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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #722 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, January 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 722 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson & BC -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! -áááááá MtMan-List: Jaeger article -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:55:03 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Buck wrote: Larry, Larry, Larry, I love it when you finally just flat tell it how it is, only kidding brother. Buck, I really appreciate the info. As I stated earlier, one can never say never. I didn't imply that Mr. Sefton could not carry a short stater nor would I. I was only stating what I felt was the common practice of the day, and your research shows that there were few short starters in use. Once again, it seems that I have crawled from under my rock, raised my head, and started a flame war. Don't quite know why that always happens. Maybe I'm just an a abrasive old fart. I don't know. I do know that when terms like 'arrogant elitist' get used, just because I or someone else is following what he believes is historically correct, I get real grouchy , real quick ! For that, I appologize. It just seems to be my nature. So, I will go back to lurking on the list, for now. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:12:55 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters - ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters > Rog' > Well Said.. And for the most part, I bow to the master... Although you are > a helluvalot more diplomatic and nice when you say it..<G> Thanks D but I must say I like Todd's style too. <G> Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:40:02 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/1 07:38:49 PM, BrayHaven@aol.com writes: << I know some people who simply quit participating in the organized gatherings (rendezvous) because of stupid rules imposed by some idealogical bushway who was imposing his personal opinions on the participants. To me, if it's period correct, it's fine... period. Just my $.02 as well. >> This is a point of contention that goes back to the earliest times in AMM. The pity of it is that we don't have an official, absolute definitive statement or policy to put this thing to rest. We have lots of inferred statements and interpretations. and nearly as many opinions as we have members but someday we are going to have to have this settled from an official level if we are ever to put the beast to rest. Now having said this - let the contradictions flow. But it deserves resolution Most Sincerely Richard James hvnro #79 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 15:26:47 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof All this over a question about the authenticity of using a short-starter???? I asked myself two questions: 1. When will this bickering end?? 2. Why am I wasting my time reading this childish drivel? Then I got my answer. Buck Conner's description of the William Potts hunting bag and all its contents more than rewarded me for the time spent to this point. This is the kind of "stuff" that pops up rather infrequently but is the reward for ongoing research that gives us our little "warm fuzzies". Thank you Buck! R. James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:44:33 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail I agree. - - Ethan - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 1:15 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail > I have to agree with John Allen. The whole subject of what the > mountaineers > did after the decline of the fur trade is always treated with general > statements. > When in fact, they did alot of things. In my area, some settled down and > ranched. > Others operated toll roads, transported freight, guided for individuals and > the army, > some ran for political office. Many did live well after the the end of the > rendezvous. > They just changed their profession. We think of our hobby as neat stuff, > but for them, > it was work. (If you were a trapper or involved in a fur company.) A few > switched to > hunting buffalo for their hides and tongues. And we always seem to forget > the ones > who just went back east and blended into the crowd. Or west further west to > settle > and try to make their fortune there. > mike. > > Victoria Pate wrote: > > > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:52:08 -0800 Randal J Bublitz > > <randybublitz@juno.com> writes: > > > > > Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890. > > > > Ethan, Mr. Bublitz is referring to those > > were able to survive. Many MM lost > > their lives during the Fur Trade Era. > > > > Victoria > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:45:38 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail That's true... was dangerous... - - Ethan - ----- Original Message ----- From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 12:04 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail > > > On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:52:08 -0800 Randal J Bublitz > <randybublitz@juno.com> writes: > > > Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890. > > Ethan, Mr. Bublitz is referring to those > were able to survive. Many MM lost > their lives during the Fur Trade Era. > > Victoria > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:18:41 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson & BC In a message dated 1/28/1 11:08:33 AM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: <<but the reason i said suposed remains is that in the grave that he was placed in california they sometimes double stacked the coffins and to the best of their knowledge they did have his remains----the kids financed his removal and rebuarial if i am not mistaken and robert redford was also there------>> Hawk. I thank you for the opportunity to clear up some of the points here. Just from this one instance it is so easy to see how history gets re-written. No wonder the debate goes on about short starters. But back to Johnston . . . John was burried in a Veterans' cemetary. My own father is in that same cemetary so I have had a number of occasions to visit there and talk with the staff. By 1900 when John died, that was a well established cemetary - Federal - and while coffins may have (were) sometimes stacked in earlier times and in more remote areas, this was not the case here. John had been buried in a redwood coffin - fabric lined. When they removed his remains (74 years later), they removed all the bones then the remains of the coffin, cloth, leather, buttons and finally the layer of dirt and all that lay beneith - presuming that some of John was percolated down to become a part of it. ALL this material was included in the re-burial. The skeleton was complete with just a little damage to the jaw bone. It was a BIG skeleton. It was John. As you said, the project was undertaken by a group of (7th Grade) students and their teacher. It was all at their own expense until there was so much notariety and then the airlines gave them free passage home. Robert Redford was there. He had a front handle to carry the coffin (I had the other) and he was very gracious and outgoing about the whole affair. Most Sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:50:10 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > I really appreciate the info. As I stated earlier, one can never say > never. I didn't imply that Mr. Sefton could not carry a short stater nor > would I. I was only stating what I felt was the common practice........ Glad you liked or maybe remembered the article from awhile back, got to see the rifle and shooting bag in Colo. Springs, CO a few years ago and even got to try the bag on, age does have its privileges - right. Mr. Davis, the current owner of both the rifle and the shootin' bag had an interesting story on the purchase. He was contacted about the Potts rifle by a friend in Norristown, PA that the little lady that owned it was going to a rest home and wanted it to go to someone that cared about such things. Mr. Davis is a well known collector back East and made the trip from the New England states to PA and setup a visit with the lady in question. Anyway to make this short, they agreed upon a price for the rifle; then she says do you want the purse that's been with it ? He inquires of what the purse is and what it contains, the shooting bag, WOW what a find. He said she wanted to just give it to him, after looking it over he told her "he just couldn't take it", ended up paying more for the bag than the gun, she was happy and Mr. Davis said he got a hell of a deal. Another item of interest was the fishing kit, of which I sent pictures and content information to Goose Bay Workshops for the case and also Paul Jones of Clark & Sons as he's a period fishing supplier, for future product reproduction for us. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:51:10 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > All this over a question about the authenticity of using a short-starter???? > > I asked myself two questions: > 1. When will this bickering end?? > 2. Why am I wasting my time reading this childish drivel? > > Then I got my answer. Buck Conner's description of the William Potts hunting > bag and all its contents more than rewarded me for the time spent to this > point. This is the kind of "stuff" that pops up rather infrequently but is > the reward for ongoing research that gives us our little "warm fuzzies". > Thank you Buck! > > R. James Thanks Dick, that means mucho from you. Buck - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:08:13 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters > I know one man who found he could hit better with a double patched .58 > round ball in his smoothbore .62 trade gun than a "proper" load in his > rifle. So that's what he carried on the trail. Must have worked; he > didn't starve to death. It got him across the desert and through the > mountains. John, Thanks. In thinking about what this fella found he could do with a double patched .58 in his .62 makes perfect sense to me from what I have found in my shooting. And this is just an aside to the other good points you make. I find that a .60 ball over a cushion wad, and under a card wad shoots real well. Actually better than a patched ball and as your fella found almost as good if not as good as a rifle gun. What I think he and I found out is that it is hard to seal a "proper" sized ball in a smooth bore with a patch alone. My wad seals the powder blast behind that "proper" sized ball and that fella's double patch makes it possible to push a "tightly" patched ball down a smooth bore. Those double patches have enough compression room so they will go down and still make for a good seal coming out. Kinda like what we were talking about with straight rifled "smooth bores". Gives you room for the patch when you push a well patched ball down. Not nearly as easy to do with a strictly smooth bore so you can't get the seal you need. See what I mean? And of course my wads wouldn't last me but a short time in the woods with no prosects of resupply. Double patching an otherwise undersized ball is an easy way to achieve good accuracy with a smooth bore a long ways from town. I think I'll give that small ball/double patch a try. > Studying the little left to us in journals and records of what was; is only > where we start learning. If we ignore that and add all the conveniences > that nearly 200 years of tinkering can devise we don't really learn how it > was or what is really just superfluous gewgaws. Right on. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:30:36 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! In a message dated 1/28/2001 11:45:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, Casapy123@aol.com writes: << But the piece de resistance is the fur-lined commode in the back. It even has a removable chamber pot! They had them in the East so seeing them in the rockies should be no surprise, eh? >> Works for me :o). There are those among us who think the Mt man shunned any creature comforts, no matter how trivial, that were available in the settlements because no one chose to write about them. Maybe due to his macho image of himself :o) right. I wouldn't have been one of them. If I saw something on my trip to St Lou that would make my life easier in the mtns without adding much to my pack, I probably would have brought it back up with me. Don't know about the fur lined potty, but maybe that nice pair of toenail clippers or that new hat etc. Maybe even get me one o them new caplock rifles over at Jake & Sams gun shop. Impress the boys back there in the mtns with those. History buffs of periods where there are huge shortages of documentation should keep open minds. I do when I listen to another's opinion, along with the basis for it. I've modifed mine in many cases where that other opinion seemed to better founded than mine. Discussions and exchange of ideas are one of the ways these things can be sorted out logically. Closed minds rarely learn anything. Greg Sefton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:45:31 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters Buck, Couldn't agree with you more. I doubt anyone here feels they are infallible much less a "list guru" as has been suggested. The point missed was that no one is telling anyone what they can and can't do. Exception is only taken with a "gentleman" suggesting rather pointedly that "elitists" exist here for the soul purpose of telling others what they can and can't do. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is gratuitous "name calling" and belongs on the elementary school play ground. But alas, some folks are so wound up in their own perceived persecution that they can't see beyond it. Once they have backed themselves into that corner there is no graceful way to get out other than an apology for having been mistaken or simply misunderstood which for some is damned hard to accomplish. Or continuing to mouth the same irrelevant attack. Sad. Capt. Lahti' > Hey Capt., > > After all the talk about this subject, "yes there where" and "no there weren't > short starters", (as I sit looking at a Gun Collectors sales book) look at cased > rifles, shotguns, pistols, etc., damn many have short starters and where made > before 1800 ??? But there's no paperwork saying they came with this cased > weapon, there's a place for it or was something else to go in that spot !!! > > But like we all have stated where's the documentation ? Here we go again Ole. > > And by the way this discussion has nothing to do with who or whom your a member > of, I'm am AMM, NRA, and Lenape and can be as wrong or go off the wrong > direction as easy as the next guy, we're all just trying to find good > documentation to try and be more correct/period/etc. for our own personal > persona or understanding. > > Later, > Buck Conner > Research page: > http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ > Personal page: > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:52:46 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! BrayHaven@aol.com wrote: > History buffs of periods where there are huge shortages of documentation should > keep open minds. I do when I listen to another's opinion, along with the basis > for it. I've modifed mine in many cases where that other opinion seemed to > better founded than mine. Discussions and exchange of ideas are one of the > ways these things can be sorted out logically. Closed minds rarely learn > anything. > > Greg Sefton Like Greg has stated about "History buffs of periods where there are huge shortages of documentation should keep open minds." Some of the old timers like Dick James and yours truly can remember being shot out of the saddle or ideas more than once when Charley H. or Curly G. where around, one was bad enough - but together they where a walking history library and had no problem setting things straight, whether friend or foe. These two could sure clear the air, everyone would stop talking and listen when they spoke. You had better have your references correct, documentation correct and dot the "i" and cross the "t's". Right Dick. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:15:33 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" <frankf@centurytel.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Jaeger article ` I should have specified, please write me off-list for the article. Also I have found that some ISPs will not handle a message with seven attachments. I will send to you in seven separate e-mails, each with one page attached. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:32:45 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! > Man would that have been the life, ye should make such a setup for the next > Western Jim and Lanney can do the cookin'. Buck, Talk about a money maker! Raffle chances to spend the week thus "kept"! Hurraah for Mountain Duin's! <G> Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:29:56 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C08926.058A82E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable **** READ THIS LINE:=20 Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small = handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small = turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round = balls. On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch = / overall length butcher knife.=20 This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to = 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are = used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. = Note things like bullet molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are = items cached or left at his residents in the=20 settlements.=20 Buck, Excellent post and material I recall reading on your web site or some = place else before. A man would not be far wrong to copy this gentlemans = gear and methodology. It is obvious from the material here that "some" = woodsmen used a short starter. Or at least carried one in anticipation = of occasional use (just to hedge our bets here <G>). It would be = interesting to know what cal. rifle he used so as to better guess = whether his short starter saw regular work as necessary for normal = loading of his gun. It's location in a back pocket suggests otherwise.=20 There is the matter of relating this information which applies to a = "woodsman" in "backwoods" colonial states/territory to what might apply = to a "trapper" working the Plains or Rockies for furs or trade. I think = many of us hesitate to accept the common use of a short starter in those = latter era's and Westerly locations because of a lack of "comment" to = such use and antidotal evidence suggesting the use of much looser = loadings. "They were so close you could see the blanket patches coming = from their muzzles" (battle of Pierre's Hole). Or the practice of = running buffalo. Or the simple impracticality of having to adhear to = such a tight load in the field so far from resupply in time and = distance. My common sense tells me short starters were not often seen if = at all. Others might choose a different view. Capt. Lahti' Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong attached = to an adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches = with 3-1/2 X 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) = sulfer matches, container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small = handforged single jaw trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 = inches, (3) bees wax candles wrapped in linen cloth, (1) small wooden = salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, and (1) 2 piece turkey wing bone call.=20 This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to = 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are = used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. = Note things like bullet molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are = items cached or left at his residents in the=20 settlements.=20 Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of not = using tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his = ability to get close to game.=20 = - ----------------------------------------------------=20 Later,=20 Buck Conner=20 Research page:=20 http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__=20 Personal page:=20 http://pages.about.com/buckconner/=20 ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _=20 =20 =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C08926.058A82E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> **** READ THIS LINE:=20 Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, = small=20 handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with = small turn=20 screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. = On the=20 back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch / overall = length=20 butcher knife.=20 This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 = to 1815=20 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are used, = every=20 item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. Note = things like=20 bullet molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are items cached = or left=20 at his residents in the settlements. Buck, Excellent post and material I recall reading on your = web site=20 or some place else before. A man would not be far wrong to copy this=20 gentlemans gear and methodology. It is obvious from the material here = that=20 "some" woodsmen used a short starter. Or at least carried one in = anticipation=20 of occasional use (just to hedge our bets here <G>). It would be = interesting to know what cal. rifle he used so as to better guess = whether his=20 short starter saw regular work as necessary for normal loading of his = gun.