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hist_text-digest      Saturday, February 17 2001      Volume 01 : Number 748



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Boy Scouts Need Help
-áááááá MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber
-áááááá MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife
-áááááá MtMan-List: WAS Boy Scouts NOW Mtn skills
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:58:17 -0600
-áááááá MtMan-List: Interesting!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:17:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show

Lee
Sounds like a good gathering.  I'd really like to go at least once, but this
doesn't give me a chance to plan.  If they do it again and you get a chance
to let us a little bit earlier, I would appreciate it.  If they decide to do
it again in nicer weather, I would appreciate it even more.  I've never
visitied that area and would like to see it under the most favorable
circumstances.

Most Sincerely

Richard James

P.S. Gunshow in Ogden this week-end and one in Pocatello next week end.

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:52:09 -0600
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Boy Scouts Need Help

It was on the NMLRA listing of events at Friendship for 2001.
<SNIP from NMLRA.ORG>   =20
October 26-28, 2001  Boy Scout Jamboree--entire range. Anyone interested =
in helping or putting on a demonstration=20
Contact: Richard Andrews 317-283-3746.   =20
<end SNIP>
Last year at the spring nationals, I was on the pistol range, and there =
was a leader teaching a bunch of kids to shoot.   That was great.   Lot =
of troops are way too concerned with being politically correct to teach =
responsible shooting.




> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:09 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Boy Scouts Need Help
>=20
>=20
> > Yeah, but I did see that the BSA is holding a Jamboree at the range =
at=20
> > Friendship this year.
>=20
> Todd,
> Do you have any more info on this?  Is the NMLRA hosting it, or=20
> is it just a=20
> camporee.  The Jamboree is a national event held every 4 years at=20
> Ft. A.P.=20
> Hill, VA.
> Perhaps they could use another volunteer.  I've got the time and the=20
> inclination.
>=20
> Dave Kanger
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:12:53 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (Jon Marinetti)
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)

Actual United States Legal Tender Note from 1901 (has a Bison at the
center).

www.frbsf.org/currency/industrial/legal/533.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Michigan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:32:10 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife

Has anyone seen references to Jedediah Smith having an Indian wife named
Mary?  I'm trying to track down the source of that.  I have found two
different folks spouting that date to the 1860s.  Neither is related to Smith
so it doesn't appear to be a family story.  Anyone that might know of other
sources, please let me know.

Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
P.O. Box 1228
Quincy, CA  95971
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] FAX
[e-mail]

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:25:21 -0800
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show

Richard

The folks from Mountain Top Trading Company, Tony and Judy Roberts, just
purchased the rights to this show and plan to keep at it and even expand it some
next year.  As their webguy, and frequent visitor to their coffee pot, I was
drafted as cheap labor for this show, and suspect Tony will do the same again
next year.  Guess that makes me both cheap and easy<G>.  Anyway, for planning
purposes, next year's show is set for 16-17 Feb of 2002.

Nice weather?  Not recently, leastwise not around here.  Becky and I are headed
north to Coeur d'Alene tomorrow in my four wheel drive equipped with everything
needed to survive Idaho's bloody hiway 95 for three days.  2-3 inches of snow
today, forcast of about 6" of snow tommorrow.  Have chains will travel.

Regards from frozen North Idaho!

Lee Newbill

> [e-mail] wrote:
> Sounds like a good gathering.  I'd really like to go at least once, but this
> doesn't give me a chance to plan.  If they do it again and you get a chance
> to let us a little bit earlier, I would appreciate it.  If they decide to do
> it again in nicer weather, I would appreciate it even more.  I've never
> visitied that area and would like to see it under the most favorable
> circumstances.


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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:36:02 -0800
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Idaho Craft & BP Show

Sorry folks.... that last email was supposed to go as a personal note.

Lee Newbill



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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:19:06 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)

In a message dated 2/15/01 6:13:36 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Actual United States Legal Tender Note from 1901 (has a Bison at the
center).

www.frbsf.org/currency/industrial/legal/533.html
 >>

Where could a guy get a note like that? I gotta have one....

