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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #749 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 01 : Number 749 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá MtMan-List: Saws -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá MtMan-List: Guns in Early America - slightly off topic -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá MtMan-List: pistol& rifle calibers -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá MtMan-List: Hamilton Hutchinson blanket -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:55:02 -0800 (PST) From: Nathan Offutt <srf90@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Documentatation for the sort of items that were actually taken West has gotten pretty good over the past few years. What can be lacking are detailed descriptions and actual surviving examples. That is where, in my opinion, some theorizing is acceptable. Some knowledge of styles and such is very importaint however. The theory some subscribe to that "it is made with correct materials and techniques, so it must be correct" just doesn't hold water. As an example, consider car styles in the last 40 years. the techniques for forming sheet metal into car bodies haven't changed much. Would a 2000 model pickup look out of place if it were transported back to 1960? People from different times are often very different in the details even though their most fundamental concerns are much the same. One area in which modern thinking commonly creeps in is in regards to comfort items. What we need to be comfortable is different from what the mtn. man was accustomed to. It is very easy to think we "need" many items that really are not necessary. Consider what might be neccesary for survival and go from there. >Mights are there but probably's are too. Not just > in the east but in St > Louis (and other settlements) at the stores that > outfitted people heading for > the mtns. The documentation is scant. I still go > with what probably was > available to them and what they very likely would > have used whether it was > "documented" or not. Just my $.02 though. People > aren't that differnt today > than they have always been. Think about it. :o) > > Greg Sefton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:29:10 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3065282950_155423_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Todd, There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions and the bringing up of old arguments which is better than some of the more resent discussions. Stewart was a guest and tagged along with the caravan which was taking trade goods to the 1837 Rendezvous. The wagons,carts and pack annimals were not all for his supplies. I think that most were for Alcohol,Gun powder and goodies to trade for furs. The Fur Co. had high hopes of filling those wagons and carts for the trip back to St.Louis. Now then add the Hudson Bay Co. and the supplies they braught to the area and the competition for the available furs and you have a lot of trade items available. Now the comment about having a persona are right on target, but I got what I wanted from this thread which was to get back to a more meaningful discussion concerning the Fur Trade!. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001, 12:19 PM Hey Ole, So what you're perhaps saying is, if in your portrayal, your "Persona," you happen to be one of the men traveling with Stewart and were one of the privileged few, you had access to all manner of niceties. Or if you were coming in to Rendezvous in the mid to late 30's traveling with the wagons you may have had access to many of the goods aboard? Or, is your point that the wagons carried all sorts of heavier items which were thus available to the average trapper? I must agree that the rendezvous supplied by wagon brought more "stuff," and that the company brigades packed along more of this stuff than the small bands of Free Trappers. That is why I have always felt it important that a re enactor have a developed story or persona which targets who he is. Otherwise the re enactor is tempted to lay claim to anything which crossed the Missouri. If your persona is an 1827 newly hired Ashley man, don't be bandying around exotic goods like canned sardines and when questioned say "Capt Stewart give em to me." Many re enactors (and that's what we all are) shy away from developing a persona. I've heard someone say "I'm a grown man. I don't want to make up some make believe story." I laughed until I had tears. The very fact that he had historical based clothing and equipment on and was strutting around in public was a clear declaration that he was playing a Mountain Man. Yet when asked who he was, he responded "I'm Joe Blow." "What do you do Joe?" "I work for the power company." "Oh, do all people who work for the power company dress like that?" "Oh, ha ha" says Joe " Heck no, this weekend I'm a Mountain Man!" "Excuse my ignorance, but how do you make the transition from lineman to Mountain Man on the weekends?" With the proud smile on Joes face sagging a little he says "Well, I guess what I meant was I play a Mountain Man." "Oh o.k. I'm getting it now. So what time period does this Mountain Man your playing live in?" " Well...ah.. you know...1820-1840. I'm what you might call the Average Mountain Man." "So how old was the average Mountain Man Joe" "You mean Me? or the real Mountain Men" "Well you I guess, I thought you were the average Mountain Man." "Yeah well, I'm 53, but the real average Mountain Man wasn't." "Huh? I'm getting confused. Let's see, if you're 53 and portraying a average Mountain Man between the years of 1820-1840, ahh... let's