=20 It's location in a back pocket suggests otherwise. There is the matter of relating this information = which applies=20 to a "woodsman" in "backwoods" colonial states/territory to what might = apply=20 to a "trapper" working the Plains or Rockies for furs or trade. I = think many=20 of us hesitate to accept the common use of a short starter in those = latter=20 era's and Westerly locations because of a lack of "comment" to such = use and=20 antidotal evidence suggesting the use of much looser loadings. "They = were so=20 close you could see the blanket patches coming from their muzzles" = (battle of=20 Pierre's Hole). Or the practice of running buffalo. Or the simple=20 impracticality of having to adhear to such a tight load in the field = so far=20 from resupply in time and distance. My common sense tells me short = starters=20 were not often seen if at all. Others might choose a different = view. Capt. Lahti' Contents in front pocket: (1) 3 hole bullet board with thong = attached to an=20 adjustable powder measurer, (1) small oval tin 3 X 4 X 3/4 inches with = 3-1/2 X=20 1 inch striker, (3) flint flakes, tow, tin of char, and (6) sulfer = matches,=20 container again lined with brained deer hide. (1) small handforged = single jaw=20 trap [muskrat], wooden cased compass 2 X 2 X 7/8 inches, (3) bees wax = candles=20 wrapped in linen cloth, (1) small wooden salt barrel 3/4 X 2 inches, = and (1) 2=20 piece turkey wing bone call.=20 This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 = to 1815=20 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are used, = every=20 item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. Note = things like=20 bullet molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are items cached = or left=20 at his residents in the settlements.=20 Something we found interesting in his journal was the mention of = not using=20 tobacco, feeling that the odor from such activity would hamper his = ability to=20 get close to game.=20 = &nbs= p; =20 ---------------------------------------------------- Later, = Buck=20 Conner Research page: <A=20 = href=3D"http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/<= /A>=20 _______HRD__ Personal page: <A=20 = href=3D"http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckco= nner/</A>=20 ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ = </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C08926.058A82E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 18:29:54 -0700 From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls Hello the list, Well, that was interesting (trying to document short starters, that is)! Reading the original jouranals, we frequently read of the trappers pulling the balls from their rifles, cleaning them and then reloading. Firing the ball out would be wasteful of lead, noisy in dangerous environments, etc. What success has anyone had pulling balls that are extremely tight (read that, "hammered in")? Not trying to re-kindle the fire that just burned down......just curious. Thanks, Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:39:06 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls > What success has anyone had pulling balls that are extremely tight (read > that, "hammered in")? Allen, Once the tight balls are started, they are bore size and you can ram them home as easily as any other. That's why target shooters use false muzzles to "start" their balls. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:00:05 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pullin' Balls Allen wrote: What success has anyone had pulling balls that are extremely tight (read that, "hammered in")? >>Not very much. It can be done, but only with a nonprimitive ramrod, and even then I have seen some that had to have the breech plug removed to get them out. Not trying to re-kindle the fire that just burned down......just curious >> Yeah you are. <GG> Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 19:19:15 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof - --------------10637CAFF2F0BE802E1EFEC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger Lahti wrote: > > > > **** READ THIS LINE: > > Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow > ticking-.012 thickness, small handmade bottle of > cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with > small turn screw and vent pick, brained deer > hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. On the back > of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 > inch / overall length butcher knife. > > This is very interesting that such a small pouch > of the day - 1787 to 1815 is so compact and only > the needed items to perform his tasks are used, > every item was needed in his daily survival and > gathering of game. Note things like bullet > molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are > items cached or left at his residents in the > settlements. > > > > Buck, > > Excellent post and material I recall reading on > your web site or some place else before. A man > would not be far wrong to copy this gentlemans > gear and methodology. It is obvious from the > material here that "some" woodsmen used a short > starter. Or at least carried one in anticipation > of occasional use (just to hedge our bets here > <G>). It would be interesting to know what cal. > rifle he used so as to better guess whether his > short starter saw regular work as necessary for > normal loading of his gun. It's location in a > back pocket suggests otherwise. > > There is the matter of relating this information > which applies to a "woodsman" in "backwoods" > colonial states/territory to what might apply to > a "trapper" working the Plains or Rockies for > furs or trade. I think many of us hesitate to > accept the common use of a short starter in > those latter era's and Westerly locations > because of a lack of "comment" to such use and > antidotal evidence suggesting the use of much > looser loadings. "They were so close you could > see the blanket patches coming from their > muzzles" (battle of Pierre's Hole). Or the > practice of running buffalo. Or the