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hist_text-digest      Thursday, February 22 2001      Volume 01 : Number 754



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: insults and bickering
-áááááá MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá MtMan-List: poor guns have poor ways
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous
-áááááá MtMan-List: WAS Flintlock popularity NOW - use of whiskey in the mtn.s
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá MtMan-List: ponchos
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá MtMan-List: was AMM Eastern rendezvous now NRLHF EPR 2001
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth
-áááááá MtMan-List: new e-club
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Tim Jewell's tarp
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- now Grizz loads
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: new e-club

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:26:55 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

Tim wrote :
I threw that out as a combination of a little "dig" at flintlockers (don't
jump on me...I'm in the middle of deciding on my first flintlock purchase)

Now Tim, you know I would never jump on anybody, being the mild mannered
person that I am.  <GGG>
My suggestion on the puchase of your flintlock, is buy the very best that
you can afford.  I good flintlock is poetry in motion.  A poor one can deal
you more missery than you can imagine.  Doesn't even make a good club.

Pendleton



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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:37:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

In a message dated 2/21/1 03:36:30 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<After he had signed on

with HBC, he states that he wishes he had a rifle gun.  (I'm paraphasing)

They were short on meat and he was having a miserable time hitting anything

with the trade guns they were issued by HBC.  >>

This is a bit scrambled but then his spelling and punctuation are a study in
themselves  I believe he was with Wyath when he had the hunting experience
you described.  It was later, after Wyath sold Fort Hall to HBC that he
struck up with them.

He does speak later of "percussioning" their guns.

RJames

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:57:09 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

R. James wrote :
I believe he was with Wyath when he had the hunting experience
you described.  It was later, after Wyath sold Fort Hall to HBC that he
struck up with them.

You're right, it was after Wyeth had sold Ft. Hall to HBC.  Not sure, but I
think it was shortly before he hooked up with Wyeth.  I remember it was
winter and they were on hard times.

Pendleton


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:10:21 -0600
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: insults and bickering

Thanks all.   I'll follow up off list at the addresses and phone =
numbers.    Silly thing is, I've lived less than 30 miles from the fort =
for over 20 years, and I had never been.   Darn shame honestly.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of =
[e-mail]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:32 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering
>=20
>=20
> Get ahold of me off list address below I all so deal with fort=20
> oasge are know=20
> people who can help you out.
>=20
> Traphand
> Rick Petzoldt
> [e-mail]
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:03:56 -0600
From: don shero <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

Howdy,

  53.5 grains may be more accurate, and capable of killing.

But do you think a  double {107 gr.}  load would be preferable in the

mountains for grizzly, elk, hostiles etc.?


  Don

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:17:38 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: poor guns have poor ways

Mild mannered Larry Pendleton wrote:
My suggestion on the puchase of your flintlock, is buy the very best that
you can afford.  I good flintlock is poetry in motion.  A poor one can deal
you more missery than you can imagine.  Doesn't even make a good club.

Tim
That is prime advice.  Heed it at all costs.
I once had a TC flinter and the cock and frizzen were so poorly engineered
and/or installed that the flint dang near MISSED the frizzen altogether.
The thing would fire about once in five or six shots.  I explained the
problem to a fellow, showed him, in fact, and he still bought it from me for
more than I paid for it.  Don't count on getting that lucky.  Like Larry
said, buy the very best your purse can stand.  It isn't necessary to spend
$1500 to get a good gun, but don't count on getting lucky with a cheap
gun....poor guns have poor ways.    It's a thicket out there, so do you
homework with a vengeance.
Lanney Ratcliff


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:23:59 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

Larry wrote:
> Now Tim, you know I would never jump on anybody, being the mild mannered
> person that I am.  <GGG>
> My suggestion on the puchase of your flintlock, is buy the very best that
> you can afford.

In my short time on this list I have gathered what a kind, gentle, soft
spoken, silver tongued lot you and most of the others are <ahem>.

I'm pretty sure I am going to have a rifle built.  I need a long pull and
probably a little more drop than average.  A kit won't give me that and
although I have made a couple of caplocks from kits I'm not quite
comfortable enough to start with a rough sawn blank.  As purty as they are I
don't want tons of brass and silver inlays and such.  I'm leaning toward a
nice trade rifle or possibly an early style Hawken.  I've also thought about
a 1803 Harpers Ferry style.  Any thoughts on which a 1835 mountainy man
might have.  Also, since I'm probably going to have to visit the builder any
suggestions on anybody in the Mid-Atlantic area.

