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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, February 21 2001     Volume 01 : Number 753



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws - Now Off Topic
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering
-áááááá MtMan-List: ... OT - Items on the Coyote & Spring Beaver Trapping
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: ... OT - Items on the Coyote & Spring Beaver Trapping
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering
-áááááá MtMan-List: "Pioneer" lists
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fw: poncho
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fw: saws
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Canadian fur trade museums
-áááááá MtMan-List: Ojiway recall 1850 tragedy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dining Cloth Was Poncho
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering
-áááááá MtMan-List:Ft Osage & Arrow Rock(was insults)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dining Cloth Was Poncho
-áááááá MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "Pioneer" lists
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp/end results
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:10:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

In a message dated 2/19/01 12:32:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< ight be a thin spot in the logic that they were necessarily
 rare then, just because originals are rare today.  >>
I agree with that suppositon.  Used to see crosscut saws everywhere as little
as 40 years ago.  Now they are not impossible but getting harder to find.At
least in this part of the woods.  What will it be like another 100 years from
now?  Maybe the same principle applies to the frame saws mentioned.
- -C.Kent

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:21:16 -0500
From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws - Now Off Topic

As with most things, even those worth saving,
time takes it's toll.  I've got an old 6 ft. pit
saw, wooden handles long since rotted away, that I've
had for many years.  The only reason I still keep
it (hanging in my shop) is to remind myself that there
were folks who worked one hell of a lot harder then most
of us ever will!  I really pity the poor b*****ds who
had to use this tool, especially the guy on the bottom.

Tom

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/19/01 12:32:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
> ....Used to see crosscut saws everywhere as little
> as 40 years ago.  Now they are not impossible but getting harder to find.At
> least in this part of the woods.  What will it be like another 100 years from
> now?  Maybe the same principle applies to the frame saws mentioned.
> -C.Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:31:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

> I agree with that suppositon.  Used to see crosscut saws everywhere as
little
>  as 40 years ago.  Now they are not impossible but getting harder to
find.At
>  least in this part of the woods.  What will it be like another 100 years
from
>  now?  Maybe the same principle applies to the frame saws mentioned.

Russell"s book Firearms, Tools, Traps, etc has in the back, Appendix B.
It is Astor's inventory of tools and blasmithing equipt. on the Columbia
river 1812-1813.
This detailed inventory was taken prior to the sale of Astoria to the North
West Co.

For saws, it lists:
3  Cross cut saws
3  Whip saws (used)
3  Fret saws (used)
1  Compass saw
3  Compass saws (used)
1  Hand saw (used)
1  Sash saw  (used)
3  Saw sets
2  Saw sets (used)
The used items were in use by the company's carpenters and field crews.
Seems like 3 of each is the magic number in most cases.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:53:40 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

Ho, the list!

If I might drag us back to the original comment that started all the
hooraw-- With reference to the "missing" mountains Hood and Adams on the
1814 published version of William Clark's map: blame the copyist, Samuel
Lewis, not the cartographer, William Clark. Clark's manuscript clearly shows
both Hood (named) and Adams (unnamed). Hood had been shown on maps since the
publication of George Vancouver's journals in the 1790s and was well known
to Lewis and Clark before they even left St. Louis. When, on Friday, October
18, 1805, Clark described seeing "a mountain bearing S.W. Conocal form
Covered with Snow" he was describing Mount Hood from the east. He was, at
this point, literally back in the "known world".

There are, by the way, a number of other significant variations between the
published version of the Clark map and the original manuscript. None of the
"corrections" inserted by Samuel Lewis improved the accuracy of Clark's
original--quite the opposite, in fact. The original William Clark 1810 map
is in the Coe Collection at the Beineke Library at Yale University; Yale
reproduced it full size (about 3' X 4') a number of years ago. I wouldn't be
surprised if some copies (4 separate sheets) weren't still available from
the Yale University Press or some reputable map dealers somewhere.

The good captains made an occasional mistake--but missing these two landmark
peaks was not among them.

WABWIRSY

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:31 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!