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:33:18 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark $10 Bill (item of interest)

Magpie,    do what I always do....print it...<g>...I used good photo
paper..... will hang it next to my pics of Lewis & Clark on my living
room wall......   hardtack

Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
O'Donnel fat?

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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:14:34 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber

I should have been more specific with my initial post but I didn't have time
before I had to run out the door!

I have a Euroarms Remington on order, which specifies a 0.451 ball. I used
to have a US-made cap & ball revolver and I loved shooting it. (I have
regretted selling it ever since!) I know that the revolver I used to have
sheared off a little ring of lead as the ball is pressed home. And yes, I
always greased the open ends of the cylinder - I did NOT want to experience
a chain fire!

The .45 flintlock that I am considering is from Pedersoli and also specifies
0.451 round ball - which would be very convenient!

My only hesitation is that I already have a .54 Hawken and I don't like
shooting it because of it's recoil - I find it MUCH harder on my shoulder
than my 1894 Marlin 45-70 with heavy loads. With the Marlin I can
consistently outshoot any man (yuk yuk) all day long but than damned Hawken
tries to turn my shoulder to hamburger and that really hurts my accuracy.

Sooooo, that's why I was thinking of dropping to .32 in a flintlock. Going
to .45 is a bit bigger than I was planning on but the supplier has a .45 on
order. If I want to go with a .32, I have to tell them TODAY!!! (So E-mail
me direct if you've got something important to aid in my decision!)

I look forward to getting a flinter that doesn't abuse me too much - the
more comfortable it is to shoot, the better my shooting will be, and I
REALLY want to come down there and embarrass all you Yanks when you're
out-shot by an old mixed-blood woman!

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:59:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Revolver & rifle caliber

In a message dated 2/16/2001 8:28:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I look forward to getting a flinter that doesn't abuse me too much - the
 more comfortable it is to shoot, the better my shooting will be >>

This is a very good criteria for you to look at.  As a modern gunsmith I
often talked people out of heavy recoil rifles that I knew they didn't need
and would cause flinching etc.  Many later came back & thanked me for
barreling that rifle in a milder (but still adequate) caliber and reported
their shooting was better and more enjoyable.  The .45 is a much milder
recoil with a rd ball than a 54,  The 45 ball weighs @ 125 gr and the 54
about 230.  this with a much heavier charge I would say makes the 45 about
half the recoil of the 54.  This would depend on the weight of the gun and
the felt recoil can be affected by the width of the but plate, comb design,
drop at heel, barrel length and a number of other factors.  The 32 is barely
adequate for squirrels though as a hunting rifle :o).  I have a 32,.40, 45, &
50 that I love to shoot but am building a new .45 flint as a good balance
between comfort and power.  I also like the Green Mtn twist of 1 in 60 of
their 45 barrels.
just my .02

Greg Sefton

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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:42:08 -0500
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams

Hello the camp,

I need input/opinions on two things.

First, would a "rum horn" fit into a 1835 trappers persona?

Second, I have two 5' X 10' pieces of canvas I need to sew together for a
diamond shelter.
Anyone have any experience with which type seam is most water resistant?
While on the subject, is a diamond shelter historically correct or is it an
accepted modern idea?

         Thanks,
            Tim
[e-mail]


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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:28:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Nathan Offutt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams

You might consider just making a simple tarp. No need
for loops and such. that way it can be set up to fit
the camp site vs adapting the site to fit the shelter.
i believe that the dedicated diamond shelter is a
buckskinner invention, but it is easy to set up a tarp
that way. In that case, should not pose any
authenticity problems in even the most hard core camp.
If you are carrying it on your back and using it by
yourself, 10x10 is perhaps a little on the large side.
8x8 is plenty and every fraction of a lb you don't
have to carry helps. As for seams, a flat felled seam
was commonly used to construct clothing and other
cloth items. It seems to work fine keeping the water
out (at least as well as can be expected from such
things). Hand sewing an 8ft seam took me about half a
day, if you want to go that route.
- --- Tim Jewell <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Hello the camp,
>
> I need input/opinions on two things.
>
> First, would a "rum horn" fit into a 1835 trappers
> persona?
>
> Second, I have two 5' X 10' pieces of canvas I need
> to sew together for a
> diamond shelter.
> Anyone have any experience with which type seam is
> most water resistant?
> While on the subject, is a diamond shelter
> historically correct or is it an
> accepted modern idea?
>
>          Thanks,
>             Tim
> [e-mail]
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:02:57 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Jewell" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams


> Hello the camp,
>
> I need input/opinions on two things.
>
> First, would a "rum horn" fit into a 1835 trappers persona?