          Tim
[e-mail]




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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:22:13 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

> But do you think a  double {107 gr.}  load would be preferable in the
>
> mountains for grizzly, elk, hostiles etc.?

Don,

Not if you can't hit anything with it.

Capt. Lahti'



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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:24:42 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

In my short time on this list I have gathered what a kind, gentle, soft
spoken, silver tongued lot you and most of the others are <ahem>

>>We are a bunch of 'sweet talkers' aren't we ?

.  I'm leaning toward a
nice trade rifle or possibly an early style Hawken.  I've also thought about
a 1803 Harpers Ferry style.  Any thoughts on which a 1835 mountainy man
might have.  Also, since I'm probably going to have to visit the builder any
suggestions on anybody in the Mid-Atlantic area.


>>Tim,
  The 3 stlyes of rifles you mentioned are great.  Any one of them would fit
your time frame well.  I'm not sure what type of trade rifle you are talking
about, but let me make a suggestion.  The tendency for many of us is to
gradually move backward in time with our personnas.  Since a custom built
rifle is a very sizeable investment, I would suggest a style that would fit
a wider time frame.  A Lancaster type rifle, which was taken and traded at
the rendezvous would also be at home at  a 18th century doins,where as a
Hawken would be totally out of place.  A Southern school rifle would also be
a good choice.  I don't have anything against Hawkens or Harper's Ferry
Rifles, matter of fact I have a serious cravin for a Harper's Ferry.  Just
makin a suggestion.

Pendleton


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:08:49 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

Tim, Handle and shoot a Harper's Ferry before you buy one for a primary
gun.  They are quite heavy.  I had one, and had fun with it, but sold it
as I wasn't pleased with it as a trail gun.  Just one man's opinion, but
get acquinted with one before you take the plunge.  This is probably good
advise with any gun.  I'll still be happy to win Pat's Harper's Ferry
(made by Paul Tidwell) in the raffle.  I enjoy my cut down Dixie Poor Boy
as my usual gun/shooter.  I cut 7 " off the barrel, as it was awfully
barrel heavy.  It still has a  33 3/4" barrel in .50 cal.     hardtack

Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
O'Donnel fat?

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:22:56 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

Don,
Most of my friends (me too) use about 95-110 grains for a
hunting load when hunting deer and elk. About 50 grains for
plinking. Some good advice is given for hunting grizzlies:
"The greatest danger when hunting grizzlies is to be caught with
a empty gun after having inflicted a wound not mortal. It requires
coolness and composure rarely examplied  to stand and calmly
face a enraged grizzly, even with a gun loaded. Never be alarmed
at the bear's rush, says a hunter of experience. Never fire in a hurry.
The bear will always stop, rise on his hind legs and prepare to strike
a sidelong blow with his fore feet. At this moment, when his head is
extended, and in a position in which the ball not glance, aim between
the eyes and fire, and the bear will fall dead."
    Hiram Chittenden page 812 volume 2 "American Fur Trade of Far
West"
    Well, so much for good advice. I have read that the early hawken guns
were regularly loaded with one grain to ball weight when hunting buffalo.
(you can figure it out-most of the were .53 or .54 caliber, but if you
don't
want to, it is around 230 grains). My Dixie cataloge says the proof load
should be around 125 grains, but I have seen and stood beside one unnamed
friend who double charged his hawken on the firing line.Everyone else,
stopped
and asked where the cannon was. And who shot it. The bowling pin (about 100

yards out disappeared.) I'm sure that most people on this site can tell you

similiar stories. I don't know if the records are correct on the large
amount of
powder used, or if it was just a flatlanders' story to impress them. But it
came
from a reputable source I found.
                                                mike.


Roger Lahti wrote:

> > But do you think a  double {107 gr.}  load would be preferable in the
> >
> > mountains for grizzly, elk, hostiles etc.?
>
> Don,
>
> Not if you can't hit anything with it.
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:34:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous

I know I have missed this in a big, blatant way somewhere on this list, but
allow me to ask when and where the Eastern Rendezvous will be.  Thanks for
your understanding.