> Speaking of Lewis and Clark...
>
> I've been looking over my 1814 map of Lewis and Clark's track (copied by
> Samuel Lewis from the original drawings of Wm. Clark) and guess what?!!?
> ....there ain't no Mt Hood! ...and no Mt Adams either. He's got Mt Rainer,
Mt
> St Helens, even Mt Jefferson but no Mt Hood or Adams. Those guys blind or
> what?!??
>
> Now, I know it gets cloudy and rains a bit around here, but hell, I can
see
> them hills from my camp once in awhile! Mebbe they just popped up after
them
> boys headed back East....
>
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:12:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering

Rudy:  Hate to have to be asked to be taken off the history list,  but with
the hours I work, and the time that I can allot to the computer the drivel is
more than I can bear.  300 or more emails at a time would be worthwhile if I
could add to my knowledge, but the recent Bs is more than I can allow my time
to be wasted.  Please keep me on the AMM list.  Thanks

Till trails cross
Turtle

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:08:28 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: ... OT - Items on the Coyote & Spring Beaver Trapping

Michigan Out-Of-Doors Magazine, March 2001, pp.44-46; 52-54.
Coyote article & 8 color photos (including cover shot) by Mark Werner.
Spring Beaver Trapping article & 1 color photo by Gregg Schefferly.

"The Coyote, Super Survivor - Anglo explorers first called him the
"prairie wolf", the one who watched over the Great Plains.  The Navajos
referred to him as "God's dog".  In 1823, the famous naturalist, Thomas
Say, gave us the Latin name, Canis latrans, meaning barking dog.  For
over 80 years, folks in the northern regions labeled him the brush wolf.
...  Michigan hunters and trappers harvest an average of 4,000 coyotes
annually ... Yet, because of juvenile dispersal and recolonization,
coyotes have only further expanded their range.  ... Humans have yet to
learn to live in accordance with the land, as the coyote does."

" a pack basket full of big 330 Conibears".
The Michigan Trappers Association convention will be August 3-5 on the
Alma fairgrounds.  ... The Northern Great Lakes Fur Harvesters
Association convention will be Sept. 22-23 at Kinross.  ... The Upper
Peninsula Trappers Association convention wil be Aug. 3-5 on the U.P.
State Fairgrounds, Escanaba.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:58:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber

 Jin-o-ta-ka
You might want to give that .54 another try, with less powder. Start out with
50 to 60 grains of powder. You'll find it doesn't kick bad with a light load.
Jill my better half shoots a .54. She stands 4' 11 1/2" on her tip toes
weighs 108 lb. soakin wet with rocks in her pockets. We started her out with
50 grains for target shooting and when she's hunting she uses 80 grains. She
says she never fells the kick when shooting at game. She has taken Deer, Elk
and a Moose with her 54.  The only big game animal I would use a .45 on is
deer.  Just my 1 cent worth.
                                                      See ya on the trail
                                                         Crazy Cyot

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:31:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ... OT - Items on the Coyote & Spring Beaver Trapping

In a message dated 2/20/1 11:09:08 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<"The Coyote, Super Survivor - Anglo explorers first called him the
"prairie wolf", the one who watched over the Great Plains.  The Navajos
referred to him as "God's dog". >>

Don't know where the author got his stuff but Navajos call them "skin
walkers".  They can be evil or mischevious humans transformed into animals to
further their own cause and Navajos won't have anything to do with them
including touching their hides or any other part.  As for me, I had one for a
pet and my feeling is you couldn't ask for a more lovable little friend than
a coyote or a wolf (had a total of 42 of them).
RJames

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:40:54 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber

In a message dated 2/21/1 12:58:46 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<You might want to give that .54 another try, with less powder. Start out
with
50 to 60 grains of powder. You'll find it doesn't kick bad with a light
load.>>

The field load for a Civil War musket was 60 grains and that was pushing a
505 grain Minie ball.  Years ago a group of us were shooting these for
accuracy and found the best grouping was with 30 grains.  My feeling is that
the urgency to "really stoke 'er up" is over played.  They have Jim Bridger's
horn and charger at the Fort in Wyoming.  His Charger throws 53.5 grains
which probably works out one grain of powder for each tick of caliber.
Loosely translated: .54 cal . . .  use 54 grains for a hunting load.  This is
not a modern chronograph study - it is history.
RJames

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:31:44 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering

Get ahold of me off list address below I all so deal with fort oasge are know
people who can help you out.

Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
[e-mail]

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:08:37 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Pioneer" lists

Linda wrote "What area are you looking for???  Cowboy, Native american,
Single shot or Wild west? etc.

None of the above - just plain old common homesteaders, the kind of folk
that never shot anybody (well, almost never), just came west with their
families to quietly eke out a living from the land as the fur trade died
out.

