In a message dated 2/19/1 09:08:52 AM, admiller@brier.net writes:
<<when I remarried, and my wife started doing the 'Vous
with me... heh... whole different story. She wanted a porta-potty for the
tent (not a chamber pot), and I made her a period double bed with rope
springs, period hardware, etc...>>
This situation describes my motives for moving back into the Colonial period
for one personna but maintining my "old address" in the buckskin bunch when
the situation calls for that type of historic correctness. Having "been
there, done that" (as best my recollection serves me. It was a long time
ago). . . I find it more fulfilling to be involved in a period of history
with broader perameters. Part of what I am saying is: after the skills and
crafts of trapping in the Rockies (where I have always lived anyway) there
are a lot of pleasurable skills to learn and practice associated with
frontier living. Then if there is a gathering with requirements my wife
doesn't subscribe to - that calls for a change of personna that includes the
ammenities she is willing to abide by. Both worlds - and I can enjoy myself.
RJames
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:18:33 -0500
From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws
John,
I guess I didn't choose as good of a topic as I had hoped.
The salt discussion fared much better.
John Kramer wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> If you will read my posting in the order first written without deletions
> you will note I am referring to the folding combination tools with saw as
> "exotic": not framed saws which were common in a wide array of size & form;
> common to the period not necessarily to trappers.
I must have misunderstood you, my deletions were for consolidation only.
>
> Most framed saws were provided as bare blades and modern Swedish bow saw
> blades are a different tooth pattern than was known then (just in case
> someone has a brain storm).
I have no doubt the teeth were probably simpler, possibly nothing more
than
alternating points with some rake.
>
> What Jed Smith had is purely speculation and could have been metal cutting
> saws as readily as wood cutting saws. Just because he had a few when he
> went under still doesn't make any type of saw an item common to a trappers
> equipage. Think about where he was and what he was doing when he died.
I believe he was headed for new territory in the interest of turning a
profit.
>
> What saws would be of best utility to a trapper? Why? Careful, modern
> perceptions can lead period speculations astray.
I can think of a couple uses, may be all wrong, but they're thoughts,
not claims.
1) to clear out a couple of large deadfalls to allow a group of laden
horses to pass through
a tight draw.
2) to size the covering poles/logs for a bearproof and stable cache
> In a primitive Rocky Mountain camp where we scavenge for wood a cross cut
> saw for gathering firewood would be very inappropriate. In a public camp
> where we must burn the wain cuttings from a saw mill one would, along with
> a splitting tool (axe or maul), be nearly a necessity regardless of whether
> appropriate.
Ok.
>
> John...
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:25:35 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
In a message dated 2/19/2001 5:10:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
yrrw@airmail.net writes:
<< In plain english, Bubba,
he ain't threatened by much of anything !
Pendleton >>
Then why does he insist on personal attacks for a little one sentence jibe
about a mapping expedition missing a couple very promnent topographic
features. You'd think someone attacked his family honor. You must be from
Arkansas. They call everyone Bubba. Usually a sign of insecurity.
Greg
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:43:21 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
BrayHaven Wrote" Then why does he insist on personal attacks for a little
one sentence jibe "
>
>>Listen, you porkeatin' flatlander, you outta know better than "jibe" a
fella that you don't know...
Or are you THAT stupd??? Cmon up here to Ohio and "jibe" me.. I will show
you "insecure" Threat? Nooo..Promise? You bet your ass.
D
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:59:47 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis&Clark and Mt Hood!
In a message dated 2/19/2001 9:44:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
deforge1@bright.net writes:
<< >>Listen, you porkeatin' flatlander, you outta know better than "jibe" a
fella that you don't know...
Or are you THAT stupd??? Cmon up here to Ohio and "jibe" me.. I will show
you "insecure" Threat? Nooo..Promise? You bet your ass.
D >>
This list sure is overrun with intellectuals isn't it. Duh, What happened
to all that YMOS and all the civility? I've seen a lot of mailing lists, but
never one with so much animosity and downright lack of basic courtesy.
Maybe a waiting period and background check would be a good law.... for the
purchase of a computer.
Greg
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:12:07 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
I just wanted to thank those that gave their advise on my projects. I
finished my tarp this morning (hand sewn), reinforced the center and added
peg loops on the corners. I'm going to use the alum and lime treatment to
make it more water resistant.
Capt. Lahti, when I get my rum horn finished I'll make sure it stays full
for you and any others that may wish to share my camp fire. Of course that
may be a problem since it will only hold about a pint <G>.
Thanks again,
I remain.....
Tim
tjewell@home.com
Baltimoretowne
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:33:28 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
Of course that
> may be a problem since it will only hold about a pint <G>.