see, that means you were born between ah.. 1767 to 1787. Is that right?" "Heck No! I ain't that old c'mon!" By this time the sarcastic tourist can see that he is having a battle of wits with and unarmed man and excuses himself saying "Have fun Joe." and while walking off mutters "I didn't know mountain men wore Acme Engineer boots." A simple well thought out persona guides the development of a re enactor and helps allow for certain items to be carried along. Be it part of a rendezvous supply train, a trapping brigade, a band of free trappers, a Bents Fort hunter, a clerk at Fort Union etc. This wasn't meant specifically for you Ole, just some ramblings on a Saturday morning. Now to get some work done. "Teton" Todd D. Glover www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html <http://www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html> - --MS_Mac_OE_3065282950_155423_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF"> Todd, There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions and the bringing up of ol= d arguments which is better than some of the more resent discussions. Stewar= t was a guest and tagged along with the caravan which was taking trade= goods to the 1837 Rendezvous. The wagons,carts and pack annimals were not a= ll for his supplies. I think that most were for Alcohol,Gun powder and goodi= es to trade for furs. The Fur Co. had high hopes of filling those wagons and carts for the trip b= ack to St.Louis. Now then add the Hudson Bay Co. and the supplies they braug= ht to the area and the competition for the available furs and you have a lot= of trade items available. Now the comment about having a persona are right on target, but I got what = I wanted from this thread which was to get back to a more meaningful discuss= ion concerning the Fur Trade!. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001, 12:19 PM <BLOCKQUOTE>Hey Ole, So what you're perhaps saying is, if in your portrayal, your "Persona,= " you happen to be one of the men traveling with Stewart and were one o= f the privileged few, you had access to all manner of niceties. Or if = you were coming in to Rendezvous in the mid to late 30's traveling wit= h the wagons you may have had access to many of the goods aboard? Or, is you= r point that the wagons carried all sorts of heavier items which were thus a= vailable to the average trapper? I must agree that the rendezvous supplied by wagon brought more "stuff= ," and that the company brigades packed along more of this stuff than t= he small bands of Free Trappers. That is why I have always felt it important= that a re enactor have a developed story or persona which targets who he is= . Otherwise the re enactor is tempted to lay claim to anything which crossed= the Missouri. If your persona is an 1827 newly hired Ashley man, don't be b= andying around exotic goods like canned sardines and when questioned say &qu= ot;Capt Stewart give em to me." Many re enactors (and that's what we all are) shy away from developing a pe= rsona. I've heard someone say "I'm a grown man. I don't want to make up= some make believe story." I laughed until I had tears. The very fact t= hat he had historical based clothing and equipment on and was strutting arou= nd in public was a clear declaration that he was playing a Mountain Man. Yet= when asked who he was, he responded "I'm Joe Blow." "What= do you do Joe?" "I work for the power company." "= ;Oh, do all people who work for the power company dress like that?" </I= >"Oh, ha ha" says Joe " Heck no, this weekend I'm a Mountain = Man!" "Excuse my ignorance, but how do you make the transition from linem= an to Mountain Man on the weekends?" With the proud smile on Joes f= ace sagging a little he says "Well, I guess what I meant was I play a M= ountain Man." "Oh o.k. I'm getting it now. So what time period = does this Mountain Man your playing live in?" " Well...ah.. you know...1820-1840. I'm what you might call the Av= erage Mountain Man." "So how old was the average Mountain Man J= oe" "You mean Me? or the real Mountain Men" "Well= you I guess, I thought you were the average Mountain Man." "Y= eah well, I'm 53, but the real average Mountain Man wasn't." "Huh? I'm getting confused. Let's see, if you're 53 and portraying = a average Mountain Man between the years of 1820-1840, ahh... let's see, tha= t means you were born between ah.. 1767 to 1787. Is that right?" &q= uot;Heck No! I ain't that old c'mon!" By this time the sarcastic tourist can see that he is having a battle of wi= ts with and unarmed man and excuses himself saying "Have fun Joe.&qu= ot; and while walking off mutters "I didn't know mountain men wo= re Acme Engineer boots." A simple well thought out persona guides the development of a re enactor an= d helps allow for certain items to be carried along. Be it part of a rendezv= ous supply train, a trapping brigade, a band of free trappers, a Bents Fort = hunter, a clerk at Fort Union etc. This wasn't meant specifically for you Ole, just some ramblings on a Saturd= ay morning. Now to get some work done. "Teton" Todd D. Glover www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html <ht= tp://www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html> </BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> - --MS_Mac_OE_3065282950_155423_MIME_Part-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:30:48 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/17/2001 7:18:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << I've been thinking about it, and I'm not quite sure I see your point about people not being so much different then as now. I keep coming up with the thought that "Yeah if there's a better way then certainly they would have used