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hist_text-digest      Saturday, January 27 2001      Volume 01 : Number 719



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá MtMan-List: short starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: short starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: short starters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:18:46 -0500
From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

> Short Starters.......a Treatise of Factual Supposition

Dave,

I agree with the majority of your statement and I have had many of the same
thoughts and read some of the same material.  The problem is finding the
primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs.  I can't
remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before,
but I'm sure it was a German word.

While we're on the subject, does anyone know of any good books on the
colonial jaeger or transitional rifles other than usual ones - Shumway, etc.

Thanks,
Dennis


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:40:34 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Also Mt
> Men by their very nature are (were) independent, inovative and non
conforming
> souls.  I guess my point is that if it was available and there was a
reason
> to use it (such as fire irons, short starters, etc)  it should be
acceptable.
>  Is to me.

Greg,

In some circles it is acceptable. In other circles it is not. No matter what
the item one is talking about. In the RMFtrade, fire irons were not
necessary. Short starters were not necessary. Were they available some where
in the world? Probably. Does that mean they were used in the Rockies by our
stalwart trapper hero? No. Does that mean you can't use them? No (depending
on what group your playing with). Should you use them even though they
probably weren't used by our trapper? Depends on how important it is to you
to "do it the way they did it". If it ain't important to you then go ahead
but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just
like the old timers".

And this business about,  "by their very nature are (were) independent,
innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind
illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in
the face of conventional wisdom of the times? Or perhaps we could talk about
the percentages of trappers that struck out on their own from St. Louie
versus the number that went out with an organized Brigade under the almost
Military leadership of the "top hand, boss, owner, or employer"? And how
many of them didn't conform to "what a trapper was supposed to be like" or
do or how he may treat with his fellows?

From what I have read here just today, they were youngish men trying to make
some money in a tight labor market. When the money ran out, they went on to
do what else they could do whether it was farm or build houses, get into
real-estate or perhaps be a tourist guide or be a government official.
Sounds pretty common to me. Oh yeah, a few got into stealing horses.

Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:48:10 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Capt.
  As per usual you have hit the nail squarely on the head !  Good job !

  I would add that the same held true for the company hunters of the 18th
century.

Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, January 27, 2001 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof



Also Mt
> Men by their very nature are (were) independent, inovative and non
conforming
> souls.  I guess my point is that if it was available and there was a
reason
> to use it (such as fire irons, short starters, etc)  it should be
acceptable.
>  Is to me.

Greg,

In some circles it is acceptable. In other circles it is not. No matter what
the item one is talking about. In the RMFtrade, fire irons were not
necessary. Short starters were not necessary. Were they available some where
in the world? Probably. Does that mean they were used in the Rockies by our
stalwart trapper hero? No. Does that mean you can't use them? No (depending
on what group your playing with). Should you use them even though they
probably weren't used by our trapper? Depends on how important it is to you
to "do it the way they did it". If it ain't important to you then go ahead
but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just
like the old timers".

And this business about,  "by their very nature are (were) independent,
innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind
illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in
the face of conventional wisdom of the times? Or perhaps we could talk about
the percentages of trappers that struck out on their own from St. Louie
versus the number that went out with an organized Brigade under the almost
Military leadership of the "top hand, boss, owner, or employer"? And how
many of them didn't conform to "what a trapper was supposed to be like" or
do or how he may treat with his fellows?

>From what I have read here just today, they were youngish men trying to
make
some money in a tight labor market. When the money ran out, they went on to
do what else they could do whether it was farm or build houses, get into
real-estate or perhaps be a tourist guide or be a government official.
Sounds pretty common to me. Oh yeah, a few got into stealing horses.

Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:57:54 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: short starters

Pendleton said,

    <many riflemen of that period did not
use a patch.>

    What riflemen of what period are you referring to?  The driving of a
bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases.  The myth
is most prevalent with the Jaeger when, in fact, a patch was universally
used.  To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I
have never seen or heard anything to the contrary.
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:18:15 -0700
From: "Buck Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Dennis Earp wrote:

> > Short Starters.......a Treatise of Factual Supposition
>
> Dave,
>
> I agree with the majority of your statement and I have had many of the same
> thoughts and read some of the same material.  The problem is finding the
> primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs.  I can't
> remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before,
> but I'm sure it was a German word.
>
> While we're on the subject, does anyone know of any good books on the
> colonial jaeger or transitional rifles other than usual ones - Shumway, etc.
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

There's a book called "The American Jaegar" not Jaeger with an "e", I will see
if a friend I loaned it to a few years ago still has it, don't remember the
writer.