I have found on the Web the groups you mentioned but I have not found the
"less colourful" people.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

> "Best, Dianne" wrote:

> Can any of you fellas (or gals) point me to a list that deals with a later
> time period, like 1850-1900, other than "old west"?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>

P.S. As to all the bickering, just ignore it. Unruly boys settle down if
they don't have an audience.

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:24:13 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho

    While reading one of Terry Johnston's books, I saw a reference to a
"gum poncho".  The book setting is slightly later than 1840 [Gold Rush time]
but I was wondering if anyone knows what a gum poncho is and whether they
might have been found during the RMFT period or earlier.
Frank Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas



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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:25:23 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: saws

Subject: saws



    On reading the discussions about saws, it occurred to me that furniture
has been made with sawn wood for many centuries.
It is not unreasonable to surmise that some saws may have traveled west
with trappers, traders and others during the RMFT period.
Frank Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas




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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:29:53 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho

I saw an original "gum poncho"  in a museum, dated from the mid 19thC. It
resembled a modern day poncho, (no hood). It was made of heavy cloth with
gum rubber painted on it. This one was cracked and very dried.  If I
remember, this "gum rubber" never really hardened and was a sticky, somewhat
gooey item in the heat...
 I don't know about it's existence in the RMFT, but it was an issue item in
the ACW.
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:49:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber

In a message dated 2/21/2001 3:41:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< His Charger throws 53.5 grains
 which probably works out one grain of powder for each tick of caliber.
 Loosely translated: .54 cal . . .  use 54 grains for a hunting load.  This
is
 not a modern chronograph study - it is history.
 RJames >>

I've seen references to a "rule of thumb" for years calling for  @ 1 grain
per number in loads.  Probably a good place to work from.  My "squirrel" load
in .32 is 20 grains (3f) and is real hard on the backstrap & shortribs if I
flinch.

Greg

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:57:30 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp

I've also used two poles crossed in a x about 3/4 of the way towards the
back of the diamond fly.  I had some ties on the tent that would tie
into these, really opened the back of the tent.  I had a 10x10 diamond
fly (with flaps) that my two boys and I slept in, we were even
comfortable.  Only problem was that I used to light of canvas (painters
cloth).

Jim

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:18:21 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canadian fur trade museums

Don't forget Fort William (Thunder Bay, Ont) and Grand Portage
(northeastern Minnesota).  If you want to go lower, there are two
rebuilt NW posts, one at Pine City, Mn and the other north of Webster,
WI (where there was actually a NW and XY post next to each other).

Jim

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
 { .  }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |
  \   /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,
   |__|  http://www.ecol.net/~lindy/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:45:49 -0600
From: Jim Lindberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ojiway recall 1850 tragedy

From "The Vision" published by the St. Croix Chippewa.

Sandy Lake, Minn -- Some 4,000 Ojibwe Indians trekked to Sandy Lake in
northern Minnesota 150 years ago expecting to collect money and supplies
the federal government had promised them by treaty.

But when the tribal members from Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan
arrived in early October, tired and hungry, they found no one there to
distribute the supplies.  Waiting for two months with no shelter and
little foodd, 170 died of disease, exposure, starvation and other
causes.

After finally receiving partial payments on December 5, 1850, many
headed home.  But with low temperatures. frozen waterways and a foot of
snow on the ground, 230 died en route.

In 1850 the federal government ordered the distribution site moved from
La Pointe (Madeline Island in Lake Superior near present day Bayfield,
WI) to Sandy Lake.  It was an attempt by the federal government to
remove Indians from other areas into Minnesota.


Hey, maybe this will put some of the bickering in perspective.  Remember
this list is part campfire, if it gets a little to hot, just sit back a
minute and it'll cool down, there's no need to be fannin' the flames.
My opinion.

Jim

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  /`-_    Jim Lindberg                |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa
 { .  }/ 724 East Grand Avenue        |
  \   /  Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter,
   |__|  http://www.ecol.net/~lindy/  |Until we next meete.  Go Gentle.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:00:33 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: poncho

Frank,     There were rubberized ponchos made in Mexico from very early
on.  The spanish used them in florida in the 1600's.  raw rubber was
painted on cloth. It was not vulcanized so was sticky , as Dennis says.
It also dried out and cracked eventually.  These are called Mangas now,
from the place in Mexico were they are made.  I had one, until it dried
out so bad as to be useless.  They only documentation I could find was a
quote from Narcissa Whittman's journal talking about her 'India rubber
pocho" serving as table and table cloth when spread on the ground to dine
upon.  This was in 1836.  hope this helps.  hardtack

Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
O'Donnel fat?