Hey Tim,

This is just my opinion for what it's worth. I would think that a rum horn
or similar probably is not very likely something that 1835 trappers had with
them. Rum and ardent spirits were taken to Rendezvous and certainly traded
there and at various Forts but from what I have read, trappers did their
drinking at such locations and went away to dry out. If they did carry rum
and such, it would seem that it was carried in small casks. As to having a
rum horn, go for it. I doubt any group of latter day lush's you run into
will turn down a pull from your "rum horn". <G> Including me. In fact I'll
give you a sip from my flask.


<Second, I have two 5' X 10' pieces of canvas I need to sew together for a
diamond shelter.
Anyone have any experience with which type seam is most water resistant?

A flat felled seam works good but you can get by with a simple overlap (like
a shingle), double stitch line. The critical element is how tight the stitch
holes and whether the seam is sewn with natural fiber thread that will swell
with the canvas. As to the whole of the project, wash and shrink the fabric,
sew it up with whatever seam you like, treat it if you care to. I'm finding
that the lime and alum treatment that came out of George Washington Sear's
book on "Camping and Wood Craft" works well though it does not make the
canvas water repellent, just keeps the water from dripping through. The
canvas will get wet.



<While on the subject, is a diamond shelter historically correct or is it an
accepted modern idea?

Probably an accepted modern idea. There doesn't seem to be much comment in
journals of trappers setting up shelters with canvas except that which was
carried to Rendezvous and perhaps by expeditions and by "rich" tourists.

I hope that helps. I'm heading out in a few minutes for a winter camp. I'll
be thinking of you all while I set by the fire tonight under my "diamond"
shelter. <G>

Capt. Lahti'

















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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:45:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife

In a message dated 2/15/1 07:33:23 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<Has anyone seen references to Jedediah Smith having an Indian wife named
Mary? >>

Sources:
The West of Wm Ashley
2 Journals of Smith
Genealogical Library - LDS Church Salt Lake City, Utah

No mention of any spouse.
RJames

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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:23:48 -0700
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife

Jim,


Interesting. I have never heard any reference to Jedediah having possibly
been married. I have done quite a bit of study on Jed, as I known you
have, and I just can't imagine when he could have gotten married. Not
before he left for the mountains...possibly before he left for Santa Fe?
Some Honeymoon! Hey, maybe he married a younger sister of  Jose Maria
Echeandia! That's why the Governor didn't like him! Anyway, a good
question and on the topic, thanks for posing it.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:20:03 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams

> <While on the subject, is a diamond shelter historically correct or is it
an
> accepted modern idea?


In one of the Book of Buckskinning, the "diamond shelter" is listed, and it
shows several ways of setting it up so that it protects the user against the
elements...  I believe they said it was an "old" idea...  I'll find the book
and look it up...

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV




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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:18:15 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rum horns and canvas seams

>While on the subject, is a diamond shelter historically correct or is it
> an accepted modern idea?

Ok... the Book of Buckskinning II has a chapter devoted to shelters, however
nothing is mentioned about diamond flys. I believe it wasin Book I that it
was covered very well... and of course, that is the only one I can't find.
Heh... my wife says she picked it and Book VI up and put them away.... can't
remember where... *sigh*  In Book II, is does say though, that the "lean to"
is a mocern design, and refers to the Baker and Whelan styles... page 234.

Ad Miller
Alderson, WV


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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:28:14 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's wife

Jim,
    Do they say which tribe his wife might of been from? I don't see any
records of him having any children, let along a wife, but it is possible. He
did have (I think) three brothers in the west at the same time, see "The
Beginning of the West", Louise Barry, Kansas State Historical Society.
But many men had "wives" in the west, but weren't around to help raise
the off springs. Might be good to trace the lineage, compare with dates and
areas that he traveled in. Could be. I get about three inquires a month on
people tracing their famous ancestors and some are legit.
                                                mike.

