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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #720 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, January 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 720 In this issue: -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá MtMan-List: Reply to BrayHavens retort -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Straight Edge Razor -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Straight Edge Razor -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:35:11 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Dennis wrote: . I think I will pull out my copy of the "Muzzleloading Caploack Rifle" and see what Ned Roberts had to say on the subject of patchs and short starters. Dennis, Mr. Roberts refers to 'short starters' on many occasions in his book, but nearly all of it deals with the time period that was much later than the Fur Trade Era. Much of The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle deals with the building and shooting of guns in the post Civil War Era. In fact most of it is in the 1880 to early 1900's international shooting matches when false muzzles and other such accoutrements were used. He also talks about the use of paper patched bullets, including conicals. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:36:16 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters > Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday > life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that > there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney Well, Barney, you sure took less space to say it than I did! <G> Well said too! Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:33:56 -0600 From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Amen. There is NO proof they were used. There is plenty of proof = other things were used. I'm also not in the AMM but I appreciate, = understand, and agree with the idea of trying to recreate as best we = can. And that includes NOT using things that can't be documented. =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > LivingInThePast@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 5:22 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 1/27/01 3:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 > BrayHaven@aol.com writes: >=20 > < doesn't use... is=20 > elitist arrogance and not really based on fact. >> >=20 > Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items.=20 > It's the=20 > same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this:=20 > where's the=20 > beef? I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't=20 > produce an=20 > artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all. =20 >=20 > Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace=20 > in everyday=20 > life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the=20 > fact that=20 > there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:41:00 -0700 From: Todd Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Reply to BrayHavens retort BrayHaven, You bring up the age old argument again. We are trying to approach some degree of authenticity here. I know it often sounds as if we've approached the edge of ridiculousness. We apply a set of rules to help us focus our interpretation. If we went by some of the logic you offer, things would be wide open to to anyones interpretation. We've often used the terms "Period Correct," "Historically Correct," "Commonly Used," etc. Many more "Period Correct" items were available in the States or in Europe than in the mountains. In that instance, it depends on what persona you are portraying. The question here began as "Did the Mountaineers use short starters?" You're correct in that maybe some did bring some along. Some of us just want to know if it was ever written about (Documented) or not. That's important to some. Some time ago I cooked up an idea I call the "Historical Detector." It's like the metal detectors used in airports. You put on all of your gear and then walk through. Does the alarm sound? If so, why? Examine your gear and clothing and try to decide what it was that set off the alarm. A plastic button? Some artificial sinew? Some Chrome tanned leather? Then try to eliminate one thing at a time. Eventually you'll eliminate 90% of the offenders, and be left with the other 10% that you've decided to live with, ie modern medicines, prescription eyeglasses or contact lens etc. If you're offended because some purists want to question every little thing, well...get used to it or you'll have to find a new pursuit. I decided long ago not to freely express my opinion about anyones gear or outfit unless it was brought up in general conversation, or some new fellow walked up with his thumbs stuck in his red elastic suspenders which are holding up his chrome tanned Levis, while he's peering out from under a tall redfox hat and through modern sunglasses and blowing his Marlboro in my face and proudly asks "How do ye Like my outfit?" Then I would delicately and tactfully broach the subject. If he seems to genuinely want to know, I'll continue. Wouldn't want to offend someone outright and chase them out of the hobby. Shoot he probably is a staunch supporter of gun rights, same as me! Happy Trails "Teton" Todd D. Glover - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:44:49 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Barney wrote: Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney Barney, Again, well said. One thing that I think sometimes get lost is, what is a very simple thing for us to create, would not have been simple at all for the man in the wilderness. For instance, we don't think a thing about replacing the tip on a ramrod, but how simple would that have been using only what a man of the time would have had in his possibles. The same holds true for a short starter. Yeah, it could have been done, but it darn sure wouldn't have been a 10 minute job. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:43:16 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/2001 10:23:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, yrrw@airmail.net writes: << Mr. Sefton, Who is being more arrogant, those who use first person accounts of history as documentation, or those who choose to ignore them in order to justify anything they choose to take to their 'porky-do' events ? Pendleton >> Good question, or would it be those who label an "event" or a person knowing nothing about it or them. Just because someone didn't write about it. What percentage of the trappers (do you think) wrote and published journals? Who are you to tell someone that the item they have which was available in the east at the time or before was never in the mountains during that period? That sir, is arrogance. You prove it wasn't there!! As we've also found, many of these "first person accounts were significantly embellished to ehance the stature of the "historian" What do you do with the conflicting "first person accounts" duh...? It's this kind of attitude that turns people off to these events. Greg Sefton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:00:35 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters In a message dated 1/27/2001 10:41:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << ." They might have. But for some strange reason they didn't. >> If you say it, it must be true.:o) I still stand by my statements based on 35 years of black powder shooting, reading and researching the mt Man era, and hanging around these things from Yellowstone to the Everglades. How you can say that an item available in a shop in St louis never got to the mountains is (kidding yourself and anyone who will buy that BS). Who makes these rules you keep talking about and why are they so subject to interpretation? They should be hard and fast if they are to be obeyed and played by in this fantasy game. Greg S. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:27:13 -0600 From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:42:48 -0800 "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Capt. > > As per usual you have hit the nail squarely on the head ! Good > job ! > > >> > Pendleton, > > Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am > here for. > <G> Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail. > Capt. Lahti' Oh, but such a pleasant hammer and nail............and thumb! <G> Victoria > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:36:41 -0800 From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Mr. Sefton, First off, probably about the same percentage of men in the Rocky Mountains could read and write as could back east. Yes some of the first person accounts were undoubtedly embelished, but not what the average hunter carried on his person. True, there were very few of them who wrote and published journals, but the same holds true for the hunters back east. Second, you can never say never about anything. What many of us try to do is carry what was commonly used, and what we can say for sure was there. For instance, cleaning jags were used back east where gunsmiths who could turn them on a lathe were available. They were refered to as 'wash eyes'. I've not found any documentation of them in the mountains, but tow worms were a common trade item. And last, who am I to tell you what you can or can't carry to a doins ? Hell, I ain;t anybody, as long as you don't show up at a doins I'm putting on, and I would never criticise you for anything you brought to a 'open to the public' doins. In the final analysis Sir, it's obvius that the "If they'd a had it they'd a used it" mentality is deeply embeded in you, and frankly I couldn't give a 'rat's ass' what you think. And that sir, is my final words on the subject. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:40:07 -0500 (EST) From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Straight Edge Razor Wynn,I just got one for Christmas Its not as hard as it looks I basically just follow want I'd seen in movie's on how to hold it and such then adapted that to what was comfortable for me have't even nicked my self yet! Although I must admit I'm a bit timid around my throat and have had trouble getting a close shave in that area (don't want it to close!) A movie that come's to mind with a shaving scene is "The Untouchables" w/ Sean Connery Theres a scene where a barber Shaves Al Capone I'm sure there are plenty of other movies with such scene's. Also you might try asking your local Barber! After your done splash on some Witchhazal ( real men don't use that girly good smell'n stuff) and your good to go! Also don't for get a strophe to keep it nice and sharp! Happy cut.. ..er..... shaving! I Remain M.A. Smith P.S And for goodness sake don't use that horrible canned Shave Cream get a good brush and mug!!!! Badger Bristles are best! M. "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:05:17 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters > << ." They might have. But for some strange reason they didn't. >> > > If you say it, it must be true.:o) Greg S. I can't prove they did. Can you? In a purely scholarly discussion of what was and wasn't, can you show that they were carried? That is what is going on here. A purely scholarly discussion. Neither I nor LP or any one else involved in this discussion gives a rats ass if you carry a short starter. And none of us who put on rendezvous for our enjoyment gives a horses pitutty if you do or don't want to follow our "rules" for such an event. I doubt you will find an event where your short starter isn't welcome. But what rules there are will be respected or don't come. Your attitude will not be missed. I still stand by my statements based on > 35 years of black powder shooting, reading and researching the Mt. Man era, > and hanging around these things from Yellowstone to the Everglades. So with all this vaunted experience and research you have your going to show where