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:04:03 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dining Cloth Was Poncho

"'India rubber pocho" serving as table and table cloth when spread on the
ground to dine upon"

Hardtack,
 This reminds me of a book of memoirs I have from Emmanuel Hatfield. He was
born in the South Fork on Parched Corn Creek (Tn) in the late 1700's and
moved to the wilds of Indiana in 1815 or 17 (don't remember now). But he
mentions all throughout the book from his childhood with his family to his
later years as ALWAYS having a "Dining Clothe" with him. Any time he was in
the woods.. Just a square piece of clothe to eat off of. A little bit of
"civilization" no matter what he was doing..
D

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

   "Knowing how is just the beginning."



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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:48:34 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Palmer Schatell)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: insults and bickering

>
>     O.K.,  I've had enough of this crap.  The worlds not bad enough
>having to do things that we don't want to do, some of you live your
>lives trying to make everyone else miserable doing the things we enjoy
>doing.

I know I'm a newbie to this list, but I have seen other hobbies ruined by
the confrontational and I would hate to see it again. I wholeheartedly
agree with you comments.

Palmer (3-Coupes) Schatell


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:28:58 -0600
From: Monte Holder <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List:Ft Osage & Arrow Rock(was insults)

Randal J Bublitz wrote:

>  Is Karalee
> Tearney still doing business at Arrow Rock?  Might be a good place to
> check out?  The phone number I have is [phone]from an old catalog.

Being right down the road from Arrow Rock, the Area Code is now (660).  I see
Ms Tearney around from time to time at events in the village.

Monte Holder
Saline Co MO


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:35:35 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dining Cloth Was Poncho

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Miles"

> ...and moved to the wilds of Indiana in 1815 or 17 (don't remember now).
But he
> mentions all throughout the book from his childhood with his family to his
> later years as ALWAYS having a "Dining Clothe" with him. Any time he was
in
> the woods.. Just a square piece of clothe to eat off of. A little bit of
> "civilization" no matter what he was doing..

Hello all,

Another reference to this practice (and from the RMFT) is on one of Millers
paintings.  IIRC it was titled "Trappers At Breakfast" (?) and shows a group
of several trappers sitting around a large cloth spread on the ground
waiting to eat.

I also saw a reference to a Mangas in a journal or inventory in the xmission
list, I wrote down the word to check on what it was but I'll be darned if I
can find it now.


          Tim
[e-mail]


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:08:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous

Are you going to attend the October doins?

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:31:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!

In a message dated 2/20/01 8:54:25 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The good captains made an occasional mistake--but missing these two
landmark

peaks was not among them.

 >>

Thank you John!

Through all that smoke.... I got an answer....actually several. I was curious
how less than 10 year after the L&C walk in the woods, the hills were not on
the map. Mebbe no proof readers back then....

Magpie

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:54:06 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous

Being as how I now live in W Va., you can betthe "Mouse House" will be at
the Eastern 2001....

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


> Are you going to attend the October doins?




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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:47:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Pioneer" lists

In a message dated 2/21/1 06:10:11 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Can any of you fellas (or gals) point me to a list that deals with a later

> time period, like 1850-1900, other than "old west"?

>

> Thanks!

>

> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

>>>

We are very heavy in lore and writings in this area as this period when the
region was settled.  Lots of publications and some videos, but you are going
to find Brigham Young's name laced through much of it.  Lots on pioneer
trecks, daily life in the cabins and later, Indians, troops, etc.
Interested??
RJames

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:52:54 -0700
From: Charlie Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws

<Used to see crosscut saws everywhere  as little
<as 40 years ago.  Now they are not impossible ......................


Howdy,
Just a comment on the availability of old saws in my part of Colorado.
About
fifteen years ago local artists  and artist wannabees began painting
landscape
scenes on any old saw blades they could get their hands on, even circle
saws.
I began collecting old blades and saws some thirty years ago to use, not
squirrel
away until the price went up.  I have several saws and fret saws that I
use regularly
on my various living history projects. I feel that I am more closely
replicating the
way things were created  by those we are attempting to emulate. By using
similar
hand tools to what they used gives me great pleasure.  As for the painted
pit and
cross cut saws, the tourist trade seemed to love them to the point that
several
manufacturers are now stamping out look alike saw blades just for
artists painting
projects.
        The steel in most of the old saws is excellent for patch knives
and other
cutlery projects.  I use a treadle type  grind stone that drips water out
of a coffee
can onto the stone to keep the steel cool when using this removal method.