[e-mail] wrote:

> Has anyone seen references to Jedediah Smith having an Indian wife named
> Mary?  I'm trying to track down the source of that.  I have found two
> different folks spouting that date to the 1860s.  Neither is related to Smith
> so it doesn't appear to be a family story.  Anyone that might know of other
> sources, please let me know.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM #1676
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA  95971
> [phone] (H)
> [phone] (W)
> [phone] FAX
> [e-mail]
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:03:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Boy Scouts NOW Mtn skills

In a message dated 2/14/01 10:37:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I gave the inspirational message at the opening campfire of one of the
 regional subcamps.  If "snowflakes" ring a bell with you, then that was me.
 I survived Hurricane Bob that year too.
  >>

If it was the Southeast Regional camp, then I was there for it!!!  Still got
ashes from that campfire I have been waiting to add to another special event
campfire! (old tradition - or am i the only one who does that?!?)  I remember
standing under a big piece of plastic sheeting with about 50 other boys when
the worst of Hurrican Bob blew through!!!  It was a total blast!!!  After all
these years, it is time to give back some of what I got!!!  Slowly and
surely, I am doing that.  The skills I learned in Scouts will serve me well
as I begin to trek and primitive hunt!!! That is where I learned I could live
with what the Good Lord provided in the woods and not too uncomfortably if I
kept my wits and took stock of my resources!!!  I know that many of the
skills that the mtn. men developed and handed down made their way
person-to-person over the years to me!!! Would be interesting to know the
"person-line" from myself back to any of those intrepid souls as they passed
along their knowledge!!!

- -C.Kent

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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 06:58:04 -0700
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:58:17 -0600

Test.
Lanney Ratcliff


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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:23:54 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting!

Hello the Camp!
I did a litle reserch looking at drawings made by Alfred Jacob Miller in the
book "the West of Alfred Jacob Miller" what I found was this.
Page 76 intitled "Threatened Attack" I counted 10 wagons or 2 wheeled carts.
Also one of his colored drawings titled "Caravan en Route" I counted 14
wagons or 2 wheeled carts.
Page 177 titled "Our Camp" shows 4 Wagons and 7- 2 wheel carts, it also
shows 2 wedge tents.
The carts were called "Charettes".
Page 149 titled "Mirage" shows 3 Wagons, it also shows a man leading 2 pack
animals.
The drawins show both Carts and Wagons with canvas covers.
Also in the notes on page 177 it states that they formed a circumferance of
500 t0 600 feet with there wagons and carts being about 30 feet apart if
this is accurate there would have been 17 to 21 vehicles.
This would not include pack animals.
Talk about hauling freight, how much would the trappers have traded for
there next seasons? and taken to there winter camps?.
YMOS
Ole # 718

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:51:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

In a message dated 2/17/1 09:27:34 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  . . . . .if this is accurate there would have been 17 to 21 vehicles.
This would not include pack animals.
Talk about hauling freight, how much would the trappers have traded for
there next seasons? and taken to there winter camps?.>>

And that was just for Wm. Drummond Stewart to haul his bath tub, an arsenal
of grand weapons, hams, brandied peaches, and a list of "more" longer than
your arm . . .
RJames


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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:19:44 -0700
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

This message is in MIME format.  Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ----__JNP_000_5954.5aac.2bb4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey Ole,

So what you're perhaps saying is, if in your portrayal, your "Persona,"
you happen to be one of the men traveling with Stewart and were one of
the privileged few, you had access to all manner of niceties. Or if  you
were coming in to Rendezvous in the mid to late 30's  traveling with the
wagons you may have had access to many of the goods aboard? Or, is your
point that the wagons carried all sorts of heavier items which were thus
available to the average trapper?

I must agree that the rendezvous supplied by wagon brought more "stuff,"
and that the company brigades packed along more of this stuff than the
small bands of Free Trappers. That is why I have always felt it important
that a re enactor have a developed story or persona which targets who he
is. Otherwise the re enactor is tempted to lay claim to anything which
crossed the Missouri. If your persona is an 1827 newly hired Ashley man,
don't be bandying around exotic goods like canned sardines and when
questioned say "Capt Stewart give em to me."