Dennis Miles has a rifle copied from this book that I sold / traded him a few
years ago, maybe he'll share a picture of "Mrs. Jager".  What do you think
Dennis M.

Later,
Buck Conner
Research page:
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__
Personal page:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:22:44 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: short starters

Fusco wrote:
The driving of a
bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases.

Frank,
  The practice of driving a bare ball down a bore goes back to the days of
the early guns used in the Middle East.  (Pardon me, but I can't remember
what those guns were called.)  The guns of the early to mid Jaeger period
were not always patched.  The practice of using a patched round ball was not
common untill the end of the Jaeger period.

>>To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I
have never seen or heard anything to the contrary.

  There are many accounts of hunters not using a patch, when time was of the
essence.  Have you never done that when shooting in a 'speed match' ?

Pendleton



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:01:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

In a message dated 1/27/2001 4:40:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< If it ain't important to you then go ahead
 but don't go around kidding the newbie into thinking your doing it "just
 like the old timers".

 And this business about,  "by their very nature are (were) independent,
 innovative and non conforming souls." that you mention. Would you mind
 illustraighting some of the innovations these guys came up with that flew in
 the face of conventional wisdom of the times? >>

Gee whiz Capn'  I didn't realize YOU were There!!.  Now I know who can answer
all the questions about waht was used and what wasn't :o).  I think a lot of
this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been
available to peopel headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based on
fact.  IE: "If it's not stated in so & so's journal that they used a short
starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah blah..."

Greg Sefton

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:22:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

In a message dated 1/27/01 3:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I think a lot of  this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use... is
elitist arrogance and not really based on fact.  >>

Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the
same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the
beef?  I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an
artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all.

Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday
life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that
there's no documentation.  Just my $.02.   Barney

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:37:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

> The problem is finding the
>  primary source documentation and/or substantiating those beliefs.  I can't
>  remember what the short starter was called in the 18th century and before,
>  but I'm sure it was a German word.

Dennis,
Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain the documentation do not
reside in this country, are printed in foreign languages, and are unavailable
to common folk such as us.  World traveled authors who are multi-lingual seem
to dig them out.  The footnotes are from arcane sources in said countries.

As Americans, we often rely only on what is available in our country.  On the
other hand, many foreigners visited our country and were more prolific in
writing down and publishing their thoughts.......again, the problem is access.

Dave

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:42:48 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof


> Capt.
>   As per usual you have hit the nail squarely on the head !  Good job !
>
>   I would add that the same held true for the company hunters of the 18th
> century.

Pendleton,

Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here for.
<G> Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail.

Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:44:07 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

> Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here for.
>  <G> Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail.

Capt,
It has been my observation that you are most often the thumb which separates
the two.

Dave

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:48:02 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna

> Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
> O'Donnel fat?
>

It isn't the spoon's fault. It's the knife and fork's.
packratt


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:57:29 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Sir,
If a short start was nessecary then they would have had it, I think they
would have run out of patch material first. I am starting not to care about
such triviality, oh by the way I shoot a "Jager" but then that is not period
anyway or did Bridger have one?
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
>Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001, 4:22 PM
>

>In a message dated 1/27/01 3:02:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< I think a lot of  this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use... is
>elitist arrogance and not really based on fact.  >>
>
>Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the
>same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the
>beef?  I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an
>artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all.
>
>Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday
>life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that
>there's no documentation.  Just my $.02.   Barney
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0600
From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

WY
Go to Google.com and enter a search for "straight razors".  When that =
opens go to the 5th page (41-50 of 11,000 hits) and find a listing for a =
straight razor discussion list and go to the bottom of the page, the =
50th hit, and open and read some excellent instructions on the use of a =
straight razor.  I use a straight razor from time and find it to be a =
satisfying way of shaving.  In addition to the various instructions you =
will find remember this AT ALL TIMES, REPEAT, AT ALL TIMES, BE 100% =
AWARE OF WHERE THE BLADE IS.  It is easy to cut ones self in the most =
unlikely places.  Before I got the hang of it I managed to cut both ear =
lobes and the tip of my nose.  You can scarcely imagine how silly one =
can look with a small square of toilet paper stuck to the tip of ones =
nose with a bright little circle of blood.
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Get a bottle of Florida Water or Bay Rum to complete the effect.  =
Modern dept store cologne or after shave just doesn't work.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Go to Google.com and enter a search for "straight=20
razors".  When that opens go to the 5th page (41-50 of 11,000 hits) =
and=20
find a listing for a straight razor discussion list and go to the =
bottom of=20
the page, the 50th hit, and open and read some excellent instructions on =
the use=20
of a straight razor.  I use a straight razor from time and find it =
to be a=20
satisfying way of shaving.  In addition to the various instructions =
you=20
will find remember this AT ALL TIMES, REPEAT, AT ALL TIMES, BE 100% =
AWARE OF=20
WHERE THE BLADE IS.  It is easy to cut ones self in the most =
unlikely=20
places.  Before I got the hang of it I managed to cut both ear =
lobes and=20
the tip of my nose.  You can scarcely imagine how silly one can =
look with a=20
small square of toilet paper stuck to the tip of ones nose with a bright =
little=20
circle of blood.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Lanney Ratcliff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ps:  Get a bottle of Florida Water or Bay Rum =
to complete=20
the effect.  Modern dept store cologne or after shave just doesn't=20
work.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C08894.F8A0D0C0--