Respectfully,
C Webb

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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:36:24 -0800
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Eastern rendezvous

I wish I could be there.  But I will be in Great Falls, Montana for a
conference on Native American Art.

http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm

Linda Holley

Addison Miller wrote:

> Being as how I now live in W Va., you can betthe "Mouse House" will be at
> the Eastern 2001....
>
> Ad Miller
> Alderson, WV
>
> > Are you going to attend the October doins?
>
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:28:28 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

18 Aug. 1833 - We saw some large bands of elk but our hunters were more
conceited than good which I have generally found to be the case with the
hunters in this country they are not willing that a new hand should even
try, and are far from good shots themselves and commonly have miserable
flint guns which snap continually and afford an excuse for not killing.

Just an observation.

Ducking for cover in Baltimore,
              Tim

Tim,
  It's hard to tell exactly what was going thru Wyeth's mind at that point.
They had been killing game in the days previous to the 18th, and the days
after.  It may have been that Wyeth was just disgusted with them, because
apparently they were all drunk on the 16th.  At that point maybe their guns
were in ill repair.  Possibly they did not have any good gun flints.  It's a
bit of a mystery.
  Another interesting quote was by Osbourne Russell.  After he had signed on
with HBC, he states that he wishes he had a rifle gun.  (I'm paraphasing)
They were short on meat and he was having a miserable time hitting anything
with the trade guns they were issued by HBC.  That statement alone would
lead you to think the trade guns were of inferior quality, but HBC generally
sold Barrnett Trade Guns which were the standard of the industry.  But if
you read on he states that the young Indian Lad he was hunting with was a
dead shot with the trade guns, which leads me to believe Russell just wasn't
a very good shot with a trade gun.
  Historical quotes are interesting because you never know exactly what the
author was thinking at that particular time.  Sometimes I wonder if the
author was just having a lousy day .
  Just my thoughts.

Pendleton



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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:31:56 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry pendleton"   Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock popularity

Larry,

I threw that out as a combination of a little "dig" at flintlockers (don't
jump on me...I'm in the middle of deciding on my first flintlock purchase)
and because I found it interesting that Nat had such a strong opinion at
such an early point in caplock history.

>   It's hard to tell exactly what was going thru Wyeth's mind at that
point.
> They had been killing game in the days previous to the 18th, and the days
> after.  It may have been that Wyeth was just disgusted with them, because
> apparently they were all drunk on the 16th

That is something else I was thinking about: They had been out over a year,
it was before the rendezvous in 1833.  I was amazed that they had any
"liquor" at all at that point of their journey, much less enough to get
drunk on.  It makes me wonder how it was packaged and how many other parties
at least tried to keep som alcohol with them between rendezvous.

>   Historical quotes are interesting because you never know exactly what
the
> author was thinking at that particular time.  Sometimes I wonder if the
> author was just having a lousy day .
>   Just my thoughts.

Very true, kinda like trying to figure out whether someone is serious or
joking on this thing and they didn't add any <BG> to help us figure it out.
Personally I think Nat just had a big hangover.

That research/documentation "bug" bit me almost as hard as the smokepole bug
did.

Still reading in Baltimore,
             Tim
  [e-mail]




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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:50:14 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp/end results

Hello the camp,

I ended up with the ties in the center seam, hemp/leather grommets spaced
along the sides and leather reinforcement for a center pole if needed.  I
took it out back today and tried all the differant suggestions for setting
it up.  The neighbor asked what it was and thought I was nuts when I told
him.  He told me I could borrow his Eureka tent any time I wanted.  Some
folks just don't get it when you try to explain this stuff to them.

Thanks again for all the advise,
                 Tim
     [e-mail]




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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:14:56 -0600
From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp

>
> Victoria, et al, First, please note that both these set-ups can also
> be done  with no poles by having loops on the center seam, and using
correct
> rope placement.
>
>> If you (or any other readers) have a Panther catalog, check the page
> on Diamond Shelters; it has diagrams.  If not, and any of you want
> pics, contact me offline and I will fax or mail photocopies of the
designs.
>>Both are very cool.   Barney

          Hi Barney,
          Thanks for your explanation. I followed it up
          by looking at the diagrams in my Panther Primitives
          catalog.  Having the option of using ropes instead
          of poles is appealing to me.

          Thanks,
           Victoria

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