- -C.KEnt

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:42:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Flintlock popularity NOW - use of whiskey in the mtn.s

In a message dated 2/21/01 6:32:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<  was amazed that they had any
 "liquor" at all at that point of their journey, much less enough to get
 drunk on.  >>

Remember guys, these folks were eating lean meat and were not likely to have
much in the way of "parlor lard" on their bones.  Drinking water and coffee
and working hard combined with their diet was sure to make them a little more
susceptible to the effects of the "aguardenty" ... especially if they went
for pretty long periods without drinking any form of alcohol.  If so,  maybe
some of the silliness and rambunctiousness most folks get past as they learn
to "hold their liquor" was present and a very real thorn in Wyeth's side at
that point.  Thus, they may have gotten quite drunk on a relatively little of
that alcohol stash saved for that special occassion.  Think of a time you may
have imbibed after a sabattical away from the spirits...likely you felt the
effects quicker than normal and not too far into your cups!!!!  Just a
thought from an ex-"frat boy" (and thanks be to the Good Lord for bringing me
past that hump in life's trail!!!!!)

- -C.Kent

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:23:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

In a message dated 2/21/1 05:55:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Not sure, but I

think it was shortly before he hooked up with Wyeth.  I remember it was

winter and they were on hard times.>>

Russell hired on with Wyath to come west when Wyath was expecting to ge the
sole supplier to the Rendezvous that year.  He got beat out of the deal so
went on to build Fort Hall.  Russell had his experience of shooting all 25
balls in his kit and not killing the buffalo on the way out.  Then he
encountered a bear who rose up, placed on paw on his head and one on his
shoulder and pushed him off the bank and into the water.  Meanwhile his
partner did get his Buffalo. Osborn stuck it out at fort Hall a couple of
years and then resigned to go trap.  About a year later Wyath sold out to
HBC.   Thats the way I remember it but I was quite young at the time.
Richard James

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:45:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

In a message dated 2/21/1 06:14:24 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<53.5 grains may be more accurate, and capable of killing.

But do you think a  double {107 gr.}  load would be preferable in the

mountains for grizzly, elk, hostiles etc.?>>

Using a .562 round ball and 80 grains I shot a mulie uphill at over 300 yards
(luck shot? you bet!) It went through two sets of ribs, lung and heart and
passed out the other side (heading for Robert Redford's place).  The ball
didn't flatten as  both entrance and exit holes were the same size.  No meat
was blood shot.  In the mountains??  I WAS in the mountains - the same ones
where they filmed Jerimiah Johnston.  No problem with elk or hostiles.  Griz
- - I don't know.  Never shot one.
I loaned my Zouave with a 505 grain minie ball to a friend who shot a cougar
and two black bear - one hit on each.   This was with 60 grains of DuPont.
He had a friend who had wounded a black on this same trip with a .270.  It
jammed and he emptied a .22 magnum revolver with hollow points into the beast
and later discovered the slugs were opening up and stopping just under the
hide without entering the body cavity.  A medic told me one time the power of
a .45 auto is not that it smashed on through a man but that on the way
through it pushes a wad of tissue and bone fragments ahead of it.  IF it will
stop in the man while pushing this wad - it expends its final energy in one
big kick.  This is what will knock a man down.  This ctg. was developed after
the Spanish American War when Morro warriors would charge out of the jungle
with a machette after they had had several round pass on through them without
stopping them.   Same with the Japanese - they could take a .50 round right
throught the gut and if it missed the spine - just keep on coming.  No - I
never shot a Japanese with a .50, but my trainer did and I am prone to
believe him. (You'd have had to have been there).
    Somewhere in all this dialogue there should be something about what kind
of charge would stop a what without using excess powder and bruising your
body.  You are the one to figure what you are going to kill and just how to
best utilize that ball to do the job.
    Happy hunting (maurading, or whatever . . .)

Most sincerely
Richard James

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 00:50:22 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

In a message dated 2/21/1 06:25:32 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Any thoughts on which a 1835 mountainy man

might have.  Also, since I'm probably going to have to visit the builder>>

If you are having it built - go for a swamped barrel.  They handle so much
nicer. You mentioned a Harper's Ferry.  Good.  They lean this way.  The
Hawken tht Jim Bridger owned - now property of the Montana Histerical Society
- - had a barrel that tapered about  3/8" from breech to muzzle.