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:40:46 -0600
From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: short starters

I've always wondered what the purpose of the patch was. Does anyone know?

Thanks,
Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Fusco <[e-mail]>
To: Mtn. Man List <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: short starters


> Pendleton said,
>
>     <many riflemen of that period did not
> use a patch.>
>
>     What riflemen of what period are you referring to?  The driving of a
> bare ball down a rifled barrel is a widespread myth in most cases.  The
myth
> is most prevalent with the Jaeger when, in fact, a patch was universally
> used.  To the best of my knowledge, Americans also invariably patched. I
> have never seen or heard anything to the contrary.
> Frank G. Fusco
> Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:49:37 -0600
From: "Ethan Sudman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna

I doubt it had any real chance. You did the right thing.

Sincerely,
Ethan Sudman ([e-mail])

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna


> Hey list,
>
> Let me begin by saying that my dilemna is not is skinning raccoons or any
> other animal...arather, how I just came by the one outside waiting to be
> skinned.  As I was driving to my family farm to get a load to cow manure
> forthe garden, I noted a roadkill coon.  On my way back I stopped to throw
it
> in back of the truck as it looked quite dead and banged up (NOTE: ALWAYS
TEST
> YOUR DEAD ANIMALS WITH A LONG IMPLEMENT QUITE WELL BEFORE PICKING THEM
UP -
> as this one was not quite dead and woke up rather groggily).  It tried to
> move and walked with a severe limp and it was quite obvious it had head
> trauma.  It limped up the bank, back toward the road, toward the bank,
then
> along the road, etc. I guided it with the shovel I had to keep it from
> getting in the road.  Once in the woods I watched it thinking maybe it
would
> get its bearings.  IT did OK on level ground but seemed to have trouble
> walking over sticks and such or clearing basic ground litter.  I have
always
> been taught it is more merciful to put an injured animal out of its misery
> than to let it go on suffering for hours and possibly days.  It was
obvious
> to me that the critter could not climb a tree...and we have a lot of
coyotes
> around here....It would not defend itself from me and was a small coon to
> begin with.  It did not hiss at me of even put up a defense or run...just
> seemed very stoned.  This was the second time I had to look a living
creature
> in the eye from even arm's distance and make a decision to kill or let it
be.
> (The first was a doe with a car-shattered pelvis...easy decision).  Long
> story short..I retrieved my pistol from the truck and shot the coon in the
> neck.  It was a well-placed shot, but I reccomend a head shot if anyone
has
> to do thesame in the future.  MY DILEMNA:  Did the coon really stand a
chance
> to living in the cold and with the coyotes?  Why do I worry about this?
All
> the creatures around us are part of God's creation and I believe it is our
> responsibility to know how to respect them...including knowing when and
when
> not to intervene with them.   I faced the situation once, so I may have to
> face it again AND I just do not know that much about raccoons.  I figured
> some of you may have practical experience in this area.  Well, I have a
> raccoon to skin out and cow manure to spread.
>
> Thanks,
> -C. Kent
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 18:08:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Dennis Fisher <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

> Unfortunately, most of the manuscripts that contain
> the documentation do not
> reside in this country, are printed in foreign
> languages, and are unavailable
> to common folk such as us

I don't think there is any doubt that short starters
existed in the past.  The question was (at least I
thought this was the question) about the use of them
in the rocky mountain fur trade era.  I think I will
pull out my copy of the "Muzzleloading Caploack Rifle"
and see what Ned Roberts had to say on the subject of
patchs and short starters.

Dennis
AMM #612

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:38:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

In a message dated 1/27/2001 6:23:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Whats not based on fact is your acceptance of undocumented items. It's the
 same old argument over and over, and it all comes down to this: where's the
 beef?  I'm not in the AMM, but I can understand that if you can't produce an
 artifact or documentation, you have no proof at all.