such was carried? So all this makes you some kind of expert? I doubt you have half the credentials of a dozen or so members of this list. How you > can say that an item available in a shop in St. Louis never got to the > mountains is (kidding yourself and anyone who will buy that BS). OK, so you have documentation that short starters were available in shops in St. Louis and further more were sold to trappers, etc. and carried west? Or are you just blowing smoke? And if you will pay attention I will say it one more time. I have not said that they didn't use short starters. I and others have pointed out that there is no evidence that they did. Big difference. If you care about the difference. Who makes > these rules you keep talking about and why are they so subject to > interpretation? They should be hard and fast if they are to be obeyed and > played by in this fantasy game. That's exactly what it is. A fantasy game. With some rules. Different rules in different levels of the game. Different rules for some individuals that they hold themselves. As has been said several times now, no one here gives a rip whether you use a short starter or not. The rules are made by the players. They are subject to interpretation when the players agree that something isn't proven. If you want them hard and fast then you put on your own event, make the rules and make them hard and fast. We're just here to talk about what was and wasn't done. We're not here making rules for any one but us. I don't know what else I can add to this discussion that can make it any clearer to you. And I don't know what else you could say that will change my impression of your thought process's. So with that I will give you the last word if you need to have it. Capt. Lahti' > > Greg S. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 22:07:07 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof > > Oh, but such a pleasant hammer and > nail............and thumb! <G> > > Victoria Dear Lady, You flatter me to blush again. <G> YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:49:08 -0500 From: tom roberts <troberts@gdi.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Greg, In any endeavour, there are various levels of seriousness. Many are comfortable with the position that if something was available anywhere in the year they portray that it "could have" been carried to where they portray to be, and that's okay for them. Some folks want to have hard evidence that an item was used at the time and at the location they portray, and will go to great effort to seek that proof. If one is really serious about their gear being correct, there's just no substitute for hard evidence. All the rationalization, wishful thinking, etc., adds up to nothing without evidence. There are folks who care a great deal about being correct that are not 100% there, but they are doing their level best to get there. My very limited understanding of short starters leads me to believe they are necessary only if the patch/ball/barrel combination is so tight as to be undriveable any other way. Who needs to shoot that tight? Competition shooters perhaps, but the average fellow out looking for a meal or hoping to save his hide? I think he would be much more interested in how quickly he can reload, and this is only my opinion. I may be luckier than some, but I've never had the misfortune to be victimized by "stupid rules imposed by some idealogical bushway who was imposing his personal opinions", even at events held by those who hold "correct" in the highest regard. I have, on occasion, received some pleasant, privately delivered, advice for which I've been very grateful. Tom BrayHaven@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/27/2001 6:23:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > > << Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the > same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the > beef? I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an > artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all. > > Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday > life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that > there's no documentation. Just my $.02. Barney >> > > Well if there's documentation that it existed back east at the time and the > MM came from there, who's to say the item was never in the mountains? If we > are to participate in this make believe and act out our fantasy, I can be a > free trapper if I want. I can have anything in my possibles that was > available at the time and be as correct as anyone. Capn mentioned "doing it > just like the old timers" OWTE. Who are we kidding? We shoot rifles of > modern chrome molybdenum steel made on electric equipment and CNC machines, > we drive to the rendezvous in big A/C rigs and unload our plunder and walk > back from the parking area. We sleep in tents made of machine woven canvas, > Meat (for the most part) from the market. We have our medications, our Dr > scholls insoles etc. We haven't had a real scalping or masacre here in FL in > several years at least. On & on etc. > What bugs me is someone who smugly states that a piece of equipment isn't > "correct" because he didn't see it in any of his books. Who is to say that I > didn't bring this item with me to the mountains? There is probably far more > that we DON'T know about that 25 year period than we DO. Many of the > trappers went, as Lahti says, as part of brigades run by dictatorial tyrants > but many of those became free trappers. Many also went home after 1 season. > From what I can tell from my limited Mt Man library (25 volumes or so) is > that a major reason for staying was the fredom from a very controlling and > often puritanical society back east, or the law. Of course the motive was > also greed. They were independednt and resourceful (or they didn't live very > long). I think the burden of proof for whether something that was available > in the period (or before) is appropriate should be on the critic. He should > be required to proove that item (fire irons, short starters, suspenders or > whatever) never was used in the mountains during the Mt Man era rather than > the person who uses it having to prove it was. I know some people who simply > quit participating in the organized gatherings (rendezvous) because of stupid > rules imposed by some idealogical bushway who was imposing his personal > opinions on the participants. To me, if it's period correct, it's fine... > period. > > Just my $.02 as well. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 01:20:57 -0600 From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters Capt., Plumb eloquent, can't say you hit your thumb once. But just to dig another rut in the trail. I know one man who found he could hit better with a double patched .58 round ball in his smoothbore .62 trade gun than a "proper" load in his rifle. So that's what he carried on the trail. Must have worked; he didn't starve to death. It got him across the desert and through the mountains. Too often we lose sight of the practical aspects of what we do. What we learn by the doing is at least as important as what we learn from books and obscure records. We don't learn much from those who only poke holes in paper. How does it work on the ground, everyday? That is some different. Rendezvous is for fun, feasting and camaraderie. It used to be the primary opportunity we had to learn and share what we had learned. Public gatherings are for fun and to relive the more rewarding aspects of debauchery as was back then. What works for a weekend or a week is far different than what works when you live for extended periods in the wilds and depend on your knowledge, gear and skills for your life and livelihood. Studying the little left to us in journals and records of what was; is only where we start learning. If we ignore that and add all the conveniences that nearly 200 years of tinkering can devise we don't really learn how it was or what is really just superfluous gewgaws. Those who already know better seldom learn more. John... At 07:35 PM 1/27/01 -0800, you wrote: >I don't have any illusions that I can answer "all the questions about waht >was used and what wasn't" any better than you. And you certainly haven't >addressed my comments with what you offered in return. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:48:20 -0500 From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters Rog' Well Said.. And for the most part, I bow to the master... Although you are a helluvalot more diplomatic and nice when you say it..<G> D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <zaz@pop.pacificnet.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic Hi Dennis, (Sorry to the list.) Wanted to e-mail you off line and kept coming back. Could you contact me off line. Thanks, Jerry Zaslow ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________ At 06:48 AM 01/28/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Rog' > Well Said.. And for the most part, I bow to the master... Although you are >a helluvalot more diplomatic and nice when you say it..<G> >D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:16:04 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof In a message dated 1/27/2001 11:36:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, yrrw@airmail.net writes: << In the final analysis Sir, it's obvius that the "If they'd a had it they'd a used it" mentality is deeply embeded in you, and frankly I couldn't give a 'rat's ass' what you think. >> Pendleton, Why must a rational discussion turn into an argument? When someone offers another opinion, you certainly don't enhance your credibility with statements like the above also used by the adorned guru of this list (every list seems to have one). Those posters are usually deferred to as the "resident experts" who are showered with praise no matter what they say, and I will defer to them as well here. I learned long ago not to swim upstream. I have simply been stating my position that more latitude should be given in the area of accoutrements based on probability in the absence of very scant documentation.. To say that men threw their cleaning jags (they had used all their lives) in the river when they got on the flatboat is probably not realistic. For instance: I recall in the 60's "buckskinners" all were convinced that every mountain man in the fur trade era carried a Hawken rifle. Lately the "documenters" say there is no documentation that there was ever a Hawken used in the mountains during this era. This statement shows a lack of common sense. To say because there is no documentation, it would be incorrect to take a Hawken to a "regimented event" would probably do more injustice to history than not. The high probability of Hawken use should suggest their presence. ( nearly 50 were made during this period and there is documented commercial interaction between the shop and those heading to the mountains) The fact that very little is actually written about the guns (of the trappers), which most agree is the most necessary and prized possesion, can also suggest that even less (or none) attention in writings was paid to other trappings. Of course some common sense must be applied here. In the strict and ridgid "if it wasn't written, then they didn't use it" mentality, there is also room for historical error. I've seen some tiny shred of a mention of something being hailed as a carte blanche justification for it's widerspread use. If someone wrote in a letter home that they watched ole Gabe take his constitutional and wipe his ass with a spruce branch, our intrepid documentarian shouts AHA! : spruce branches become THE preferred toilet "paper" of the mountain man. Greg Sefton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 10:31:58 EST From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Straight Edge Razor Greetings the List: I've been using a straight edge razor off and on for about 10 years. The