it if it was available. Whoops, did I just recoin the phrase "If they'd had it, they'd a used it?" Not what I intended. I'd be interested in your list of "Probablies." >> From a logical standpoint, we like things that make life a little easier. We like to show off. We like to impress our friends. So when I'm back from the mountains for a bit and stop by the gen store in St Lou or even at the trade wagon at rendezvous and something that shines catches my eye, chances are, I'll pick it up if I have the cash and it ain't too heavy. To (IMO) ignore that probability probably renders our possibles less accurate (correct if you must) than to require (as some do) 2 documentations for every little geegaw in the camp. Of course this is my personal feeling on the subject and I'm into a more laid back and fun experience that reflects the period, the region, and the mentality of the "players". Your mileage may vary :o). Greg Sefton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:38:02 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Greg wrote : The documentation is scant. I have to disagree. The documentation is not scarce. I suggest you go to Dean's website and click on Archives - Fur Trade Era Business Records. There you will find the records of the goods taken to rendezvous, plus some of the records of what goods were sold to individual trappers. The records of these companies are so valuable because they were not only the companies who took goods to the mountains but were also the ones who were outfitting men leaving St. Louis. They were the ones who were ordering goods to be brought to St. Louis. In effect they were the WalMart, K Mart, etc. of the fur trade era. Also check out the Library link, and read the many diaries and journals of the trappers. There is a true wealth of information to be found there, also. To the personna topic, Guys, figure out what time frame of the Fur Trade most interests you. Then develop a character for that time frame. If your interest lies in the late 1830's, then it is appropriate to carry much more than it would be if you are portraying a earlier figure in the mid 1820's. For instance, there were no cloth items at all carried to the first rendezvous. (Yeah, I know they had them in St. Louis, but they would have been worn out and used up by the time you got to the mountains. ) By the end of the rendezvous era, the fur companies were taking a wide array of goods that were not even available in St. Louis in the early days. I hope this helps. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:37:42 -0500 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Saws In 1831, Samuel Parkman declared a list of trade goods in Santa Fe, New Mexico which apparently belonged to our good friend Jed Smith before he got whacked. Contained in at least one chest were: "1 dozen small saws" "8 large saws" Does anyone have any knowledge of, or care to speculate about, just what kind of saws these might have been? Do you suppose they were the "knock-down" bow saw, which uses 3 pieces of wood made into an H frame and tensioned using a wire or cord, that seem to be suited for notching timbers or bucking firewood? The colonists were rather fond of these saws I understand. Could they have been hand saws or back saws intended for finer woodworking? It seems unlikely that anyone would go to the trouble of carrying trade goods not likely to sell, but it doesn't seem that there was much going in in the way of settlement in this region at the time that would indicate much in the way of construction. Here's a documented item without enough description to be meaningful. I also wonder about the source of these saws. The blades may well be english, but the fabrication could have taken place just about anywhere. I find that sawing is a whole lot more productive than chopping when it comes to gathering wood, but I'm hesitant to make and carry one based on this scant information alone. BTW, Henry Disston founded his company in 1840 so these trade saws couldn't have been any of his. Tom - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:45:44 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/17/1 12:20:02 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes: <<This wasn't meant specifically for you Ole, just some ramblings on a Saturday morning. Now to get some work done. "Teton" Todd D. Glover>> Ramble on, Todd. You done right smart good - as the tarheels would say , a GOOD points. RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:52:23 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/17/1 07:35:05 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> That's what kills it. "Think", "wish", "want" . . . does not constitute history. RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:00:41 -0500 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Guns in Early America - slightly off topic Here's a link to a lengthy but interesting article regarding guns in early America. It seems that someone recently (last year) wrote a book claiming that gun ownership and use was not all that common in the early 1800's. The foolishness of such an assertion is well put to rest by this article. http://www.ggnra.org/cramer/GunScarcity.pdf - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:09:55 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/17/1 08:31:28 PM, BrayHaven@aol.com writes: <<From a logical standpoint, we like things that make life a little easier>> Who can argue with such logic as yours, Greg? Looking at these earlier times we have so many accounts of Indians traveling with virtually nothing but their weapons and a pouch with perhaps dried corn and jerky while their caucasian counter-parts were fairly well loaded down. I