 Even if an item may have been so simple to create or commonplace in everyday
 life as to not be recorded in a journal, that doesn't change the fact that
 there's no documentation.  Just my $.02.   Barney >>

Well if there's documentation that it existed back east at the time and the
MM came from there, who's to say the item was never in the mountains?  If we
are to participate in this make believe and act out our fantasy, I can be a
free trapper if I want.  I can have anything in my possibles that was
available at the time and be as correct as anyone.  Capn mentioned "doing it
just like the old timers" OWTE.  Who are we kidding?  We shoot rifles of
modern chrome molybdenum steel made on electric equipment and CNC machines,
we drive to the rendezvous in big A/C rigs and unload our plunder and walk
back from the parking area.  We sleep in tents made of machine woven canvas,
Meat (for the most part) from the market. We have our medications, our Dr
scholls insoles etc.  We haven't had a real scalping or masacre here in FL in
several years at least. On & on etc.
 What bugs me is someone who smugly states that a piece of equipment isn't
"correct" because he didn't see it in any of his books.  Who is to say that I
didn't bring this item with me to the mountains?  There is probably far more
that we DON'T know about that 25 year period than we DO.  Many of the
trappers went, as Lahti says, as part of brigades run by dictatorial tyrants
but many of those became free trappers.   Many also went home after 1 season.
 From what I can tell from my limited Mt Man library (25 volumes or so) is
that a major reason for staying was the fredom from a very controlling and
often puritanical society back east, or the law.  Of course the motive was
also greed.  They were independednt and resourceful (or they didn't live very
long).  I think the burden of proof for whether something that was available
in the period (or before) is appropriate should be on the critic.  He should
be required to proove that item (fire irons, short starters, suspenders or
whatever) never was used in the mountains during the Mt Man era rather than
the person who uses it having to prove it was.  I know some people who simply
quit participating in the organized gatherings (rendezvous) because of stupid
rules imposed by some idealogical bushway who was imposing his personal
opinions on the participants.  To me, if it's period correct, it's fine...
period.

Just my $.02 as well.

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 21:23:41 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Greg wrote:
).  I think a lot of
this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been
available to people headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based
on
fact.  I.E.: "If it's not stated in so & So.'s journal that they used a
short
starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah
blah..."

Mr. Sefton,
  Who is being more arrogant, those who use first person accounts of history
as documentation, or those who choose to ignore them in order to justify
anything they choose to take to their 'porky-do' events ?
Pendleton




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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:32:16 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

How perceptive of you Dave. I have been there now that you mention it. <G>

Capt. Lahti'

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof


> > Maybe it's my soul purpose in life. I think now I know what I am here
for.
> >  <G> Some times I'm the hammer, sometimes the nail.
>
> Capt,
> It has been my observation that you are most often the thumb which
separates
> the two.
>
> Dave
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:35:21 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

>
> Gee whiz Capn'  I didn't realize YOU were There!!.  Now I know who can
answer
> all the questions about waht was used and what wasn't :o).

Greg,

I don't have any illusions that I can answer "all the questions about waht
was used and what wasn't" any better than you. And you certainly haven't
addressed my comments with what you offered in return.

I think a lot of
> this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have
been
> available to peopel headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based
on
> fact.

As you do in the above passage, all you are doing is perpetuating the myth
that there are some "hard core elitist bastards" out there that are keeping
"us" fine folks from enjoying our selves. And that is all I get my dander up
about.

 IE: "If it's not stated in so & so's journal that they used a short
> starter then they must not have, so you can't use one in my camp blah
blah..."

I have no idea how many times someone has tried to explain that not every
event is held for your personal benefit. (I use the term "your" generically
and rhetorically) There are many events held where you can do pretty much as
you wish as long as you look "old timey". And to be perfectly honest, they
have turned into as close to a commercial "Mt.. man" dude ranch experience
as you'll find. They are open to anyone who will pay the price of admission
and at least walk around looking "old timey" even if they have to walk in
from their motor home and not out of their tipi or whatever white canvas
tent. They are called "western/eastern/southeastern/etc. Rendezvous. And
they are fun.  I, along with most of the guys and gals on this list, go to
them. They are a blast!

I've no doubt that you'll run into some self important "expert" at one of
these "public" events that will be uncouth enough to call you on your iron
works or reservation bead work clothing decorations or late 19th Century
Pioneer dress's or "Authentic Plains Indian War shirt" or worse Ghost Dance
Shirt, or what ever. You may even run into some "expert" on the range at the
organized shooting events (all done so you get your moneys worth) who will
try to tell you your short starter is not period authentic or historically
correct. Perhaps he will venture that you should know that mountain men
really didn't throw their axes at a mark at Rendezvous much less their
skinning knives. I'm sure you'll run into all sorts of folks who will walk
right up to you and tell you any number of unauthentic things your doing or
have are unauthentic or that you shouldn't have them.

