestry Service can date and place wood
samples geographically, and that items can be carbon dated with some degree
of certainty.

TOF

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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:49:49 -0500
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

TOF,

Carbon dating has a built in error factor of +/- 40 years. Considering this,
I don't think that carbon dating would be close enough to satisfy anyone
that cares about the dates of these items.

Besides, I think that using the primary source documentation process is more
than good enough for our purposes.

YMH&OS,
R.E. Hedden

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters


> > Even Mr. Neumann admits that everything in the collection has
> >  not been documented to the Rev War time period. A couple of things that
are
> >  in the collection, and the book, that are not documented to the Rev War
> time
> >  period are the short starter and the bullet blocks that he shows.
>
> Given the fact that there are several other items attached to the short
> starter, including some rawhide and an antler measure; and given the
> importance of documenting this item, couldn't someone with a little pull
> coerce them into doing some dating procedures on samples taken from the
> artifacts.  I know that the US Forestry Service can date and place wood
> samples geographically, and that items can be carbon dated with some
degree
> of certainty.
>
> TOF
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:36:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flogging the Expired Equine - Short Starters

In a message dated 5/25/1 1:31:15 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Even Mr. Neumann admits that everything in the collection has
>  not been documented to the Rev War time period. A couple of things that are
>  in the collection, and the book, that are not documented to the Rev War
time
>  period are the short starter and the bullet blocks that he shows.

Given the fact that there are several other items attached to the short
starter, including some rawhide and an antler measure; and given the
importance of documenting this item, couldn't someone with a little pull
coerce them into doing some dating procedures on samples taken from the
artifacts.>>

The producers of The Patriot make an issue that the materials in their film
were all documented through the Smithsonian.  I noticed a loading block
swinging from Mel Gibson's  pouch strap.  Anyone have any know-how with this
group?
RJames

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Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 08:29:18 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: KETLAND & SONS

Does anyone have any information about the gunbuilding firm of Ketland and
Sons ?  I understand they were a English Co. which produced N.W,Guns, rifle
locks, and barrels for export.  Any information anyone might have concerning
the products they produced, when the business was founded, and when it was
closed would be greatly appreciated.

Pendleton


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