always ask the question, "why were these men out in the mountain?" and the most commong answer would be that they came out here to work. This was their livelihood. Now I am going to put aside all the sociology-type and romantic counters to this statement, but they were here because "they lived close to where they worked". Allowing this, they had with them the tools they needed for their work (go ahead and define them to your comfort). I also feel - MY opinion - that as experience-on-the-job began to accumulate they started utilizing more of what nature provided - as did the Indians - rather than to tote so much with them. Now back to your statement. After all the braggin' and boastin' from the toughest of the tough in this bunch, NO ONE has lived straight 17 years in the mountans like Jim Bridger. They couldn't if they wanted. THAT country doesn't exist any more! So we have to tend to our contemporary constitutions as best we can - allow ourselves a little comfort - and if we are honest admit we are not the original buckskin bunch. BUT if we approach it right - realistically - we can enjoy ourselves, have fun and good associations, and come to know a lot more about the "originals" than anyone else living (in our time) because we do have these experiences somewhat similar to history. I pass the hatchet. RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:09:27 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws In a message dated 2/17/01 9:38:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, troberts@gdi.net writes: << Henry Disston founded his company in 1840 so these trade saws couldn't have been any of his. >> Is it possible that Disston was making saws either privately, or as pre-production models prior to his actually founding the company? I often wonder this same thing about stuff made by Dietz, who retained a patent on his lanterns in the very early 1840's. Granted the current design would be different and I know this does not comprise 'documentation', but it sure makes their availability in some form possible, especially back East... Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:51:17 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/18/2001 1:10:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: <> I agree and as I've said, it's merely my opinion that there were probably a number of things used and carried that didn't appear in surviving letters or journals but that's just my opinion. I talk to a number of enthusiasts who agree with it. Many don't and I respect and accept their opinions as valid ones also. I don't feel threatened by a differeing opinion at all. It's a little like religion I guess. Sometimes I meet someone who is deeply religious who asks about mine. When I tell them I'm not religious, some feel insecure and launch into an effort to "convert" me to their way of thinking. I respect their views and am in no way threatened by them. Most of the buckskinning enthusiasts that I talk to are more like me which is a more tolerant and laid back experience trying to capture the flavor and the feel of the time. Others may find that they need to try to change my (and others) mind, and they may someday. As to the mindset of the men in the fur trade. I agree that they came there to work, but, some would have us believe they are like some modern survivalists who shunned all creature comforts out of some macho creed that they could make do with none of the trappings of the settlements. Could be, but if I was there, (which is supposed to be what this is all about, personnas etc) I would have tried to make myself as comfortable as the situation would allow within reason. You respect my "personna", and I'll respect yours :o). Greg - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:52:33 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Greg, You are right on, having spent time working in the Alaskan bush that is exactly the mind set that one has. During the period you have many places to resupply, Bents Fort,Fort Hall, Fort Union,Fort Pierre, Then add in the Rendezvous supply caravan, The Steam Boat Yellowstone, Santa Fee. There were trappers working for other companies than Rocky Mountain Fur Co. and we forget to include them in the mix. Todd is 100% correct you need to pick a persona and a time period and then stick as close as current knowledge will let you. The things that were exceptable 20 years ago have been tempered with new found information and will continue to change in the future. You are also correct there are many that hold there ideals concerning this hobby the same as religious views and will hold on even when reason dictates a change of viewpoint. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: BrayHaven@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! >Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001, 5:51 AM > >In a message dated 2/18/2001 1:10:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, >SWzypher@aol.com writes: > >< question, "why were these men out in the mountain?" and the most commong > answer would be that they came out here to work. >> > >I agree and as I've said, it's merely my opinion that there were probably a >number of things used and carried that didn't appear in surviving letters or >journals but that's just my opinion. I talk to a number of enthusiasts who >agree with it. Many don't and I respect and accept their opinions as valid >ones also. I don't feel threatened by a differeing opinion at all. It's a >little like religion I guess. Sometimes I meet someone who is deeply >religious who asks about mine. When I tell them I'm not religious, some feel >insecure and launch into an effort to "convert" me to their way of thinking. >I respect their