Many re enactors (and that's what we all are) shy away from developing a
persona. I've heard someone say "I'm a grown man. I don't want to make up
some make believe story." I laughed until I had tears. The very fact that
he had historical based clothing and equipment on and was strutting
around in public was a clear declaration that he was playing a Mountain
Man. Yet when asked who he was, he responded "I'm Joe Blow." "What do you
do Joe?" "I work for the power company." "Oh, do all people who work for
the power company dress like that?" "Oh, ha ha" says Joe " Heck no, this
weekend I'm a Mountain Man!"
"Excuse my ignorance, but how do you make the transition from lineman to
Mountain Man on the weekends?" With the proud smile on Joes face sagging
a little he says "Well, I guess what I meant was I play a Mountain Man."
"Oh o.k. I'm getting it now. So what time period does this Mountain Man
your playing live in?"
" Well...ah.. you know...1820-1840. I'm what you might call the Average
Mountain Man." "So how old was the average Mountain Man Joe" "You mean
Me? or the real Mountain Men" "Well you I guess, I thought you were the
average Mountain Man." "Yeah well, I'm 53, but the real average Mountain
Man wasn't."
"Huh? I'm getting confused. Let's see, if you're 53 and portraying a
average Mountain Man between the years of 1820-1840, ahh... let's see,
that means you were born between ah.. 1767 to 1787. Is that right?" "Heck
No! I ain't that old c'mon!"

By this time the sarcastic tourist can see that he is having a battle of
wits with and unarmed man and excuses himself saying "Have fun Joe." and
while walking off mutters "I didn't know mountain men wore Acme Engineer
boots."

A simple well thought out persona guides the development of a re enactor
and helps allow for certain items to be carried along. Be it part of a
rendezvous supply train, a trapping brigade, a band of free trappers, a
Bents Fort hunter, a clerk at Fort Union etc.

This wasn't meant specifically for you Ole, just some ramblings on a
Saturday morning. Now to get some work done.


"Teton" Todd D. Glover
www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bottomMargin=3D0 leftMargin=3D3 rightMargin=3D3 topMargin=3D0>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hey Ole,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So what you're perhaps saying is, if in your portrayal, your "Persona,=
" you=20
happen to be one of the men traveling with Stewart and were one of the=20
privileged few, you had access to all manner of niceties. Or if  you =
were=20
coming in to Rendezvous in the mid to late 30's  traveling with the =
wagons=20
you may have had access to many of the goods aboard? Or, is your point that=
 the=20
wagons carried all sorts of heavier items which were thus available to the=
=20
average trapper? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I must agree that the rendezvous supplied by wagon brought more "stuff=
,"=20
and that the company brigades packed along more of this stuff than the =
small=20
bands of Free Trappers. That is why I have always felt it important that a =
re=20
enactor have a developed story or persona which targets who he is. =
Otherwise the=20
re enactor is tempted to lay claim to anything which crossed the Missouri. =
If=20
your persona is an 1827 newly hired Ashley man, don't be bandying around =
exotic=20
goods like canned sardines and when questioned say "Capt Stewart give em to=
=20
me."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Many re enactors (and that's what we all are) shy away from developing=
 a=20
persona. I've heard someone say "I'm a grown man. I don't want to make up =
some=20
make believe story." I laughed until I had tears. The very fact that he had=
=20
historical based clothing and equipment on and was strutting around in =
public=20
was a clear declaration that he was playing a Mountain Man. Yet when asked =
who=20
he was, he responded "I'm Joe Blow." <EM>"What do you do Joe?" </EM>"I work=
 for=20
the power company." <EM>"Oh, do all people who work for the power company =
dress=20
like that?" </EM>"Oh, ha ha" says Joe " Heck no, this weekend I'm a =
Mountain=20
Man!"</DIV>
<DIV>"<EM>Excuse my ignorance, but how do you make the transition from =
lineman=20
to Mountain Man on the weekends?" </EM>With the proud smile on Joes face =
sagging=20
a little he says "Well, I guess what I meant was I play a Mountain Man." "<=
EM>Oh=20
o.k. I'm getting it now. So what time period does this Mountain Man your =
playing=20
live in?"</EM></DIV>
<DIV>" Well...ah.. you know...1820-1840. I'm what you might call the =
Average=20
Mountain Man." "<EM>So how old was the average Mountain Man Joe"</EM> "You =
mean=20
Me? or the real Mountain Men" <EM>"Well you I guess, I thought you were the=
=20
average Mountain Man." </EM>"Yeah well, I'm 53, but the real average =
Mountain=20
Man wasn't."</DIV>
<DIV>"<EM>Huh? I'm getting confused. Let's see, if you're 53 and portraying=
 a=20
average Mountain Man between the years of 1820-1840, ahh... let's see, that=
=20
means you were born between ah.. 1767 to 1787. Is that right?" </EM>"Heck =
No! I=20
ain't that old c'mon!"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By this time the sarcastic tourist can see that he is having a battle =
of=20
wits with and unarmed man and excuses himself saying <EM>"Have fun Joe."</=
EM>=20
and while walking off mutters "<EM>I didn't know mountain men wore Acme =
Engineer=20
boots."</EM></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A simple well thought out persona guides the development of a re =
enactor=20
and helps allow for certain items to be carried along. Be it part of a=20
rendezvous supply train, a trapping brigade, a band of free trappers, a =
Bents=20
Fort hunter, a clerk at Fort Union etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This wasn't meant specifically for you Ole, just some ramblings on a=20
Saturday morning. Now to get some work done.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>        </DIV>
<DIV>"Teton" Todd D. Glover<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html">www.homestead.=
juno.com/tetontodd/index.html</A><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:11:38 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