>
> Thanks again,
Tim,
Your welcome. The rum horn sounds fine. I can't hold more than a pint at a
time anyway. <G>
You might find your tarp to be just that more versitile if you add some peg
loops at more frequent intervals than just at each corner. I'm going to
rethink the placement of loops on mine. Not sure off the top of my head how
many I have but suspect they are three on a side with one at each corner.
That seems to be a minimum for me. I'm thinking five on a side and one at
each corner might add some serious versatility without much extra weight.
And the loops aren't just for pegs. They make handy places to tie a short
piece of cord to, so you can stretch the tarp at that point out to an anchor
of whatever your imagination will find.
Good luck and have fun.
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:45:07 EST
From: MarkLoader@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
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According to Mumey; Jim Bridger, Richard Owens, Lucien Maxwell and Alexander
Godey were also part of the eighteen chosen mountain men. The source for
this information is not given. He states his sources in the preface as
"material has been gathered from letters, newspaper articles, unpublished
manuscripts, personal interviews with pioneers, and direct information from
Baker's living relatives."
This is reprint 1972 from the 1931 first print.
Thanks "Roadkill"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>According to Mumey; Jim Bridger, Richard Owens, Lucien Maxwell and Alexander
<BR>Godey were also part of the eighteen chosen mountain men. The source for
<BR>this information is not given. He states his sources in the preface as
<BR>"material has been gathered from letters, newspaper articles, unpublished
<BR>manuscripts, personal interviews with pioneers, and direct information from
<BR>Baker's living relatives."
<BR> This is reprint 1972 from the 1931 first print.
<BR>Thanks "Roadkill"</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:45:08 EST
From: MarkLoader@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:51:01 EST
From: Mtnman1449@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
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Mark-- the problem, if you will, the the Mumey book on Jim Baker is his lack
of documentation. Much is hearsay from "family" sources etc. He also
extensively lists the reference "the I. W. Brewster" manuscript. After years
of mystery, and searching, I have a copy of that manuscript. It too, lacks
sufficient documentation.
Leighton Baker, in his book about Jim Baker published in 1995, tried to
provide better sources and to correct any of the inaccuracies of the Mumey
version of Jim Bakers life. I have that as well. You may find it in the
bookstore of the Colorado History Museum in Denver.
Contact me directly and we can help.
Patrick J. Surrena
Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449
Colorado
emaiL: mtnman1449@aol.com
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Americana BT" LANG="0"><B>Mark-- the problem, if you will, the the Mumey book on Jim Baker is his lack
<BR>of documentation. Much is hearsay from "family" sources etc. He also
<BR>extensively lists the reference "the I. W. Brewster" manuscript. After years
<BR>of mystery, and searching, I have a copy of that manuscript. It too, lacks
<BR>sufficient documentation.
<BR>
<BR>Leighton Baker, in his book about Jim Baker published in 1995, tried to
<BR>provide better sources and to correct any of the inaccuracies of the Mumey
<BR>version of Jim Bakers life. I have that as well. You may find it in the
<BR>bookstore of the Colorado History Museum in Denver.
<BR>
<BR>Contact me directly and we can help. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#ff80c0" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Americana BT" LANG="0">
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#800000" SIZE=3 FACE="Emerald Isle" LANG="0"></B>Patrick J. Surrena
<BR>Jim Baker Party, The American Mountain Men, #1449
<BR>Colorado
<BR>emaiL: mtnman1449@aol.com</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:59:57 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp
Tim
I noticed that you posted that you finished you tarp. It sounds good. Let
me tell you how I use mine....
I have a tarp with very small loops at the corners and at a couple of spots
along each side. I took pieces of stout cord (not as large as window sash
cord but stout cord nonetheless) about two feet long and tied them to each
loop, leaving two pieces about a foot long each dangling from the loop.
When I set up, I drive a hefty stake (cut on the spot) and tie the pieces
of cord to the stake, taking a couple of turns around the stake in opposite
directions with each piece of cord, and tie with a simple bow knot, usually
on the side of thestake nearest the tarp. I then drive the stake a little
deeper.... flush to the ground sometimes.....leaving the dangling ends from
the bow knot accessible. When time comes to break down, all that's
necessary is to pull one of the dangling cords from the bow knot and you are
loose from the stake, which doesn't even have to be removed if you have
driven it flush to the ground. This prevents stressing the loops by tugging
on the stake to loosen it as well as saving a lot of wear and tear on the
loop from the abrasion attendant with using a stake driven into the ground
through the loop.
On you next project leave off loops entirely and use some of the same stout
cord to tie smooth round pebbles (or 50 caliber round balls) into a little
pocket formed at each corner....just form the pocket with your finger,
insert the pebble and tie your cord "under its neck, so to speak". This
will provide the very useful ties I just discussed without the trouble of
making loops.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:10:50 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tim Jewell's tarp
Lanney,
That sounds like a good setup, right handy...I will borrow it..<G> One
thing I did, when I did my tarp, at the corners and on the edged, I sewed
"hemp grommets" in, using 1/4" hemp rope, reinforced with oil tanned
leather.. They have lasted for 6-7 yrs now with no tearouts or real signs of
wear..