views and am in no way threatened by them. Most of the >buckskinning enthusiasts that I talk to are more like me which is a more >tolerant and laid back experience trying to capture the flavor and the feel >of the time. Others may find that they need to try to change my (and others) >mind, and they may someday. > >As to the mindset of the men in the fur trade. I agree that they came there >to work, but, some would have us believe they are like some modern >survivalists who shunned all creature comforts out of some macho creed that >they could make do with none of the trappings of the settlements. Could be, >but if I was there, (which is supposed to be what this is all about, >personnas etc) I would have tried to make myself as comfortable as the >situation would allow within reason. You respect my "personna", and I'll >respect yours :o). > >Greg > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:42:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Schrotter <mail4dog@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: pistol& rifle calibers Dianne, I see several people have written about the size difference in rifle and revolver ball size, but another thing to look at is when would you ever combine a mid `18th century flintlock with a late 19th century revolver? Also, check your local hunting regs, as here in Wyoming you must have .40 caliber or larger to legally hunt big game. I don't know if that is of consideration to you or not. DOG __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:17:44 -0500 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws Barney, Interesting thought. Certainly possible, but I wonder if there would have been enough quantity to supply the trade. I'm inclined to believe that the frame saw is more probable than the hand saw since the blade is much narrower. I'm thinking that good steel was premium, and that the ability to tension the blade makes up for the lack of stiffness inherent in a wider saw. Thanks for your thoughts, hopefully some others will comment as well. Tom LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/17/01 9:38:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, troberts@gdi.net > writes: > > << Henry Disston founded his company in 1840 so these trade saws couldn't > have been any of his. >> > > Is it possible that Disston was making saws either privately, or as > pre-production models prior to his actually founding the company? I often > wonder this same thing about stuff made by Dietz, who retained a patent on > his lanterns in the very early 1840's. Granted the current design would be > different and I know this does not comprise 'documentation', but it sure > makes their availability in some form possible, especially back East... > Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:41:51 -0700 From: "David A. Miller" <dammiller@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:09:55 EST SWzypher@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 2/17/1 08:31:28 PM, BrayHaven@aol.com writes: > > > .........Now back to your statement. After all the braggin' and boastin' > from the toughest of the tough in this bunch, NO ONE has lived straight 17 > years in the mountans like Jim Bridger. They couldn't if they wanted. THAT > country doesn't exist any more! So we have to tend to our contemporary > constitutions as best we can - allow ourselves a little comfort - and if we are > honest admit we are not the original buckskin bunch. BUT if we approach it > right - realistically - we can enjoy ourselves, have fun and good > associations, and come to know a lot more about the "originals" than anyone else > living (in our time) because we do have these experiences somewhat similar to > history. > I pass the hatchet. > RJames > Why do we have to "Allow ourselves a little comfort"? If we are to re-enact, shouldn't we do things that were done during the time period from which we are depicting? I grew up on indians reservations, and have learned all kinds of things, and gained all kinds of experiences... but does that constitute me an expert on the indian way of life? I may understand a FEW things better than some, but I am no more an expert, than my son (of 10 years) is an expert of astrology, just because he likes to read a book on the subject now and again. we need to remember to study and practice what we learn. Trial and error based on documented information, in the company of other TRUE historical re-enactors, is the best way to learn to live the old way. Not to try and BETTER the old way through our modern conviences. Sorry... off the soap box, and back in the shadows I go.........l.. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:05:23 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! David wrote : we need to remember to study and practice what we learn. Trial and error based on documented information, in the company of other TRUE historical re-enactors, is the best way to learn to live the old way. Not to try and BETTER the old way through our modern conviences Very well said David ! Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:52:53 -0500 From: "Two Crows" <dbrown@wavegate.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Hamilton Hutchinson blanket Came home today with a find from an antique store in Ellijay, Georgia. A medium wieght 3.5 point red wool trade blanket with one black stripe. Label on it says Hamilton Hutchinson Indian Point Blanket, Guaranteed All Wool, Made in England. Anybody ever seen one of these before??? Two Crows David Brown & Kristin Poulsen Wollendael 4419 Gore-Subligna Rd. Summerville, GA 30747 "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - --Benjamin Franklin 1759 dbrown@wavegate.com http://www.2crows2.