'Teton' Todd wrote :
A simple well thought out persona guides the development of a re enactor and
helps allow for certain items to be carried along. Be it part of a
rendezvous supply train, a trapping brigade, a band of free trappers, a
Bents Fort hunter, a clerk at Fort Union etc.


Well said Todd,
  If a person takes the time to develop a personna and carries the gear that
a person of that station in life would have carried, then he/she presents a
much more believeable character.  For most of us it is much easier to
concentrate on carrying what the common man had, but that certainly limits
what we carry, and that is a personal choice.
  Another benefit of developing a personna is that when tayloring one's gear
in that direction you avoid spending a tremendous amount of money on stuff
that in later years will end up in a closet gathering dust.  I have
certainly been guilty of that.  Hell, I've given away enough stuff away to
outfit a fair sized brigade.
   Those who contend that if it was available in the east then it might have
been in the mountains, are only fooling themselves and the new folks who are
camping with them.  There is a saying that, " 'mights' are on a hen's butt,
and they are real hard to find."  The documentaion of what is or isn't
appropriate is out there.  A tremendous amount of it is on Dean's website.
All one has to do is take the time and effort to go get it.

Pendleton


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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:56:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

In a message dated 2/17/2001 4:09:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Those who contend that if it was available in the east then it might have
 been in the mountains, are only fooling themselves and the new folks who are
 camping with them.  There is a saying that, " 'mights' are on a hen's butt,
 and they are real hard to find."  The documentaion of what is or isn't
 appropriate is out there.  A tremendous amount of it is on Dean's website.
 All one has to do is take the time and effort to go get it. >>

Mights are there but probably's are too.  Not just in the east but in St
Louis (and other settlements) at the stores that outfitted people heading for
the mtns.   The documentation is scant.  I still go with what probably was
available to them and what they very likely would have used whether it was
"documented" or not.  Just my $.02 though.  People aren't that differnt today
than they have always been.  Think about it. :o)

Greg Sefton

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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:12:40 -0700
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Interesting!

Greg,

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not quite sure I see your point
about people not being so much different then as now. I keep coming up
with the thought that "Yeah if there's a better way then certainly they
would have used it if it was available. Whoops, did I just recoin the
phrase "If they'd had it, they'd a used it?" Not what I intended.
I'd be interested in your list of "Probablies."

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
www.homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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