RJames

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:49:24 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho

D.
believe we were into the poncho thing about a year or two ago and they
were even sprouting how to make a simbalance of the rubber gum
ones---some were using a painted mixture on the cloth ---believe you can
buy the rubber base paint in some paint stores ==

several things for you to consider---also check the archives---know its
there it also may be under shelters but remember it coming up about the
rubber thing---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 04:17:38 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

anyone know where i can find a picture of James P. Beckworth on the net
or web site

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:19:15 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

Well, said Mike
Have ya ever heard the expression of goin "Loaded for bear" where do you
think that came form.
 At close rang a lite load can do the job. But tryin reachin out there a
little ways It's goin start droppin off real fast when pushin a large ball.
You want that ball to bust bones and keep on a goin when hut large critters.
(Shock is what they call it) Hurt them, put them "down " specially them ya
don't want to or can't get, real close to.
I have been huntin big game with a front stuffer since 1972 . Threw the years
I have Learned, the hard way.  Load them light better chance of fallowin
blood and tracks that night. Load em hot better chance of makin meet there on
the spot. Is what I say.
 As far as accuracy goes that is a matter of working up the load that works
the best for each gun.
Yes, Don I think that would be about right load for large game. A single load
would be just about right for small game and man too. Depending on the gun
that is.
 For I all so, believe in "waste not want not."
There for the every day load that he carried could be a single charge. But
when hunting large game you can bet he went "loaded for bear."
Just my 100 Grains worth
   Crazy Cyot


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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 03:53:46 -0800 (PST)
From: [e-mail] (Steve Pepke)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

Hawk,
Here's one web page with a photo of Beckworth:
http://w3.uwyo.edu/~kcaj/jarticles.htm
Regards,
Steve Pepke


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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:26:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

In a message dated 2/22/2001 12:46:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Same with the Japanese - they could take a .50 round right
 throught the gut and if it missed the spine - just keep on coming.  No - I
 never shot a Japanese with a .50, but my trainer did and I am prone to
 believe him. (You'd have had to have been there).    >>

That's a big plus for ML rifles (within range).  Big advantage in the
projectile diameter which quickly increases on entering the "target". This
allows it to expend it's energy where it can do the job.  I recall in
Vietnam, we were walking down a paddy dike when a VC jumped out of the rice
and ran directly away from us.  The platoon turned as if on a firing line and
pumped unknown amounts of .223 ammo into the guy.  You could see tracers
hitting him and he was flinching but never stopped.  We followed a blood
trail into the tree line to a bunker where we found an empty morphine syrett
(US issue) and never found the guy.  He's probably mayor of Saigon now (I
sure hope so).  Good thing for him we didn't have a 50 cal round ball shooter
on that dike.

Greg Sefton

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:37:03 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: ponchos

    Thanks to all for the input on the "gum ponchos".  I just hope that now
we don't see a bunch of brightly colored ponchos being worn to r'vous with
wearer claiming they are 'authentic' because the material was made by
[Peruvian] indians.
Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:39:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

In a message dated 2/22/2001 4:45:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< anyone know where i can find a picture of James P. Beckworth on the net
 or web site
  >>

There's one on the cover of Elinor Wilson's book on him.  If you can't find
one, let me know & I'll scan it for you.

Greg Sefton

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:04:12 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: was AMM Eastern rendezvous now NRLHF EPR 2001

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:34 PM

C. Kent wrote:
> I know I have missed this in a big, blatant way somewhere on this list,
but
> allow me to ask when and where the Eastern Rendezvous will be.  Thanks for
> your understanding.


I think the Eastern Rendezvous this thread is talking about is The NRLHF
EPR.  It is not associated with the AMM that I know of, though there will
probably be some AMM members in attendance.  It is one of the biggest "drag
and drop" events in the U.S. and it is loads of fun  (usually a lot more
than 3000 people there).

To answer your question,  it is Sept 21-30 this year and will be held in
Doddridge Co. W.V.

They have a great new website at http://www.nrlhf.org/epr2001/.

I hope to finally meet a lot of you folks there.

           Tim
[e-mail]


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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:03:15 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

greg would appreciate the picture---its for a young lad doing a report on
him and he is working hard to make it look good and give all the correct
information---please scan and send to me or to him at
[e-mail]     off line of course

he is included on the CC line and again thanks for the help

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:52:11 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

thanks pard will send it out to the young lad that sent me a note
requesting it---he is doing a school paper on him---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:07:52 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:.beckworth

I accidently deleted the e-mail address of the young lad doing the
Beckworth report.  The AMM Western was held near Beckworth country in the
Sierras, in Calif..  I have some pics of Beckworth Peak, memorial
plaques, his trading post, etc....  I could send them if interested, but
would need the e-mail address again.  Jim Hardee took those of us who
were interested on an educational tour of the area.  It was great, thanks
again Jim.      hardtack

Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
O'Donnel fat?