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:12:25 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! In a message dated 2/18/1 11:42:31 AM, dammiller@juno.com writes: <<Why do we have to "Allow ourselves a little comfort"? If we are to re-enact, shouldn't we do things that were done during the time period from which we are depicting?>> Well - if you don't want to be comfortable - don't, then. However you will never convince me that these men were out here with a target of suffering. There is sure no evidence of austerity or straight-laced denial in the records we have of rendezvous. They were just people. Some were literate, some were not. Some drank. Some were religious. Now give me a reference for one or a group that were opposed to a little comfort.????? RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:32:02 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws Tom & Barney, We return to questions for which there are no hard answers. I can dispel some misconceptions before his thread gets out of hand with=20 idle speculation. Most of this information is from Smith's Key to Sheffield Manufactories=20 1816, NO ---THERE IS NO ISBN. First frame saws were not only made as "buck" saws which you reference=20 below they were also made with fine blades "turning saws" and were the=20 period equivalent of bandsaws capable of intricate work. Some blades wer= e=20 very thin and only a few inches long, some were heavy and 7 feet=20 long. Other framed saws include hacksaws, coping saws and fret saws whic= h=20 were all known. Smith's key illustrates 5 styles of amputation saws, "Pruning Knives",=20 "Sportsmans Knives", and "Knives with Instruments" had saws which folded=20 into the handle of pocket combination tools. Cork screws, awls, hoof=20 picks, gimbrels, augers, punches, fleems, needles and other tools were=20 common additions. Some had both large and small knife blades. There is=20 quite a variety illustrated, no they do not look like Swiss army knives,=20 they do resemble some later pieces I've seen from Sheffield and=20 Soligen. I've seen no evidence any were traded in the mountain west. My opinion is that if one wants to carry exotic tooling/accessories today= =20 it should be an original of or before the period. Originals are very rar= e=20 hence the probability of one being there then is about the same as=20 now. Reproductions of uncommon items conveys a false perspective as to=20 what was. Circular saws 4" to 36" were catalogued, pit saws, span saws, compass saw= s,=20 specialty saws for veneer and ivory work, mill saws, cross cut saws and a= =20 lot more were commonly available in Europe and the Eastern cities. Hand saws (similar to Disston's light patent saws) up to 30" were well=20 known as were panel saws, gentleman's saws, grafting saws, dovetail saws,= =20 carcase saws, sash saws and tenon saws; most offered in a variety of size= s=20 many in both rip and cross cut toothing. What did Jedidiah Smith have in his chest? I don't know. Joseph Smith=20 (the engraver not the prophet) proves that Parkman didn't tell us much. Unless someone who knows something about tools can examine the chest and=20 write a monograph we will never know. Photos, engravings, paintings or=20 sketches would be nice, I don't know of any availability of same. John... At 12:37 AM 2/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >In 1831, Samuel Parkman declared a list of trade goods in Santa Fe, New >Mexico which apparently belonged to our good friend Jed Smith before he >got whacked. Contained in at least one chest were: > >"1reamen small saws" >"8 large saws" John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< <http://www.kramerize.com/> mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:07:37 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting! Richard James wrote : Now give me a reference for one or a group that were opposed to a little comfort.????? Your point is well made. As has been said before, those guys did for a living what we do on weekends for fun. They suffered hardships on a daily basis that would put most of us down for the count. I don't think any of us are suggesting we should go out and try to kill ourselves in the name of historical authenticity, I know I'm not. The trick is to find what 'comforts' were available in our own individual time period, and learn how to use them in the ways that our forefathers used them. If we don't, then we are just enjoying ' dress up camping'. For some that's what it is, and that's OK. When my wife goes with me to club rendezvous etc., that's what we are doing, but let's not claim that what is there is how it was in the mountains. In my opinion, that just isn't right. That's how the term "Rendezvous Myth" came to be. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:15:13 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest) Hardtack's method is the most cost effective. If you really want an original: Best price I've found: http://www.azcoinsfortwayne.com/us_currency.html $335.00 I have found pricing from $500 for VG condition to $4000 for GEM CU. http://www.currencyuniverse.com/prices/frame.chtml?filename=Legal%20Tender%20and%20Treasury%20Notes%20%281861%2D1923%29 John... At 10:33 PM 2/15/01 -0800, you wrote: >Magpie, do what I always do....print it...<g>...I used good photo >paper..... will hang it next to my pics of Lewis & Clark on my living >room wall...... hardtack > >Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie >O'Donnel fat? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. -- Hitler, April 11 1942, revealing the real agenda of "gun control" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #749 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.