intervals during the past decade when I haven't used one have been when I have been wearing a beard. It really is my 'preferred' way to shave. Shaving around the throat really doesn't bother me. There are a couple of precautions I do take. I don't shave when wifie is in the bathroom. I'm always concerned that she might bump up against me and since the razor is kept so sharp that any slight unplanned lateral movement of the blade assures an undesired cut. Secondly, in the mornings when I shave, there are times when I am still stumbling from sleep and am apt to drop anything including the razor. The handle to the razor is so small compared to my hand that I make it a habit to always shave while wearing a robe for fear of dropping the razor and to avoid any resultant slices that might occur down below. I agree with the other writer, get yourself a good brush and shaving soap. When I go camping, I take my razor and shaving soap. For a strophe, I dress up the inside of my belt with strophe dressing, a wax, then suspend it from an eye level branch through the buckle. It works well for razors. I've tried the technique with knives but it doesn't seem to work as well for some reasons. I'm thinking that it might be due to the quality of the steels used in razors vs knives or that this is a technique that is suited for a knife of similar dimensions as that of a razor. Any thoughts on this? In any case, shaving with a straight edged razor is a heck of a lot more fun than the other methods. It can return some pleasure to a task that perhaps for the majority of us has become a boring cultural expectation. It is surprising how close one can shave with the 'knife'....closer than any other method.....for sure. The best to you....flea - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:37:46 -0700 From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof - --------------D9E24C2C1BBC12C050B7A040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > The problem is finding the > > primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs. I can't > > remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before, > > but I'm sure it was a German word. > > Dennis, > Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain the documentation do not > reside in this country, are printed in foreign languages, and are unavailable > to common folk such as us. World traveled authors who are multi-lingual seem > to dig them out. The footnotes are from arcane sources in said countries. > What you have stated about the written word Dave (documented proof), it is true that much of it is in other lands, Charles Hanson's wife was a school teacher - belonging to the International Teachers Assn. Many of the items at the Museum of the Fur Trade where purchased from estate sales in other countries through her connection with this group, as well as copies of documentation on different articles related to the fur trade. Example: Members of the ITA (not sure of the correct name) knew of the Hanson's museum, would hear of an estate sale that they may be interested in and contact Charley, in turn he would contact the auctioneer's and get a list of the items, if anything of interest, he would have the wife contact the retired teacher in that area to go to the sale and bid on items that they (the Hanson's) where interested in, put a price they would pay and a figure set for the teachers time. Many small items where purchased that way over the years that are on display now for all of us to enjoy. The same with the documented copies he had in his library, like Dave said the biggest problem was getting them into a language that he could read. Good point Dave, remember the wealthy would come here in the early years to hunt, travel and paint what they saw, and then share with their country men when returning home, some of the best Native American collections are in Europe. Later, Buck Conner Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - --------------D9E24C2C1BBC12C050B7A040 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>> The problem is finding the > primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs. I can't > remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before, > but I'm sure it was a German word. Dennis, Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain the documentation do not reside in this country, are printed in foreign languages, and are unavailable to common folk such as us. World traveled authors who are multi-lingual seem to dig them out. The footnotes are from arcane sources in said countries. <a href="http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html"></a> </blockquote> What you have stated about the written word Dave (documented proof), it is true that much of it is in other lands, Charles Hanson's wife was a school teacher - belonging to the International Teachers Assn. Many of the items at the Museum of the Fur Trade where purchased from estate sales in other countries through her connection with this group, as well as copies of documentation on different articles related to the fur trade. Example: Members of the ITA (not sure of the correct name) knew of the Hanson's museum, would hear of an estate sale that they may be interested in and contact Charley, in turn he would contact the auctioneer's and get a list of the items, if anything of interest, he would have the wife contact the retired teacher in that area to go to the sale and bid on items that they (the Hanson's) where interested in, put a price they would pay and a figure set for the teachers time. Many small items where purchased that way over the years that are on display now for all of us to enjoy. The same with the documented copies he had in his library, like Dave said the biggest problem was getting them into a language that he could read. Good point Dave, remember the wealthy would come here in the early years to hunt, travel and paint what they saw, and then share with their country men when returning home, some