Well, you just tell him where to shove it! You explain to him that if he
hadn't noticed, your at an event that is open to the public, is not a juried
event where one is required to show ahead of time (before you show up) that
one's gear is well researched and documented for "that particular"
re-enactment of that "historical" event during a very specific time in
history and all the rules said was that you weren't supposed to show up with
anything that wasn't in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840! That IS what the
rules said by the way. How do I know? I helped write some of the first rules
ever posted for such public events held back in the late 70's that tried to
clearly spell out what was and wasn't OK at a strictly primitive pre 1840's
Rendezvous event. Went to a lot of trouble to explain to folks that just
because "if they'da had it, they'da used it" don't cut it. Didn't help much.
They still use the rules but not much attention is paid to them. <G> So what
is a guy gona do?! <G> Getting too old to really give a rip to be honest
about it.

I'll tell ya what I do. I listen to what learned friends and acquaintances
have to say about what their research has turned up. I try to put into
practice as much of it as I can. I go to events where authenticity is not
that big a requirement and try to do it correctly to show the new guy and
his family next door that are just getting started that it can be done
without filling the back of a 3/4 ton 4X4 pickup and a serious U-haul
trailer. I try to gently steer folks away from making the same mistakes I
made. And I keep in mind that at such events "if they look old timey" they
are just fine. And when I take license with the truth of authenticity, I'm
honest about it.

I also go to some serious events where everyone there is expecting to be
prepared to explain why they have such and such or be embarrassed about the
"unauthentic" things they have or can't learn to do without. I do my best to
follow the rules that exist for these special "serious" events so that I
show I am trying and respect the efforts of those who have gone to a lot of
trouble to do even better. Because I show I am trying, no one has ever come
up to me and said, "You can't use that in our camp". And I haven't gone over
to someone and said, " If you can't document this your gona have to leave".
But then these events aren't open to the public and no one has a god given
right to attend if they don't want to play the game according to the rules
anyway. Everyone who got invited knows what they are getting themselves in
to.

But every once in a while I have run into some guy (or gal) who starts
preaching bull shit. What they usually preach is something like, "I think a
lot of
 this criticism of what someone uses or doesn't use (that may well have been
 available to people headed west) is elitist arrogance and not really based
on
 fact.", or worse, "Hell, the Mt. Men were independent, free thinkers with a
penchant for innovative ideas who would have solved all the problems of
doing things contemporary to their times by coming up with all these neat
little trick items like short starters or wrought Iron fire sets, or cool
camp furniture, or candle lanterns, or fancy commercial patch lubes and
cleaning rod fixtures or cleaning chemicals or ........on and on and
on.............." They might have. But for some strange reason they didn't.

I'll tell you true, most of the fun stuff you'll see sold at a modern
Rendezvous today and used at same has been invented in the past 60 years.
That's fine. Folks got money these days and with some exceptions the
Rendezvous of today seem to be held and run for the "Trader's Row" folks.
(not to take anything away from those folks either, they are just good
capitalists filling a niche in a market) But purveyors of fine Authentic
Rendezvous goods? Not for the most part. A few but not most. But it is
profitable to the Organizers and good clean fun. So what the heck.

But I digress. I suppose there are folks out there whom you could fairly
characterize as "elitists" and in their zeal to have every one take their
sport/avocation/hobby as serious as they do, will insist that if your gona
portray such and so, you should do it right. Not what you assume is right
but what you can prove is right. Not what you think would have been the
common sense way of doing things but what was actually historically done.

Bottom line it Rog'! OK, Bottom Line.

If you want to play with them you have to play by their rules. If you don't
want to, then don't try to walk out on their diamond. Lord knows there are
plenty of games going on where it doesn't matter. Your welcome at these
other games "if you play by those rules".

But I suggest to you and anyone else out there in cyber land listening to my
message,  that you do no new person a service by telling them that "By gaud
this is how they must have done it cause it just makes too much sense to
me!". Tell them instead that this is how you do it but you have no proof
that such was ever done. At least be that honest about it. <G>

Now if you look up at the top of this and every post to this list you will
see it is titled " MtMan-List" and if you look down at the bottom of every
post to this list you will see the address is, "hist_text list info:" etc.
We're here to talk about Mt. Men and we're here to talk about history. We're
not here to talk about what they might have done but what they actually did.
No elitists here, just folks trying to sort out the truth of it. Any way you
care to phrase it,  "If they'da had it, they'da used it" ain't the truth.
Respectfully, I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'






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