simple > impracticality of having to adhear to such a > tight load in the field so far from resupply in > time and distance. My common sense tells me > short starters were not often seen if at all. > Others might choose a different view. > > Capt. Lahti' > Thanks Capt., As for cal or gauge of the Potts rifle it was hard to tell as it had a tapered muzzle, which brings another question - why have a short starter ! Here we go again... Mr. Davis felt that the owner, Mr. Potts would use the short starter when the gun was getting dirty, remember powder was expensive and of short supply at times, so every shot had to count and the chances of pulling a ball in the wilds was questionable at best. We felt it was a 45 cal. originally, maybe 47 cal. now with the tapered muzzle and possible refreshing of the bore which was common on many of the early guns as the metal wasn't of the greatest quality. Mr. Potts being a supplier of meat I would think would keep the sound of shooting to a kill only thing, trying not to alert animals or unfriendlys within ear shot. I'm sure the moisture of PA would also help with fouling buildup after a few days of shooting, again requiring a short starter even with the tapered muzzle. When ending his week of hunting and coming in to the settlements he would clean his rifle is what Mr. Davis figured, because of the condition of the bore (dark in color, but not pitted that bad for its age. Pretty neat information from just one gun and it's shooting bag with contents, look what we have all been privileged to learn because of Mr. Davis and his wonderful find. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - --------------10637CAFF2F0BE802E1EFEC5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Roger Lahti wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style> <blockquote dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </div> **** READ THIS LINE: Contents in back pocket: roll of pillow ticking-.012 thickness, small handmade bottle of cleaner, small short starter, flint wallet with small turn screw and vent pick, brained deer hide ball bag-20 /.435 round balls. On the back of the back pocket is a rawhide sheath with a 10 inch / overall length butcher knife. This is very interesting that such a small pouch of the day - 1787 to 1815 is so compact and only the needed items to perform his tasks are used, every item was needed in his daily survival and gathering of game. Note things like bullet molds, ladles, lead bar, pipes-tobacco, etc. are items cached or left at his residents in the settlements. Buck, Excellent post and material I recall reading on your web site or some place else before. A man would not be far wrong to copy this gentlemans gear and methodology. It is obvious from the material here that "some" woodsmen used a short starter. Or at least carried one in anticipation of occasional use (just to hedge our bets here <G>). It would be interesting to know what cal. rifle he used so as to better guess whether his short starter saw regular work as necessary for normal loading of his gun. It's location in a back pocket suggests otherwise. There is the matter of relating this information which applies to a "woodsman" in "backwoods" colonial states/territory to what might apply to a "trapper" working the Plains or Rockies for furs or trade. I think many of us hesitate to accept the common use of a short starter in those latter era's and Westerly locations because of a lack of "comment" to such use and antidotal evidence suggesting the use of much looser loadings. "They were so close you could see the blanket patches coming from their muzzles" (battle of Pierre's Hole). Or the practice of running buffalo. Or the simple impracticality of having to adhear to such a tight load in the field so far from resupply in time and distance. My common sense tells me short starters were not often seen if at all. Others might choose a different view. Capt. Lahti'</blockquote> </blockquote> Thanks Capt., As for cal or gauge of the Potts rifle it was hard to tell as it had a tapered muzzle, which brings another question - why have a short starter ! Here we go again... Mr. Davis felt that the owner, Mr. Potts would use the short starter when the gun was getting dirty, remember powder was expensive and of short supply at times, so every shot had to count and the chances of pulling a ball in the wilds was questionable at best. We felt it was a 45 cal. originally, maybe 47 cal. now with the tapered muzzle and possible refreshing of the bore which was common on many of the early guns as the metal wasn't of the greatest quality. Mr. Potts being a supplier of meat I would think would keep the sound of shooting to a kill only thing, trying not to alert animals or unfriendlys within ear shot. I'm sure the moisture of PA would also help with fouling buildup after a few days of shooting, again requiring a short starter even with the tapered muzzle. When ending his week of hunting and coming in to the settlements he would clean his rifle is what Mr. Davis figured, because of the condition of the bore (dark in color, but not pitted that bad for its age. Pretty neat information from just one gun and it's shooting bag with contents, look what we have all been privileged to learn because of Mr. Davis and his wonderful find. Later, Buck Conner Research page: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> _______HRD__ Personal page: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ </body> </html> - --------------10637CAFF2F0BE802E1EFEC5-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #722 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.