of the best Native American collections are in Europe. Later, Buck Conner Research page: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/conner1/">http://pages.about.com/conner1/</A> _______HRD__ Personal page: <A HREF="http://pages.about.com/buckconner/">http://pages.about.com/buckconner/</A> ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ </html> - --------------D9E24C2C1BBC12C050B7A040-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:36:36 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof Greg, As I stated earlier, I own an original 1814 Common Rifle in 54 cal/flint. I have displayed this rifle at a couple of Rendezvous, in the patch box are the two original tools for pulling balls and patches. These tools have been with the rifle for186+ years and have not been lost, could it be that they are vital to the operation of the weapon?. We belive this gun was shiped to Fort Hall originaly and sold to a local who stored it for all this time, this would make this a period original. A man will take verry good care of his weapon when it means his survival. If I were loading a weapon to hunt I would load the most accurate way possible, but if in haste I would load fast without a patch and so I would not need a ball starter. Just a thought! YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: BrayHaven@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof >Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001, 8:16 AM > >In a message dated 1/27/2001 11:36:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >yrrw@airmail.net writes: > ><< In the final analysis Sir, it's obvius that the "If they'd a had it > they'd a used it" mentality is deeply embeded in you, and frankly I couldn't > give a 'rat's ass' what you think. >> > >Pendleton, >Why must a rational discussion turn into an argument? When someone offers >another opinion, you certainly don't enhance your credibility with statements >like the above also used by the adorned guru of this list (every list seems >to have one). Those posters are usually deferred to as the "resident >experts" who are showered with praise no matter what they say, and I will >defer to them as well here. I learned long ago not to swim upstream. I have >simply been stating my position that more latitude should be given in the >area of accoutrements based on probability in the absence of very scant >documentation.. To say that men threw their cleaning jags (they had used all >their lives) in the river when they got on the flatboat is probably not >realistic. > >For instance: I recall in the 60's "buckskinners" all were convinced that >every mountain man in the fur trade era carried a Hawken rifle. Lately the >"documenters" say there is no documentation that there was ever a Hawken used >in the mountains during this era. This statement shows a lack of common >sense. To say because there is no documentation, it would be incorrect to >take a Hawken to a "regimented event" would probably do more injustice to >history than not. The high probability of Hawken use should suggest their >presence. ( nearly 50 were made during this period and there is documented >commercial interaction between the shop and those heading to the mountains) >The fact that very little is actually written about the guns (of the >trappers), which most agree is the most necessary and prized possesion, can >also suggest that even less (or none) attention in writings was paid to other >trappings. Of course some common sense must be applied here. > >In the strict and ridgid "if it wasn't written, then they didn't use it" >mentality, there is also room for historical error. I've seen some tiny shred >of a mention of something being hailed as a carte blanche justification for >it's widerspread use. If someone wrote in a letter home that they watched >ole Gabe take his constitutional and wipe his ass with a spruce branch, our >intrepid documentarian shouts AHA! : spruce branches become THE preferred >toilet "paper" of the mountain man. > >Greg Sefton > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 11:36:59 EST From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof-Gotta love this list! Imagine this scene: After crossing the Medicine Bow Mountains, the grizzled trapper hits the North Platte and turned south. Traveling through North Park, it wasn't long before he came across an encampment. Several wagons and lots of livestock are scattered about so he anticapates a large brigade of mountaineers. Hey, there's Gabe Bridger! And next to him is good ol' Chatillon. There standing in front of a large tent with green and white stripes! never has this trapper laid eyes on such a canvas lodge, but they had them in the East so it must be okay. Invited in, our friend is amazed at the contents of this mountain home. There is a large brass bedstead that looks mighty comfortable. In the corner is an oval-shaped, steel bath tub. Wouldn't a hot soak feel good! On the table is a complete set of English pewterware spread out with food for a king. It was appaarently cooked on the big iron wood stove along the side-wall. His feet feel the soft French carpet under his mocs and Bridger is quick to point out the India rubber pad underneath. But the piece de resistance is the fur-lined commode in the back. It even has a removable chamber pot! They had them in the East so seeing them in the rockies should be no surprise, eh? And to have the room lit by those alcohol-turpentine burning "Camphene" lamps hanging from the ridge pole, ah, the comforts of civilization. The trapper puts his floppy felt hat on the mahogany chest of drawers and bends down to pet the sleek greyhound lying on the carpet. This is the life! Okay, all you experts. Is this a real scene? All these items existed in the East. Could they have been in the Rockies? Would Bridger and Chatillon have camped in such opulence? Stay tuned ........ Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #720 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.