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:37:07 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: new e-club

    I have just created a new on-line discussion club for muzzle loaders and
rendezvous enthusiasts who live in the Ozarks region of Arkansas and
Missouri.  Anyone is welcome to visit the site and those who live in the
Ozarks are welcomed and encouraged to join.
    Check it out at:  http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders
Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas


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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:11:27 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Palmer Schatell)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifle and revolver caliber   Jim Bridger's charger

At 12:45 AM 22/02/01 -0500, you wrote:


>     Somewhere in all this dialogue there should be something about what kind
>of charge would stop a what without using excess powder and bruising your
>body.
>Most sincerely
>Richard James
>Sir:

I had a friend who spent time in Alaska hunting Kodiak bears with a .58
rifled musket. He swears he used two (2) Minnie balls nose to nose in front
of 100 grains of ffg. He also allowed this load killed from one end and
crippled from the other. I can't imagine going after any bear with any
single shot other than an M-79 40mm grenade launcher.

Palmer (3-coupes) Schatell

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:55:49 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tim Jewell's tarp

Yepper.  Different strokes for different folks.  I simply got tired of
messing with the round balls a rope.  They always seemed to come undone when
being transported which meant find the round ball or a new one and retying
etc. Loops stay put, just stake it down. I have two diamonds now.  Got a
small 10' x 10' for packing on my back, etc., when we go off trekking and
such or if I decide to just do a one nighter at a vous and can't drive in.
This one I had the loop in the center added to tie off to a tree etc.  My
larger diamond is 12' x 12' and has no such loop.  I haven't felt the need.
With this one I take a different approach.  While up at Stickwalker's place a
couple years ago he allowed me to cut a couple saplings down. The two I
selected were real straight. I put them side by side and tightly wrapped them
from one end to the other with thin rope. Then cut another just the right
length and took my hawk to it and put a point on one end and chopped at the
other end to form a flat point. (Trying to put this into words isn't easy) In
other words this second end is sort of a tapered wedge so to speak. I take
the two straight, wrapped limbs and place against the ceiling on the inside
pointing from the front to the back, then force the wedged end of the single
pole into the center of the other two at the center, lift up and put the
pointed end into the ground. this lifts the roof up and bows it from front to
back. You have to deal with a pole in the center of the shelter, but in a 12'
x 12' shelter this doesn't seem to be a real problem.  Works great for me.
So much so that last year I sold my tipi as I found myself not using it
anymore. I love the diamond set up and just plan on using it. If you want to
get real complicated with it, I've got a design in mind that would allow me
to enclose this shelter with two wedge shaped pieces of canvas attached with
lace pins ( like those used on a tipi).

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
(Newly Redesigned)
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:02:53 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp

In a message dated 2/20/01, [e-mail] writes:

<< I think you went to that method cause you spend so much time unloading
 everything else that you don't have time to set up your tent.>>

Not anymore Fox, I got things wittled down to next to nothing now. I can load
my camp and gear and still have room fer that little toy truck of yers in the
back now.

<< Why don't you tell them about your "trek" last fall in the Shawnee, where
you
 foundered under the weight. >>

Covered that in my last post.....I got me a shinny new 10' x 10' fer X-Mas
from the Missus.

Longshot

"Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage"
(Newly Redesigned)
http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:41:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- now Grizz loads

In a message dated 2/22/01 1:42:12 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I had a friend who spent time in Alaska hunting Kodiak bears with a .58
rifled musket. He swears he used two (2) Minnie balls nose to nose in front
of 100 grains of ffg. >>

Whoa.....sounds like a pretty serious load for very close work! <G>

I shot a 9ft+ brown bear in Alaska about 25 years ago using a 338 mag. (not a
M/L) The bear charged after being hit through the chest (and lungs) at about
100yards.. it took two more well placed shots (the last at 10yds) to stop the
bear. I would have gladly used a bazooka for the last shot!

An examination of the damage revealed all 3 shots would have been
fatal,(chest/lung hits, 2nd shot broke near shoulder) but the bear didn't
seem to know it/or care. I believe the problem was the bear knew exactly
where I was when I shot, and was running on pure adrenaline.... me too for
that matter....<G>  ...I blew the stalk.

In my humble opinion, it's almost as important that the critter not know it's
being hunted (stressed!), as a well placed shot. I have used the heaviest
load I can get (read fastest round ball) till the accuracy starts falling off
(about 105grs fffg with my 50cal, any more powder and I blow patches) and
have killed moose, caribou, and black bear. I'm sure a lighter load works
fine on big animals, but this works for me.

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:42:21 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new e-club

In a message dated 2/22/1 02:41:19 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders>>

Frank
I tried to get into this site but I got bounced off every option they gave
me.  Can you hand-fit my e-mail address into the site?
RJames

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