D
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:33:45 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting II
Hello Ole,
The information in the Miller drawings you are talking about was the kind of
information that Ponyrider was convaying to the list some time back. I
found this in a book from TOW in conjunction to that discussion. "In 1902
Hiram Martin Chittenden, who spent six years scanning fur trade papers,
estimated that at least four-fifths of approximately five thousand men in
the American fur trade were of French-Canadian or Mississippi Valley creole
background." This quote can be seen on page 11 of the book French Fur
Traders & Voyageurs in the American West by LeRoy R. Hafen.
Walt
> Hello the Camp!
> I did a litle reserch looking at drawings made by Alfred Jacob Miller in
the
> book "the West of Alfred Jacob Miller" what I found was this.
> Page 76 intitled "Threatened Attack" I counted 10 wagons or 2 wheeled
carts.
> Also one of his colored drawings titled "Caravan en Route" I counted 14
> wagons or 2 wheeled carts.
> Page 177 titled "Our Camp" shows 4 Wagons and 7- 2 wheel carts, it also
> shows 2 wedge tents.
> The carts were called "Charettes".
> Page 149 titled "Mirage" shows 3 Wagons, it also shows a man leading 2
pack
> animals.
> The drawins show both Carts and Wagons with canvas covers.
> Also in the notes on page 177 it states that they formed a circumferance
of
> 500 t0 600 feet with there wagons and carts being about 30 feet apart if
> this is accurate there would have been 17 to 21 vehicles.
> This would not include pack animals.
> Talk about hauling freight, how much would the trappers have traded for
> there next seasons? and taken to there winter camps?.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:53:36 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French fur traders & Voyageurs in the American West by Le Roy R. Hafren
Does anybody else on this list have this book?
French fur traders & Voyageurs in the American West by Le Roy R. Hafren ?
Walt
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:47:33 -0700
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping with Kit Carson
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Mark,
Here is what I have found on it:
- -Jean Yarbough, great grand daughter of Jim Baker, says her mother
and grand mother telling that Jim was with Kit on that trip. ( Jim
Baker,
the red headed shoshone, page 80)
- -In "Lucien Bonaparte Maxwell, napoleon of the southwest", declares he
went on this pleasure trip.The notes says that the info came from
Carter's
"Dear Old Kit" p 132 and the Kit Carson chapter in Hafen's big set
volume
6, page 124
Might find out who was in the area at the time and who were old
friends
with Kit It was a good size group of men, probably all old timers who
knew
the area well and thought the trip would be fun. Check out the Colorado
State
historical society, know I 've read more on this there.
mike.
MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:
> In the book "The Life of Jim Baker 1818-1898" by Nolie Mumey page 81
> In the
> summer of 1852 Baker received an invitation from Kit Carson as did 17
> other
> surveying mountain men for one last hooray and trapping expedition.
> They
> left Carson's ranch in New Mexico and traveled thru North Park and
> South
> Park, along the South and North Platte, the Green, Yampa, Little
> Snake, Wind,
> Sweetwater and the Arkansas Rivers before returning to his ranch for
> some
> good old mountain man contests. Does any one know of othe sorces of
> information?
> Thanks Roadkill
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Mark,
<br> Here is what I have found on it:
<br>-Jean Yarbough, great grand daughter of Jim Baker, says her mother
<br>and grand mother telling that Jim was with Kit on that trip. ( Jim
Baker,
<br>the red headed shoshone, page 80)
<br>-In "Lucien Bonaparte Maxwell, napoleon of the southwest", declares
he
<br>went on this pleasure trip.The notes says that the info came from Carter's
<br>"Dear Old Kit" p 132 and the Kit Carson chapter in Hafen's big set
volume
<br>6, page 124
<br> Might find out who was in the area at the time and
who were old friends
<br>with Kit It was a good size group of men, probably all old timers who
knew
<br>the area well and thought the trip would be fun. Check out the Colorado
State
<br>historical society, know I 've read more on this there.
<br>
mike.
<br>
<p>MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>In the
book "The Life of Jim Baker 1818-1898" by Nolie Mumey page 81 In the</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>summer of 1852 Baker received
an invitation from Kit Carson as did 17 other</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>surveying mountain men for
one last hooray and trapping expedition. They</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>left Carson's ranch in New
Mexico and traveled thru North Park and South</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Park, along the South and
North Platte, the Green, Yampa, Little Snake, Wind,</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>Sweetwater and the Arkansas
Rivers before returning to his ranch for some</font></font>
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=-1>good old mountain man contests.
